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f0rge
03-22-2010, 05:37 PM
Ok first of all don't get all judgy on me, I listen to all types of music (exceptions being country and R&B), but my favourite genre is metal. Some of my favourite bands include In Flames, Pantera, All that Remains, Lamb of God, Machinehead, BLS, etc.

Finding speakers, or a combination of speakers and an amp that really brings this type of music to life is not easy, so I'm wondering if you guys have some suggestions for speakers that might be worth looking at.

It's not that I'm unhappy with my current setup, I just wonder if I'm missing out.

Gear I've used/sampled in the past:

Dynaco A25 - I was too young to remember and had to give them back to my dad before I knew any better.

Deftech BP2002TL - found them overly bright and maybe even a little harsh

Paradigm Monitor 9 v4 - found them muddy, almost the opposite of the deftechs (might have been due to poor amplification)

B&W 603 S3 (current setup) - the mids seem thin, hard to explain, music is not as "full" as it should be.

Might be that i'm chasing a white rabbit here, this type of music isn't generally recorded or mastered with the care that you would find in the newest Lady Gaga song or other more mainstream rock.

I've heard Klipsch might be an avenue to explore, but I'm not sure how I feel about the quality of their current lineup.

Any thoughts? WAF is a factor and they should work in an HT setup.

LeRoy
03-22-2010, 06:08 PM
http://www.cerwinvega.com/

Good luck with your research and selections.

LeRoy

poppachubby
03-22-2010, 06:23 PM
Ok first of all don't get all judgy on me.

Judgy? I just finished listening to Madball's Inflitrate the System on my Sound Dynamics 1200 SMT. These are vintage but have an aluminum dome tweeter, 12 inch woofer and 12 inch passive radiator. The metal horns really drive the crunch and brightness of the guitars, while the woofer fills out the low end. I got my azz kicked...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2783/4394710405_98091c2afd_b.jpg



I agree with Leroy. Try the Cerwin Vega CLS 12...

http://www.cerwinvega.com/images/Products/CLS/CLS12.jpg

f0rge
03-22-2010, 06:26 PM
Ok Cerwin Vegas are not going to fly, nor am I 17 again.

In my browsing I've come across some recommendations for Dynaudio Focus 220's, but they're really pushing it budget wise, ideally I'd like to keep it under $1.5k.

Those Sound Dynamics look pretty cool, I'll have to look into them more.

Mr Peabody
03-22-2010, 07:19 PM
Dynaudio is a good suggestion if you have the power. I wouldn't recommend the Focus but the Excite series for your use. The Excite are designed more to be easier to drive and not as polite as the Focus.

Although Cerwin Vega has a certain rep the CLS series are creating quite a buzz for breaking the mold. I'd certainly give the 215's a listen.

The only Klipsch worth the money are the Heritage series. I hear the Palladium are very good but they require a nice bank roll. Klipsch sells direct with a 30 day return.

As much as speakers the amp plays a big part in your sound. Dynaco is not on my list of R&R amps. Not sure what your budget is but look at www.emotiva.com , look for a Krell integrated. Less money and great for the price Adcom separates. These are a bit out of order.

Krell and Dynaudio are a leathel combination. You could also use amps like Bryston.

The CV's or Klipsch really wouldn't need big power but the Klipsch does require a measure of quality because the horns are very revealing.

I actually just ordered a pair of Klipsch Heresy to play with. I may have a pair of Dynaudio Audience 60's for sale at some point if interested.

Depending on how picky you are on looks I personally wouldn't rule out Electro-Voice or maybe Yamaha pro speakers. i see them for sale a lot on Craigslist.

I personally listen to a wide variety of music including Metal. The Dyn's seem to do all genres very well in my opinion but they do require some juice. The Excite I haven't ran personally but the company says the series drivers were specifically designed not to be so demanding on amplifiers.

Expand your horizon and pick up some Tristania. :)

f0rge
03-22-2010, 07:41 PM
should have been more specific, the Vegas are out almost automatically not because of their reputation, but rather their looks

whatever i decide on would be powered by my denon 3808, i used to run separates but the cost was killing me and the pre-amps tend to be more expensive and less state of the art than even low end receivers (gotta have TrueHD and DTS:MA for blurays)

that being said i'm not against a decent 2ch amp/integrated, but then the $$$ start to add up

Mr Peabody
03-22-2010, 08:04 PM
Do you have the Within Temptation Blu ray yet?

With the 3808 you could try the Excite by Dynaudio. You could do two Cornwall with a Heresy III for center channel in the Klipsch Heritage line. I think that would come close to $4k. Did I mention Klipsch will ship for free, not sure if that holds for Canada. I've only heard the Klipschorns but will be posting some impressions after I get my Heresy's in this week. Another option could be to look for the now discontinued Audience series on Audiogon, you may find a good deal.

