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Ajani
04-27-2010, 11:51 AM
I've been thinking about the subject of room treatments quite a bit lately, as your room is arguably the most important component in the audio chain, yet is often the most neglected...

I've heard reviewers describe a room as sounding too acoustically"dead" and sucking the life out of music (or something like that)...

"In theory", I'd think that the aim should be to turn the listening room into an anechoic chamber... Thus leaving it up to the speakers and electronics to recreate all the sounds and ambience of the recording (of course the recording would need to have been done in a manner to capture the ambience of the venue)...

I notice that most speakers (and electronics) are not designed to work in an anechoic chamber, but in a typical listening room... Obviously the problem is that there is no such thing as a "typical listening room", so a HiFi system can sound totally different in one room than it does in another...

Mr Peabody
04-27-2010, 12:08 PM
I follow sort of a 50% thing, like treat one wall and leave the other wall alone. Of course, the room set up, windows, doors etc. will need work arounds. There should still be some happy medium. Certain reflections can do some real damage to sound but a "dead" room is no fun either.

frenchmon
04-27-2010, 02:05 PM
Ajani...While living in North Carolina...I first heard the Revels and Marantz Reference in a audioshop that had all the walls covered with carpet and carpet on the floor. The room was not small but not big either. So the sound was not totally dead. But I think in a small room it would be dead.. In my room I have carpet on the floor and another big rug on top of that, and I have a huge rug behind my speakers, and another huge rug on the left side wall. The right side wall has sliding doors that lead to the back yard and behind my sitting position is folding french doors. The room is not as lively as it was before the carpet, and its not totally dead either...it sounds just right. I also had a audio hobbyist buddy over and he really thought the room was perfect. So if you get a chance do some tweaking to get you room sounding like you like it.

Aint it fun being an audio hobbyist?

RGA
04-27-2010, 06:20 PM
Does a violin sound totally different in one room and another? The answer is NO it does not. A speaker that is able to recreate the sound of the actual instruments will make them sound like instruments whether the room is abysmally hopeless or wonderfully ideal.

Rooms affect frequency response which your ear is pretty good at filtering out. You certainly want to try and take out unwanted overblown issues with regards to bass and slap echo. The first thing you do when you decide on your listening room IMO is to clap your hands together where the stereo is going to go and if you hear excessive echo - you have a problem. But even here you can get around it with furniture and where you place your speakers.

The room is important but it's used as an excuse too often to excuse weaker loudspeakers. One set of room treatments may work for some speakers more than others - so you "may" have to change them when new speakers come in. I had to take my room treatments down with the AN's - with my Tannoy and Wharfedale they're better when they go back on the walls.

Good home audio speakers are designed to work in the average home where most users are not going to spend large on room treatments.

Mr Peabody
04-27-2010, 06:36 PM
I guess that's another way to look at it. What do you mean by sounding "different"? Because a violin will certainly sound different when played in your living room than in a concert hall or in your closet.

RGA
04-27-2010, 08:07 PM
You will know it is a violin and if you're good what kind of violin.

In the case of small space large space - speaker designers usually (or should) be designing with the physical volume of the room in mind. Not designing to anechoic chambers which in essence are rooms designed to take the room "out" of the equation as if to simulate a completely open space. Think about how dumb that idea is. In virtually all cases people put speakers in some sort of room - the vast majority a "typical" living room of say 15 X 17 X 8 to 25 X 30 X15 or dimensions somewhere in there. Most of those rooms are squares or rectangles - but essentially the room is "usually" a box.

The speaker that has been designed with the room in mind - or even as part of the design will sound more the same from room to room than a speaker designed in free space and happens to measure well in an anechoic chamber because the speaker was never designed to be operated in a room. So says they, the speaker is flat measuring (in an open field) and it's now up to the owner to fix the room to get it to resemble a no room room.

So for a great deal of speakers spending large on treatments is a must because their designers are slaves to a set of measurements that are currently popular (via Floyd Toole) but unfortunately not a single speaker that is designed in that "Harman international" fashion sounds any good IMO. They sound good for a time, they measure well, but sit an old Tannoy Westminster up beside a Ultima Salon and it's pretty tough to find a single parameter that actually sounds better in favour of the Salon. The endless whitepapers and babble aside - the ears tell it. The Westminsterr has been around for something like 60 years. The Salon? They've already changed it. Why? Things that are obviously "broken" get changed and replaced - things that aren't broken don't need to be fixed. The K-Horn - still going. Not that it's perfect by any means - but it's a helluva lot more perfect than Salons. It is also not surprising that so many of these older speakers are so highly prized. The Salon - is prized by people with more money than ears.

I think nearfield set-ups are very popular now to try and get away from room related issues. But then I tend to notice the lack of driver integration when I have to sit in a nearfield - a reason why I have never liked Thiel speakers. If you sit close - the cohesiveness is some of the very worst around. You have to sit way back which allows the room to be more of a factor and they then lack the tactile dynamics and then sound overly polite (boring).

