New Preamp or Long Cables/Interconnects?

[Ajani]

I have been thinking about getting a Preamp for remote volume control of my system...

My setup is in my signature below... I have the basic DAC1 (no remote), and have been either using it in combination with the digital volume control on my Squeezebox (in the range of 70 - 100) or set the squeezebox at max volume (100) and have to walk to the DAC1 to change volume...

I am LAZY and hence want to avoid getting up to change volume, but I don't want to compromise sound quality with digital volume control.... So my question is whether using long interconnects (so I can have the DAC1 next to my listening position) OR long speaker cables (so I can have all the electronics next to my listening position) OR buying a remote controlled preamp (possibly the upcoming Emotiva XSP-1) would yield the best sound quality?

So which option is supposed to be the best:

Long interconnects between the DAC1 and the power amp?
Long speaker cables?
Remote Controlled Preamp (additional device in the signal path)?

[poppachubby]

Passive attenuator...http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/899/dactct1.htm

Cheap and easy, no compromise in sound. You could wire it to your chair and back to the amp...

[Hyfi]

I have heard that longer interconnects are a better solution than longer speaker cables. If you notice in most high end system photos, they use dual mono amps sitting as close to the speaker as they can, thus using longer interconnects from the pre to the amps.

I am in a similar boat as my pre is dual mono with not one but two manual volume knobs for each side.

[Ajani]

I have heard that longer interconnects are a better solution than longer speaker cables. If you notice in most high end system photos, they use dual mono amps sitting as close to the speaker as they can, thus using longer interconnects from the pre to the amps.

I am in a similar boat as my pre is dual mono with not one but two manual volume knobs for each side.

Yep, I have noticed that in many pics... and to be honest I much prefer the look of the amp between or near the speakers and the pre near the listening position, than all the electronics near the listening position....

[Ajani]

Passive attenuator...http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/899/dactct1.htm

Cheap and easy, no compromise in sound. You could wire it to your chair and back to the amp...

I've actually considered passive pres (especially the Creek OBH22 because it has a remote)... but my concern is the length of interconnect would need to be very short to get the best out of a passive... and the actual volume control on the DAC1 is quite good...

[JoeE SP9]

I run a long IC (20Ft) to my power amps. Having very short speaker cables is a plus. A passive pre may not be the best thing with very long IC's. Also, some tube pre's that have a highish output impedance may have high frequency rolloff with long IC's.

[Luvin Da Blues]

You could get a pre with a motorized volume control such as the Marsh preamps. No digital conversion in the path. Just a thought.

[rob_a]

any thought on the Emo pre to match your amp???

[poppachubby]

I've actually considered passive pres (especially the Creek OBH22 because it has a remote)... but my concern is the length of interconnect would need to be very short to get the best out of a passive... and the actual volume control on the DAC1 is quite good...

A passive attenuator is different than a boxed preamp. It's simply a small control for the gain. You can set it up to control both channels seperately or in stereo.

I'm not sure what you mean by the volume control being quite good. I thought the point is to get away from using the DAC1's volume control. With an attenuator you would set it and forget it.

Anyhow, the info is there if you want it. Here's a pic of a stereo attenuator...

http://www.dact.com/assets/images/CT2-stereo.jpg

[E-Stat]

I thought the point is to get away from using the DAC1's volume control. With an attenuator you would set it and forget it.
The other request was for remote control. Those attenuators alone do not provide such. I know the DACT product quite well since I use a pair of their mono attenuators between my CDP and power amp. I put them in a Levinson-esque looking Par Metals cabinet using JPS Labs cable and Cardas connectors. Even with a low impedance output source, one needs to keep the ICs short - I use two meter runs. I agree with Joe on that topic. The result is greater transparency and lack of image width compression with the line stage of the SP-9.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/se2.jpg

rw

[E-Stat]

So which option is supposed to be the best:
I would vote for long very low cap ICs. As a minimalist, I am loath to add active stages. Your DAC has exceptionally low output impedance (30 ohms) even if the power amp's input impedance is fairly low (23 kohm). You might roll off the extreme top a touch, but not sacrifice resolution by adding a preamp. Not to mention arriving a more cost effective solution. Something like Blue Jeans BC-1 would fit the bill with its 40 pF/meter value.

rw

[02audionoob]

Component video cables (red/green/blue with RCA plugs) are quite low in capacitance and could serve well in a setup like this.

