Outlaw cancels the Model 997 moving on to 998

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

While in between tracking and mixing sessions this morning, I ran across this news that I thought was pretty interesting. It has been discussed here previously that Outlaw was having a hard time getting the Model 997 to the market. Various glitches and part problems continually delay the product roll out for months. Now that 3D, and HDMI 1.4 have hit the market, they have decided to abandon the Model 997, and move on to its eventual replacement the Model 998. I do not know about anyone else, but I congratulate them for not releasing a glitchy product like a similar product the Newcastle R-972, which is dogged with bugs and glitches in its Trinnov room optimizer. Here is their reason for cancellation.


As most Outlaws know, we have been working with Inkel to jointly develop a single hardware/software platform to be sold by Sherwood Newcastle as their R-972 audio/video receiver and, with substantial modifications, by Outlaw Audio as the Model 997 surround processor. Now that the R-972 is finally on the market, it is time to update you on the status of that project.

To get right to the point, due to the current state of the R-972 and the inability of Inkel to properly implement our required changes, it is with great regret that we must inform you that we have cancelled the Model 997.

We know that this will be extremely disappointing to those who have been waiting patiently for this product. That is equally true for us at Outlaw. With interest in this product from thousands of customers, it is obvious that this will result in lost sales. However, we feel strongly that under the circumstances we have made the right decision.

The Reasons Why

To better understand the reasons behind this decision, we would like to share some of the details that brought us to this conclusion.

* Half way through the development of this platform, Inkel switched the video processor to the Reon solution. While this move improved the performance of the unit, it caused other side effects and delayed completion of the platform by almost nine months.

* Proper implementation of the Trinnov Optimizer Room Correction System also took longer than expected, pushing all aspects of the schedule back even farther.

* We have been testing pre-production beta samples for at least five months, but the inability of Inkel to get both the underlying platform to operate to our specifications and to have the Outlaw-specific changes made properly caused delays well beyond our initial production start date.

* HDMI 1.4 and 3D have come to market with a speed that is considerably quicker than anyone in the industry had anticipated. The demand for compatibility with these key technologies and the fact that we could not offer them in our new processor put the final nail in the Model 997's coffin. Knowing that many of you have waited for the Model 997 as your first HDMI processor, we could not introduce it with anything less than the absolute state-of-the-art in digital connectivity. We simply would not put you in a position of investing in a processor only to find out later that you needed to replace it with a new model when you moved to 3-D.

* The time we have invested on the Model 997 has diverted our attention from the other products we have in development. With many of those products reaching a critical stage, we had to make a decision on where to invest our resources. The payback on spending any further time or effort on the Model 997, which in our opinion was still not ready for production, was no longer there.

When considering these issues, compounded with several others, it became clear that the Model 997 platform design no longer met your needs or ours. We delayed this decision (some might say even longer than we should have) in the hope that things would work out favorably, but that was not to be. Again, despite the realization that this would be a disappointment to the many Outlaws who have been waiting patiently, we felt that even if the Model 997 was fully debugged and ready for production, it is now past the point where we could sell this processor as it stands. It would just be too far behind the curve the moment it was released.

What Happens Now?

We know that our decision raises many questions, so we'll answer some of them here and follow up with additional details as we move forward.

Most importantly, we are firmly committed to offering surround sound processors. Before the end of the year we will introduce a new product to take the place in our line-up that the Model 997 would have occupied. In reality, this new model, which we have been planning for some time, was originally intended to replace the Model 997 when that product came to the end of its life.

Given our experience with the Model 997 project, it is important to emphasize that our new flagship processor will NOT be derived from an existing platform. It will be an Outlaw exclusive design, built from the ground up to our own specifications and manufactured for us by a company responsible for many high-end brand home theater products. By taking total control of this new model we are assured that it will meet our highest standards for performance and product quality.

Now that we no longer have the diversion of the Model 997, we are totally focused on the new product, and we're turning up the heat on this project. As an example of the speed with which we are proceeding, our engineering teams have already completed the design for the 3D compatible, HDMI 1.4a video board. The chips needed to build this board will arrive before the end of March.

To give you a taste of what this product will deliver, here are some of the top level features for what we have code-named the Outlaw Model 998:

* Multiple 3D-Ready, HDMI 1.4a inputs and outputs, including a front panel jack for connection to digital cameras and camcorders.