This was a problem in the Wilson Maxx3 room. The speakers are massive but they need to sit way out into the room to avoid the reflections. But then the integration suffers badly - and for that much money I can't see room treatments fixing it.

bass traps make sense, diffusers make sense, and working to reduce slap echo makes sense. But you can generally determine the "sound" of a speaker quite well - bad room or not. Or the better speaker will probably sound better regardless of the room so long as it was designed for the room dimensions. I know of no speaker designed for a closet.

poppachubby
04-27-2010, 09:17 PM
You have to experiment with your room to find out what will correct the issue. Issues should present themsleves quite apparently.

My listening room suffers from honky bass. Over the course of about 3 months I built 6 DIY bass traps to cope with this.

My H/T room has issues with slap echo. This took a little more work as I had to try a few different solutions. In the end I used a DIY panel and the problem is solved.

I don't think the room is the most important component. It's effects rely on the output of your system, therefore the system is more important. Annoying room issues can be dealt with after the fact.

Ajani
04-27-2010, 09:27 PM
You will know it is a violin and if you're good what kind of violin.

When I refered to setups sounding different depending on the room, I was not talking about a violin no longer sounding like a violin or anything so extreme... Merely that a setup designed to work in a lot of free space will likely sound like sh!+ if placed in too small a room; as bass will overpower the perfomance and if you are too close to the drivers then they won't sound as integrated as they should... Whereas a pair of small nearfield monitors will sound small and wanting in a large room... Also a bright speaker will sound even more obviously so in a room with bare floors and reflective surfaces than in a heavily carpeted room... So frequency extremes, driver integration, volume and scale are the real issues of the room... combined they can crap up the sound of any system...


In the case of small space large space - speaker designers usually (or should) be designing with the physical volume of the room in mind. Not designing to anechoic chambers which in essence are rooms designed to take the room "out" of the equation as if to simulate a completely open space. Think about how dumb that idea is. In virtually all cases people put speakers in some sort of room - the vast majority a "typical" living room of say 15 X 17 X 8 to 25 X 30 X15 or dimensions somewhere in there. Most of those rooms are squares or rectangles - but essentially the room is "usually" a box.

I've never had a listening room that fits within the range of the dimensions you listed... So as I said before: there is no such thing as a "typical" listening room... So designing a speaker to work along the dimensions you listed is no guarantee it will work in other rooms...


The speaker that has been designed with the room in mind - or even as part of the design will sound more the same from room to room than a speaker designed in free space and happens to measure well in an anechoic chamber because the speaker was never designed to be operated in a room. So says they, the speaker is flat measuring (in an open field) and it's now up to the owner to fix the room to get it to resemble a no room room.

Possibly, but the reason for an anechoic design is that a consumer could (if they so desired) create their own anechoic and be guaranteed the results that the manufacturer experienced in the design process... With a speaker designed in the manufacturer's version of a "typical" room, the consumer would not be able to recreate the exact experience of the manufacturer... And instead would have to just tune the sound by ear and hope for the best...


So for a great deal of speakers spending large on treatments is a must because their designers are slaves to a set of measurements that are currently popular (via Floyd Toole) but unfortunately not a single speaker that is designed in that "Harman international" fashion sounds any good IMO. They sound good for a time, they measure well, but sit an old Tannoy Westminster up beside a Ultima Salon and it's pretty tough to find a single parameter that actually sounds better in favour of the Salon. The endless whitepapers and babble aside - the ears tell it. The Westminsterr has been around for something like 60 years. The Salon? They've already changed it. Why? Things that are obviously "broken" get changed and replaced - things that aren't broken don't need to be fixed. The K-Horn - still going. Not that it's perfect by any means - but it's a helluva lot more perfect than Salons. It is also not surprising that so many of these older speakers are so highly prized. The Salon - is prized by people with more money than ears.

So essentially you don't like the Salon and based on that conclude that all the persons (even reviewers with more experience than you) who like the Salon have more money than ears... Perhaps, you should check your ego at the door when you enter HiFi discussions...

Also, since you are from the Peter Q school of "F%#& measurements", I have to question whether you didn't go the Salon audition with your mind already made up before the first note was played....


I think nearfield set-ups are very popular now to try and get away from room related issues. But then I tend to notice the lack of driver integration when I have to sit in a nearfield - a reason why I have never liked Thiel speakers. If you sit close - the cohesiveness is some of the very worst around. You have to sit way back which allows the room to be more of a factor and they then lack the tactile dynamics and then sound overly polite (boring).

This was a problem in the Wilson Maxx3 room. The speakers are massive but they need to sit way out into the room to avoid the reflections. But then the integration suffers badly - and for that much money I can't see room treatments fixing it.

bass traps make sense, diffusers make sense, and working to reduce slap echo makes sense. But you can generally determine the "sound" of a speaker quite well - bad room or not. Or the better speaker will probably sound better regardless of the room so long as it was designed for the room dimensions. I know of no speaker designed for a closet.

Try a pair of headphones if you have a closet... Part of what makes headphones work so well is that they are free of the room (rather like an anechoic chamber)...

While I do agree with you that in practical terms a speaker should be designed to work in a room (any room) without needing endless room treatments, placement and tweaks, I can still see the reason why some manufacturers opt for using anechoic chambers in the design process....