[blackraven]

How long of a run of speaker cable are you talking about? If it's 15-25', I would bo with a nice 10gauge speaker wire (bluejeancables). That would be the cheapest route and I really doubt that you will be able to tell the difference in sound and I would challenge any one to hear the difference.

As for IC's, you will need a low capacitance IC as others have said. How long a run of IC's would you need?

[Ajani]

I'm not sure what you mean by the volume control being quite good. I thought the point is to get away from using the DAC1's volume control.

Possibly my original post was unclear: I don't want to avoid the DAC1's volume control (I have no issue with the sound quality from it) I just want to avoid having to get up from my seat to change the volume...

So either adding a remote controlled pre or bringing the DAC1's volume knob within arm's reach....

The low quality volume control I want to dodge (set and forget) is from the Squeezebox (it has digital volume control with a remote).... The DAC1 has a decent quality analog volume control (no remote)

[Ajani]

How long of a run of speaker cable are you talking about? If it's 15-25', I would bo with a nice 10gauge speaker wire (bluejeancables). That would be the cheapest route and I really doubt that you will be able to tell the difference in sound and I would challenge any one to hear the difference.

As for IC's, you will need a low capacitance IC as others have said. How long a run of IC's would you need?

Depending on exactly where I position the DAC1, I would need between 15 and 20 ft of cable/interconnect....

[Ajani]

I would vote for long very low cap ICs. As a minimalist, I am loath to add active stages. Your DAC has exceptionally low output impedance (30 ohms) even if the power amp's input impedance is fairly low (23 kohm). You might roll off the extreme top a touch, but not sacrifice resolution by adding a preamp. Not to mention arriving a more cost effective solution. Something like Blue Jeans BC-1 would fit the bill with its 40 pF/meter value.

rw

Would you recommend RCA or Balanced? (I believe Balanced are supposed to be better for long runs - not sure though)...

[Ajani]

any thought on the Emo pre to match your amp???

Yep, I'd skip the USP-1 and wait for the XSP-1 if I go that route... But it is far more expensive than running cables, adds another component in the signal chain and gives me a load of features and inputs that I don't need...

[blackraven]

For 15-20', save your money and go with 10g speaker cables. You have a nice high current, high power amp and won't miss a beat. If you go with IC's, go balanced as they are supposed to be better for long runs.

[poppachubby]

The other request was for remote control. Those attenuators alone do not provide such. I know the DACT product quite well since I use a pair of their mono attenuators between my CDP and power amp. I put them in a Levinson-esque looking Par Metals cabinet using JPS Labs cable and Cardas connectors. Even with a low impedance output source, one needs to keep the ICs short - I use two meter runs. I agree with Joe on that topic. The result is greater transparency and lack of image width compression with the line stage of the SP-9.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/se2.jpg

rw

Stat I listened to a system that had a Sonic Frontiers SFCD-1 to dual mono DIY tube amps. He was using a DIY attenuator to bring the gain control to the front of his cabinet. The length was approx. 6 feet to and from the device.

15 - 20ft is quite a distance. But truly, how much stands to be lost through this method? A measurable amount no doubt, but I wonder how audible.

I can assure you, the SFCD-1 was sounding every bit the role of a top notch CDP.

It's no remote control, but could be brought to the listening seat during a session.

[Ajani]

I would vote for long very low cap ICs. As a minimalist, I am loath to add active stages. Your DAC has exceptionally low output impedance (30 ohms) even if the power amp's input impedance is fairly low (23 kohm). You might roll off the extreme top a touch, but not sacrifice resolution by adding a preamp. Not to mention arriving a more cost effective solution. Something like Blue Jeans BC-1 would fit the bill with its 40 pF/meter value.

rw

The XPA-2's input impedance is:

23.5 kohm unbalanced
33 kohm balanced

[Feanor]

I have been thinking about getting a Preamp for remote volume control of my system...

My setup is in my signature below... I have the basic DAC1 (no remote), and have been either using it in combination with the digital volume control on my Squeezebox (in the range of 70 - 100) or set the squeezebox at max volume (100) and have to walk to the DAC1 to change volume...