* On the audio side, Dolby Volume, Dolby PLIIz, high-performance DACs and balanced audio outputs.

* Also on the audio side, our commitment to the Trinnov Optimizer has not changed. We have heard and evaluated Trinnov and assure you that it is the real deal: far ahead of any room correction system we have ever heard, at any price. With this new product, we will implement Trinnov so that it works the way it is meant to be used - and heard! Trinnov is fully on-board with our plan, and they are now exchanging details with our engineering teams.

* On the video side, there will be state-of-the-art video processing and scaling when you want it, and full bypass when you don't. The interface and menu system will be straightforward, easy to use and powerful, all at the same time.

* Direct USB software upgradeability without the need for direct connection to a computer or the need for any loader programs. You'll simply download the new software to a USB drive when needed, plug it into the front panel, and the processor will take it from there.

Barring any unforeseen complications or component price increases, this new processor will be close to the price range of the Model 997. It will be hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars lower than anything even remotely like it. And yes, the $200 credit for past Outlaw processor customers will still be valid on this new unit. When you see and hear the video and audio performance of this processor and use its flexible but easy operation and interface, we're confident that you'll be as excited as we are about our new processor.

Lest anyone have any doubt about our commitment to this product, we invite you to click here to take a sneak peak at the preliminary front panel design.

Finally, you might ask where this leaves us in the next few months. We have a number of great new products in the works, along with some exciting new partnerships that will enable you to upgrade virtually every aspect of your home entertainment system. Stay tuned for more information in the weeks and months ahead.

Thank you in advance for understanding the reasoning behind this very tough decision. While it pushes our new processor back a bit further than we'd like, the end result will be an all-new product that better suits everyone's long term needs. More than ever, our new surround processor and the other products we have in the pipeline for 2010 will make Outlaw Audio the one place where "The best values in Home Theater are just a mouse click away.™"

Best regards,
The Outlaws



I am sure it was a tough decision, but it was certainly a smart one.

[GMichael]

I wonder why they (and others) have so much trouble making processors. Didn’t the Emotiva’s have glitchy problems as well? Why is it so much harder to get it right with a processor while AVR’s have been working out so well? The one Onkyo model is the only one I remember having any issues at all.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I wonder why they (and others) have so much trouble making processors. Didn’t the Emotiva’s have glitchy problems as well? Why is it so much harder to get it right with a processor while AVR’s have been working out so well? The one Onkyo model is the only one I remember having any issues at all.

These room optimizing software are very difficult to implement. It took Audussey a long time to get theirs right. When they began working on it, I was still at USC where the research was conducted. I have been out of school for twenty years, and it took them 16 years to get it to market. Trinnov is a newer implementation of room optimizer that is obviously more complex to get right.

Keep in mind, the Newcastle R-972 receiver is a pretty glitchy product, but Newcastle released it anyway. People who have purchased it are reporting how difficult it is to set up, and how glitch ridden the trinnov optimizer is in this receiver. Processors have to be so much more powerful than the previous receivers, because things like Dts-HD Master Audio is a processing intensive audio format. When you add 3D and HDMI 1.4 transmitters into the picture, it get that much tougher, and takes more time to get the processor right.

[GMichael]

These room optimizing software are very difficult to implement. It took Audussey a long time to get theirs right. When they began working on it, I was still at USC where the research was conducted. I have been out of school for twenty years, and it took them 16 years to get it to market. Trinnov is a newer implementation of room optimizer that is obviously more complex to get right.

Keep in mind, the Newcastle R-972 receiver is a pretty glitchy product, but Newcastle released it anyway. People who have purchased it are reporting how difficult it is to set up, and how glitch ridden the trinnov optimizer is in this receiver. Processors have to be so much more powerful than the previous receivers, because things like Dts-HD Master Audio is a processing intensive audio format. When you add 3D and HDMI 1.4 transmitters into the picture, it get that much tougher, and takes more time to get the processor right.

I hope they get it right this time arround. It would be a great affordable option to another expensive ARV.

[blackraven]

I wish that they would put in a by pass feature like a HT bypass in some preamps. It would be great for people like me that have to use an amp switcher to switch between my 2ch rig and my HT AVR so that I can use my Maggies for both systems.