The Klipsch will give more of a raw live sound and not as accurate sound stage. HT would sound closer to what you hear in the theater. The Klipsch will play much louder with less power.

Dynaudio would provide a more refined sound with better imaging and dispersion. I would say more detail but that depends on how you look at it, or more accurately, what you call detail. I would also think it safe to say the Dyn's would play lower. In regards to power, if you have preamp outs you can always upgrade the power if you feel you need it.

The two brands are drastically different in presentation. If you could maybe give them a listen. I will be able to compare Audience 60's to Heresy III's but won't be able to do so until maybe this weekend. Maybe I can paint you a better picture afterward.

blackraven
03-22-2010, 08:12 PM
What ever speaker you buy should have a warmer signiture as metal music tends to recorded on the bright side and can sound harsh. I might go for something with a warm, tight, detailed sound with good slam. Good luck and happy hunting!

By the way, www.saturdayaudio.com has some demo Monitor Audio S2 bookshelfs on sale for $399pr, they sold for $750. They use a 7" woofer. I have the smaller S1's and they have terrific bass with a powerful midrange and a very neutral sound. They are sharp looking with their real wood veneer cabinet.

They also have a pair of the Monitor Audio GR20's for $1399. These are a real steal, they list fot $3kpr.

audio amateur
03-23-2010, 01:58 AM
I wouldn't buy a 'bright' speaker or one that is fatiguing (Klipsch horn tweeters come to mid as fatiguing). Dynaudios would be a good choice, but if you want to listen loud you might need the power to go with it.
I would look at Polk's flagship bookshelf, the LSi9
http://www.polkaudio.com/images/showcase/82_36_big.jpg

Mr Peabody
03-23-2010, 04:13 PM
From B&W to Polk would be a step backward in my book.

poppachubby
03-23-2010, 05:32 PM
I think with the OP's budget and H/T - WAF requirements...Paradigm or PSB would be a good choice. Assuming he is running a decent sub, the Paradigms can really sing without the burden of deep bass.

I would suggest some auditioning at a local shop. The last model i seriously listened to, of either brand, was the PSB Imagine floorstander with some NAD amplification. I would certainly describe it as rocking...

JohnMichael
03-23-2010, 05:49 PM
I really like my Monitor Audio RS6's for all types of music. Godsmack and System of a Down sound great through them. Good bass and very clean sound.

JohnMichael
03-23-2010, 05:54 PM
For a lower priced speaker that I think would be good for metal check the link.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html

Sir Terrence the Terrible
03-23-2010, 05:58 PM
Within Temptation-Black Symphony. Now that is some good chite on Blu ray. I gave it an excellent review.

OP, These guys have mention to speakers that do metal some justice and some. The klipsch Heritage line is not all that bright if you pair it with the right amp. The CLS series by Cerwin Vega will rock your metal world. Personally, I think the other speakers mentioned here are very good speakers, but I would find them pretty polite for metal of any kind.

harley .guy07
03-23-2010, 07:01 PM
If metal is your passion then you have to look for something dynamic but smooth for the simple fact that metal has a very in your face presentation. But at the same time the Yamaha club series v speakers are very loud and clean when fed by a good power amp. And they are killer for metal as long as you have the room for them to breathe, and you can live with the look of them.

poppachubby
03-24-2010, 01:40 AM
I really like my Monitor Audio RS6's for all types of music. Godsmack and System of a Down sound great through them. Good bass and very clean sound.

Atomic Adam is the site administrator and is selling his Monitor's...

audio amateur
03-24-2010, 03:42 AM
From B&W to Polk would be a step backward in my book.
In general, I suppose that would be true. I hear though, that the LSi9 are a different beast.

f0rge
03-24-2010, 04:59 AM
thanks guys, great suggestions, i really need to get out to a Dynaudio dealer and have a serious listen, Monitor Audio would be next on my list.

I'm not against bookshelves either and i've seen some Dynaudio Audience 42 and 52 bookshelves for cheap enough on the used market that they might be worth checking out.

harley .guy07
03-24-2010, 05:21 PM
you might be impressed by some of the higher end bookshelves out there. there are several brands and models out there that produce a killer amount of sound with a small footprint. And the stereotype is that bookshelves do not produce good bass but that is not always the case, I know of several brands out there that have bookshelf speakers that image as good or better than anything out there and can really produce some dynamics and bass that is right up there with some of the floor standing speakers out there if not bettering some of them. Driver and cabinet quality make a super huge difference and its not always the biggest that make the most impact. room size and placement plus the amount of power available would make the choice for me to which direction to go. I would suggest listening to the usher be-718 if you can get a chance because they are some awesome speakers for the size and money. And you can't count out Dynaudio which are one of the kings of monitor bookshelf sized speakers.