I am LAZY and hence want to avoid getting up to change volume, but I don't want to compromise sound quality with digital volume control.... So my question is whether using long interconnects (so I can have the DAC1 next to my listening position) OR long speaker cables (so I can have all the electronics next to my listening position) OR buying a remote controlled preamp (possibly the upcoming Emotiva XSP-1) would yield the best sound quality?

So which option is supposed to be the best:

Long interconnects between the DAC1 and the power amp?
Long speaker cables?
Remote Controlled Preamp (additional device in the signal path)?
OK, so you have a Benchmark Pre and are considering Emotiva XSP-1 (or do you mean XPA-1) ??

Long, balanced ICs are you answer. The Benchmark, (designed as a pro unit), as balanced outputs and the XPA-1 has balanced inputs from what they say. So no problem with 20 foot ICs.

Passive preamps at 20 feet are definitely not recommended. I gather this has to do with impedance matching: ideally you always have very low output impedance on the source and high input impedance on the target (power amp). Passive pres don't typically provide low output impedance and long IC runs further increase the impedance seen by the power amp, thus unless you power has exceptionally high input impedance, forget a passive pre. The XPA-1 has a quite low input impedance of only 20 kOhms so it doesn't look like good match for long runs from a passive pre.

[Ajani]

OK, so you have a Benchmark Pre and are considering Emotiva XSP-1 (or do you mean XPA-1) ??

Long, balanced ICs are you answer. The Benchmark, (designed as a pro unit), as balanced outputs and the XPA-1 has balanced inputs from what they say. So no problem with 20 foot ICs.

Passive preamps at 20 feet are definitely not recommended. I gather this has to do with impedance matching: ideally you always have very low output impedance on the source and high input impedance on the target (power amp). Passive pres don't typically provide low output impedance and long IC runs further increase the impedance seen by the power amp, thus unless you power has exceptionally high input impedance, forget a passive pre. The XPA-1 has a quite low input impedance of only 20 kOhms so it doesn't look like good match for long runs from a passive pre.

The XSP-1 is a new preamp from Emotiva that is scheduled to be released in a few months... I was considering waiting for it to be released and matching it with my XPA-2 amp.....

However running long interconnects or speaker cables would be far cheaper than the approx $800 for the XSP-1 or even a remote controlled Passive Pre like the Creek OBH-22 ($500)....

I have the basic Benchmark DAC1... All 4 DAC1 Models (Basic, USB, PRE and HDR) have volume control... The Pre just adds an analog input and the HDR adds a remote...

[Feanor]

The XSP-1 is a new preamp from Emotiva that is scheduled to be released in a few months... I was considering waiting for it to be released and matching it with my XPA-2 amp.....

However running long interconnects or speaker cables would be far cheaper than the approx $800 for the XSP-1 or even a remote controlled Passive Pre like the Creek OBH-22 ($500)....

I have the basic Benchmark DAC1... All 4 DAC1 Models (Basic, USB, PRE and HDR) have volume control... The Pre just adds an analog input and the HDR adds a remote...
Ah! Sorry for my confusion. I believe the XPA-2 also has true balanced input so I see no no reason at all for a preamp just to get remote control and avoid long ICs.

[Ajani]

Ah! Sorry for my confusion. I believe the XPA-2 also has true balanced input so I see no no reason at all for a preamp just to get remote control and avoid long ICs.

Yep, I agree... Spending the extra money on a Pre just to get a remote is a waste (unless the Pre would provide better sound quality than long interconnects - but it would likely do the opposite)...

So now I'm trying to decide between Blackraven's long speaker cable suggestion and the general suggestion of getting long interconnects...

(I actually relocated my amp to under my coffee table last night and have the DAC1 on top of the table - as my current speaker cables are about 7.5 ft; which is enough to go direct across the floor - it works, but obviously looks bad and has the cables in my walkway)...

[poppachubby]

So, how do you plan to do this? How are you going to run these extra long cables/IC's? Will you bring out the DAC to your listening seat during a session?

[Ajani]

So, how do you plan to do this? How are you going to run these extra long cables/IC's? Will you bring out the DAC to your listening seat during a session?