Ajani
04-27-2010, 09:33 PM
You have to experiment with your room to find out what will correct the issue. Issues should present themsleves quite apparently.

My listening room suffers from honky bass. Over the course of about 3 months I built 6 DIY bass traps to cope with this.

My H/T room has issues with slap echo. This took a little more work as I had to try a few different solutions. In the end I used a DIY panel and the problem is solved.

I don't think the room is the most important component. It's effects rely on the output of your system, therefore the system is more important. Annoying room issues can be dealt with after the fact.

I actually have no obvious issues with my current setup... no slap echo, boom, brightness, etc... So I have no idea whether room treatments would improve or crap up the sound....

EDIT: Not all room issues can be corrected after the fact - If your speakers are too big for your room, then you may never be able to get the drivers to sound integrated or the bass in check...

frenchmon
04-27-2010, 11:59 PM
I actually have no obvious issues with my current setup... no slap echo, boom, brightness, etc... So I have no idea whether room treatments would improve or crap up the sound....

EDIT: Not all room issues can be corrected after the fact - If your speakers are too big for your room, then you may never be able to get the drivers to sound integrated or the bass in check...

Room treatments will take care of echos if you have them. I had some echo issues, and reflection issues. What my treatments did was take away those issues. Like I said..the room is not an echo chamber no....reflections which only came with certain songs, I can listen now with out the distractions of echo's or reflections....it seems to make for a more silent back ground as well.

Its possible to not know you have any issues until you put up some room treatment....then you will know you had them....sorta like cables...you never know you need them until you try some that are better.

frenchmon

kexodusc
04-28-2010, 04:10 AM
You will know it is a violin and if you're good what kind of violin.
Hi RGA... I play 3 instruments regularly at home. They all sound very different depending on what room I'm in. A violin sounds like a violin in any room, but doesn't sound the same in any two rooms. Then again, a violin sounds like a violin on a mono clock-radio or cheap $5 ear buds. I have no trouble identifying instruments in fractions of a second on the crappiest Wal-Mart speakers ever sold. I bet you don't either. Doesn't mean it can't sound dramatically different.

Rooms introduce more variance to the sound than most other elements of the sound chain. Unfortunately its the hardest solution to throw money at because it doesn't come packaged in a box to just plug in.

Room acoustic considerations include decisions on speaker size, speaker placement, etc. Far greater impact than the differences I've heard between brand x or brand y's electronics in all but the most lopsided comparisons.


The speaker that has been designed with the room in mind - or even as part of the design will sound more the same from room to room than a speaker designed in free space and happens to measure well in an anechoic chamber because the speaker was never designed to be operated in a room. So says they, the speaker is flat measuring (in an open field) and it's now up to the owner to fix the room to get it to resemble a no room room. I agree too much emphasis is placed on FR and staying within a given range (+/-2 dB or whatever). Most people would be surprised at their in-room FR's. I don't agree with your assumption that manufacturers are designing for no room and then telling people to treat their rooms to produce that effect though.
Hasn't been my experience at least but I haven't heard every Harman speaker either. My understanding of most design processes is that the anechoic measurement is necessary to identify what colorations the speaker is applying at which frequencies, but even Harman companies voice their speakers in rooms according to what their fans like. They obviously take in room measurements too when they print their padded bass response stats. Might not be what I like as I'm not a big fan of most of their brands, but hey, some people like it.



Bass traps make sense, diffusers make sense, and working to reduce slap echo makes sense. But you can generally determine the "sound" of a speaker quite well - bad room or not. Or the better speaker will probably sound better regardless of the room so long as it was designed for the room dimensions.
Now I'm not sure what you're saying? LOL, bass traps, diffusers, and panels to reduce slap echo are ok, but room treatment is overrated?

I would disagree that the better speaker will sound better regardless of the room. If we're comparing $200 to $5000 speakers, yeah probably, though I find echo quite offensive and almost unbearable. I've been in some hi end hifi stores that have bare walls and seem to think that's fine so I guess there's some degree of preference and subjective tolerance involved. I'd gladly give up a bit of refinement in the speaker to actually be able to hear a cleaner, less invading sound. And when comparing two competitive $5000 speakers in different rooms...all bets are off.

Geez, ask any musician in any town and he'll tell you which venues he likes playing in and which ones sound like ass. Same instruments, same performer, but totally different sound experiences. I doubt any arrogant speaker designer would be able to convince him his instrument sounds the same regardless of the venue!

When companies downplay room acoustics when peddling their gear, I can think of no more shameful or dishonest way for them to say they aren't in the game because they just don't understand it or can't make as much money at it as their other products. Most of the good ones have their own rooms treated.

RGA
04-28-2010, 07:03 AM
I think I explained myself poorly here. I don't have time to go into it now but I do not think room correction is unimportant it is. You need to have a room that suits the speaker. I auditioned a PMC TB1 in two rooms and one was far too big for it and it sounded thin and unimpressive. In the smaller room that it was designed for it sounded quite good. Getting the right room volume or close is the first step. Getting rid of obvious room related problems (slap echoes etc) is the next step.

