Israel shows US who's boss

[Feanor]

We'd been naive to believe that the timing Israeli announcement of additional Jewish settlement in East Jerusalem was an accident. It is more than an careless insult to the US, it is a test of the power of the Zionist lobby in that country. We'll be able to tell if it worked by the rigor of the official US response; I'm not expecting much.

But first, let's ask ourselves what is really in the interest of Israel as well as world peace and US security? Like the US government, (at least the current one), I believe it's peace between Israel, the Palestinians. The US government and I also believe that the peace requires a reasonable accommodation of the Palestinians which is a two-state solution on fair terms.

On the other hand right-wing Zionist have never been satisfied with the two-state solution going right back to the original 1947 UN proposal. Many firmly believe that the divine mandate is the ancient extent of the empires of David and Solomon that included most of present-day Jordan, Lebanon, a parts of Syria. Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli PM, has made his coalition government beholden to these extremists, (not that that presented much of a moral dilema for him I expect). This minority has always worked to subvert any compromises in that regard -- and they have powerful means to subvert them in many countries, most significantly in the US.

Perhaps the biggest player there is the American Israel Political Action Committee, (AIPAC), just another special interest group but one very adept at manipulating American politicians, notably through campaign funding to strongly pro-Israeli candidates -- or counter-funding those who are the least bit critical. In an TV interview a couple of years ago I recall Jimmy Carter saying US politicians who threatened to challenge Israel-centric policy "just wouldn't get elected".

I fear the think the current incident will reveal once again the vice grip the Zionist lobby has on the short-and-curlies of American politicians. In justice, not to mention in the interest of regional and world peace, the US ought to be calling for sanctions against Israel's treatment of Palestinians and flouting of UN resolutions. Ha! What chance of that, right?

Of course the best is yet to come in terms of US politician being bought off by special interests now that the Supreme Court is allowing corporations unrestricted campaign contributions.

BTW, it's all 3LB's fault that I offer make these observations; he's the one who challenged, "Maybe you could offer up some insight instead of the usual neener-nanner".

[3LB]

Hey, don't drag me into your anti-semetic rantings!

[Feanor]

Hey, don't drag me into your anti-semetic rantings!
What did I say that was anti-semetic?

It is utterly wrong to equate criticism of ultra-Zionist policies with anti-semetism. To do so is to argue a "special case" for Israel rather judge it by the standard for other countries.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

What did I say that was anti-semetic?

It is utterly wrong to equate criticism of ultra-Zionist policies with anti-semetism. To do so is to argue a "special case" for Israel rather judge it by the standard for other countries.

Calling somebody a anti-semite is supposed to be a conversation ender, much like calling somebody a racist. Don't buy what he is selling, there was nothing you said that was anti semitic. I am a big Israel supporter, I will not deny that. But enough is enough. Every time we have tried to get the two parties talking, either Israel or the Palestinians do things to each other to derail the process. This time I am laying the blame purely on Israel, and I must admit, I do not like the game they are currently playing with the US. If this kind of action persists, I am for just backing out of the whole process, and letting Israel hang themselves with their own games. Personally, I think it is time to end unconditional support for Israel, maybe the reality of that will get them to the table. I think what they are doing is really becoming dangerous for the US, and I think AIPAC needs to decide whether the interests of Israel is more important than the security of the US.

I think it is very telling when Israel thumbs their nose at the US, and when we respond, AIPAC gets angry at the US. Something is truly wrong with that picture.

[thekid]

I think 3LB is just lighting a few matches here but for the sake of argument here is a definition.

anti-Semitic (-sə mit′ik)

adjective

1.having or showing prejudice against Jews

I don't think being against or in disagreement with the political positions of the government of Israel means you are anti-semetic anymore than say being against the political positions of Italy means you are anti-Catholic. There are people who are Isreali citizens but are not Jews (a small minority I know) and it is an all too common attack that someone who does not support everything the Isreali government does must be an anti-semite. IMO people in that corner of the world who define themselves solely by their religious beliefs is one of the reasons there is no peace.

[3LB]

God blesses those who bless Israel (and I'm sure the exact opposite is implied for those who don't). I mean, who wants to get smited...right? I'm sure Israel is well acquainted with the US' templaristic leanings.

[blackraven]

We won't see peace between Israel and the Palastines in our life time. There are too many factions that prey on the poor and destitute Palastinian's. When Y. Arafat was in power and negotiating with Israel, the Israeli's made concessions all the while Arafat was scheming and planning terrorist attacks. Israel knows that Palastine does not want peace until Israel gives back all its lands and Israel is no more.