[pixelthis]

It is not "similar" to the newcastle, it is the Newcastle in most respects.
Badge engineering, basically.
AS to why they are having so much trouble, well, this is an argument to keeping things
simple.
Like SCOTTY said," the more they complicate the plumbing, the easier it is to gum up the works".
Or like my teacher said, K.I.S.S.
(keep it simple, stupid):1:

[rob_a]

This is really harsh! I know Outlaw fans have been waiting a while for the new processor, I hope they can get something out before their customers jump to another brand. :frown5:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This is really harsh! I know Outlaw fans have been waiting a while for the new processor, I hope they can get something out before their customers jump to another brand. :frown5:

I don't think there is any chance of this. Outlaw has a pretty rabid loyal customer base. I think they had to weight their option pretty carefully before doing this. Do you want to put the product out buggy and not complete, or do you want to wait and introduce that would actually address tomorrows technology. They are a small company, and it was taking too long to get the bugs out. HDMI 1.4 spec have been released, 3D has been announced, and 4k is already being considered as an option on Blu ray. It was smarter to build a pre-pro going forward to support this, rather than having to come back a year from now and address it in a new product. Outlaw is not Onkyo or Sony, so they cannot afford to churn out new receivers and the such every year.

[rob_a]

I don't think there is any chance of this. Outlaw has a pretty rabid loyal customer base. I think they had to weight their option pretty carefully before doing this. Do you want to put the product out buggy and not complete, or do you want to wait and introduce that would actually address tomorrows technology. They are a small company, and it was taking too long to get the bugs out. HDMI 1.4 spec have been released, 3D has been announced, and 4k is already being considered as an option on Blu ray. It was smarter to build a pre-pro going forward to support this, rather than having to come back a year from now and address it in a new product. Outlaw is not Onkyo or Sony, so they cannot afford to churn out new receivers and the such every year.

I do hope that's the case. It's the samll companies like Outlaw that help keeps the majors in check with quality and pricing. So I hope they come out of this already.

[pixelthis]

This is really harsh! I know Outlaw fans have been waiting a while for the new processor, I hope they can get something out before their customers jump to another brand. :frown5:

Or they might try designing their own stuff-oh, wait, sorry, they just rebadge other peeps stuff, being a marketing company, not a audio.:1:

[3LB]

A lot of electronic companies rebadge. And even when you design your own processor, its prolly someone else who is manufacturing it.

Whats the big whoop? Some things are just beyond the control of smaller brands.

[GMichael]

If Outlaw is rebadging someone else's processor, then you'll be getting a great deal. Not many companies charge less for their processors. That means they are buying someone's more expensive units, rebadging them, and charging less for them. I'mm all for that.

[rob_a]

Or they might try designing their own stuff-oh, wait, sorry, they just rebadge other peeps stuff, being a marketing company, not a audio.:1:

I would say 90% of company "rebadge". My receiver is made by Marantz but is using products form TI, Pioneer, Cirrus, Analog Devices, DTS, Dolby, ect... Pretty much the same thing Outlaw is doing. Why does Outlaw have a great product for less??? Direct sell and small overhead is most of the reason, also the chain stores are jacking up the prices on the store brands beyond their true value. So if a company like outlaw can create a better product for less, that is great. Give the stores some competition. Keeps prices down and quailty up.

[Ajani]

Interestingly, Parasound also cancelled their planned Halo and Classic processors....

[pixelthis]

I would say 90% of company "rebadge". My receiver is made by Marantz but is using products form TI, Pioneer, Cirrus, Analog Devices, DTS, Dolby, ect... Pretty much the same thing Outlaw is doing. Why does Outlaw have a great product for less??? Direct sell and small overhead is most of the reason, also the chain stores are jacking up the prices on the store brands beyond their true value. So if a company like outlaw can create a better product for less, that is great. Give the stores some competition. Keeps prices down and quailty up.

