speaker wire!

[errol van]

I have monster cable and regular store bought wire and there's no difference in sound weather music or movies! So what's the big deal about $100 per foot cable!

I have monster cable and regular store bought wire and there's no difference in sound weather music or movies! So what's the big deal about $100 per foot cable!

[Ajani]

You purchased $100 per ft monster cable? What equipment did you use it with?

In Audio/HT there is a lot of snake-oil/rip-offs... Cabling often (not always) falls into the rip-off category... I've yet to hear a difference between the freebie red and white RCA cables you get when you buy a dvd player and entry level cable from "audiophile" cable brands... However, I do own such entry level cables as I prefer the build quality (they are more durable than the freebie red and whites)...

Eventually I'll try some highly regarded affordable cable such as Blue Jeans to see if they make a difference.... But generally I suggest leaving the purchase of expensive cables to persons with suitably expensive equipment....

[LeRoy]

I too wonder about $100.00/ft cable of any kind...but that kind of skepticism does not mean that cables don't make a difference because they can IF you can find the right cable to transfer the signal with a quality result at an affordable price point.

It took me years of listening and experimenting before I found the cable I had to have and at the price I thought was fair. Unfortunately, most dealers won't allow you to take home cable to see if it works for you or your system.

Are you looking to replace your current cables?

[Mr Peabody]

LeRoy, in most instances, that is not true. Any reputable cable dealer has loaner samples they lend out and at the very least almost all offer a 30 day no questions return.

If one can't hear any difference then don't spend the money but keep an open mind to try different cables occasionally. Especially if a source or main downstream component is upgraded. I personally hear the differences in certain cables. Budget has kept me to a certain level and $100.00 a foot is out of my budget.

Another point that should be considered is Monster is a far cry from being a good example of a higher end cable. You have to shop some place other than Best Buy. I would recommend Bluejeans as a good entry point, then Transparent, Kimber or Cardas. Cardas is very good about being able to change sound characteristics of their cable. Hence, the Golden will sound much different from the Neutral. Siltech is very good as well if you can find a dealer.

Ajani, if you've tried quality RCA's at all I am really surprised you hear no difference when using your headphones. Frequency response differences are easy to hear but another ovbious give away is how the sound stage appears through the headphones. As a headphone user I hope this makes sense but some cables will put sound more above your head and beyond boundaries where others may seem smaller or even more in front of you. I believe you ripped your music in Lossless but if not that will be a clear henderence to depicting any difference in sound at all whether headphones or whatever. I hope you intend to try at least BJC to do a comparison. When you get the Revels I also hope you will at least try some different speaker cable. From the way you talk I'd highly recommend Transparent for you.

[GMichael]

I still say that if you have a $10,000 system, it would be foolish to use $20 worth wire.
But if you have a $1000 system it would be equaly foolish to spend $2000 on wire.

[Ajani]

I still say that if you have a $10,000 system, it would be foolish to use $20 worth wire.
But if you have a $1000 system it would be equaly foolish to spend $2000 on wire.

Exactly! What Monster and many other cable brands have done is to convince persons with inexpensive systems to spend large amounts on cables... Odds are that those persons won't notice any real improvement in sound from doing so... However, someone with a far higher quality (and probably expensive) setup might well reap the benefits of improved cabling...

[Ajani]

LeRoy, in most instances, that is not true. Any reputable cable dealer has loaner samples they lend out and at the very least almost all offer a 30 day no questions return.

If one can't hear any difference then don't spend the money but keep an open mind to try different cables occasionally. Especially if a source or main downstream component is upgraded. I personally hear the differences in certain cables. Budget has kept me to a certain level and $100.00 a foot is out of my budget.

Another point that should be considered is Monster is a far cry from being a good example of a higher end cable. You have to shop some place other than Best Buy. I would recommend Bluejeans as a good entry point, then Transparent, Kimber or Cardas. Cardas is very good about being able to change sound characteristics of their cable. Hence, the Golden will sound much different from the Neutral. Siltech is very good as well if you can find a dealer.