That said it's used as an excuse that with treatment you will turn a frog into a prince and it's just not the case IMO. You can usually tell if an anomaly is coming from the room or the loudspeakers.

As for Revel - I heard those kind of designs 10 years before I ever heard of Audio Note so that doesn't fly. My reference has shifted in the last 2 decades so I enjoy hearing a very similar sound from the AN E plopping them in corners - whether the room has nothing on the walls and a couch, whether the floors are carpeted and 8 feet or whether the floors are bare, with vaulted ceilings and furniture. The sound is strikingly clear open and dynamic regardless of treatment. And they never say "f" the measurements - they are slaves to measurements more than most.

poppachubby
04-28-2010, 07:23 AM
EDIT: Not all room issues can be corrected after the fact - If your speakers are too big for your room, then you may never be able to get the drivers to sound integrated or the bass in check...

Right, that was my point. The system is more important than the room. The components have to be selected properly.

poppachubby
04-28-2010, 07:29 AM
You can usually tell if an anomaly is coming from the room or the loudspeakers.

Bingo. If there is uncertainty, experimenting will sort it out quickly.

Ajani if you want to expand your knowledge and understanding, here is where I started. LOTS of reading...

http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Accessories/Acoustic_Room_Treatments/Acoustic_Room_Treatment_Articles/

blackraven
04-28-2010, 08:42 AM
If every one was dead in the Hi Fi room then why would you worry about the sound!:nonod:

poppachubby
04-28-2010, 09:10 AM
If every one was dead in the Hi Fi room then why would you worry about the sound!:nonod:

Haha. hey Raven, so a Priest and a Rabbi walk into a HI-Fi room. The Priest says to the Rabbi....

Ajani
04-28-2010, 09:28 AM
I think I explained myself poorly here. I don't have time to go into it now but I do not think room correction is unimportant it is. You need to have a room that suits the speaker. I auditioned a PMC TB1 in two rooms and one was far too big for it and it sounded thin and unimpressive. In the smaller room that it was designed for it sounded quite good. Getting the right room volume or close is the first step. Getting rid of obvious room related problems (slap echoes etc) is the next step.

That said it's used as an excuse that with treatment you will turn a frog into a prince and it's just not the case IMO. You can usually tell if an anomaly is coming from the room or the loudspeakers.

I agree... A crappy speaker will still sound like crap, regardless of how much you treat the room (it will sound far less terrible with proper treatment, but it will still sound terrible)...


As for Revel - I heard those kind of designs 10 years before I ever heard of Audio Note so that doesn't fly. My reference has shifted in the last 2 decades so I enjoy hearing a very similar sound from the AN E plopping them in corners - whether the room has nothing on the walls and a couch, whether the floors are carpeted and 8 feet or whether the floors are bare, with vaulted ceilings and furniture. The sound is strikingly clear open and dynamic regardless of treatment. And they never say "f" the measurements - they are slaves to measurements more than most.

OK... So then I'll accept that you just don't like the sound of Revel - nothing wrong with that at all... I would describe Revel's sound as "spectacularly unspectacular"... It's a speaker line about balance: almost every HiFi brand I can think of seems to focus on specific strengths - whether PRAT (Naim, etc), Mid-Range (countless tubes), Detail (headphones, small monitors from so many brands), Soundstage (Totem, etc), Bass (Krell, etc)... Revel is about doing all things in balance, so you can always name countless brands that will "destroy" a Revel speaker in this area or the other, but those speakers also fall down in specific areas (where the Revels do not).... That balanced sound is loved by some persons but completely and utterly dissapointing for others....

If AN are slaves to measurements then they have something in common with Revel... (I'm sure I've seen a couple of interviews with Peter Q in which he urges persons to forget the measurements and listen - which really comes off as if he doesn't regard measurements at all)...

Ajani
04-28-2010, 09:43 AM
Right, that was my point. The system is more important than the room. The components have to be selected properly.

Huh? I think we are talking about the same thing... just calling it different names... You are talking about selecting the right equipment to suit your room and hence saying the system is more important... I am also talking about selecting the right equipment to suit the room and saying that the room is the most important...

So the room must be my first consideration when selecting equipment, therefore I regard it as the most important factor... Then additional room treatments are good for correcting obvious problems with the room (and possibly some ones that are not obvious)....

GMichael
04-28-2010, 10:35 AM
I believe that balance is the key to everything. To say that one thing is most important is a watse of energy. The chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If you skimp on any one thing, you won't get the most out of the rest.

poppachubby
04-28-2010, 10:48 AM
Huh? I think we are talking about the same thing... just calling it different names... You are talking about selecting the right equipment to suit your room and hence saying the system is more important... I am also talking about selecting the right equipment to suit the room and saying that the room is the most important...

So the room must be my first consideration when selecting equipment, therefore I regard it as the most important factor... Then additional room treatments are good for correcting obvious problems with the room (and possibly some ones that are not obvious)....

Are the Revel speakers you want suited to your room? How can you really know until they are sitting in it? You can't. I think aside from glaringly large reasons, like LaScalas in a den, you can't let a room limit your choices.