NOT REALLY.
Your MARANTZ uses parts designed by someone else in order to create an
original design, the canceled Outlaw product was a clone of an existing receiver,
with a few minor changes, incl taking out the amps.
My receiver has Audessey and several chips found in other receivers, but it is an original design.
BADGE" ENGINEERING is taking an entire product and putting a new name on it.
BIG DIFF.:1:

[rob_a]

NOT REALLY.
Your MARANTZ uses parts designed by someone else in order to create an
original design, the canceled Outlaw product was a clone of an existing receiver,
with a few minor changes, incl taking out the amps.
My receiver has Audessey and several chips found in other receivers, but it is an original design.
BADGE" ENGINEERING is taking an entire product and putting a new name on it.
BIG DIFF.:1:

I know what you’re saying; like what lexicon did with the Oppo BD player. That’s in the macro sense, total copy and thats what outlaw is doing. I was stating more of the micro sense, most companies re-badge in some small way. We could argue about what the definition of "re-badge" is all day, but my main point is that a company like Outlaw and other boutiques are good for the market. Plain and simple, you start losing them and you start seeing choice and quality go down and prices go up. I understand you don't think they are a real audio company, that’s cool, but they still have an impact on the audio industry.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

NOT REALLY.
Your MARANTZ uses parts designed by someone else in order to create an
original design, the canceled Outlaw product was a clone of an existing receiver,
with a few minor changes, incl taking out the amps.
My receiver has Audessey and several chips found in other receivers, but it is an original design.
BADGE" ENGINEERING is taking an entire product and putting a new name on it.
BIG DIFF.:1:

It is not a clone Mr. Misinformation. A clone would be an exact replica, and the Outlaw is going to be a pre-pro with features shared by the Sherwood receiver. It is going to be quite different from the Sherwood receiver, and the only real thing they share is the Trinnov setup processing. The quality of the features on the Outlaw will be a lot higher, it will have far more processing power, a higher version of the HDMI connection, beefier power supplies, and will be far more feature rich than the Sherwood receiver.

That does not sound like a clone to me!:rolleyes:

[pixelthis]

It is not a clone Mr. Misinformation. A clone would be an exact replica, and the Outlaw is going to be a pre-pro with features shared by the Sherwood receiver. It is going to be quite different from the Sherwood receiver, and the only real thing they share is the Trinnov setup processing. The quality of the features on the Outlaw will be a lot higher, it will have far more processing power, a higher version of the HDMI connection, beefier power supplies, and will be far more feature rich than the Sherwood receiver.

That does not sound like a clone to me!:rolleyes:

It was going to be a "pre pro", cant even get your tense straight.
Any difference between an "Outlaw" and what it copies is purely cosmetic.
Now, a lot of companies have been doing this for years, at Walmart they had half a dozen boomboxes, all with a few differences but basically the same thing, but with different brand names, like SONY, PANASONIC, etc.
All of these companies contracted out to the same Asian manufacturer, and nothing wrong with that.
But these companies do make original product, they just contract out their mass market
stuff they dont want to mess with.
My point is that they DO some original work, parts get shared , for good economiesw of scale.
But companies like Outlaw don't do anything but slap their name on products,
and they surrive only until someone figures out that their products are only overpriced
clones of value brands like Sherwood( a good economy brand, but certainly not high end).
And some companies create outfits like Outlaw, so that they have a place to send product that is not quite up to snuff for their line, but "good enough" when their name isn't on it.
An old practice, and not one just done by electronics companies.
Beer companies, car companies, etc, all have "value" brands:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It was going to be a "pre pro", cant even get your tense straight.

Majoring in minors toothless one, from this point on your empty of true facts arguments will fall apart.


Any difference between an "Outlaw" and what it copies is purely cosmetic.

Since there are zero products that Outlaw has copied, and at least 1 that another manufacturer has copied from Outlaw, your point falls apart beginning here.


Now, a lot of companies have been doing this for years, at Walmart they had half a dozen boomboxes, all with a few differences but basically the same thing, but with different brand names, like SONY, PANASONIC, etc.

Can you explain to me(and those reading this) how something can be "different" but be the same at the same time? That would defy the both words same+different wouldn't it? Did you pull all of these boomboxes apart so you could examine them in detail? Probably not, so you cannot factually say that even their innards are exactly the same.


All of these companies contracted out to the same Asian manufacturer, and nothing wrong with that.

Yes, but you fail to mention that a single Asian manufacturer can put together dozens of entirely different products for different companies as well. That is a big detail to leave out.


But these companies do make original product, they just contract out their mass market

This is a vague explanation of reality since Oppo does not do this practice. In case of many companies, they do all of the design work, and only contract out assembly. Most pick all of the parts of the product by hand, so they work to tight tolerance and deliver high quality and performance. Others, like what you consider as state of the art(Vizio comes to mind) source the cheapest part from many suppliers(that are not designed to work together from the ground up) and put them together which results in lower prices, but lower quality as well.