Ajani, if you've tried quality RCA's at all I am really surprised you hear no difference when using your headphones. Frequency response differences are easy to hear but another ovbious give away is how the sound stage appears through the headphones. As a headphone user I hope this makes sense but some cables will put sound more above your head and beyond boundaries where others may seem smaller or even more in front of you. I believe you ripped your music in Lossless but if not that will be a clear henderence to depicting any difference in sound at all whether headphones or whatever. I hope you intend to try at least BJC to do a comparison. When you get the Revels I also hope you will at least try some different speaker cable. From the way you talk I'd highly recommend Transparent for you.

There is only one cable that I can use with my headphones; a digital cable between the Squeezebox and the Benchmark DAC1... And though I've not heard any real difference between a proper Audioquest V-DMX Digital Cable, Audioquest G-Snake RCA cables and freebie Red and White, it's hard to make a judgement on that one because of the excellent jitter rejection of the DAC1... Possibly with a different DAC, the differences would be noticeable...

With my previous system (Mid-Fi by High End standards) of a Rotel Amp/Pre with Mission Towers, I couldn't hear any difference Between Audioquest G-Snake cables and freebie red and whites... And the G-Snake are actually the second cables in Audioquest's lineup.. the cheapest are the Alpha Snake... So I'd expect to hear a difference between G-Snake and freebies in my Rotel/Mission setup.... But I've stuck with the G-Snakes because they are more durable than red and white and frankly look a lot nicer....

I definitely will replace them with some Blue Jeans (when I get the Revels) to see if the issue is just that entry level Audioquest is crap....

[Poultrygeist]

I use these home made Whitelightning Moonshines aka Walmart Patio Cord by Woods which costs around $7.00 for 40 ft.

Before I cut the ends off for speaker cables I break them in with my weed whacker.


http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/whitelightning/moonshine.html

[LeRoy]

LeRoy, in most instances, that is not true. Any reputable cable dealer has loaner samples they lend out and at the very least almost all offer a 30 day no questions return.

Good to hear from you Mr. P. Glad you have dealers in your area that will loan out some cables. I only have one such dealer in my area but as it turned out it was the dealer who was also a cable maker so that was easy for him to loan me the wire for me to take home. Yes, I bought them too and had me make me some more :)

LeRoy

[Mr Peabody]

Good to hear from you Mr. P. Glad you have dealers in your area that will loan out some cables. I only have one such dealer in my area but as it turned out it was the dealer who was also a cable maker so that was easy for him to loan me the wire for me to take home. Yes, I bought them too and had me make me some more :)

LeRoy

I should have said, "shouldn't be true". Dealers who carry higher end brands like I mentioned above should have stock to lend for audition. Buying online could be a hassle but at the very least one can try with the 30 day return from places like musicdirect. Spearitsound offers a return but not as generous as 30 days. I returned a pair I didn't like at Spearitsound and they are very gratious about it.

[Smokey]

I still say that if you have a $10,000 system, it would be foolish to use $20 worth wire. But if you have a $1000 system it would be equaly foolish to spend $2000 on wire.

I think more appropriate way would be to choose a cable regardless of system cost whether the system cost $100 or $10,000. As a rule of thumb, buy the best quality cable one can afford :)


Cardas is very good about being able to change sound characteristics of their cable

So what you are saying is if one looking for a transparent cable, they should stay away from Cardas cables :o

[Mr Peabody]

I think more appropriate way would be to choose a cable regardless of system cost whether the system cost $100 or $10,000. As a rule of thumb, buy the best quality cable one can afford :)

No, GM is thinking right. What point would there be to buying a $1k cable for a $200.00 receiver? The receiver would not have the resolution to show the benefits of the $1k cable. You'd be better off spending that $1k on a better amp and using a $200.00 cable.

So what you are saying is if one looking for a transparent cable, they should stay away from Cardas cables :o

Huh? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I'm very familiar with Transparent and from statements made by Ajani that is a cable I would recommend he try because I feel he would like it.. I also know first hand Transparent is better than BjC in the higher and lower frequencies. I am a bit partial to what BJC does to the midrange.

Cardas makes fine cables, the Golden is a series more designed to give equipment a warmer sound where Neutral is designed to be just that, neutral. I have not compared Neutral to Transparent.