Buy what you dig, correct accordingly.

After seeing photos of your space, I'm surprised you have no reflection issues. Looks like an echo proned room to me, same as my H/T room.

Ajani
04-28-2010, 10:52 AM
I believe that balance is the key to everything. To say that one thing is most important is a watse of energy. The chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. If you skimp on any one thing, you won't get the most out of the rest.

You sound like you should be working at Revel... LOL...

Seriously though, I actually agree, you shouldn't ignore anything in the signal chain... However, some things will require more attention than others.... And something being "important" doesn't mean you have to spend more money on it than other areas...

That's an issue I've long had with "source first" advocates... Just because the source is critical, doesn't mean that you must spend the most money on it.... Same thing for the room.... I wouldn't spend more money on room treatments than speakers (unless my room was totally unsuitable for playing any kind of music in - though I'd more likely just pick a different room to set up my hifi in).... A preamp is a critical component and can easily kill the sound of a good system, but many persons use cheap, single input passive pre's in expensive systems (if I'm not mistaken, E-Stat uses an approx $300 DIY passive pre with approx $30K speakers - so if you were to judge his priorities based solely on cost you'd conclude that a pre is unimportant)....

rob_a
04-28-2010, 11:01 AM
Its fung shway :rolleyes5: , a balanced room clear of objects with a centered audio system will help project the music evenly with less interference of the sound waves. In my opinion, a "dead" room is not the goal, but more of a worm open room with some ambiance. Use some sound damping in areas that has harsh echo or that lets in outside noise. The uses of soft wood helps to let the sound open up and flow freely through your listening room and some carpeting in some areas will help create a lively listing space.

Most concert halls and sound studios are not stuffed with sound dampening material; but with minimal dampening they use the natural acoustics of the room. Now I know your room probably was not designed will audio in mind but a few tricks and mods and you’re doing pretty good.

Ajani
04-28-2010, 11:10 AM
Are the Revel speakers you want suited to your room? How can you really know until they are sitting in it? You can't. I think aside from glaringly large reasons, like LaScalas in a den, you can't let a room limit your choices.

Buy what you dig, correct accordingly.

Perfect fit is not something you can know until you try, but as you said in the LaScala example, some things clearly will not work... So you must be realistic about what you intend to put in your room (unless of course you have a great return policy from your dealer).... My Second listening room was only 9ft by 11ft (with boom and was an echo chamber), so I would never have put a pair of Revel F12s in there... Only small floorstanders or bookshelfs made sense in that room...


After seeing photos of your space, I'm surprised you have no reflection issues. Looks like an echo proned room to me, same as my H/T room.

I have a large sofa and two side chairs at the listening position.

Thick drapes on the windows behind the listening position.

5ft from the right speaker is the entry door opening to the front porch, so I usually have that open, then thick drapes along most of the remaining sidewall by the right speaker (where any first reflections would occur).

Essentially no wall by the left speaker as the living room opens to the kitchen (so about 17ft from the left speaker to the kitchen wall/rear door - which is usually also open)....

The ceiling is wooden - about 20ft above the speakers and slopes to 12 ft above the listening position.

So other than the tile floor (which I'll probably just throw a rug on eventually to see if it improves the sound and for aesthetic reasons), there's not a whole lot that should cause boom or echo...

RGA
04-28-2010, 06:15 PM
If AN are slaves to measurements then they have something in common with Revel... (I'm sure I've seen a couple of interviews with Peter Q in which he urges persons to forget the measurements and listen - which really comes off as if he doesn't regard measurements at all)...

I would be very careful here with what Peter is saying for consumers to do versus what he and his team actually do when they make the gear. I met Peter at CES and he is a fascinating guy to talk to but measurements are critical in order to reproduce what it is he wants to be reproduced. They design it according to their contrast method which requires a ton of listening and systematically trying every part with different parts and going back and deciding by ear what they're trying to do - and then reproduce that.

The tall 5 driver with several woofers and a metal tweeter in a thin deep cabinet tend to always present some issues for me. A cupped midrange, box resonances, driver cohesion which allows for treble directionality to be glaring, and out of step sound where it is physically all coming from different places.

The Wilson Sophia had this issue. I would hear the woofer, the midrange and the tweeter in different spots - always sounded like a speaker - good drivers - put out nice sounds and you could pick apart the recording in a way - but fatiguing and the Krell Mark Levinson front end hardly helped matters. The new Sophia and the cheaper but IMO better Rogue Audio gear managed to get the treble and midrange in step - the woofer still sounded a hair behind - better but not bang on. But it did a much better job than the MAXX3 at sounding coherent and getting away from the "this is a speaker" sensation.

So it's possible I would prefer a smaller 2 way Revel where the cohesion might be better. The bigger ones definitely make me understand why people go to single driver and panels.

poppachubby
04-28-2010, 08:22 PM
(if I'm not mistaken, E-Stat uses an approx $300 DIY passive pre with approx $30K speakers - so if you were to judge his priorities based solely on cost you'd conclude that a pre is unimportant)....