My point is that they DO some original work, parts get shared , for good economiesw of scale.
But companies like Outlaw don't do anything but slap their name on products,
and they surrive only until someone figures out that their products are only overpriced
clones of value brands like Sherwood( a good economy brand, but certainly not high end).

Your information is continually flawed slowpixel. Outlaw has designed every one of their products themselves, and the only outsourcing they have done is assembly. They have sourced zero of their product from other manufacturers, and that is a fact that not even your stupid lies can erase.

Sherwood designed a receiver with the Trinnov set up system. That receiver is much more simplistic in design that what Outlaw was going to release. The Outlaw version of the Trinnov setup is far more complicated than the Sherwood receiver, hence why it it both different, and far more difficult to design. Every aspect of the Outlaw processor was going to be more sophisticated than the Sherwood receiver. It was so far more difficult to assemble that complications set the final design of the pre-pro far back than Outlaw could predict, hence the announcements of delay, and now the cancellation of the 997. Sherwood has already released its receiver, and quite frankly it was full of bugs, but much easier to design, logic would lean towards Outlaw making a wise decision in this case.

Once again I am going to tell you that a little critical thinking goes a long way. Not enough thinking makes you look foolish and ignorant.


And some companies create outfits like Outlaw, so that they have a place to send product that is not quite up to snuff for their line, but "good enough" when their name isn't on it.

Can you name a single Outlaw product this scenario applies to? And just what company created Outlaw aside from Outlaw?



An old practice, and not one just done by electronics companies.
Beer companies, car companies, etc, all have "value" brands:1:

Can you tell me how the practices of a Beer company(any of them would do) operate just like Outlaw?

The weakness and down right untruthfulness of your arguments is staggering but par for the course for you faultypixel.

[pixelthis]

Majoring in minors toothless one, from this point on your empty of true facts arguments will fall apart.



[QUOTE]Since there are zero products that Outlaw has copied, and at least 1 that another manufacturer has copied from Outlaw, your point falls apart beginning here.

just a bald-faced lie, OUTLAW used to (and might still) get their amps from ATI.



Can you explain to me(and those reading this) how something can be "different" but be the same at the same time? That would defy the both words same+different wouldn't it? Did you pull all of these boomboxes apart so you could examine them in detail? Probably not, so you cannot factually say that even their innards are exactly the same.

They were the same in that the jacks, controls, and the general form factor were
identical.
THERE "INNARDS" were the same with the exception of a little more amp power
thrown in to cater to the "raw power" market


Yes, but you fail to mention that a single Asian manufacturer can put together dozens of entirely different products for different companies as well. That is a big detail to leave out.

It is a minor detail, everybody knows that a lot of manufacturing is sent to Asian subcontractors these days.
And they tend to put out product for several different brands at the same time,
with only minor variations that the various customers ordered.
It would probably be more intellectually honest for outlaw to get these guys to build their stuff, instead of cloning product from real audio manufacturers who actually care
about what they put out there.
Like Cambridge, a company that designs their stuff at the home office in England,
ships it to their office in Hong Kong, who then sends it to mainland China to be built.
At least Cambridge is doing some audio work.



This is a vague explanation of reality since Oppo does not do this practice. In case of many companies, they do all of the design work, and only contract out assembly. Most pick all of the parts of the product by hand, so they work to tight tolerance and deliver high quality and performance. Others, like what you consider as state of the art(Vizio comes to mind) source the cheapest part from many suppliers(that are not designed to work together from the ground up) and put them together which results in lower prices, but lower quality as well.

Everybody gets the lowest prices for parts that they can.
Couldnt resist a dig at Vizio , could you?
Mine is two years old, teh one I gave to my parents four years old, my brothers four years old, and the ones from various friends, none of them have failed.
And I AM constantly being asked by mine, people who see it love the pic as much as I do




Your information is continually flawed slowpixel. Outlaw has designed every one of their products themselves, and the only outsourcing they have done is assembly. They have sourced zero of their product from other manufacturers, and that is a fact that not even your stupid lies can erase.