It's also VERY important to understand that cables are system dependent in order to achieve synergy. For instance, Transparent works very well for Krell but I did not like the synergy with Conrad Johnson. I found Siltech, certain Siltech, to work there better.

[Ajani]

Huh? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I'm very familiar with Transparent and from statements made by Ajani that is a cable I would recommend he try because I feel he would like it.. I also know first hand Transparent is better than BjC in the higher and lower frequencies. I am a bit partial to what BJC does to the midrange.

Cardas makes fine cables, the Golden is a series more designed to give equipment a warmer sound where Neutral is designed to be just that, neutral. I have not compared Neutral to Transparent.

It's also VERY important to understand that cables are system dependent in order to achieve synergy. For instance, Transparent works very well for Krell but I did not like the synergy with Conrad Johnson. I found Siltech, certain Siltech, to work there better.

Transparent sounds like an interesting potential upgrade path, assuming the BJC cables are an improvement on the Audioquests I have...

Cardas turns me off with the notion of cable deliberately designed to alter the sound... I don't want my cables to be tone controls... I want as clean and neutral a sound from source, pre and cables... If I do any tailoring of the sound it will be at the power amp and/or speakers....

[Mr Peabody]

Cardas Neutral would be alright but I believe it starts some what expensive.

I understand now why you couldn't hear a difference with your rig. My comments refer to analog cables where you seem to not have any in the path :) I haven't done a lot of comparison with digital cables except for HDMI and I certainly don't care to open that can of worms again.

Poultrygeist, try an old set of jumper cables. A set for each speaker. Hack those clamps off the end, just go bare wire. Now that's a connection.

[Smokey]

No, GM is thinking right. What point would there be to buying a $1k cable for a $200.00 receiver? The receiver would not have the resolution to show the benefits of the $1k cable. You'd be better off spending that $1k on a better amp and using a $200.00 cable.

Note that in my responce to GM, I never mentioned price of cable as higher price doen not necessary guaranty higher quality if transparency is goal. Good example would be (as you said) Cardas's Golden cable, a series more designed to give equipment a warmer sound. So higher price equal coloration, not transparency :)

[Mr Peabody]

Who wants transparency, isn't your name SmoKey :)

[frenchmon]

There is only one cable that I can use with my headphones; a digital cable between the Squeezebox and the Benchmark DAC1... And though I've not heard any real difference between a proper Audioquest V-DMX Digital Cable, Audioquest G-Snake RCA cables and freebie Red and White, it's hard to make a judgement on that one because of the excellent jitter rejection of the DAC1... Possibly with a different DAC, the differences would be noticeable...

With my previous system (Mid-Fi by High End standards) of a Rotel Amp/Pre with Mission Towers, I couldn't hear any difference Between Audioquest G-Snake cables and freebie red and whites... And the G-Snake are actually the second cables in Audioquest's lineup.. the cheapest are the Alpha Snake... So I'd expect to hear a difference between G-Snake and freebies in my Rotel/Mission setup.... But I've stuck with the G-Snakes because they are more durable than red and white and frankly look a lot nicer....

I definitely will replace them with some Blue Jeans (when I get the Revels) to see if the issue is just that entry level Audioquest is crap....

I'm surprised Ajani you've heard no difference with your Rotel gear. In my Rotel amp/preamp-Musical Fidelity CDP-Canton speakers.....I've used cheap Red and white freebies with cheap speaker wire, then I moved to all mono-priced interconnects and mono-priced speaker wire....and then I moved to Analysis plus interconnects and Analysis plus speaker cable and I heard an improvements at every level...especial a great improvement form mono-priced to the A+. Pappachubby even sent me some speaker cable he made, and I was able to hear a difference in the cable. What speakers where you using with your Rotel? THe Cantons are great speakers and are very revealing...its easy to hear everything with Canton speakers.

frenchmon

[Smokey]

Who wants transparency...

How about yourself. Your singature said owning a Tranaparent cable :ciappa:

[Poultrygeist]

I enjoy my new placebo cables - they sound great because I expect them to.