He runs his CDP straight into his amp. He also uses a Bellari to run straight into an amp, and avoid an active pre. His goal is minimal.

Ajani
04-28-2010, 09:44 PM
He runs his CDP straight into his amp..

Using a homemade passive with the DACT mono attenuators...


He also uses a Bellari to run straight into an amp, and avoid an active pre. His goal is minimal.

Yes, his goal is minimal, and it shows that you can sometimes spend small amounts on important elements in the chain but still achieve great results...

poppachubby
04-29-2010, 04:24 AM
Using a homemade passive with the DACT mono attenuators...



I'm not sure if he uses the passive pre anymore. His garage is all done directly. He uses an SP9 for vinyl in his main system but I think his CDP has variable control. Perhaps I am confusing his garage CDP with his main.

I can't imagine not having my EICO in the chain. The tubed pre makes things sound lovely and quite frankly, I don't care what the negative effects are at this point.

Ralph is on a different trip, but then again he has gear that is 10 times the fidelity of mine. Perhaps when I am at his level of experience, my goals will change. In the mean time I will pick his brain for guidance and so should a few others here.

Ajani
04-29-2010, 05:55 AM
I'm not sure if he uses the passive pre anymore. His garage is all done directly. He uses an SP9 for vinyl in his main system but I think his CDP has variable control. Perhaps I am confusing his garage CDP with his main.

I can't imagine not having my EICO in the chain. The tubed pre makes things sound lovely and quite frankly, I don't care what the negative effects are at this point.

Ralph is on a different trip, but then again he has gear that is 10 times the fidelity of mine. Perhaps when I am at his level of experience, my goals will change. In the mean time I will pick his brain for guidance and so should a few others here.

Yep, I think the variable control is on his garage CDP....

As for the EICO pre; what matters is how it sounds to you.... Even many SS fans like using Tube Pre's....

Mr Peabody
04-29-2010, 05:02 PM
How's that song go....
Hey now, hey now.... eico, eico... I say...... something like that.

Nasir
05-12-2010, 04:22 PM
I´ve spent the last 6 months trying to " correct " the listening room by DIY attempts and reading a lot of articles to point of crying and come to the following basic conclusions but fortunately so without spending a lot of cash:
First and foremost, any treatment depends on whether you have an Electrostatic loudspeaker (ESL) or a cone one as the ESL and other planars are dipoles having a figure of 8 radiation pattern as opposed to a cardioid radiation pattern for the cone speakers (boxed not the open baffle variety ).
The second lesson was learn t more painfully and that is NOT to have a very small sweet spot as I tended to tweak the speaker positions every other day because they did´nt sound the same as the day before in the sense that the solid center image tended to move around the center line between the speakers. Some may swear otherwise, but I have to share the sofa with family ( wife and cats ) none of whom will budge an inch if they get there before me. So, all the testing was done with just myself sitting right in the middle! Hence, more than the usual toe-in to provide a wider sweet spot and you won´t need to nail your listening chair to the floor nor glue your headrest to the wall behind you lest you don´t sit in the same spot to within a couple of inches!
The cheapest noticeable room correction was provided by placing a big roll (heavy pillow bought from IKEA ) behind my head. This removed unwanted reflections which gave the impression that certain sounds seemed to be coming from behind me and these were more evident in the late hours when everything is quite and my favorite bedtime double dose of CSI oldies is aired on TV. The sound effects are truly amazing.
The desired speaker heights from experience matches everybody´s suggestion bar none, so far: For ESLs the middle of the speaker at ear level. the same applying to the twitters for cone speakers, this being especially important for the bookshelf sized speakers where the use of speaker stands is justified.
I started with my ESLs leaning back as supplied, then raised the back to make them parallel to the walls, but the best result was achieved by raising their back even further so as to lean them further forward.
Also used rolled up carpets behind the speakers, not to mention different shaped reflecting objects ( incidentally, I even tried pipes and on one occasion even lined up the cooking pots ) behind the speakers without any arguable difference just in case I had to present my case in the divorce court as to why the pots were not to be found in the kitchen as is the case in any normal home.
When my favorite cat died ( a good sport, always ready for a bit of slap and wrestle ) I built 3 small to average sized diffusers as therapy. Believe me, one needs a lot of motivation to cut up the wood to correct sizes and glue them in place, so my advice is to buy them ready made or you probably will give up halfway! Now, diffusers are a different beast: the only conclusive argument I can provide for them is that the results obtained with test tones was that around their design frequencies, the loudness was more or less unaffected and that for those frequencies it was not easy to localize the speaker. At the moment, my setup is without the diffusers as I would need to build a second matching set for use behind the second speaker.
Hope this has been informative to those who wish to embark on a room treatment journey.... Best of luck!!