Mr Peabody
03-24-2010, 07:22 PM
I got my Klipsch Heresy III in today. I'm not sure but it looks like the binding posts don't accept bananas. Before tampering with them I sent an email to check. So I didn't get to hook them up in the main system but did do some listening with them hooked to my Krell. They are definitely better than Klipsch lines in the mass market stores. The speaker seems tonally balanced but it depends on the recording. The Heresy is fast and hits like a prize fighter. As far as Metal I'd give them high marks, the double kick drum on Lamb of God was intense. They are horn mid and highs so they aren't "warm" but they aren't offensive either. In fact, on my Krell where there was plenty of good clean power I had to be careful the speakers are dynamic and SPL approached submission level quick. What I like about them is the woofer keeps up with the mids/highs so as the speaker gets loud bass just keeps punching. So if you want your Metal to sound live like at your favorite club venue, where the music is physical, you might want to give the Heresy a listen. If you don't like them Klipsch allows a 30 day return.

These haven't even begun to break in yet. They won't replace my main Dyn's but I think I might put them in place of my 60's in the second system. I think they are going to be a lot of fun for Rock.

TheHills44060
03-26-2010, 05:46 PM
Yeah f0rge stay away from the current Klipsch garbage. How the mighty have fallen.

I love the Forte's, Cornwall's and LaScala's for metal or any type of music for that matter (sorry peabody i've never heard the heresy's before). Just dump them in the corner of the room and enjoy. Some of the first metal/hard rock i ever heard as a kid were out of Klipsch so i definitely have a spot in my heart for them.

Mr Peabody
03-26-2010, 08:29 PM
The Heresy is the baby of the Heritage. They were small enough and cheap enough I could bring a pair in to play with. So far I really like them. It's one of those, there's so many things not right but it's so much fun, kind of things. I do wish they'd play a bit lower though. I also didn't realize that horn speakers took a bit of trial and error to get set up right. I brought them into the room to see how they sound with my CJ gear and now that I have the sound stage right I don't want to move them :) The combo was good.

While I'm on the topic, I don't think this deserves a new thread. I was checking out some discs for bass response and happened to drop Madonna, Immaculate Conception in. At least the last few songs on the album were cut or mixed using the Hughes 3D sound gizmo. I don't think it caught on. But I've never heard it quite as effective as with the Klipsch. It has to be something with the horns. There were parts of the song that sounded like it was coming from beside me and the sound was coming out into the room more. It was pretty cool.

poppachubby
03-27-2010, 04:11 AM
The Heresy is the baby of the Heritage. They were small enough and cheap enough I could bring a pair in to play with. So far I really like them. It's one of those, there's so many things not right but it's so much fun, kind of things. I do wish they'd play a bit lower though. I also didn't realize that horn speakers took a bit of trial and error to get set up right. I brought them into the room to see how they sound with my CJ gear and now that I have the sound stage right I don't want to move them :) The combo was good.

While I'm on the topic, I don't think this deserves a new thread. I was checking out some discs for bass response and happened to drop Madonna, Immaculate Conception in. At least the last few songs on the album were cut or mixed using the Hughes 3D sound gizmo. I don't think it caught on. But I've never heard it quite as effective as with the Klipsch. It has to be something with the horns. There were parts of the song that sounded like it was coming from beside me and the sound was coming out into the room more. It was pretty cool.

Glad you're enjoying your Heresy's Peabody. Legendary speakers you have there. They share the same traits as my Sound Dynamics pictured in this thread. You are certainly correct regarding horns. This is the area my speakers do the best in.

The metal tweeters make it sound like the musician is blowing into the back of the speaker!! The realism with brass is breathtaking and should be noted, it would be hard for anything else out there to touch it IMO. Not only is the reproduction accurate and transparent, it's also fun and exciting!! The immediacy and attack grab your attention like nothing else.

The drawback I have found is with any really, and I mean REALLY, screetchy high end solos from an electric six string. I have tone controls for the tweeters and since I'm basically near field, have defeated a bit of the volume to compensate for this event.

I think the OP could do really well with a dynamic and efficient speaker like the Heresy.

BTW, this thread has prompted me to unearth some heavier tunes. This week:

Hatebreed - Perseverance
Darkness Dynamite - The Astonishing Fury of Mankind
Metallica - ...And Justice for All
Slayer - Divine Intervention

All were a delight but particular cudos to Darkness Dynamite for an amazing recording. It comes across really fun and engaging to listen to. It's my audiophile system pick for you metalheads who need the best reproduction...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mTQLYHK9n-s/SgPiwLnuJtI/AAAAAAAAONM/fPiTgK27zjY/s320/DARKNESS+DYNAMITE.jpg

kexodusc
03-27-2010, 05:41 AM
For metal? I've never bought a speaker for just one type of music before, so I can't say for sure but the best commercial speakers I've heard for the money...Focus Audio. You could look at the FC-6, FC-7, or FC-8 depending on your budget and preference for bookshelf/towers.

http://www.focusaudio.com/index1.htm
A bit more money gets you into the FS line, which takes it up another level still.