[Feanor]

....
I am a big Israel supporter, I will not deny that. But enough is enough. Every time we have tried to get the two parties talking, either Israel or the Palestinians do things to each other to derail the process. This time I am laying the blame purely on Israel, and I must admit, I do not like the game they are currently playing with the US. If this kind of action persists, I am for just backing out of the whole process, and letting Israel hang themselves with their own games. Personally, I think it is time to end unconditional support for Israel, maybe the reality of that will get them to the table. I think what they are doing is really becoming dangerous for the US, and I think AIPAC needs to decide whether the interests of Israel is more important than the security of the US.
....
I have admired, and still do admire, Israel in many respects, and on the flip side I don't see much to admire about her Arab neighbours or the Palestinans, at least not their governments. And let me be clear: I don't agree with the extremist notion that Israel ought to be pushed into the sea. That wouldn't be justice at this point in history

But objectively speaking, the value of Israel as an ally has declined a lot since the end of the Cold War. Meanwhile the importance of the US seeming fair-handed towards Muslim and other nations outside of NA and Europe had greatly increased. It's time over due that Israel understood this and acted accordingly. But no: instead they rely on their US lobbies and special interest groups to persuade US politicians to continue to support them unconditionally.

In that regard I was disgusted when Joe Biden not long ago insisted there was "absolutely not gap" between US and Israel policies -- if there isn't there should be when it comes to Netanyahu and his coalitian partners

[Feanor]

We won't see peace between Israel and the Palastines in our life time. There are too many factions that prey on the poor and destitute Palastinian's. When Y. Arafat was in power and negotiating with Israel, the Israeli's made concessions all the while Arafat was scheming and planning terrorist attacks. Israel knows that Palastine does not want peace until Israel gives back all its lands and Israel is no more.
That could very well be. Personally I've never seen much to admire about the attitude or tactics of the Palestinians nor their Arab neighbours. On the other hand powerful factions in Israel have been delighted to exploit the foolishness these parties to continue land-grabs and generally oppress Arabs in Israel.

I believe the most just solution today is the two-state solution. For that matter it was probably the most just solution in 1947 but it was rejected then by both sides. Israelis exloited the situation to grab far more land then the UN apportionment. There are right-wing Zionist factions still today who relish the Hamas position and prefer the no-peace option as means to grab more. It's time the US put the hammer down on these factions.

[emaidel]

Leon Uris wrote an outstanding book called, "The Haj," which I read while the first Iraq/U.S. war (Desert Storm) was raging. Some of the statements from the Arabs in the novel exactly paralleled what we were hearing from Hussein's "front-man" (I can't remember his name - perhaps a member can help me out here). In the midst of devastating losses, the Arabs continually made such outrageous statements as, "Blessings to Allah. We have routed the Zionist dogs," and other such out and out lies.

Israel isn't blameless in the never-ending dispute between themselves and the Palestinians, but "The Haj" made a statement that seems to be quite prophetic: "There will NEVER be peace in the middle-east."

I believe that's true, and the recent decision to expand settlements into Jerusalem is a clear example of why.

[JSE]

Calling somebody a anti-semite is supposed to be a conversation ender, much like calling somebody a racist. Don't buy what he is selling, there was nothing you said that was anti semitic. I am a big Israel supporter, I will not deny that. But enough is enough. Every time we have tried to get the two parties talking, either Israel or the Palestinians do things to each other to derail the process. This time I am laying the blame purely on Israel, and I must admit, I do not like the game they are currently playing with the US. If this kind of action persists, I am for just backing out of the whole process, and letting Israel hang themselves with their own games. Personally, I think it is time to end unconditional support for Israel, maybe the reality of that will get them to the table. I think what they are doing is really becoming dangerous for the US, and I think AIPAC needs to decide whether the interests of Israel is more important than the security of the US.

I think it is very telling when Israel thumbs their nose at the US, and when we respond, AIPAC gets angry at the US. Something is truly wrong with that picture.

I have a similar view, believe it or not.

I say let them (Israel & Palestinians) duke it out themselves and let's get the hell out of the way. I think the bottom line is neither side is truly interested in peace and we are just spinning our wheels thinking we can actually help. Like you said, while they continue to play games, we get dragged through the mud.

I'm done with the whole mess.

JSE