Why buy Tube amps versus a transitor amp?

[BallinWithNash]

I have used the search bar and couldn't find anything to really answer my question and searched around on google. The only thing every one keeps saying is that they sound warmer. Define warmer, I mean are they not really bright? Is there any other reason for buying a tube amp other than they sound warmer?

Thank you in advance, BWN

[Hyfi]

Here is a good way to think about it.

Have you ever heard an Album played back on a turntable and reasonable system?

Then listen to the same music on CD.

What you notice is the differences between an analog sound wave (bell curve) and a digital wave (_| |_) all squares. So a typical cymbol crash on vinyl, or most tube amps, will be a nice SHHHHHSSSSSssssss until you don't hear it anymore, just as if you were standing next to it. With a CD, the same cymbol crash may just sound like SHHSS and end very abruptly.

So if you use that same scenario and apply it to SS vs Tubes, you get a picture.

Next think of bass. Many SS amps give deep powerful room shaking bass, but does the sound of the note reflect to resonance of the string it was plucked from? Same note on a tube amp and one may be able to tell if it was a flat wound or round wound string, acoustic or hollow body and so on.

Now all that is not saying that many high end SS amps don't do all those thing right, it was merely for an example of what differences one may hear comparing the two.

Many feel that having a Tube Pre-Amp with a SS amp is the way to go and for many years I have been doing it that way. My recent setup is an all tube dual mono pre, with a hybrid , tube in-ss out, amplifier.

Take some time, find a high end dealer in your area and have a listen to some CJ gear or BAT, VAC and others. Keep in mind, all these systems will also have speakers that will reveal all the nuances provided by the front end.

I hope that helps, if you lived close enough I would demo it for you by swapping out my Stratos for the Conterpoint. Both great but totally different sound.

[RGA]

I agree with the following (provided you have speakers designed to operate on low power - bass is only an issue for tube amps if the speaker is asking for more power than the amp is capable. The way around that is to purchase easy to drive speakers - and then the bass IMO sounds better on SETs than 1000 watt SS),

The analogy I like

" I realised then what it is about solid state audio that makes me uneasy and dissatisfied. It's analogous to the feeling I get working under fluorescent strip lights with their 50Hz switching cycle. It's light right enough, but it makes me feel uneasy and eventually fatigued.

I think that in a similar way, probably the majority of mainstream audio gear fails more or less to transfer to the listener the essential subtle information that makes the artifice of reproduced music acceptable to the brain. Perhaps because of the non-linearity of solid-state amplification, the liberal use of negative feedback, and the non-time and phase coherent nature of most speakers, the information is lost or scrambled. Without it, performances may well have those attributes so beloved of audio reviewers and salesmen like slam and transparency, but as musical events they are reduced to the value of background tunes in lifts or supermarket music.

It's rather like comparing the richness of a Rembrandt to a join-the-dots picture in a puzzle magazine. They're both pictures. But that's where the similarity ends." Kevin F http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Other/Audio-Note/Level-3-system/general/345133.html

[E-Stat]

Is there any other reason for buying a tube amp other than they sound warmer?
Thirty years ago, Harry Pearson commented in his review of the Threshold Stasis 2 amp that while it had superlative response at the extremes, the Audio Research D-150 was more faithful to the midrange. The midrange? Why is that difficult? Every amp covers that range, right? Only some have good bass control. Only some have wonderful top end extension and the ability to convey the natural air of music. Both of which are characteristic of the Stasis (I later bought a Stasis 3).

It took me nearly twenty years to fully understand what he meant. It is all about the heart of all music - the midrange. While there are exceptions in both camps, I find that the nature of a tube amp's non-linearity (which falls into our perceptual blindspot) conveys the harmonic structure of musical instruments and voice more faithfully. My priorities have changed over the years.

rw

[3LB]

Have ever heard a good tube amp/ speaker combo? They have a distinct sound. Are they better than solid state? are they "more accurate" or "faithful" or whatever? does it matter?

Find someone or some place that has a tube amp set-up, then listen to it...if you really like it, buy it. If not, no big whoop...its a personal preference, not a club.

The only real reason to buy anything is be cause you like it. Dogmas need not apply. I own a TT and some vinyl LPs. Does that mean I don't like CDs? Nope, I just like the way some vinyl sounds. I buy both.

In audio, its ok to keep a harem.

[BallinWithNash]

I have never heard a tube amp or an album played back on a turntable sorry haha. And so basically your saying Tube amps will only make a big difference if you use vinyl? Cause if you use CD's there is really no benefit of buying a Tube amp? .... I'm 18 and everything I have is on CD's but I listen to older rock, country, and alternative. Example, (A lot of Taylor Swift), Foo Fighter's, (A lot of Matchbox Twenty), Shinedown, The Cult. I even have a Three Dog Night CD. But I do not own any records and I mainly listen to "newer" stuff and you can't get them on vinyl (at least I don't think so). So should I just stick with SS amps?
Right now I have a Marantz 2240 as my receiver and I like the way that sounds versus most newer products but like I said I have never heard a tube amp.

[02audionoob]

There's nothing to say a tube amp wouldn't make great music with a digital source. I don't think anyone here means to say that. There's just a similarity in concept in that solid-state amps might do some things better than tube amps, but the tube amps seem to get the midrange right. To some extent, that comparison applies to vinyl and CD.

[BallinWithNash]

Ok, thank you guys again and another question; So I play video games (xbox 360) and have surround I want to keep this but if you get a tube amp it seems like that you would have that set up to a different set of speakers just for listening to music, and should you bi-amp if you have a tube amp?