Interestingly, I think the FC line use a derivative of the same Vifa XT25 ring radiator tweeter in the Lsi9's (the very same used in some $10k Krell LAT-2's etc), but the Peerless woofers are a step up IMO over the polypropylene jobbers in the Polk.

I'm hard on the entry level Polk stuff, but the Lsi line is a well implemented product that's been around for awhile. Polk doesn't cut corners in its construction, even if they aren't the prettiest.

rabbit73au
03-27-2010, 06:00 AM
Me Myself i Have the jamo concert VIIs i find them awsome for all types of music although they are now 21 years old i have not found anything that comes close to the sound these produce so if you find a pair second hand go and have a listen and if they are reasonably priced buy them if you can here is some info on them and also these are for sale.


http://www.wired4sound.net.au/speakers/jamo/jamo_concert.html

vlastoc
05-23-2010, 01:30 PM
In one of our local forum, these tips were picked out (not too much expensive):

- try to find older modeles of QUADRAL AURUM - Wotan, Amon, Vulkan, Titan... for a better money than the newer models. http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2195/boxenobenoffen04kleinwcs2.jpg

check the website: http://www.aurumspeakers.com/75-Products.html#contenttop

---------------------

- Next JBL, e.g JBL TL260 -
http://www.audioimages-hifi.com/page90/page69/files/page69_1.jpg

JBL ti10k -
http://www.harman-kardon.cz/jbl/img/jbl-ti10k-piano-black-1.png

JBL LS80.
http://www.stereomag.cz/obr/eisa2008/1JBL%20LS80.jpg

------------------------------

I will think about some other tips to add it here.

YBArcam
05-23-2010, 04:41 PM
While not metal, my favorite genre would be hard rock along the lines of GN'R. I've narrowed my search down to the Monitor Audio RX2, ProAc Studio 110, Dynaudio Excite X16 or DM 2/8, and PMC TB2i.

The RX2 and 2/8 both have 8" drivers, for a bigger sound and deeper bass. But all the speakers I mentioned are bookshelf designs. I see you are already considering Dyn and MA. I think MA would likely have a more exciting sound, though the highs on the old RS series had way too much energy IMO. The new series is hopefully different in that respect (I haven't heard it yet). Supposedly, ProAc Studios are also a very detailed and exciting speaker, with a slightly bright top end, but they use a soft dome tweeter. So I think ProAc might be worth a look. I already know PMC kicks butt, but they aren't cheap. I'll be comparing all the models I've listed over the next few weeks.

RGA
05-23-2010, 09:17 PM
To be quite frank I would look at speakers with wide baffles and larger drivers. Metal and harder rock are about the impact and "feeling" of the music as it is about the bass or the treble crash. So of course there are cheaper speakers that can do that - problem is they usually stink at everything else.

By what you write you want a speaker that will have the big "club" Tannoy speaker sound but also the ability to sound quite excellent with other forms of music. Speaking iof Tannoy - they make many speakers that do just that - but they tend to cost a lot. The RA Box by Trenner and Freidl does it better than any loudspeaker I have ever heard by anyone at any size or price. But they cost $25,000 pair and worth it.

So in the land of the living, there is Tannoy Westminster, the Klipschhorn(placed in corners), And on the affordable end The Audio Note E/Spe HE (placed in corners $7,600 - or ~2k as a kit), the Galo 3.5 for $5995.

The Galo has more actual hard driving impact and truly deafening levels and unbeleivably good start stop speed. There is very little distortion if any even at ridiculous volume levels. But it's not just a thwacker - it handles vocals and classical and jazz very nicely. It's not perfectly integrated (when I heard it) nor is the treble the last word. But frankly none of the little standmounts from the usual suspects are going to cut it - and subs don't help. Subs add bass and loud bass - so what - that is something completely different than dynamics, early compression - those things remain whether a sub is added or not.

Those Paradigm/B&W/Energy/Sonus Faber/PSB/Dynaudio/Monitor Audio/Boston Acoustics/Polk/Totem/PMC/you name it standmounts that look anything like this - that are all cut from the same cloth also sound surprisingly alike and all of them all share all the same problems - and that is that after you listen to them for a little while playing rock you start thinking like Chief Brody from the movie Jaws "You're going to need a bigger boat" = "you're going to need a bigger loudspeaker!"

Even the better bass standmounts like the transmission line PMC - as good as they can actually sound with their active amps attached you'll still note they make larger - MUCH Larger - loudspeakers. You can't get away from physics. Even the Audio Note J and E which are standmount two ways (though huge for a standmount) needs a corner to get the reinforcement in the bass. The problem is large speakers tend to have large speaker problems - so it's a balancing act.

Mr Peabody
05-24-2010, 05:46 AM
RGA, I don't remember the OP's budget but I think you are way over it. And, also to incenuate the likes of Polk/Boston Acoustic sounds the same as Dynaudio/B&W is not only very WRONG by anyone's hearing, it's irresponsible for some one who is supposed to be a reviewer and have your experience.

The Klipshorns are expensive and huge but the Heresy III or Cornwall III could be a good option. I also thought the new version of the RF-63 was surprisingly good with just a short audition. Also, in a large speaker the Cerwin Vega CLS series are said to be a stand out speaker for the company excelling in more accuracy than the company is known for.

RGA
05-24-2010, 10:23 AM
Slim line design speakers with multiple stacked 6 inch woofers and tweeter on top share very much a similar sound. Yes there will be frequency differences brighter treble, one has more bass or box resonances but there is clearly a sonic trait shared by a Dynaudio C1 and PMC TB1 or 2 or a Paradigm 100V3 and an Energy C9 or similar from Klipsch or Polk or B&W 603 or 604, Dynaudio Audience 72/82. I didn't say they sounded the same - similar enough to me that they don't separate themselves from each other in a significant enough way to warrant the price differentials (which is no doubt why they can all easily be interchangeably "recommended" by the review press. The 100V3 is three times the price of the C9 and it's not remotely 3 times better or for that matter all that different. In that virtually all of these speakers have the same foibles in the closed midrange and lack of cohesiveness.

The OP has already discounted Cerwin Vega so there is no point bringing them up. I am intrigued by their possibilities but like the laws of physics there is also the laws of parts quality. As for budget there is the used market. There is a difference between playing loud which all the above can do and playing loud and balanced. The problem with "all" of the 3-6 driver multiway slim lines is none of them sound cohesive in this price range. Usher did a good job of it and some others but then we're into ~15K not to mention the electronics needed to be up for the job.

I suppose I am presenting the anal end of the spectrum. If I am going to recommend the usual suspects of deep/thin/tall multi-way then I would lean to the Dynaudio 82 or I suppose now the Focus 360 and the B&W 604 as the cheap and cheerful runner up. But metal at the very least needs a speaker that is larger and doesn't crumble at levels and most standmounts in the $2k range simply fail at this.

Maybe I was in a mood but looking at forum advice where someone wants a speaker for metal or hard rock on various forums for sub $2k prices and I see people recommending puny stanmounts or the Magnepan MMG (possibly the worst speaker for any music with percussion ever created) is irritating. I have a set of old Wharfedal Vanguards in my closet that could probably be had on the used market for $400 that will blow any of the standmounts mentioned here into next week on metal/rock/dance/hip hop and at least sound credible with jazz and classical. That's a rock speaker. The product literature was similar to the maxell tape add with the wind blowing the guy in the seat back. 120db 40hz-23khz, ring dac horn loaded tweeter 95db sensitive 10ohm typical impedance - 5 watts will crack plaster and they had a DJ version with rigid sides. Metal needs kickass loudspeakers.

YBArcam
05-24-2010, 10:51 AM
Maybe it's because I've never heard a wide baffle speaker with a 12" driver, or something like that, but my old Tannoy Mercury F2 and also my old Monitor Audio RS5 both did a pretty good job at presenting rock with a big sense of scale and dynamics. If put up against a bigger speaker perhaps they would come up lacking.

Doesn't a lot of this depend on the room? My room is small, and I simply don't have the room for huge speakers. A large monitor or small floorstander is enough to pressurize the room. As I type this, I'm not sure what the OP's room is like.

Also, I think the amp is a big factor in this too. You need an amp with some guts, and the ability to just grip the speaker drivers and make them do what it wants them to. High peak current and a high damping factor, as far as I know. I just bought an Audiolab 8000S which has these kinds of specs. The sound is full bodied, dynamic, with drums that have impact and are super tight. I started with a Denon minisystem and when I heard the 8000S for the first time I thought any similarly priced amp would produce that kind of sound, so I skipped the Audiolab and bought something just a little higher end. Well, I found out that it isn't the case. My current Exposure amp is well regarded for rock, I think, but I'm finding it sounds a little too loose and unexciting, with a relatively thin and distant sound. I also had a YBA YA201, which had the guts but was a little too smooth and relaxed.

RGA
05-24-2010, 11:59 AM
First the three loudest and powerful rooms and bass drive room shaking and hugely tight bass rooms I heard at CES were Acapella High Violencello speakers run by Einstein Tube amps, The Trenner and Freidl RA Box being driven by 35 watts of Heed amplification and a tube amp, and the Audio Note E/Spe HE driven by 27 watts of SE tridoe power. The Galo 3.5 driven by a SS was also driven very loud but it also sounded grittier - although excellent mind you but it would have been a lot better with a better front end IMO.

It's complete myth/hooey/poppycock/lies/rubbish/enter your favorite adjective, that you need big power to get big sound. Granted to drive some of the overly complex multi way loudspeakers that suck power inefficiently it is true but generally those speakers tend to sound worse.

It never makes any sense to me. SE amplifiers sound better - every system no matter how hard the speaker is to drive - if it's just quality they sound better. So with the garbage in garbage out view it makes far more sense to have the best front end sound quality wise and then a speaker that can take advantage of it. With very hard to drive speakers - even if they, in themselves are well designed and could sound great, are let down by the fact that you need to run worse sounding, way more expensive front ends to get them to sound good where a high efficient speaker with low powered tube amps will give the same volume levels and cost significantly less money.

I am not an engineer but some things are fairly obvious. My speaker uses a SEAS 8 inch woofer and is ultra low excursion - I can play very very loud and you barely see the woofers moving at all which reduces the distortion to ultra low levels which is why they are so unbelievably clear and why so very very very many panel owners make the switch to the AN E - it has to be ultra fast for a panel guy to not "miss" the openess and speed they like from their panels. They are dead easy to drive and the goal of the thing is to let the box and the wall provide the drive and bass. With the Jinro amp on the E the room could play at ridiculous levels with the tightest fastest bass available in a loudspeaker period. So it's ultra fast and has very little excursion meaning the amp doesn't have to work much to control the drivers.

Conversely, you take a speaker that has 2 or three woofers that have high excursion moving way out and in to create bass lines and just using logic you can see serious problems around distortion. If the amplifier can't control the stop start action of such woofers then the woofers will create a doubling effect where the driver is too slow to hit the next note it lingers a little longer and you get that mushy slow sound that people despise.

The answer is to then buy a huge high damping factor amp with 1000 watts. And of course you are 100% correct that such an amp will have tremendous grip being able to pull that woofer in and out quickly whilst the low powered SS or tube amp will in most cases fall flat on its face.

But I would make the case to you that such amps in general sound awful. While they have that "grip" they also do the same for the tweeter or midrange units that don't require that sort of power and the result is a speaker that sounds "overcontrolled" and thins out the rest of the presentation (midrange up) such that is is highly fatiguing.

Several articles have been written on negative feedback as one of the biggest reasons for lousy sound. The higher the amplifier power and damping factor the higher the use of negative feedback - the more negative feedback the worse the amplifier sounds. Stereophile, Hi-Fi Critic, and UHF have written on this aspect. UHF does not, in their book, recommend amplifiers with a damping factors above 40.

Even the top SS designers when listening in blind conditions don't choose their own high damping factor amplifiers. http://stereophile.com/reference/70/

And then to get the really good ones you're looking at the likes of Technical Brain. One guy who was defending bryston to me said that I dump on them and have I heard their 28b. Yes buit look at the bloody price of the 28b. He was basically saying that this amp is finally a good bryston - yes at $25,000+ SS begins to sound good??? or the big Pass Labs at tens of thousands of dollars.

But the question is why? I would far rather put the money into loudspeakers than power amps - the speaker after all is the game changer. I grew up on SS big power, My dealer has some of the better examples of big SS power amps. They have recently picked up the Dynaudio/Octave tube amp line and here again - big tough to drive speakers with low powered tube amps. Dynaudio believes in the tube gear as they are being matched together at audio shows now.

In a small room you need power even less than you would in a large room.

Now again, I am 100% with you that most speakers to play loud with hard rock NEED huge power to get them under control - I am just saying that those speakers are the ones best avoided to begin with. But I suppose at the entry level price points there is not a lot of choice. But I would still look at the amp/speaker purchase as a combined expense. You can get a Grant Fidelity/Rogue Audio/Mystere/Audio Note kit amp/Antique Sound Labs/Octave for $1k-$3k that will sound terrific (note the stereophile article where the makers of the better upscale ss amps chose a $100 tube amp over their multi thousand dollar amps). This leaves you far more money to get premium speakers.

Unfortunately very few shops carry products that are not in fashion and fit with the decor of the modern home. My dealer recently picked up Harbeth. A speaker that is one of the oldest best sounding speakers around that very few dealers will touch with a ten foot pole (like Audio Note). The slim speakers designed with home theater in mind with slam and sleek sexy looks is what is all the rage. So is the Mp3. And in both cases the sound quality is not a priority!

A quote from the Martin Colloms Stereophile article "I invite you to keep a sense of proportion when I claim that, compared with worthy zero-feedback designs, conventional amplifiers impose a significant "graying" of dynamic expression, a falsification of timbre, a shift of truly natural tonality, and a smearing of temporal definition. There may also be an associated loss of rhythm, a blurring of the delicate nuances of the leading edges of natural sounds."

Martin Colloms is as good as it gets from a technical engineering sense and formed the speaker company Monitor Audio. http://colloms.com/default.aspx

YBArcam
05-24-2010, 06:23 PM
Interesting stuff, RGA. I haven't listened to my 8000S yet, but when I do I will try to hear if high frequencies sound harsh and overcontrolled. I just recall loving the sound the amp made and therefore, I bought it. The speakers that I've owned over the years haven't been terribly hard to drive, though not as easy as an AN-E of course, nor with the same big driver and wide baffle. Then again, I don't have $12K to spend either.

But I was pretty satisfied with the sound I got from a 6.5" driver, in a speaker that wasn't too tough to drive, on the larger side for it's kind of speaker, being driven by an amp that had some guts and control. Maybe this isn't so bad then. I think if going for a wide baffle design that is affordable, used might be the way to go. There have been some old Mission speakers that have caught my eye...one day I might bite on a pair.

Tubes are something I am becoming more and more interested in. As an intro to tubes I did buy a tube buffer. It's cheap and I'll see how it sounds, more of a curiosity than anything, though it wouldn't shock me if it doesn't have as much impact on sound as a true tube front end would. Obviously there is much more going on when the entire amp section of the chain is powered by tubes, rather than in just sticking a tube buffer somewhere along the way.

Mr Peabody
05-24-2010, 07:23 PM
RGA, you and those magazine cronies will say anything to get some attention. A $100.00 tube amp...... give me a break. They forgot to disclaim the subjects taking the DBT were students from the school for the deaf. If that test was real or legit a $100.00 tube would have enough noise to make it stand out against a clean Krell or Pass. Not to mention a very obvious difference in bass response, the solid state being tight and clean where the tube amp would be tubby and thick. No, tubes will not break any stereotype at $100.00 or even close to that budget.

I use a Krell integrated to drive just a pair of Dyn Audience 60's and they rock fine in a small room, probably 12x12.

RGA
05-25-2010, 04:22 PM
Mr. P

You obviously didn't read the article. This was a $100 tube amp (used price) in ~1975 by one of the better tube makers of the era a decade earlier Radford STA-25 III (~1965). 25 watts per channel.

Martin Colloms is about as good as this industry gets from a technical standpoint which is why he is the guy they bring into court cases to settle matters related to audio. He has written several books on speaker design, started Monitor Audio, is the technical editor of most of the magazines out there. He's the guy they go to when JA doesn't know the answer (and he should go to Martin more often IMO).

He is willing to set aside the measurements and use his ears. I am not saying I agree with him on every point but he conducted the blind tests and noted that the top manufacturers (incidentally from AudioLab mentioned in the thread) and heavyweights from Meridian, Naim etc THEY selected the Radford over their own SS amplifiers. Not a bunch of nobody un named folks that Harman Brings in to "train" what to like.

The Radford may have been a couple/three hundred dollars in 1965 or about ~$5k in today's dollars so no this was not some cheap amplifier. The point wasn't really about the price but the technology. Again the article http://stereophile.com/reference/70/

From Colloms on a Cary that has user controllable feedback

"With the Cary's control set to its maximum of "10dB feedback"---when measured, this in fact turned out to be 6dB, a factor of 2x for the 8 ohm output and with the 8 ohm feedback switch position---you could certainly hear a more accurate frequency response, the benefits of a greater damping factor, tighter bass, and a midband more like that of the familiar Wilson WITT. However, much of the magic was lost. That particular degree of perfectly timed involvement, of convincing transient edges, of natural tonality and expression, was lost. Now what we had was just another very good tube amplifier with a particularly pleasing midband.

Reduce the feedback to a factor of only 3dB (as measured)---negligible by the standards of the majority of most modern amplifiers---and the sound improves a little. Reduce it to 1.5dB and the light begins to dawn. Turn it completely off (0dB) and musically you know where you ought to be.

Without feedback, both I and my friends and colleagues who shared the listening found that reproduced sound could really be different from the usual expectation, that a pervasive grayness of expression and false tonal color had been swept away without dire consequences for other important aspects of sound quality.../...

An analysis of the approximately 700 amplifier reviews that I've undertaken over the years indicates that, if there has been any trend associated with improving sound quality, it has largely been associated with reductions in global negative feedback. Even the majors---Mark Levinson, Krell, Audio Research, Conrad-Johnson---have consistently moved toward more elegant, more linear circuitry, allowing lowered feedback levels for the same closed-loop linearity. Are these designers unconsciously and instinctively seeking a safe route toward designs with minimal or no negative feedback?"

"In my reviews, I have observed that high-feedback amplifiers---which have an inherently limited open-loop bandwidth---suffer what is commonly called "midrange glare": a hardening of and forwardness in the upper midrange. Amplifiers with wider open-loop bandwidths have less of this, or their "projection" moves up to the mid-treble. Low-bandwidth, high-feedback designs can end up sounding "dark," even significantly colored in the midrange."

"Consider the proposition that a pure input signal is subjected to the usual nonlinear amplification and is then applied with all the subsequent errors back to the input to be amplified again. In theory, the errors are subtracted at the feedback connection, but there is inevitably some error in this subtraction. No problem, says the textbook: the wide bandwidth of the closed-loop amplifier will ensure that the signal and errors, and their errors, will go many times 'round the loop, reducing the distortion to below audible levels.

Or will it? Audiophile pundits know only too well that making a single audio stage perform to a truly high standard is not a trivial matter. Almost by inspection you can see that the feedback amplifier has the capacity to go on compounding its error residual. When an amplifier is processing a complex, harmonically rich input signal---music---and not a steady-state single sinewave tone in a lab test, something could well go wrong. That cascade of residual errors will intermodulate at low levels, but it will intermodulate in a fantastically complex manner.

Subjectively, the effect of increased negative feedback is generally that of increased compression, in addition to the midrange coloration noted above. This loss of dynamic expression suggests that additional energy is indeed filling in the natural spaces in the original spectrum and thus blurring musical expression."

I have been saying this for years without the need for in depth technical knowledge. The first time I heard a SET amp with sufficiently efficient speakers it was a death blow to everything I heard 20 years prior. Something is seriously "wrong" with the production of non Single Ended amplifier devices. Some are less wrong than others but I still find amplifiers of Single Ended topologies to sound more natural than those that are not. This does not mean tubes either - Sugden's A21a is a single Ended amplifier and has successfully been selling for over 40 years because it embarrasses most competition where it actually counts - reproducing music. Meanwhile Musical Fidelity adds a new amp every 3 years, Bryston adds an S every now and then, McIntosh has blue lights and can't even decide on Tubes or SS (no direction), and the list goes on.

poppachubby
05-25-2010, 09:53 PM
I have been saying this for years without the need for in depth technical knowledge. The first time I heard a SET amp with sufficiently efficient speakers it was a death blow to everything I heard 20 years prior. Something is seriously "wrong" with the production of non Single Ended amplifier devices. Some are less wrong than others but I still find amplifiers of Single Ended topologies to sound more natural than those that are not. This does not mean tubes either - Sugden's A21a is a single Ended amplifier and has successfully been selling for over 40 years because it embarrasses most competition where it actually counts - reproducing music. Meanwhile Musical Fidelity adds a new amp every 3 years, Bryston adds an S every now and then, McIntosh has blue lights and can't even decide on Tubes or SS (no direction), and the list goes on.

Not interfering with the debate...

but aside from the "coloration" and "tubey warmth" that SET is always accused of, lies wonderful accuracy and tonal supremacy. A great topology will also reveal excellent dynamics. I still listen to SS gear, but nothing touches my Golden Tube. I had long been a fan of the twin design by Harman Kardon and still am, but it's a second place finisher around these parts now. I own a 630 and 930, both are great SS examples.

Geoffcin
05-26-2010, 02:36 AM
I'm sorry guys but the forum is "Speakers" and the topic is "Speaker suggestions for those who enjoy listening to metal?" Let's try to keep it on topic.

Hyfi
05-26-2010, 04:26 AM
thanks guys, great suggestions, i really need to get out to a Dynaudio dealer and have a serious listen, Monitor Audio would be next on my list.

I'm not against bookshelves either and i've seen some Dynaudio Audience 42 and 52 bookshelves for cheap enough on the used market that they might be worth checking out.

I have 42s as rears and 82s as fronts (when not using my Clearfields) and can tell you with the right amp they kill. Silk dome tweeter would probably be a good choice for harsh metal music and the bass would be good. I have driven my 42s for fun as mains with both a Stratos amp and Counterpoint NPS-400 and was quite impressed with the overall sound, minus the room shaking bass that the 82s can provide. Along with my sub, it was quite musical. The 52s would be a better choice for mains along with a good sub.

Although the new Excite line may be easier to drive, and I have not heard them yet, my belief is that they probably are no better sounding than the Audience line but they figured out how to make them for less and sell them for more. If you can still find anything in the Audience line, and plan to get a decent amp, jump on them quickly.

Hyfi
05-26-2010, 04:30 AM
In general, I suppose that would be true. I hear though, that the LSi9 are a different beast.

If these are in the same family as the 15s and 25s and I believe they are, I wouldn't bother. I have heard both the 15s and 25s driven with decent integrated NAD and Cambridge gear and was thoroughly unimpressed. No real midrange or acurate highs, mushy uncontrolled bass, and irritating after a long loud session. So if the big ones don't sount too good, I doubt the little ones would be any better.