[Ajani]

I'm surprised Ajani you've heard no difference with your Rotel gear. In my Rotel amp/preamp-Musical Fidelity CDP-Canton speakers.....I've used cheap Red and white freebies with cheap speaker wire, then I moved to all mono-priced interconnects and mono-priced speaker wire....and then I moved to Analysis plus interconnects and Analysis plus speaker cable and I heard an improvements at every level...especial a great improvement form mono-priced to the A+. Pappachubby even sent me some speaker cable he made, and I was able to hear a difference in the cable. What speakers where you using with your Rotel? THe Cantons are great speakers and are very revealing...its easy to hear everything with Canton speakers.

frenchmon

OK, so this thread has got me to swap out my cables again... Audioquest G-Snake RCAs, Rapco HOGM Balanced and generic Red and White RCAs... I'll need to try this test again when I get better speakers, but in order of preference: Red and Whites, G-Snakes, HOGM... But to be honest the differences are so slight that I'm not confident they exist at all (also the balanced cables have a slightly lower volume than the RCAs due to the default 20db attentuation on the DAC1 - so it might be why I liked it the least)... And yes based on this quick swap; the freebie cables sounded very slightly clearer than entry level Audioquest cables....

[frenchmon]

OK, so this thread has got me to swap out my cables again... Audioquest G-Snake RCAs, Rapco HOGM Balanced and generic Red and White RCAs... I'll need to try this test again when I get better speakers, but in order of preference: Red and Whites, G-Snakes, HOGM... But to be honest the differences are so slight that I'm not confident they exist at all (also the balanced cables have a slightly lower volume than the RCAs due to the default 20db attentuation on the DAC1 - so it might be why I liked it the least)... And yes based on this quick swap; the freebie cables sounded very slightly clearer than entry level Audioquest cables....

That tells me alot about Audioquest, because my monoprice cables sounded much more better than the red/white freebies. They had more resolution and greater extension in highs, mids, and bottom. But also keep in mind...I dont use one brand for the interconnects between CD and pre, and then another between amp/preamp and another for speaker cable....I use(d) same brand cable through-out system.

frenchmon

[Ajani]

That tells me alot about Audioquest, because my monoprice cables sounded much more better than the red/white freebies. They had more resolution and greater extension in highs, mids, and bottom. But also keep in mind...I dont use one brand for the interconnects between CD and pre, and then another between amp/preamp and another for speaker cable....I use(d) same brand cable through-out system.

frenchmon

I know some audiophiles have good results with more expensive Audioquest cables, but all I can say for their more affordable cables is that they look really cool... I intend to replace all the cables in my system (Digital cable between Squeezebox and DAC1, RCA between DAC1 and XPA2, and speakers cables) with Blue Jeans Cable... If that has a positive result then I'll consider more expensive Analysis Plus (and some of the cables Mr Peabody recommended) as potential upgrades....

[Mr Peabody]

A friend uses a BJC digital cable and said he noticed an improvement. I'm not sure what he had before that.

I do the same as Frenchmon, stick with one brand throughout. I find it interesting that most reviewers you'll see using a different brand interconnect than speaker cable etc.

[Ajani]

A friend uses a BJC digital cable and said he noticed an improvement. I'm not sure what he had before that.

I do the same as Frenchmon, stick with one brand throughout. I find it interesting that most reviewers you'll see using a different brand interconnect than speaker cable etc.

Is mixing cables much different from mixing electronics? I generally like to stick with one brand whether for electronics or cables... But some persons would never use the same brand for all their electronics...

[frenchmon]

some cables have more of an extended sound than other cable. My mono price cable had a distorted sound that made the music sound bright to the point that it hurt your ears. The red and white had roll off. So all cable is not the same. Some cable will let more detail through while some may not. Some cable cables are warm some are very good at midrange, some are good at the highs....my silver cable had all midrange and high extension, but no bass what so ever...I think if we really want as good of a sound we can possibly get we will take consideration of the cable we use. Its just safer to go with all of the same brand in cable rather than mixing cable....most of them all have their own personality. With one brand...you are likely to get better synergy.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

I believe mixing brands of cables would be like mixing brands of components. For best synergy I've found sticking with same brand is best. As Frenchmon mentioned above whether gear or cables most tend to have a sonic character. Mixing those may be alright , maybe not, but staying with one brand throughout would assure you consistency.

[audio amateur]

I enjoy my new placebo cables - they sound great because I expect them to.
Sure thing.

[Mr Peabody]

I have a new Quasimoto amplifier that looks awesome and only costs $100.00, it's supposed to be the best in the world. It will be because I expect it to, I'm gullable like that.

If one is subject to placebo on cables they are subject to it across the board and if one cannot trust themselves to properly evaluate cause and effect of various system changes they shouldn't be in the hobby.

[audio amateur]

If one is subject to placebo on cables they are subject to it across the board and if one cannot trust themselves to properly evaluate cause and effect of various system changes they shouldn't be in the hobby.
That's quite a presumptuous statement if I've ever heard one..

[Ajani]

That's quite a presumptuous statement if I've ever heard one..

It's not more presumptuous than assuming that all reported cable differences (apart from defective ones) are due to the 'placebo effect'....

[audio amateur]

It's not more presumptuous than assuming that all reported cable differences (apart from defective ones) are due to the 'placebo effect'....
My stance is that in more cases than not, people are hearing what they want to hear.

[GMichael]

My stance is that in more cases than not, people are hearing what they want to hear.
Music they like?

[Ajani]

Music they like?

Nonsense! Everyone knows that audiophiles never listen to music they like, just high quality recordings designed to test the limits of their systems... :devil:

[GMichael]

Nonsense! Everyone knows that audiophiles never listen to music they like, just high quality recordings designed to test the limits of their systems... :devil:
Sign waves? All I can say is, "be carefull."

[Ajani]

My stance is that in more cases than not, people are hearing what they want to hear.

Based on what?

My attitude towards cables it just to keep an open mind...

While I respect measurements and see the need for them, I'm not even remotely convinced that we know how to measure everything that affects sound quality (yet)...

Also DBT, has never proved that cable differences don't exist... In fact several reviewers (like John Atkinson and Michael Fremmer) have scored very well on DBTs of cables, despites many audio amateurs, like you and I, failing those same DBTs... If differences exist, I'd expect the experts to be the ones to notice them, even if you and I have a hard time noticing or can't notice them...

[Feanor]

My stance is that in more cases than not, people are hearing what they want to hear.
I wouldn't quatify it by saying in "in more cases than not", i.e. >50% of cases, however I do agree that where possible real differences are very small, people tend to kid themselves. Cables and interconnect differences generally fall into the "small" category.

But I also agree that "experts" or people with better hearing are more likely to hear the real differences.

[audio amateur]

But I also agree that "experts" or people with better hearing are more likely to hear the real differences.
Thats is the real question: do we all have equal hearing?

[audio amateur]

Sign waves? All I can say is, "be carefull."
lol. we've heard that before. I've been very careful with that.

[Ajani]

Thats is the real question: do we all have equal hearing?

Several factors to consider here:

First, some persons have above average (golden ears) and some below average hearing, so YMMV when auditioning gear.

Next, experienced listeners (with proper training) will be more likely to pick up differences than untrained listeners (of similiar hearing)...

More next, some audiophiles tend to exagerate differences... They put a stone on a top one of the speakers and notice a "night and day" difference in the sound quality... I agree with Feanor that cables fall into the "small differences" category... Note: small doesn't mean not important or that it should be ignored.... When you are trying to squeeze every last bit of performance out of a quality setup, those small differences will matter....

Nexter, cables (and power cords) will have more noticable effect on some gear than others... Some amps are designed to be relatively immune to the typical issues that cables and cords are designed to correct... Others are not immune (now why some aren't immune is a question I'd love to see answered - I sometimes supect that some manufacturers just love to sell upgraded power supplies and hence put crap ones standard on their gear)....

Nextest, your room makes a difference as all manner of nasties may be present in your room: signals from your wireless devices, cellphones, radio waves, microwaves, sign wa... (uh, scratch that last one).... that can be picked up by your cables/power cords...

So best bet is to borrow a pair of cables and see if it makes a difference, if not, forget about it and be happy with what you have....