Keep on digging yourself in with your lies and misinfo.
Outlaw HAS NEVER BUILT ANYTHING, dont have to as they have others doing the work for them.
They are a marketing company, selling the idea of cheap stuff over the net due to
reduced food chain, they are answering a marketing niche.
Nothing wrong with that, doesnt make them an audio company tho.


Sherwood designed a receiver with the Trinnov set up system. That receiver is much more simplistic in design that what Outlaw was going to release. The Outlaw version of the Trinnov setup is far more complicated than the Sherwood receiver, hence why it it both different, and far more difficult to design. Every aspect of the Outlaw processor was going to be more sophisticated than the Sherwood receiver. It was so far more difficult to assemble that complications set the final design of the pre-pro far back than Outlaw could predict, hence the announcements of delay, and now the cancellation of the 997. Sherwood has already released its receiver, and quite frankly it was full of bugs, but much easier to design, logic would lean towards Outlaw making a wise decision in this case.

LOGIC would guide Outlaw to clone a better manufacturer next time.
They went with Sherwood last time to save a buck, and it cost them.
THEY NEED to try to copy quality next time



Once again I am going to tell you that a little critical thinking goes a long way. Not enough thinking makes you look foolish and ignorant.

And thats what, do as I say, not as I do?
Nothing wrong with my "thinking", and "thinking " has nothing to do with just stating the facts, facts being something you are woefully deficient in.



Can you name a single Outlaw product this scenario applies to? And just what company created Outlaw aside from Outlaw?

ATI did their amps, or at least used to, don't know if they still do.




Can you tell me how the practices of a Beer company(any of them would do) operate just like Outlaw?

All companies have certain production standards.
Some product doesnt meet that standard but can still be used.
So substandard COORS becomes Keystone, Substandard MILLER becomes
MILWALKEES BEST.
And the substandard product of an audio company has to wind up somewhere.
Dont know for a fact , but it wouldnt surprize me if it winds up with an outlaw badge.
Doesnt mean its not fit to use, just not top drawer



The weakness and down right untruthfulness of your arguments is staggering but par for the course for you faultypixel.

In other words I am telling a truth that your corporate masters dont want talked about.
There are those of us that haven't sold their souls quite yet.:1:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Pix, anyone who has known the history of Outlaw knows that you are a bald face liar. I am going to leave it at that.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Pix, anyone who has known the history of Outlaw knows that you are a bald face liar. I am going to leave it at that. You are such a gullible nitwit for drinking the cool aid of internet rumors.

[pixelthis]

Pix, anyone who has known the history of Outlaw knows that you are a bald face liar. I am going to leave it at that. You are such a gullible nitwit for drinking the cool aid of internet rumors.

REFUTE what I say or quit with the namecalling.

Not that I care, any reader of this thread knows who won this one.:1:

[Ajani]

Pix, I've seen several threads on other sites that claim that Outlaw products were made by ATI... I have no idea whether that is true or not... However, I just came across this thread today about Emotiva and Sherbourn:

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preamps&action=display&thread=9734&page=1

So does it really even matter? The issue should be whether you are getting a good quality product at a reasonable price, not whether there is a load of rebadging, shared production costs, etc....

[pixelthis]

Pix, I've seen several threads on other sites that claim that Outlaw products were made by ATI... I have no idea whether that is true or not... However, I just came across this thread today about Emotiva and Sherbourn:

http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preamps&action=display&thread=9734&page=1

So does it really even matter? The issue should be whether you are getting a good quality product at a reasonable price, not whether there is a load of rebadging, shared production costs, etc....


This is a good link, lots of info, and basically what I have been saying.
Being of modest means, I can't afford to pay top dollar, so I got to where I can spot
high end that has been rebadged at a lower price.
It started with Matshuhita(PANNISONIC) , they would sell the same VCR in half a dozen
different name brands.
I bought a Quasar for quite a bit less, basically a Panasonic, not much different.
And I dont care, just beleive in stating the facts.
If Outlaw wants to rebadge stuff and sell it, fine, its a free country.
The only problem is that they dont come down on price.
Doesnt matter if others make their stuff to order, or they just slap their name on it,
if their stuff costs about as much as "name brand", then what good are they, is all I am saying.
Just dont do like Talky and pretend the emperour has clothes, and that this is a serious audio company.
Like Rolls used to brag that they put the best GM tranny in their cars.:1: