Upgrading HT..not a first timer but please help?

[lithnights]

I'm hoping you guys can help out a relative newbie. We will be replacing our 8 year old TV with a Samsung PN50B860 50-Inch 1080p Plasma HDTV, replacing the entertainment center, and want to upgrade/create a new home theater around it. We haven't decided whether to hang the TV on the wall or just get a 6ft wide furniture stand. I currently have the following..

Pioneer VSX-1015TX receiver (3 years old)
Bose 301 series IV speakers front speakers (13 years old)
Infinity center channel model CC-2 (13 years old)
AR S108PS subwoofer 100W (5 years old)
Onkyo DX-C390 5 disc cd player (3 years old)
JA Audio Mini -Cube Speakers Model JA-B3 rear speakers (5 years old)

My existing setup (mostly bought while single) is pretty decent for my ears but my wife would prefer a sleeker, less obtrusive look.. e.g. cube type speakers or in wall speakers. Thus the 301s may have to go. Also, I'd like to get matching front and center speakers since I've heard that produces a better sound than non-matching speakers. Also, the rear speakers are a brand (JA Audio) I've never heard of and cost me $80 off ebay. Who knows how good/bad they really are. The family room is 14x20. See link to pictures of existing. I know the speakers aren't lined up correctly but there was really no way to get the side speakers in line without drilling into the ent center.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lithnights/HT#

PURPOSE: While I used to crank up music (radio and cds), I now have two small kids and I don't do it that often. I also don't watch as many movies as I used to but I think that will increase. (Even the Cars movie would sound great in surround sound! haha) Thus I imagine my main purpose for my HT is for movie watching but I don't want to get dinky speakers that won't be able to handle me cranking up the music like I do with my 301s. 5.1 is a minimum. I don't know if I want/need 6.1 and definitely not 7.1.

BUDGET: My budget for the 5 speakers plus sub is $1000-1500 or so. I don't mind spending a bit more if it's a noticeable difference. But me not being an audiophile, I imagine the law of diminishing returns would kick in and I wouldn't tell a difference.

QUESTIONS/CONCERNS:

1. I believe my Pioneer receiver is adequate for what I need but it does not have HDMI inputs. Is this a concern? Could I just buy/use a switch of some sort?
2. Should I keep my sub or get a new one?
3. Can I find small/sleek speakers that would rival or outperform my 301s? If not, I'll probably be looking at in wall speakers.
4. Based on my receiver and TV, do you have any suggestions or thoughts on speakers/sub?

Sorry for so much info but I figured it's better to give too much than too little. If I'm being too vague or too specific, please let me know.

Thanks in advance!

[Woochifer]

Your budget is okay for a decent upgrade. The first thing I would add is not even on your list -- a Blu-ray player. If you're upgrading to HDTV, you will want to upgrade your sources to HD, beginning with the disc player and your cable/satellite box.

On the audio side, you'll be quite happy when the Bose 301s get upgraded (I used to use a pair of them as surrounds when my wife and I combined our systems together).

I would stick with a good pair of bookshelf speakers and add the matching center. You can upgrade the subwoofer anytime. For the surrounds, I generally prefer using another pair of direct firing speakers. Many speakers labeled as "surround" speakers use a dipolar design, and IMO that approach is outdated. Ideally, you want the speakers to match as closely as possible. Mixing different speakers together will diminish the surround effect.

I generally don't recommend 5.1 speaker packages because they pair satellite units that are too small, with inadequate subwoofers. At a minimum, you want to go with a speaker package that uses full sized bookshelf speakers that can deliver accurately well into the midbass range, and a legitimate subwoofer. An example is SVS' speaker package. It's very well regarded, and SVS' subwoofers rank among the best in the industry. Their basic starter package is selling for less than $1,100, including a subwoofer.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs_black.cfm

As far as HDMI goes, a switch box will run a lot cheaper than a new receiver. At some point you will want to upgrade the receiver, especially if you get a Blu-ray player because Blu-ray includes higher resolution audio. If you go with a HDMI switch, look for one that auto-switches between active sources.