I'm thinking of running the ICs around the room (direct would be shorter but look nasty and need to be under a rug or taped down to avoid being a tripping hazard) and have the DAC1 & Squeezebox permanently on my coffee or side table....

Having moved the amp under my coffee table to experiment last night, I see that the way your friend uses the passive volume control could work as well (but I'd need to use at least 8 feet of IC from DAC to PVC and another 8 ft back to the amp)....

[poppachubby]

Well, I want to hear what Joe or Ralph has to say about "the cost" of the attenuator. Slightly rolled highs in the case of the IC's is no biggy, not IMO. I can't see it being much worse for the control.

The thing I didn't mention, was that he was using 30 AWG silver core in a triple helix twist, both ways. VERY expensive, perhaps this makes it possible, I don't know. As I said before, this guys system is absolute magic, so he's doing something right. You mentioned your problem and I thought of his set up right away.

[Feanor]

)...

So now I'm trying to decide between Blackraven's long speaker cable suggestion and the general suggestion of getting long interconnects...


Given fully balance connections, long IC (vs. long spearker cable), is the way to go, IMO.

[E-Stat]

Would you recommend RCA or Balanced? (I believe Balanced are supposed to be better for long runs - not sure though)...
If your source and amp use a truly balanced design (many do not), then I'd opt for balanced. On the other hand, they might not be necessary with sufficiently low cap cabling.

rw

[E-Stat]

15 - 20ft is quite a distance. But truly, how much stands to be lost through this method? A measurable amount no doubt, but I wonder how audible.
DACT has a convenient Excel based calculator that can determine the amount of HF roll off. Look here. (http://dact.com/html/ac_calculator.html) Using twenty feet of Blue Jeans LC-1 @ 12.2 pF / ft would run 244 pF. Plugging in that value and the 23kohm input looks pretty flat to 20 khz. I doubt one would hear any difference when the gain control is used at the upper end of its range. Extreme attenuation, however, would change the scenario.

With my DACT attenuators, they are used in the optimal -10 to -4 db range. Responding to your other post, I spent just over $300 on my project. Naturally, one does not have to get a fancy black anodized aluminum box. That was entirely a cosmetic enhancement and looks like an old Mark Levinson JC-2. I spent $4 on the enclosure for my last Radio Shack based attenuators. :)

Pair of CT-1s: $200
Par-Metal cabinet: $80
Cardas jacks: $30
Feet: $10
Cable: free!

I get remarkably neutral and transparent results with the GamuT CD-1 driving the VTL tube amps directly. I am not a fan of using deliberately warm or overtly "tubey" sounding components. Nor do I find any value in inserting an otherwise superfluous tube buffer stage just to color or mask the results.

rw

[rob_a]

If your source and amp use a truly balanced design (many do not), then I'd opt for balanced. On the other hand, they might not be necessary with sufficiently low cap cabling.

rw

From what I have heard, Emo's xpa-2 does not have true balanced XLR in-puts.

[Ajani]

If your source and amp use a truly balanced design (many do not), then I'd opt for balanced. On the other hand, they might not be necessary with sufficiently low cap cabling.

rw

The source might be, but I doubt the amp is truly balanced (as the X-Series amp manual only refers to the XPA-1 Monoblocks as being "fully balanced")...

Though this is not a fair comparison as the IC's are from different brands (one consumer and one pro): I find that I prefer the sound of my Audioquest RCA Cables to my Rapco Balanced Cables...

[audio amateur]

I suspect IC's will probably be more susceptible to RFI etc with long runs vs. speaker wire. If you run long IC's, I suggest using some that are well shielded.

I wouldn't add any more components in the chain. I'd either go with long IC's or long speaker wires.

[Ajani]

Having had the DAC1/Classic on my coffee table for a day and the XPA-2 under the table, I'm sold on having the DAC1 within arm's reach... A benefit I hadn't considered but quickly realised is that I can easily switch to my headphones from the speakers.... And the DAC1/Classic looks pretty cool on the coffee table... The amp under the table is not quite as visually appealing... I really want it in between the speakers on an amp stand (then I can pretend to be a serious audiophile with an expensive setup).....

I wish I had a Squeezebox Touch now...

[poppachubby]

Thanks for the info E. Perhaps an 8 ft run wouldn't be too bad after all Ajani.

[Smokey]

I suspect IC's will probably be more susceptible to RFI etc with long runs vs. speaker wire.

Your suspicion is right. ICs are high impedance connection which make them more susceptible to noise than speaker wires which are low impedance connection. Also extra long ICs will add excessive capacitance to the signal path.

[blackraven]

Your suspicion is right. ICs are high impedance connection which make them more susceptible to noise than speaker wires which are low impedance connection. Also extra long ICs will add excessive capacitance to the signal path.

Exactly and that in itself may roll of high frequencies . 20-25 feet of speaker wire will not impact the sound and will be cheaper than long runs of IC's. I could under stand if you had an under powered amp trying to drive low sensitivity speakers with long runs of speaker cable, but with over 300wpc and over 45 amps you should be able use 50ft runs with out any noticable drop off in sound using heavy guage wire. And if you did hear a difference than I would have great reservations about the quality of the Emotiva.

[Feanor]

Your suspicion is right. ICs are high impedance connection which make them more susceptible to noise than speaker wires which are low impedance connection. Also extra long ICs will add excessive capacitance to the signal path.
Smokey, while I believe you're essentially correct in these statement, I doubt their practical significance over a distance of 20 feet.

Balanced I/Cs, (which are the only kind I've suggested), greatly reduce the problem of noise (EMI/RFI) captue by the cables. Ajani, check out Blue Jeans Cable's 'Balanced Audio' discussion and selection, (here (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/balancedaudio/index.htm)). Note the low capacitance of their Belden F1800 recommendation.

What is more, speaker cables in general make more difference to the sound that I/Cs, IMO. Add the extra length to the equation and the selection becomes both more difficult and potentially cost.

[Feanor]

Exactly and that in itself may roll of high frequencies . 20-25 feet of speaker wire will not impact the sound and will be cheaper than long runs of IC's. I could under stand if you had an under powered amp trying to drive low sensitivity speakers with long runs of speaker cable, but with over 300wpc and over 45 amps you should be able use 50ft runs with out any noticable drop off in sound using heavy guage wire. And if you did hear a difference than I would have great reservations about the quality of the Emotiva.
How do you figure speaker wire is cheaper?

Even if you comparing "cheap" wire, e.g. Belden 5T00UP (10 ga.) speaker wire terminated with banana plugs with Belden 1800F (balanced) I/C terminated with Neutrik XLR connectors, the price is almost exactly the same from Blues Jeans. Granted prices are all over the map when you get into expensive/exotic cable.

While it's true capacitance and EMI/RFI capture are relatively minor issues with speaker cable, inductance and resistance are problems that can adversely affect bass response in a way that is not compensated by amplifier power.

[Ajani]

How do you figure speaker wire is cheaper?

Even if you comparing "cheap" wire, e.g. Belden 5T00UP (10 ga.) speaker wire terminated with banana plugs with Belden 1800F (balanced) I/C terminated with Neutrik XLR connectors, the price is almost exactly the same from Blues Jeans. Granted prices are all over the map when you get into expensive/exotic cable.

While it's true capacitance and EMI/RFI capture are relatively minor issues with speaker cable, inductance and resistance are problems that can adversely affect bass response in a way that is not compensated by amplifier power.

Speaker cable would only be cheaper if they are not terminated.... But since I'd prefer Banana Plugs, they'd actually be more expensive (Emotiva/BJC).....

Unless we are talking about ultra cheap (low quality) speaker cable...

[blackraven]

How do you figure speaker wire is cheaper?

Even if you comparing "cheap" wire, e.g. Belden 5T00UP (10 ga.) speaker wire terminated with banana plugs with Belden 1800F (balanced) I/C terminated with Neutrik XLR connectors, the price is almost exactly the same from Blues Jeans. Granted prices are all over the map when you get into expensive/exotic cable.

While it's true capacitance and EMI/RFI capture are relatively minor issues with speaker cable, inductance and resistance are problems that can adversely affect bass response in a way that is not compensated by amplifier power.

I would buy unterminated 10g BJC's. Its dirt cheap and you can terminate them yourself. I bought 30ft and termiated it myself. I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

25'x2 BJC's balanced is $107.