Ajani
05-12-2010, 04:55 PM
I´ve spent the last 6 months trying to " correct " the listening room by DIY attempts and reading a lot of articles to point of crying and come to the following basic conclusions but fortunately so without spending a lot of cash:
First and foremost, any treatment depends on whether you have an Electrostatic loudspeaker (ESL) or a cone one as the ESL and other planars are dipoles having a figure of 8 radiation pattern as opposed to a cardioid radiation pattern for the cone speakers (boxed not the open baffle variety ).
The second lesson was learn t more painfully and that is NOT to have a very small sweet spot as I tended to tweak the speaker positions every other day because they did´nt sound the same as the day before in the sense that the solid center image tended to move around the center line between the speakers. Some may swear otherwise, but I have to share the sofa with family ( wife and cats ) none of whom will budge an inch if they get there before me. So, all the testing was done with just myself sitting right in the middle! Hence, more than the usual toe-in to provide a wider sweet spot and you won´t need to nail your listening chair to the floor nor glue your headrest to the wall behind you lest you don´t sit in the same spot to within a couple of inches!
The cheapest noticeable room correction was provided by placing a big roll (heavy pillow bought from IKEA ) behind my head. This removed unwanted reflections which gave the impression that certain sounds seemed to be coming from behind me and these were more evident in the late hours when everything is quite and my favorite bedtime double dose of CSI oldies is aired on TV. The sound effects are truly amazing.
The desired speaker heights from experience matches everybody´s suggestion bar none, so far: For ESLs the middle of the speaker at ear level. the same applying to the twitters for cone speakers, this being especially important for the bookshelf sized speakers where the use of speaker stands is justified.
I started with my ESLs leaning back as supplied, then raised the back to make them parallel to the walls, but the best result was achieved by raising their back even further so as to lean them further forward.
Also used rolled up carpets behind the speakers, not to mention different shaped reflecting objects ( incidentally, I even tried pipes and on one occasion even lined up the cooking pots ) behind the speakers without any arguable difference just in case I had to present my case in the divorce court as to why the pots were not to be found in the kitchen as is the case in any normal home.
When my favorite cat died ( a good sport, always ready for a bit of slap and wrestle ) I built 3 small to average sized diffusers as therapy. Believe me, one needs a lot of motivation to cut up the wood to correct sizes and glue them in place, so my advice is to buy them ready made or you probably will give up halfway! Now, diffusers are a different beast: the only conclusive argument I can provide for them is that the results obtained with test tones was that around their design frequencies, the loudness was more or less unaffected and that for those frequencies it was not easy to localize the speaker. At the moment, my setup is without the diffusers as I would need to build a second matching set for use behind the second speaker.
Hope this has been informative to those who wish to embark on a room treatment journey.... Best of luck!!

Thanks for your thoughts - I agree on not having too narrow a sweetspot (unless you have a dedicated man cave for your stereo, that only you use)...

When you say your favourite cat died and you made diffusers, I hope you don't mean that you used the dead cat in that DIY project :shocked:

Nasir
05-12-2010, 05:17 PM
LOL, no, if I had to use the cat in my DIY project, it would be stuffed and poised to use my Final Sound 300i ESLs as a scratching post, which the reason I never bought the Magnapans. That cat completely destroyed a huge 30cm full range cone speaker before I had the chance to connect it up or make a worthwhile project and since then I half expected to come home to find my speakers especially the subwoofer reduced to ribbons ( not Magnapan ribbons! )

Ajani
05-12-2010, 05:38 PM
LOL, no, if I had to use the cat in my DIY project, it would be stuffed and poised to use my Final Sound 300i ESLs as a scratching post, which the reason I never bought the Magnapans. That cat completely destroyed a huge 30cm full range cone speaker before I had the chance to connect it up or make a worthwhile project and since then I half expected to come home to find my speakers especially the subwoofer reduced to ribbons ( not Magnapan ribbons! )

Very nice speakers!!! The Final Sound 400i is one of my 3 favourite speakers... A shame they went out of business (If I remember correctly)....

Mr Peabody
05-12-2010, 05:44 PM
Good post Nasir. I think after the first attack of my gear kitty would have under gone front paw de-claw.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-13-2010, 11:23 AM
I guess I am going to disagree with many here, as I guess I have been listening to John Dunlavy too much. I believe that a loudspeaker must exibit a flat response before going into any listening room, which is why I believe they should be designed in a anechoic chamber, and then tweaked by ear. Loudspeaker should not(IMO) be designed in listening rooms, as they vary way too much from one location to another. Once you start with a speaker with a flat response, then once you install it is a room, the only real influence that will startle the ear, is room resonances in the lower bass. Reflections in higher frequencies are so dense, the ear filters them out.

A speaker that has a flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, will usually have frequency response issues only in the bass frequencies, as that is the frequencies with the longest wavelengths, and therefore the most interactions with the walls in the room. Depending on how close that speaker is to the walls will determine the amount of boost per octave the speaker will experience. It is predictable and equalizeable as well. They will generally keep their relatively tight frequency response in the mid and high frequencies, which are the most critical frequencies to the ear. These frequencies are also easily treated with acoustical treatments.

Speakers designed in rooms will not have a flat overall frequency response in all rooms, but will only have a flat response within the room it was designed for. Rooms are totally unpredictable in how a speaker will interact with it.

With all of that said, a great sounding room will be a equal balance of absorption, reflection and diffusion. This kind of room must be tailored to the format that is predominately played in the room(i.e stereo or multichannel).

This room will have a combination of acoustical AND electrical correction to properly balance the speakers within the room, not one or the other.

Ajani
05-13-2010, 07:40 PM
I guess I am going to disagree with many here, as I guess I have been listening to John Dunlavy too much. I believe that a loudspeaker must exibit a flat response before going into any listening room, which is why I believe they should be designed in a anechoic chamber, and then tweaked by ear. Loudspeaker should not(IMO) be designed in listening rooms, as they vary way too much from one location to another. Once you start with a speaker with a flat response, then once you install it is a room, the only real influence that will startle the ear, is room resonances in the lower bass. Reflections in higher frequencies are so dense, the ear filters them out.

A speaker that has a flat frequency response in an anechoic chamber, will usually have frequency response issues only in the bass frequencies, as that is the frequencies with the longest wavelengths, and therefore the most interactions with the walls in the room. Depending on how close that speaker is to the walls will determine the amount of boost per octave the speaker will experience. It is predictable and equalizeable as well. They will generally keep their relatively tight frequency response in the mid and high frequencies, which are the most critical frequencies to the ear. These frequencies are also easily treated with acoustical treatments.

Speakers designed in rooms will not have a flat overall frequency response in all rooms, but will only have a flat response within the room it was designed for. Rooms are totally unpredictable in how a speaker will interact with it.

With all of that said, a great sounding room will be a equal balance of absorption, reflection and diffusion. This kind of room must be tailored to the format that is predominately played in the room(i.e stereo or multichannel).

This room will have a combination of acoustical AND electrical correction to properly balance the speakers within the room, not one or the other.

Yep, the whole point of designing in an anechoic chamber is to maintain consistency...

Poultrygeist
05-16-2010, 04:02 AM
Can't explain it but I love the sound of speakers and sub on my 11X17 screen porch. The speakers are placed in the open corners and my sweet spot is opposite them and mid way of the house wall side. My sub is located in the right rear corner a foot from the house wall. For the time being I'm neglecting all my other gear except what I can drag out to the porch. The "free air sound" for me has gotten so addictive.

Nasir
05-16-2010, 01:14 PM
YES, NO walls behind the speakers! Believe me, I have tried suggesting that we break down the walls behind the speakers ( leading into the kitchen) and hoping that she is not paying attention to what I am saying and will nod her head in agreement!! I suppose I haven´t been married long enough to be ignored, yet! I think she started to pay more attention to what I murmur, ever since she figured out that I offer to share my wine ONCE and ONLY ONCE and usually when she is distracted!
So, Poultrygeist, could you please describe the differences a little bit more? You must have tolerant neighbors too, mind you I can´t complain about what I get away with too!

Mr Peabody
05-16-2010, 03:37 PM
Music does seem to sound good outside but I've never had a "high end" system outside. That would be something.

Poultrygeist
05-17-2010, 05:30 AM
Before my screen porch was added I had the same outdoor speakers mounted on the side of the house, six feet up and aimed toward the backyard. The sound was totally wasted in all that open space. I hated that sound and rarely listened to them. When the porch was completed and I placed them in the open corners on stands opposite the house wall I was shocked at the huge improvement. With the addition of the Marcato outdoor sub I now get decent bass to go with very nice upper frequencies. The sound could be described as light and open and not unlike some of my OB experiments. I love the uncluttered airiness of this inexpensive system. With the speakers pointed at me and not toward the backyard the neighbors can barely hear them at all. I tried an OB set up on the porch but it suffered as OB's sound best in a room. With OB the room is their box. Just for the heck of it I've auditioned several other indoor speakers on the porch along with the cheap outdoor Insignia NS-E2111. These include a pair of Athena AS-B1's, the curved side Insignia NS-B2111 and a pair of Tekton 4.5's. The only sealed speaker of the group is the cheap outdoor Insignia and crazy as it seems I tend to prefer it's sound in this application with the Athena a close second. As time permits I'll be trying some others such as a pair of Aerial Model 5 ( sealed ) ADS L710 ( also sealed ), and some 1970's KLH's and Frazier Monte Carlos . Maybe a ported speaker needs a wall more than a sealed speaker? Anyway it's fun driving my wife crazy dragging all this stuff out on the porch. All she can say is "they all sound good to me" or "I don't understand why you have to keep switching things around" ?. Nothing like a little "whine" and cheese on the back porch.

Hey Nasir, open a full bottle and drink faster than she does. She'll think it's sharing. Works for me.

Nasir
05-17-2010, 01:42 PM
Poultrygeist,
I get a bit shaky after the wine bottle has passed the halfway mark!! And while I think that I am still sober: A certain amount of reflected sound energy seems to make a big difference in soundstage, as I found from experience.

Poultrygeist
05-18-2010, 04:03 AM
If you want a big sound stage stay off the porch or the great out of doors. Not much reflected sound outside but lovely point source and the sub does take full advantage of the floor and back wall.

I guess I find it a refreshing change as my indoor OBs put out a huge sound stage. With the OBs playing I can spin around a few times with eyes shut and not be able to point to them.