[lithnights]

Your budget is okay for a decent upgrade. The first thing I would add is not even on your list -- a Blu-ray player. If you're upgrading to HDTV, you will want to upgrade your sources to HD, beginning with the disc player and your cable/satellite box.

On the audio side, you'll be quite happy when the Bose 301s get upgraded (I used to use a pair of them as surrounds when my wife and I combined our systems together).

I would stick with a good pair of bookshelf speakers and add the matching center. You can upgrade the subwoofer anytime. For the surrounds, I generally prefer using another pair of direct firing speakers. Many speakers labeled as "surround" speakers use a dipolar design, and IMO that approach is outdated. Ideally, you want the speakers to match as closely as possible. Mixing different speakers together will diminish the surround effect.

I generally don't recommend 5.1 speaker packages because they pair satellite units that are too small, with inadequate subwoofers. At a minimum, you want to go with a speaker package that uses full sized bookshelf speakers that can deliver accurately well into the midbass range, and a legitimate subwoofer. An example is SVS' speaker package. It's very well regarded, and SVS' subwoofers rank among the best in the industry. Their basic starter package is selling for less than $1,100, including a subwoofer.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs_black.cfm

As far as HDMI goes, a switch box will run a lot cheaper than a new receiver. At some point you will want to upgrade the receiver, especially if you get a Blu-ray player because Blu-ray includes higher resolution audio. If you go with a HDMI switch, look for one that auto-switches between active sources.

Agree, a blu ray player is already on the to buy list. Should have mentioned that.

When you say you used 301s as surround speakers, do you mean as front speakers or rear speakers?

I think my main concern/question is can I get quality sound for a HT by using small (cube type) speakers or am I going to have to get larger speakers? I assume the law of physics won't allow great sound to come out of such little speakers..even though the wife would love the size of them. If not, I think i may lean towards in wall speakers. By doing that, I could get great quality sound and pass the wife acceptance test. Are there any drawbacks to in wall speakers..besides the fact that once they're installed, they're tough to move?

I've heard of SVS.. I'll be taking a look at their site.

Thanks,

[Mr Peabody]

You might take a look at Mirage speakers. I haven't heard them personally. Also check out Anthony Gallo speakers. Very unique, small, the ones I heard sounded very good. Some like the unique look, some don't. As you stated it's physics small "cube" speakers can only go so low and as Wooch pointed out you want your speakers to reach the range where they blend with the sub. If not, you end up with a frequency gap.

Are you going to be able to put wall speakers at ear level and where the speaker needs to be for 5.1? Good companies are making them now and there could be some good ones out there but you will have no placement versatility once installed.

If it was me and you weren't going to upgrade the receiver right away I'd stick with component for the video. Why mess with HDMI just for video? Of course, if you don't have either I'd buy HDMI in order not to have to buy them in the future and have component cables just thrown aside.

[rob_a]

Generally most people won’t recommend "all in one systems" at this forum and I would urge you to stay away from them also. as for as a TV stand, I would go with a 6ft wide furniture stand, this will give you a place for a center speaker and your blu ray player and receiver. remember to secure the TV to your wall if you have young kids!!!!

Definitely get a good Blu ray player, one with DTS Master Audio and Dolby HD audio options. You will be able to use this for all movies and playing CD's. Get a receiver with HDMI in puts and that can Decode HD Audio or at least pass it through. Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, H/K, all have the latest option so you should be able to get all the Good features.

As far as speakers go, a matched set is best for HT. I would recommend nothing smaller than 2 way bookshelf speakers for the front mains, 90% for the sound comes from them, so you will want some size to get descent dynamic range. And last, stay away from Bose :eek6:

[VE4CAN]

Just some quick thoughts
Check Monoprice.com for TV Wall mount brackets and stands also interconnects..

After you save some coin there you might have enough for these
Check http://XXX.axiomaudio.com/m80.html (http://XXX.axiomaudio.com/m80.html) at $1,370.00 CAD a pair [a good buy]..
This site has them listed under HOT Deals in the SHOP category
I heard them they sound great so I bought a pair
And you can bi-amp them....
They are 4 ohm impedance and you need a high current amp to light them up before the dam amp lights up. :mad5:

.

[VE4CAN]

Another thought..

If your plasma is in a room with high ambient background light [such as windows] the picture will suck..
A LED display might be a better choice if that's the case..
Look for one that has a refresh rate of 240 Hz technology if you watch high speed sports

.

[poppachubby]

http://www.tektondesign.com/theater.htm

[Mr Peabody]

Most with even moderate equipment would appreciate the improvement with Bluejeans cable over Monoprice. Why would one spend thousands or even hundreds on a system and connect it up with $5.00 cables? BJC isn't expensive and the improvement I hear is worth the difference in price.

[VE4CAN]

Most with even moderate equipment would appreciate the improvement with Bluejeans cable over Monoprice. Why would one spend thousands or even hundreds on a system and connect it up with $5.00 cables? BJC isn't expensive and the improvement I hear is worth the difference in price.

Actually I own some BJC interconnects...
They are OK I guess,, I've cut some open to remake them...
I will probably buy them again, but I'm not overly impressed,, I can get the same build elsewhere for less...
I'm only looking for build versus cost...
Most of us can't hear, or even measure the difference we all claim that we can hear...

.

[Woochifer]

Agree, a blu ray player is already on the to buy list. Should have mentioned that.

When you say you used 301s as surround speakers, do you mean as front speakers or rear speakers?

Rear speakers. Front L/R speakers are referred to as the main speakers.


I think my main concern/question is can I get quality sound for a HT by using small (cube type) speakers or am I going to have to get larger speakers? I assume the law of physics won't allow great sound to come out of such little speakers..even though the wife would love the size of them. If not, I think i may lean towards in wall speakers. By doing that, I could get great quality sound and pass the wife acceptance test. Are there any drawbacks to in wall speakers..besides the fact that once they're installed, they're tough to move?

The simple answer is that you want a speaker that can comfortably extend into the midbass range. Most cube speakers cannot extend into that range, so the manufacturer can make up for that lack of midbass by extending the range of the subwoofer into the midbass or simply leaving a frequency gaps between where the cube leaves off and where the subwoofer takes over.

Either approach is problematic because:

1) If the subwoofer is asked to extend into the midbass, then the sub will be reveal its location and it won't sound too good because subwoofers are optimal for only the lower bass range
2) If you leave frequency gaps, it fundamentally changes how music and other things sound; it's fundamentally inaccurate

Ideally, you want a decent sized bookshelf speaker because those can extend down past 80 Hz (which is the typical crossover frequency for a HT receiver). Below 80 Hz, you will want the subwoofer to assume the bass handling duties. You will only get that with a good set of bookshelf speakers.

In-wall speakers are a compromise because the tonal characteristics are more unpredictable. The physics of a box speaker precisely match the volume of the box with the driver characteristics, and the port diameter (for ported designs). An in-wall speaker does not benefit from this precise balancing act that speaker makers design into their speakers.


If your plasma is in a room with high ambient background light [such as windows] the picture will suck..

Only if the room gets a lot of direct sunlight during most of the day will a plasma not produce enough light output. I use a plasma in a room with a full window covering the length of one wall, and even under those conditions I calibrated it using a reduced brightness setting from the factory defaults. Meeting a calibrated reference spec in a well lit room is well within the capability of a plasma panel. Only if you prefer an extremely bright picture will a plasma be inadequate; and in that case IMO the picture will look like crap no matter what panel type you go with.


A LED display might be a better choice if that's the case..

LED backlighting will increase the contrast and produce a purer light, but it won't produce a higher maximum light output. CCFL backlights will produce light output levels that go well beyond normal viewing range.


Look for one that has a refresh rate of 240 Hz technology if you watch high speed sports

That Samsung plasma TV that the OP is purchasing has a measured motion resolution of over 900 lines, which means minimal blurring with moving backgrounds. LCD TVs need the higher refresh rate to compensate for their lower motion resolution at native display rates.

With 240 Hz TVs, you really have to be careful because most manufacturers don't do a full implementation of the 240 Hz display rate. As far as I know, only Samsung and Sony do the 240 Hz display rate correctly, with both the video processing and display refreshing at 240 Hz. Other manufacturers pair a 120 Hz panel display rate with a 240 Hz scanning backlight, and call it "240 Hz." This design is not much of an improvement over 120 Hz at all, and actually cuts the light output in half, thus negating the most compelling reason to go with LCD.

[lithnights]

You might take a look at Mirage speakers. I haven't heard them personally. Also check out Anthony Gallo speakers. Very unique, small, the ones I heard sounded very good. Some like the unique look, some don't. As you stated it's physics small "cube" speakers can only go so low and as Wooch pointed out you want your speakers to reach the range where they blend with the sub. If not, you end up with a frequency gap.

Are you going to be able to put wall speakers at ear level and where the speaker needs to be for 5.1? Good companies are making them now and there could be some good ones out there but you will have no placement versatility once installed.

If it was me and you weren't going to upgrade the receiver right away I'd stick with component for the video. Why mess with HDMI just for video? Of course, if you don't have either I'd buy HDMI in order not to have to buy them in the future and have component cables just thrown aside.

I should be able to put (if I do them) wall speakers at ear level since i'm scrapping the current entertainment system and there is nothing else on that wall.

I'll check out the Mirage speakers you mention.

Thanks,

[lithnights]

Generally most people won’t recommend "all in one systems" at this forum and I would urge you to stay away from them also. as for as a TV stand, I would go with a 6ft wide furniture stand, this will give you a place for a center speaker and your blu ray player and receiver. remember to secure the TV to your wall if you have young kids!!!!

Definitely get a good Blu ray player, one with DTS Master Audio and Dolby HD audio options. You will be able to use this for all movies and playing CD's. Get a receiver with HDMI in puts and that can Decode HD Audio or at least pass it through. Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, H/K, all have the latest option so you should be able to get all the Good features.

As far as speakers go, a matched set is best for HT. I would recommend nothing smaller than 2 way bookshelf speakers for the front mains, 90% for the sound comes from them, so you will want some size to get descent dynamic range. And last, stay away from Bose :eek6:

I assume most of you would steer me from all in ones. I always wondered how someone could buy an all in one system for the same cost as a single pair of front speakers. It doesn't add up to me. But it's good to get confirmation of that.

You mention a 6 ft furniture stand. Any suggestions on where to get something like that? Just a typical furniture store or head to a Best Buy type store and see what furniture they carry?

"Stay away from Bose.. eek" I actually like my Bose 301s. They've done me good for 13 years or so. Or maybe I just don't know any better. ; )

[blackraven]

PSB B-25'S FRONT on sale for $299pr at www.saturdayaoudio.com
PSB B-15'S REAR on sale- $199pr at www.audioadvisor.com
PSB C-60 CENTER on sale for $279 at saturdayaudio

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBIMB15

http://saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/image_specials_march.htm

Add an HSU, SVS or Mirage S10 sub and you have a great sytem.

What is your budget for a tv stand?

here's a great place for AV stands and racks. If you want furniture quality wood stands check out Room and Board

http://www.vtimanufacturing.com/Audio%20racks%20&%20AV%20stands.htm

[Mr Peabody]

For a nice A/V stand look for Hooker at your furniture store. Much of it is real wood and will cost though. Nice stuff.

[blackraven]

Here's the link for AV stands that I forgot to post earlier

http://www.vtimanufacturing.com/Audio%20racks%20&%20AV%20stands.htm

I own this one in black with the frosted glass. It's very well made and is able to support my 60# parasound amp and my 55# adcom

http://www.vtimanufacturing.com/RGR406S%20Enlarge.htm

[pixelthis]

I assume most of you would steer me from all in ones. I always wondered how someone could buy an all in one system for the same cost as a single pair of front speakers. It doesn't add up to me. But it's good to get confirmation of that.

You mention a 6 ft furniture stand. Any suggestions on where to get something like that? Just a typical furniture store or head to a Best Buy type store and see what furniture they carry?

"Stay away from Bose.. eek" I actually like my Bose 301s. They've done me good for 13 years or so. Or maybe I just don't know any better. ; )

YOU DON'T "know anybetter".
I speak from experience.
If the wifey wants unobtrusive and you want nice check out Deftech's line of
sub-sat systems, small subs, sats.
And the price is right.
And I know I cant talk you outta a plasma miasma, so just let me tell you what I tell all
plasma buyers in advance.
I TOLD YOU SO.:1:

[lithnights]

YOU DON'T "know anybetter".
I speak from experience.
If the wifey wants unobtrusive and you want nice check out Deftech's line of
sub-sat systems, small subs, sats.
And the price is right.
And I know I cant talk you outta a plasma miasma, so just let me tell you what I tell all
plasma buyers in advance.
I TOLD YOU SO.:1:

I've never been so glad to feel insulted. hahaa.. just kidding. I guess it's all relative. Going from basically a boom box years ago to those 301s was like going from b&w tv to color tv. It was amazing, and still is since I have nothing on the upside to compare to. Soon that will change!

I checked out those deftech satellites specifically the Mythos Gem 4.2 x 4.1 x 10.2 inches Now you're talking! I'm loving that size! I will show her these. My only concern is the price.. $560 a set, a bit higher than I had hoped but not the end of the world. How would I match these up with a center channel and surrounds? I'd rather not use $560 a set to use as my surrounds... I clicked on their link and saw their center speakers but how would I know which one to match up to the Mythos Gem? I'll browse their page some more but if you can point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it. I did see they had a 5.1 surround system (Mythos Gem) but it was $2200 which is out of my range, so maybe I need to keep looking or just scale down the sub or surrounds.

Regarding the plasma, anyone can talk me out of anything. I haven't bought it yet and won't be buying for another couple months probably. The plasma choice was just based on some reviews I had read, seeing it in Best Buy etc. So lay it on me, let's hear it... are you saying any plasma is a bad call? Reasons? Suggesting LCD or even LED? I guess that's really for another thread but since you brought it up, let me know?

[Mr Peabody]

Boy..... you just don't know when to leave sleeping dogs lay :) Oh well, not much else going on around here.... why not another LCD vs Plasma exchange.

[lithnights]

Boy..... you just don't know when to leave sleeping dogs lay :) Oh well, not much else going on around here.... why not another LCD vs Plasma exchange.

Uh oh.. I assume this is a hotly debated topic here.. I never scanned the other forums and threads but no doubt I will do that now!! ; )

With that said, everyone please ignore my plasma question above. ButI still am curious about using the Deftech line to use as my new 5.1 system. I really am (for my wifes sake of course) intrigued by the size of them.

[blackraven]

If your TV room is bright during the day or you like watching at night with lamps on go with an LCD because you won't like the glare. Also, be careful with some of the Samsung LCD's because some of them use a glossy highly reflective screen like the plasma's. If the room is dark then go with a Plasma. My family room has a lot of windows and the TV faces a large south window. We went with a Sony XBR LCD and have no problems watching it during the day. If we went with a plasma there would be no way we could watch it during the day. Just something to think about!

[Mr Peabody]

If you play video games LCD is also better. Burn in on Plasma is not as big of a concern as it once was but I haven't heard it being totally eliminated either. Plasma is still unanimously the winner on picture quality although LCD is making gains.

[Mr Peabody]

BTW, Pix is AR's whipping boy so go ahead and give him a kick. He loves his role. If we didn't abuse him he wouldn't feel loved.

[lithnights]

Regarding the TV watching area, while it does have some light (like any room I'd imagine), it's not a huge amount of light, and no direct light. I actually opened a new thread to discuss that since it's sort of off topic of this original post.

see http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=33759

If you don't mind, could you take a look at that thread and click on the link with pictures? It may help describe the room better and may affect answers.

Oh yea, and no video games.. just basic TV, sports, and movie watching.

Thanks all!

[GregLee]

Here are a couple of things that might interest you: (1) a very cheap but nice looking TV stand available from Sears for $50. It's only 4 feet wide, however, and rather low. It is Tech Craft Flat Panel TV Stand, model #SBF48. I bought one a couple of weeks ago.

(2) I just noticed a press release for a line of Axiom "on wall" speakers being introduced in May. They are very shallow. Axiom speakers are, generally speaking, good values, but not inexpensive. I have Axiom speakers in two HT setups. Go to axiomaudio.com. Edit: The product announcement for the speakers I mentioned, I now see, is listed in a side box at the right in this very forum.