25x2 BJC speaker wire is $50 + $14 for the Banana's.

Read the 17th post http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24329.0

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-length-differences-do-they-matter

[Ajani]

I would buy unterminated 10g BJC's. Its dirt cheap and you can terminate them yourself. I bought 30ft and termiated it myself. I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

25'x2 BJC's balanced is $107.

25x2 BJC speaker wire is $50 + $14 for the Banana's.

Read the 17th post http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24329.0

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-length-differences-do-they-matter

Of most interest to me is that BJC recommends not terminating the cables.... I think I'll just use the bare wire then.... Bare wire is easy to use with my amp terminals and saves me te cost of spades or bananas....

[poppachubby]

Of most interest to me is that BJC recommends not terminating the cables.... I think I'll just use the bare wire then.... Bare wire is easy to use with my amp terminals and saves me te cost of spades or bananas....

They aren't the only ones. If your amp/speakers can accept the guage you're using, go bare for sure. I use 12 AWG and have to use pins for my Marantz 1515. Consider "tinning" as an alternative to plugs or pins.

BTW, I know BJC is all the rage around here, but I have a great line locally on Ultralink.

It's their Challenger-II series, 12 AWG. Wonderfully constructed and is most certainly competitive with the BJC. I can get it for 1.40/ft CDN. I have seen closeouts online, 30 ft. for $65/70 plus shipping. This is still a good price but forces you to buy a minimum amount.

If you like, I can hook it up for you and send it down to JAM. Let me know how many feet and I can put a quote together for you. Rich uses Ultralink and can attest to its quality.

The other consideration is along the lines of what AA was saying. Aside from IC's needing shielding, the speaker cable is best to be properly shielded for long runs. The Challenger-II has a tough dielectric for each channel, and a jacket for both.

http://cableadvisor.com/ultralink-audio-c2sc-12-250ft-12-gauge-speaker-cable.html

[poppachubby]

Oh and I can get the Matrix series 12 AWG for 1.20/ft. Also quite nice, but not shielded as thoroughly.

Afterthought;
My mom is in Runaway Bay for 3 weeks, I should have sent it down with her. How perfect would that have been?

[Smokey]

Smokey, while I believe you're essentially correct in these statement, I doubt their practical significance over a distance of 20 feet.

Balanced I/Cs, (which are the only kind I've suggested), greatly reduce the problem of noise (EMI/RFI) captue by the cables.

If the IC connection is not balance, would you still use 20 feet of IC?

I tend to agree with Blackraven that speaker output is more forgiven about cable shortcomings that IC output :)

[E-Stat]

If the IC connection is not balance, would you still use 20 feet of IC?
So long as the capacitance is low, my experience has been positive with relatively long runs like that. Back in '77, I had the Acoustat X full range electrostat. Since they had power amps in the bases, one necessarily needed to use long IC runs. Originally I used some Belden RG-58 stuff and later used some lower cap Audio Technica cable. Today, I use low cap Belden 1694 between my computer audio card and the in-house system receiver.

rw

[audio amateur]

I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

lol! I'm pretty sure a 10 year old could do it

[Ajani]

lol! I'm pretty sure a 10 year old could do it

An 8 year old does this (At 0:42 mark):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGqQuSEJjZc

Don't think I'd want to try it though....

[Feanor]

I would buy unterminated 10g BJC's. Its dirt cheap and you can terminate them yourself. I bought 30ft and termiated it myself. I'm assuming Ajani has some basic skills to apply the Banana plugs.

25'x2 BJC's balanced is $107.

25x2 BJC speaker wire is $50 + $14 for the Banana's.

Read the 17th post http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24329.0

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-length-differences-do-they-matter
BR, I never doubted you could do the math. And it's easy to added banana connectors; even I have done it on many occassions. Also, bare wire is fine unless you connect/disconnect fairly often

My basic point was that the difference in price is relatively insignificant.

[Ajani]

I may have to reconsider my options here... I calculated cable length based on running the cables around the floor (which means they'd be under the doormat for the entrance - which is not a great idea unless I find flat cables... and If I use flat ones then I might as well just run them direct to me under a rug - about 8 ft)... If I run them over the door I need around 40 ft of cable/IC....