[3LB]

it depends on your surround setup. Do you have seperate amps for your "surround system currently? (are we to assume a 5.1 system?) What is your current setup?

[BallinWithNash]

Ok, actually what i think i am going to do is just get surround in a box haha ... and then when i get some more money go listen to some tube amps and speakers but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?

[E-Stat]

but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?
If you have the extra budget for bi-amping, then go for it. As for me, I use 300 watt per channel tube amps with my stats.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

I wouldn't want to use my tube's life playing video games, nor do you want to mix tubes and solid state in a surround set up if you really care about the sound.

Biamping is a choice and not a necessity. I really don't think many hear biamp. Just to get a taste of tubes there are some Chinese tube amps that can be had cheap. A friend of mine bought a 25x2 integrated with EL-34's for $150.00, nothing I ever heard of. It only had two inputs. For the price I was impressed, I thought it would run me out of the room with offensive sound. The amp had all the stereotypes of older tube amps, bluming bass and highs a bit rolled off but the overall fidelity was probably on par with a decent receiver.

Also, keep in mind all tube amps are not created equal, nor do they sound the same, the vary as much as solid state.

This may be more than you ever wanted to know about biamping: http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Here's some good basic info on tube amps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

In addition, to what's been said tubes give the sound stage a depth and a presence absent with solid state. I say "it lifts it off the paper". A friend of mine puts it well when he says, " it puts the flesh on the bone".

Wait until you get a turntable for your car.

[poppachubby]

In addition, to what's been said tubes give the sound stage a depth and a presence absent with solid state. I say "it lifts it off the paper". A friend of mine puts it well when he says, " it puts the flesh on the bone".



Agreed. If you are the type who puts music on and just listens, stick with the SS. If you are the type who puts music on and tries to sit in a sweet spot, to critically listen to a recording, try the tubes.

I love just hearing the music, but listening intellectually is fun too, especially with the right recording. The Cowboy Junkies recorded "The Trinity Sessions" in a church using only one mic. Each song was cut in one take, live from the floor. Listening to the playback with my Golden Tube, the entire scene is recreated through my speakers, as though I am there watching and listening. Great stuff...

I listen to alot of music with horns and brass. The tubes are able to deliver really sweet tone on sounds which otherwise can be harsh with the wrong synergy or set up.

As a musician I have used a tube amp for years. In that industry, SS literally tries it's hardest to recreate the tube sound. Some amps will have a "Tube Driver" switch or some gimmicky angle that's supposed to give a warm and balanced tone. There's less argument in the instrument amplification world regarding the benfit of tubes.

In audio, we are always stuck at "to each their own" and "let's look at some measurements". IMO, tubes walk all over SS to the point of being unfair. Talk about a handicap. SS is stuck in a wheelchair. Tubes come and dump SS out of the chair, onto the ground and say "ok get up and fight". So, so unfair...

[Feanor]

...

In audio, we are always stuck at "to each their own" and "let's look at some measurements". IMO, tubes walk all over SS to the point of being unfair. Talk about a handicap. SS is stuck in a wheelchair. Tubes come and dump SS out of the chair, onto the ground and say "ok get up and fight". So, so unfair...
OK, Chad, talk's cheap. When are you bringing your Golden Tube over to my place to prove your point!

Email me.

[Hyfi]

Ok, actually what i think i am going to do is just get surround in a box haha ... and then when i get some more money go listen to some tube amps and speakers but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?

You could bi-amp by using an SS amp for the bass and tubes for the top end also.

[Hyfi]

I have never heard a tube amp or an album played back on a turntable sorry haha. And so basically your saying Tube amps will only make a big difference if you use vinyl? Cause if you use CD's there is really no benefit of buying a Tube amp? .... I'm 18 and everything I have is on CD's but I listen to older rock, country, and alternative. Example, (A lot of Taylor Swift), Foo Fighter's, (A lot of Matchbox Twenty), Shinedown, The Cult. I even have a Three Dog Night CD. But I do not own any records and I mainly listen to "newer" stuff and you can't get them on vinyl (at least I don't think so). So should I just stick with SS amps?
Right now I have a Marantz 2240 as my receiver and I like the way that sounds versus most newer products but like I said I have never heard a tube amp.

It was just an analogy, not a statement that tubes are only for vinyl. If you play an album on an SS amp and then the same CD, you will most likely enjoy the vinyl over the CD.

Well recorded jazz and fusion CDs sound incredible on both SS or tubes, a crappy disk will also sound like crap through both.

[Hyfi]

My priorities have changed over the years.


Luckily, this just happened for me over the last year with a little dumb luck having decent gear fall in my lap. As a bass player, I was all about room shaking bass without needing a sub and my Stratos-Dynaudio combo does it well. When I switched to the Counterpoint Clearfield combo, the lowest end was missing but in place was the best midrange I have heard in my home. It took some time to get used to it but with all the tone, timber, soundstage, and other improvments it was starting to get easier to overlook the lack of room shaking bass. I have recently spent a lot of time blending my sub into the latter combo with some decent luck.

[Hyfi]

Ok, actually what i think i am going to do is just get surround in a box haha ... and then when i get some more money go listen to some tube amps and speakers but should you bi-amp with tube amps or no? Obviously it would depend on your speakers to but lets just say you had some 3-way floorstanding speakers would you want to bi-amp with a tube amp or just get a more powerful one?

Depending on what HT receiver you get, if it has RCA line outs for each channel so you could, if you wanted to, use a separate amp for each channel.

I have a main 2 channel system and an HT receiver. I use the front Pre outs from the HT to a Line in on my 2 channel pre. I set the volume to 1 oclock on my VAC pre amp and then the whole thing is controlled by the HT remote and system.

I also have my sub going through a selector switch and can use it with both the main or the HT setup.

Options and configurations are endless.

[JoeE SP9]

For me a hybrid preamp driving bi-amped "stats" works well. I use tubes to drive my stats and SS to drive my subs.

[blackraven]

Take a listen to a Van Alstine Fet Valve 550 amp. As a Hybrid amp with over 500wpc at 4ohms, it has plenty of deep fast bass along with that tube sound. Its even faster, more dynamic and better with the new double die option.

[02audionoob]

Take a listen to a Van Alstine Fet Valve 550 amp. As a Hybrid amp with over 500wpc at 4ohms, it has plenty of deep fast bass along with that tube sound. Its even faster, more dynamic and better with the new double die option.

How would one go about doing that? Frank sells direct...right?

[Mr Peabody]

I believe if I was to mix a system with tubes and solid state biamping would be the way to go with SS on the bottom and tubes on top.

[blackraven]

How would one go about doing that? Frank sells direct...right?


Frank has a 30day no questions asked money back return policy. He gets very few returned and the ones he does, he resells at a discount. People that buy his gear usually hold on to it, thats why you see very few pieces on the used market.

I'm not saying its the best gear in the world but it is a lot of bang for the buck and a great way to get into tubes at a very reasonable price. It out performs stuff costing hundreds to thousands more and all his gear, even the solid state, is made to have a tube like sound.

[02audionoob]

Frank has a 30day no questions asked money back return policy. He gets very few returned and the ones he does, he resells at a discount. People that buy his gear usually hold on to it, thats why you see very few pieces on the used market.

I'm not saying its the best gear in the world but it is a lot of bang for the buck and a great way to get into tubes at a very reasonable price. It out performs stuff costing hundreds to thousands more and all his gear, even the solid state, is made to have a tube like sound.

I meant to ask this question in the context of speaking to the OP. If you're not a serious customer with the thought of actually keeping the gear, I don't suppose you'd want to buy it even with a generous return policy. You can't just go have a casual listen, which is how I first heard modern tube equipment.

[blackraven]

I meant to ask this question in the context of speaking to the OP. If you're not a serious customer with the thought of actually keeping the gear, I don't suppose you'd want to buy it even with a generous return policy. You can't just go have a casual listen, which is how I first heard modern tube equipment.


True, but Frank doesn't mind sending out his gear for in home audition because he thinks that once people hear it they will want to buy it. And he is usually right. The kicker is you have to pay for it and then get your money back. Frank is a very honest and reputable man.

[Ajani]

I believe if I was to mix a system with tubes and solid state biamping would be the way to go with SS on the bottom and tubes on top.

I believe that is the most common way to mix the two (and probably the most sensible as you get the benefits of both and minimize the negatives of each)...

Actually, my favourite small to medium room setup used a hybrid integrated (tube pre and SS power)....

[Ajani]

I have used the search bar and couldn't find anything to really answer my question and searched around on google. The only thing every one keeps saying is that they sound warmer. Define warmer, I mean are they not really bright? Is there any other reason for buying a tube amp other than they sound warmer?

Thank you in advance, BWN

As you can probably tell from all the responses in this thread, there are benefits to either tube or SS... and of course you could always mix and match...

Hardcore tube fans (like my arch-nemesis, PoppaC :ciappa: ) find that tubes smoke SS... On the other hand, diehard SS fans think the exact opposite... some of us like both... so you really need to try them for yourself to determine which is right for you...

Something that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread is price range... If I'm not mistaken, decent tube setups aren't cheap, so it's usually easier to find competent SS amplification on a limited budget... also you need to factor in the possible cost to replace any worn out or defective tubes (assuming they aren't covered under warranty)...

[Mr Peabody]

Splitting hairs but with biamping you'd get a straight tube top end and the bottom would be similar to hybrid, where a hybrid is, well hybrid, on both top and bottom. I feel a hybrid although maybe coming close still isn't going to give the midrange magic a straight tube presentation will.

[BallinWithNash]

Alright guys, So I am definitely going to go listen to tube amps when I get more $$$ to upgrade because it seems like mostly everyone agrees that they give the midrange a magical experience. As for now I am content with my Marantz 2240 and I was thinking about mixing the two when bi-amping (SS and tube) but I wasn't sure about it but you guys covered that for me so thank you! In the near future you will see me posting questions about which tube amp/speakers to buy that will complement each other haha. And Mr.P a turntable for your car? I have heard of no such thing.

[Mr Peabody]

Yeah, you think texting is a bear while driving try flipping an album side. Pot holes are a challenge too.

[02audionoob]

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/4/44493/s_welk.jpg

[poppachubby]

You have any isolation techniques for that noob? Actually never mind...that redneck looks pretty happy with the sound.

"Gee Ma, listen to this here fidelity. Yeeehaw!!"

[poppachubby]

Alright guys, So I am definitely going to go listen to tube amps when I get more $$$ to upgrade because it seems like mostly everyone agrees that they give the midrange a magical experience. As for now I am content with my Marantz 2240 and I was thinking about mixing the two when bi-amping (SS and tube) but I wasn't sure about it but you guys covered that for me so thank you! In the near future you will see me posting questions about which tube amp/speakers to buy that will complement each other haha. And Mr.P a turntable for your car? I have heard of no such thing.

Hey man, talk to Nash and have him take you to some local shops with tube amps. Have a listen. It doesn't have to cost big money for tubes, especially if you go the pre-amp route. Grant Fidelity and Pacific Valve are 2 great online retailers who sell some great chinese gear for cheap. BTW, your Marantz is an amazing machine, never sell it. You could input a great tube pre instead...

http://grantfidelity.com/site/P307 .....$350 Pre-Amp

http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/P307lf2.jpg

http://grantfidelity.com/site/sheng_ya_A80CS_hybrid_integrated_amplifier ...$500 Hybrid

http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/A80CS%20front.jpg

http://www.pacificvalve.us/YSAudioSymphR.html ...$561 Pre-Amp

http://www.pacificvalve.us/images/WEB-14.jpg

http://www.pacificvalve.us/BDC222.html ...$700 Amp

http://www.pacificvalve.us/images/DC-222_Stock_Picture.jpg

[02audionoob]

You have any isolation techniques for that noob? Actually never mind...that redneck looks pretty happy with the sound.

"Gee Ma, listen to this here fidelity. Yeeehaw!!"

Suppose my 02audiopods could handle the highways?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2726/4392579608_06da8b11ee_m.jpg

I think that "redneck" is Lawrence Welk.

[audio amateur]

http://grantfidelity.com/site/P307


Too bad the otherwise nice design is ruined by the cheap writing atop the transformer.

[RGA]

To go along with Grant Fidelity the tube DAC-09 is on sale for $300. I have completed my review and sooner or later it will be up on the dagogo website.

It's not as interesting to look at as some but it is a very good jack of all trades device - it can be used as an external DAC for a cd player or for computers (as it also has USB connections) it is a full function preamplifier (can use the DAC at the same time) and can be used in either tube or Solid State mode. Very well built for the money and a high degree of functionality. I had both the silver and black units in for review - I prefer it in black.

http://grantfidelity.com/site/Grant_Fidelity_Tube_DAC-09

It also served nicely as a preamp for the Shengya PM 150 monoblocks. Though it's better as a dac than a preamp, you have to factor in the price. It's a nice cheap way to get into tubes and it will improve virtually any budget cd player. It greatly improved my mega changer making it something worth listening to and it also improved my $800 Cambridge single disc CD-6 player. As a DAC alone it's worth the money. Throw in a pretty decent preamp and a headphone amp and USB DAC it's all gravy.

[BallinWithNash]

Haha ok I have now seen a turntable in a car ... and poppa yea that Marantz aint going anywhere haha ... I love that thing way to much to even think about parting with it. And yea poppa you are right I could go pre out with my Marantz into a tube setup.

[poppachubby]

Haha ok I have now seen a turntable in a car ... and poppa yea that Marantz aint going anywhere haha ... I love that thing way to much to even think about parting with it. And yea poppa you are right I could go pre out with my Marantz into a tube setup.

...or pre in...

[Feanor]

http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/4/44493/s_welk.jpg
Sure, I remember that. They were offered in Chrysler products for a couple of years circa 1959. A really stupid idea that didn't last long -- can you imaging the tracking force that must have been necessary?? Scarely.

I never heard one myself.

[GMichael]

Splitting hairs but with biamping you'd get a straight tube top end and the bottom would be similar to hybrid, where a hybrid is, well hybrid, on both top and bottom. I feel a hybrid although maybe coming close still isn't going to give the midrange magic a straight tube presentation will.

Are there no hybrids that have tube pre-pros and hybrid tube/SS amps? If not, I think we just found a new market.

[Hyfi]

Are there no hybrids that have tube pre-pros and hybrid tube/SS amps? If not, I think we just found a new market.

Counterpoint amps of the NPS line have tube in and ss out. Too late!

[GMichael]

Counterpoint amps of the NPS line have tube in and ss out. Too late!

But are there any with tube in, and tube & SS out?

[Ajani]

Splitting hairs but with biamping you'd get a straight tube top end and the bottom would be similar to hybrid, where a hybrid is, well hybrid, on both top and bottom. I feel a hybrid although maybe coming close still isn't going to give the midrange magic a straight tube presentation will.

Are you talking about a Tube Pre with a Tube amp for the mid and high frequencies and either a SS or hybrid amp for the low end?

That sounds like a coherence nightmare.... Just my opinion but I really don't believe you can get a coherent sound if you treat High, Mids and Lows so differently...

[Hyfi]

But are there any with tube in, and tube & SS out?

I got ya now, no my bad.

[Mr Peabody]

The turntable thing started out as a joke but..... who knew.....

[GMichael]

Are you talking about a Tube Pre with a Tube amp for the mid and high frequencies and either a SS or hybrid amp for the low end?

That sounds like a coherence nightmare.... Just my opinion but I really don't believe you can get a coherent sound if you treat High, Mids and Lows so differently...

Would this be a lot different than all those speakers that have plate amps driving their own woofers? I'm sure it's not easy to get right, but who does things the easy way around here?

[Feanor]

Would this be a lot different than all those speakers that have plate amps driving their own woofers? I'm sure it's not easy to get right, but who does things the easy way around here?
Good point, GM.

I would say it isn't any different. Nor do I share Ajani's concern about coherence; I'd say a lot of people who biamp or triamp do, in fact, mix amp technologies.

[Ajani]

Would this be a lot different than all those speakers that have plate amps driving their own woofers? I'm sure it's not easy to get right, but who does things the easy way around here?

I doubt it would be much different, nor do I think it would be too much different from speakers that use totally different materials for tweeters, mids and woofers (such as aluminum, kevlar and paper)... It's just my opinion, but I've never found such combinations wholly convincing....

[02audionoob]

Sure, I remember that. They were offered in Chrysler products for a couple of years circa 1959. A really stupid idea that didn't last long -- can you imaging the tracking force that must have been necessary?? Scarely.

I never heard one myself.

...and Highway Hi-Fi, as it was called, was not only a stupid idea...it used a very limited series of proprietary records from Columbia/CBS.

[GMichael]

I doubt it would be much different, nor do I think it would be too much different from speakers that use totally different materials for tweeters, mids and woofers (such as aluminum, kevlar and paper)... It's just my opinion, but I've never found such combinations wholly convincing....

I'm sure it's a two edged sword. Harder to do, but more flexable if done right.

[3LB]

I'd say a lot of people who biamp or triamp do, in fact, mix amp technologies.
Yes they do, and to good effect. There is no reason to believe that integration would be a problem...unless of course crossover points were all over the place. Coming from a single driver frame of mind, your middle range octaves should be covered by as wide a freq band as possible - one amp/one driver.

I see no reason why using a tube amp for say, 100hz and up (maybe an SS for a super tweeter, unless of course your tubes don't rolloff too bad) with an SS for sub-bass would be a ptoblem as long as we're talking about decent quality drivers and amps...and provided your crossover points aren't too close.

[Feanor]

Yes they do, and to good effect. There is no reason to believe that integration would be a problem...unless of course crossover points were all over the place. Coming from a single driver frame of mind, your middle range octaves should be covered by as wide a freq band as possible - one amp/one driver.

I see no reason why using a tube amp for say, 100hz and up (maybe an SS for a super tweeter, unless of course your tubes don't rolloff too bad) with an SS for sub-bass would be a ptoblem as long as we're talking about decent quality drivers and amps...and provided your crossover points aren't too close.
That's the way I see it.

Crossover position and slope are always important. For bi- or tri-amping doubtless the best way to go is to bypass your speaker's built-in crossover(s) and use active crossover upstream of the amps. From what I've heard, overall a higher order, e.g. 4th order, crossover is better since it restricts each drive to its optimum range and minimizes the issue of phase differences between the drivers; (this applies to both active and passive crossovers). Not all speakers designers agree with this approach however.

[Ajani]

I think you gentlemen are getting far more technical than my original point: I wasn't refering to time, phase or the space time continuum... So let me dumb down the discussion and use some basic illustration:

I believe that different technologies eg tube vs SS generally have different sonic properties... same as with different materials used to make speaker drivers... There's a reason for the stereotypes of metal dome tweeters having more of a zing than soft dome, horns having a cupped hands/shouty sound and tube amps being syrupy in the midrange compared to SS... Essentially I think each technology/driver colours the sound in its own way (with less and less colouration as you move to higher quality and generally more expensive designs)...

So if I divide music into high, mid and low frequencies, and use one tech/material for highs, a seperate for mids and another for lows, then each frequency is colured in a different way, thus making the sound less coherent as a whole...

So to use a visual example... Imagine a picture broken down into 3 parts: top, middle and bottom.... If all 3 parts are very slightly coloured red, then chances are that unless you directly compared the picture to the original, that you wouldn't notice the red tint... However if you had a slight red tent at the top, blue in the middle and yellow at the bottom, it would be far more obvious that the picture is off in some way...

Now I know that we each have different sonic priorities/realism triggers and to some persons mixing and matching sounds fine... I remember auditioning a monitor/sub combo and thinking the sub was too obvious and killed the sound... while my friend who accompanied me loved the combo... So my initial point was that "I" can't imagine mixing and matching SS and Tubes amps, in a bi-amping situation, sounding cohesive.... (note that's totally different from mixing a tube pre with a SS power - I can explain the difference if it's unclear)...

[GMichael]

I have read the views on different materials in drivers having different sonic properties. It makes sense, but don’t we run into that in the real world? Drums are made of a different material than a horn or stringed instrument. Even if we were to restrict ourselves to only the piano, aren’t many of the wires single stranded while others are wrapped multiple times. Would it be better or worse to have different sources portrayed by different materials or driven by different amps.?
I don’t pretend to know the answer. Just posting my thoughts.

[audio amateur]

So let me dumb down the discussion and use some basic illustration:
I get your point, but I don't believe this 'incoherence' would be as noticeable as you suggest it to be, especially if you're running most of the frequency spectrum with one type of amp. For low frequencies anyway, I imagine it would be very difficult to notice any differences between tube and SS, especially in a configuration such as this one (where one is using different amps to power his speakers).

[3LB]

I think you gentlemen are getting far more technical than my original point: I wasn't refering to time, phase or the space time continuum... So let me dumb down the discussion and use some basic illustration:

I believe that different technologies eg tube vs SS generally have different sonic properties... same as with different materials used to make speaker drivers... There's a reason for the stereotypes of metal dome tweeters having more of a zing than soft dome, and tube amps being syrupy in the midrange compared to SS... Essentially I think each technology/driver colours the sound in its own way (with less and less colouration as you move to higher quality and generally more expensive designs)...

So if I divide music into high, mid and low frequencies, and use one tech/material for highs, a seperate for mids and another for lows, then each frequency is colured in a different way, thus making the sound less coherent as a whole...

So to use a visual example... Imagine a picture broken down into 3 parts: top, middle and bottom.... If all 3 parts are very slightly coloured red, then chances are that unless you directly compared the picture to the original, that you wouldn't notice the red tint... However if you had a slight red tent at the top, blue in the middle and yellow at the bottom, it would be far more obvious that the picture is off in some way...

Now I know that we each have different sonic priorities/realism triggers and to some persons mixing and matching sounds fine... I remember auditioning a monitor/sub combo and thinking the sub was too obvious and killed the sound... while my friend who accompanied me loved the combo... So my initial point was that "I" can't imagine mixing and matching SS and Tubes amps, in a bi-amping situation, sounding cohesive.... (note that's totally different from mixing a tube pre with a SS power - I can explain the difference if it's unclear)...
No need to dumb it down, unless it helps you to keep up;)

What I was referring to was, IMO, the best way to integrate any bi/tri amp configuration, it also jives with my approach to 3-way speaker design...perhaps it was TMI. But then again, I did quote Feanor.

I don't imagine much of anything with regards to audio, preferring experince when it comes to making up my mind about something.

I do agree you with that our own ears make the best benchmark for what we do and don't like.

[Ajani]

I have read the views on different materials in drivers having different sonic properties. It makes sense, but don’t we run into that in the real world? Drums are made of a different material than a horn or stringed instrument. Even if we were to restrict ourselves to only the piano, aren’t many of the wires single stranded while others are wrapped multiple times. Would it be better or worse to have different sources portrayed by different materials or driven by different amps.?
I don’t pretend to know the answer. Just posting my thoughts.

Interesting point and certainly there may be better materials for replaying the sound of different instruments, but unless the recording has each instrument sound seperated and sent to a specific driver (tuned to that instrument) then I don't see the different driver materials being benifiical... We just end up with bass mids and highs each sounding slightly different (now how noticeable those differences are is the question)...

[Ajani]

I get your point, but I don't believe this 'incoherence' would be as noticeable as you suggest it to be, especially if you're running most of the frequency spectrum with one type of amp. For low frequencies anyway, I imagine it would be very difficult to notice any differences between tube and SS, especially in a configuration such as this one (where one is using different amps to power his speakers).

For you probably not :devil:

Seriously though, I think it really comes down to the individual... some persons swear by single driver speakers and can't stand the sound of a multi-driver arrangement (my theory is that persons often blame the crossover, when the issue is possibly more due to the mix match of driver materials).... Other persons enjoy hybrids with ribbon tweeters and cone woofers and have no issue with coherence...

[Ajani]

No need to dumb it down, unless it helps you to keep up;)

What I was referring to was, IMO, the best way to integrate any bi/tri amp configuration, it also jives with my approach to 3-way speaker design...perhaps it was TMI. But then again, I did quote Feanor.

I don't imagine much of anything with regards to audio, preferring experince when it comes to making up my mind about something.

I do agree you with that our own ears make the best benchmark for what we do and don't like.

I'm kinda slow today (and most days) so I need to keep it really simple :)

When I talk about 'imagining', I project based on what I've heard so far... I've yet to hear a hybrid speaker/ multiple driver material speaker or sub/monitor combo that sounds cohesive... If I ever hear one that does, then of course my opinion would change.... However, I know many persons have heard those speakers/combos that I've auditioned and had little or no problem with the coherence, so I think it comes down to sonic priorities and realism triggers...

[Feanor]

...

So if I divide music into high, mid and low frequencies, and use one tech/material for highs, a seperate for mids and another for lows, then each frequency is colured in a different way, thus making the sound less coherent as a whole...

...
I think you make this point quite clearly. And it's reasonable enough that different amps will colour the sound in their range differently. However as you'll agree, exactly the same can be said for the different speaker drivers that cover those ranges. So with regard to both speaker drivers and amps, you choose the ones that (a) match the range of frequency response for which they are selected, and (b) don't clash with each other in a disagreeable manner.

The relevance of crossover slope, as you'll likely also agree, is that a steep slope miniumizes the overlap of the different drivers and, in case of mulitamping, the amps so that you don't get an incohesive mix of the characteristics of the two in the same frequency range.

[Ajani]

I think you make this point quite clearly. And it's reasonable enough that different amps will colour the sound in their range differently. However as you'll agree, exactly the same can be said for the different speaker drivers that cover those ranges. So with regard to both speaker drivers and amps, you choose the ones that (a) match the range of frequency response for which they are selected, and (b) don't clash with each other in a disagreeable manner.

The relevance of crossover slope, as you'll likely also agree, is that a steep slope miniumizes the overlap of the different drivers and, in case of mulitamping, the amps so that you don't get an incohesive mix of the characteristics of the two in the same frequency range.

(a) can be done with good engineering... (b) is where I find it gets tricky - finding driver materials that don't clash or SS versus tube amps that are complementary to the point where you don't notice the difference...

[Mr Peabody]

Ajani, I've never biamped yet personally. I always imagined that would be the way I'd do it, tubes on mid/high and SS on bottom. It could work possibly if the crossover was low enough or the particular tube and SS was close in response or character. You have me thinking now because if one used an amp like Krell with an iron grip bass response and the tube amp was even slightly bluming in the bass it could have a blending issue. So your point does have merit.

Not the same at all but when I mixed tube and solid state in a surround sound set up it was very short lived. They did not blend at all and I found it extremely annoying. The mains were driven by a tube amp and center/rear by SS.

In hearing others and setting up others gear in biamping situations I've been impressed with the results and would like to try it some day.

[audio amateur]

In hearing others and setting up others gear in biamping situations I've been impressed with the results and would like to try it some day.
I thought Dynaudio didn't believe in bi-amping/wiring

[JoeE SP9]

I'm not sure this qualifies as bi-amping:
I use a hybrid preamp.
I use tubes to drive my ESL's from 80Hz up.
I use SS to drive my subs from 80Hz down.
My crossover has 12dB slopes.

I have never noticed any coherence problems. My problems were related to the differing dispersion patterns between panels and cones. Two subs and a crossover point below 100Hz finally made it work for me.

[Mr Peabody]

AA, true, Dynaudio does not offer but one set of binding posts. The Heresy's I have can be biamped. I can't believe I love a pair of Klipsch this much.

[Ajani]

AA, true, Dynaudio does not offer but one set of binding posts. The Heresy's I have can be biamped. I can't believe I love a pair of Klipsch this much.

$400 Emotiva CD Player and Klipsch Speakers... Mr Peabody, what's happening to you???

Are we going to see you trading in the Dyns for a Bose 901 soon? :p

[E-Stat]

I have never noticed any coherence problems. My problems were related to the differing dispersion patterns between panels and cones.
I find an audible difference using dipolar mains and monopole woofers when reproducing full range sources such as piano. Naturally, I would choose using specialized dipolar SL subs.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/ub1.jpg

rw

[Ajani]

I find an audible difference using dipolar mains and monopole woofers when reproducing full range sources such as piano. Naturally, I would choose using specialized dipolar SL subs.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/ub1.jpg

rw

What does that garage door have to do with a discussion about coherence? :arf:

[Mr Peabody]

901's? I have to draw the line some where..... but I should never say never :) Actually, I fell for the horn sound back when I used to sell Electro-Voice. Since their stuff really wasn't for the home it sort of got put on the back burner or buried. Until recently I had no respect for Klipsch, as you may have read. I heard a friend's Klipschorns that can do structural damage and remain clear and clean doing it, I was mighty impressed. He educated me on the Heritage line and I found the little Heresy III's and they were reasonable. So I bought a pair to play with. I intended on putting them in my second system and maybe bringing them into the main system occasionally but I haven't unhooked them from the main system since hooking them up. They sound pretty good with the CJ gear. I can't compare them to the Dyn's, just two different animals. I really miss the bass response of the Dyn's and they are very refined but the Heresy has a live sound and dynamic that's addictive. The Dyn's are in their place with the HT system hooked to them and the Heresy's are sort of in front of them with the CJ amps hooked to them. The Heresy is just short enough and with the slight tilt up it doesn't block much. I guess like that it's still a decor violation but that's why the wife put me and my equipment in the lower level :) If I could fit a Cornwall in there.... it's possible you could have seen a convert.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/heritage/

[Feanor]

What does that garage door have to do with a discussion about coherence? :arf:
:lol:

Good one! :thumbsup:

[Feanor]

I have used the search bar and couldn't find anything to really answer my question and searched around on google. The only thing every one keeps saying is that they sound warmer. Define warmer, I mean are they not really bright? Is there any other reason for buying a tube amp other than they sound warmer?

Thank you in advance, BWN
I've never owned a tube amp -- though I use tube preamp to good effect.

With my Maggies I'd prefer 50-60 wpc which limits the tube choices a bit.

I'd like to try a pair of AES Six Pacs, (here (http://www.audioelectronicsupply.com/cgi-bin/audioelectronicsupply.com/view_services.cgi?request=detail&dept_id=4&aisle_id=41&prod_num=SIX_PACS)). I'd have to find them on Audiogon, though.

http://www.audioelectronicsupply.com/graphics/products/large/six_pacs.jpg

Another option for me might be a Bob Latino "ST-120" amp in kit form, (here (http://bob01605.50webs.com/)) -- building this would give me a cool retirement project ...

http://www.tubes4hifi.com/VTA120top.JPG

[E-Stat]

What does that garage door have to do with a discussion about coherence? :arf:
LOL! Kinda pricey garage doors at that. Brian Cheney did a live-vs-recorded demonstration at CES last year where he said dipole subs worked better. In his case, he used four subs - two of which faced backwards.

He speaks of his experimentation here. (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=280647&)

rw

[poppachubby]

I can't imagine life without the Golden Tube. I'm looking at an Eico HF-85 pre amp now...

[Ajani]

901's? I have to draw the line some where..... but I should never say never :) Actually, I fell for the horn sound back when I used to sell Electro-Voice. Since their stuff really wasn't for the home it sort of got put on the back burner or buried. Until recently I had no respect for Klipsch, as you may have read. I heard a friend's Klipschorns that can do structural damage and remain clear and clean doing it, I was mighty impressed. He educated me on the Heritage line and I found the little Heresy III's and they were reasonable. So I bought a pair to play with. I intended on putting them in my second system and maybe bringing them into the main system occasionally but I haven't unhooked them from the main system since hooking them up. They sound pretty good with the CJ gear. I can't compare them to the Dyn's, just two different animals. I really miss the bass response of the Dyn's and they are very refined but the Heresy has a live sound and dynamic that's addictive. The Dyn's are in their place with the HT system hooked to them and the Heresy's are sort of in front of them with the CJ amps hooked to them. The Heresy is just short enough and with the slight tilt up it doesn't block much. I guess like that it's still a decor violation but that's why the wife put me and my equipment in the lower level :) If I could fit a Cornwall in there.... it's possible you could have seen a convert.

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/heritage/

Even though audiophiles often claim that midrange is everything, dynamics can be truly mesmerizing... and no matter how much we diss mass market, there is a reason why mm gear often focuses more on dynamics than midrange magic....

I've been intrigued at the prospect of a pair of Heresys and a low powered tube amp for a few years now, but never got the chance to audition such a combo (hopefully one day a SET/HE combo will be in my second system)....

Maybe you should start looking into a flea watt SET integrated for the Heresys...

[mlsstl]

Feanor, here's the gut-rebuild of a Dynaco ST70 I did last year. I bought a junked up non-working ST70 for $80. The only things still original are the chassis and the two output transformers. (Turned out the power transformer was on its last leg and had to be replaced, but that part was one of the weakest points of the original Dynaco design.)

It uses the Triode Electronics driver board with 6L6GC outputs. I use it in a second system and just love it. I know the EL34 has a cult following, but, for me, the 6L6GCs are a serious improvement.

<img src="http://www.rzootoo.com/dynaco/st70mod.jpg">

[Poultrygeist]

I've heard many tube amps but the Single Ended Triodes ( S.E.T.) are my favorites. They only make a few watts and require high efficiency speakers but those few watts are just magical. I hope to have a 300B someday but for now I'm pretty happy with my modded MiniWatt. I can't wait to read the reviews on the new MW below.


http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4&products_id=401

[Mr Peabody]

Is Nikko any good? I saw a pre & power set on craigslist some time back and wondered if I might have passed something up.

[blackraven]

I've heard many tube amps but the Single Ended Triodes ( S.E.T.) are my favorites. They only make a few watts and require high efficiency speakers but those few watts are just magical. I hope to have a 300B someday but for now I'm pretty happy with my modded MiniWatt. I can't wait to read the reviews on the new MW below.


http://www.aloaudio.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4&products_id=401


A few watts! I want an amp that will dim the neighbors lights!

[Feanor]

Feanor, here's the gut-rebuild of a Dynaco ST70 I did last year. I bought a junked up non-working ST70 for $80. The only things still original are the chassis and the two output transformers. (Turned out the power transformer was on its last leg and had to be replaced, but that part was one of the weakest points of the original Dynaco design.)

It uses the Triode Electronics driver board with 6L6GC outputs. I use it in a second system and just love it. I know the EL34 has a cult following, but, for me, the 6L6GCs are a serious improvement.

http://www.rzootoo.com/dynaco/st70mod.jpg
Looks great! :thumbsup:

[Mr Peabody]

I'm with you Blackraven. It's nice you can get a few watts to listening level but I like to know I have watts to spare if I need them.

[Ajani]

I'm with you Blackraven. It's nice you can get a few watts to listening level but I like to know I have watts to spare if I need them.

I think for a second or third system a few watts would be fine... But for the main I still prefer a monster watt amp....

[BallinWithNash]

We all like having big wattage amps ... it just makes us feel better haha

[Poultrygeist]

I too was in the "power race" for years and spent lots of money before I discovered there was a better path toward achieving the sound I craved. After hearing an SET for the first time I sold my high power Classe amp and haven't looked back.

I thought the Classe sounded great but I had no basis for comparison. Looking back I realize that the other 149 watts sucked because it's first watt sucked!

Power is relative as my 2.5 watt SET can drive a pair of back loaded horns to ear bleed levels.

"I think for a second or third system a few watts would be fine" - The GM 70 makes around 12 watts and would work fine in a second or third system but at $35K it may cost more than the bedroom. It will also heat your house and trip your breakers.

Some of the most expensive watts in the world are SET watts.

[poppachubby]

I agree with Poultry. With high efficiency speakers, 40 watts of tube power is very loud. I like to rattle the walls every now and again. My CDP with my current configuration has deafening sound levels, while maintaining a great sound.

If any of you tube lovers would like to know, I am buying an Eico HF 85 preamp with original tubes and re-capping for $100 CDN!!! These sell for 3-4 times that amount with original tubes. Even has the manual. Deal of a lifetime. They are a rural family selling it off, really nice people, thus the really nice price.

Combined with the Golden Tube, I'm in for some sweet sounding music. I now have a power/pre combination that is a giant killing machine. A couple of lifetime pieces, I can rest easy now...

BTW Feanor, let's wait another week or so until I pick the pre up. i would like to hear the combo through the Maggies.

http://cfs3.tistory.com/upload_control/download.blog?fhandle=YmxvZzg4MDYyQGZzMy50aXN0b3J5 LmNvbTovYXR0YWNoLzAvNzguSlBH

[E-Stat]

I think for a second or third system a few watts would be fine... But for the main I still prefer a monster watt amp....
The trick is whether or not the first watt is good. I first learned that lesson with the AR integrated amp long ago. Sounded fine at high levels, but fell apart at low levels. Along the way, I discovered the Conrad-Johnson MV-75A fell into the same category. I remember having high hopes for it as that was an affordable amp back in the 70s. Resolution disappeared at low output.

My trusty old Threshold does very well at the bottom. The simple class A voltage amp handles power to about 2 watts per channel (4 ohms) where the current mirror takes it up to 200 per channel. With the double New Advents, I get pretty loud output at 4 watts. Driven directly by a pair of 12AU7s in the Manley DAC, the result is sweet. I find that well executed simple designs sound better than more complex designs having more gain stages, feedback, etc.

rw

[E-Stat]

...but for now I'm pretty happy with my modded MiniWatt. I can't wait to read the reviews on the new MW below.
VTL proved long ago that you could get great sound using EL84s in triode. Their Tiny Triodes (http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/491vtl/) have enjoyed quite a following. Every once in a while, they appear on Audiogon and are quickly sold.

rw