Anyway, this is a pic of the room at the moment:

[Ajani]

So I've cut down my options to one of the following:

1) Run approx 40 ft of IC and use the volume control (gain stage) of the DAC1...

2) Buy a remote controlled passive pre (Creek OBH-22 being the most likely option, or the Placette RVC if I'm willing to spend more) and set the output level on the DAC1 to fixed...


Note: I ruled out adding an Emotiva Pre as I don't want another active stage in the signal chain... and I ruled out long speaker cable as I don't want to relocate the amp....

So I guess it comes down to whether the volume control of the DAC1 driving 40 ft of IC is better than a Passive pre driving 3 ft or less of IC....

EDIT: According to the DAC1 manual, the RCA connections have an output impedance of 30 (as E-Stat said earlier) and are able to drive a maximum cable length of 1360ft... So hopefully 40ft should be fine....

[blackraven]

I may have to reconsider my options here... I calculated cable length based on running the cables around the floor (which means they'd be under the doormat for the entrance - which is not a great idea unless I find flat cables... and If I use flat ones then I might as well just run them direct to me under a rug - about 8 ft)... If I run them over the door I need around 40 ft of cable/IC....

Anyway, this is a pic of the room at the moment:

Can you run them up through the ceiling and down the back wall?

[Ajani]

Can you run them up through the ceiling and down the back wall?

The ceiling is actually about 20 ft high on the wall behind the speakers and about 12 ft high behind the couch, so it would be about the same length of cable if I run it that way...

[audio amateur]

I vote for the rug option

[Ajani]

I vote for the rug option

That would only work if I find flat ICs.... otherwise I'd have an ugly bulge in the rug... And I'm certain that some clown would insist on walking on it....

[Ajani]

More and more the Placette RVC is looking intriguing:

http://www.placetteaudio.com/remote_control.htm

It is exactly what I need; 1 input and a remote... While the gain control in the DAC1 is generally regarded as very good SS, The RVC seems to be an excellent volume control.... So it may well be an improvement over the DAC1...

The Creek seems nice enough, but I'm not sure if it would be an improvement over the DAC1...

So I may just continue with my setup as is, until I can get the Placette....

[audio amateur]

Why would you spend so much money on something that's not even going to change or improve the sound? For a lot less you can probably get yourself a pair of good flat interconnects

[audio amateur]

With the rest of the money you can buy a rug and other stuff for the room, looks like it needs a little decoration.

[Ajani]

Why would you spend so much money on something that's not even going to change or improve the sound? For a lot less you can probably get yourself a pair of good flat interconnects

The reason to spend the extra for the Placette would be the assumption that it will sound better than the gain stage of the DAC1...

For a lot less I could just run 45ft of BJC LC1....

[audio amateur]

I didn't know you could by pass the gain stage on the DAC1

[Ajani]

I didn't know you could by pass the gain stage on the DAC1

Bypassing the volume control on the DAC1 (and especially the -20db internal jumpers on the XLR) is a rite of passage for audiophiles....

Note: I haven't switched the XLR jumpers to 0db, which is likely why I prefer the RCA sound of the DAC1 - the problem being that since about 10 oclock is the max volume I can tolerate, then increasing the volume 20db would mean I basically can't touch the volume control at all in balanced mode....

[Ajani]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions... While I think I'll eventually want to check out the Placette Passive, the best move for the foreseeable future is to combine AA and PoppaC's suggestions; Place the DAC1/Classic on the coffee table and run some ICs direct to them... Not under a rug, just plug the cables into the DAC when I'm ready to start listening to music (otherwise leave them just attached to the amp, out of the walkway)... Dirt cheap and since the cables would be under 3M then I don't need to worry about sound degradation...

[Feanor]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions... While I think I'll eventually want to check out the Placette Passive, the best move for the foreseeable future is to combine AA and PoppaC's suggestions; Place the DAC1/Classic on the coffee table and run some ICs direct to them... Not under a rug, just plug the cables into the DAC when I'm ready to start listening to music (otherwise leave them just attached to the amp, out of the walkway)... Dirt cheap and since the cables would be under 3M then I don't need to worry about sound degradation...
Brutally practical guys, AA and PC. :smilewinkgrin: