Does anyone know anything about windows?

[ForeverAutumn]

I'm so confused!

We have a nice big bay window on the front of our house that we've decided to replace. We've had three companies quote so far and another one is coming tomorrow night. Of course every company is telling us that they have the best quality windows and best installers.

It is so hard to compare apples to apples because everyone is telling us something different. Just as an example, one company told us that a stainless steel frame between the panes is good because it won't bend or warp over time. Another company told us that stainless steel between the panes is bad because it absorbs extreme temperatures and the cold metal will create moisture between the panes in the winter. They use insulated vinyl instead of steel.

What do I need to know? What should I be looking for and what should I be avoiding? Can anyone help? I know nothing about this process and the research that I've done so far hasn't helped much. The one thing that I have made sure of is that all of the window brands that we look at are Energy Star rated and government approved. Thanks.

[3LB]

tell them you'll buy a window from whomever will give you an extended warranty. FWIW: I knew that sweating was a knock against aluminum frames, but I ain't never seen no stainless frames.

[02audionoob]

When it comes to energy performance, metal would be the most difficult to deal with because of its conductivity. The best metal windows have a non-conductive concealed thermal break so the exterior metal isn't truly in contact with the interior metal, but it's not common at the residential level of quality. Without a thermal break, metal going through the window will get very cold and will sweat on the warm side. That can cause mold if it keeps happening. Most Energy Star certified windows are going to be non-metal, since Energy Star is a certification for the residential level of quality.

Vinyl windows will ordinarily be less-durable than many metal windows, but that's not usually a big issue. Windows don't take that much abuse. Vinyl will not have the structural strength of metal windows, but that's not usually an issue at the residential level. It could be an issue with a bay window, though. It's a judgment call. Given that vinyl doesn't conduct heat to anywhere near the level of metal, vinyl will be better for thermal purposes. The warping issue would come from vinyl's high coefficient of expansion under heat and its flexibility. If they're rigidly fastened and they expand, it stands to reason they could bow outward and create air leaks, quite an energy problem in itself. If they contract, they could leave air gaps around the wall opening.

That said, I say the key is the name and the warranty. Two windows with equal specs are not equal if one is Pella, Marvin, Andersen, Kolbe, etc. and the other is Windows-R-Us.

[Mr Peabody]

I had some windows installed last year. Most in my region use Argon gas but it's actually only twice as dense as air. There's another gas used that is 4 times and one that is 8 times as dense. As you are in Canada these may be available. I forgot the name of the gas as it's been nearly a year since I researched windows. I think one was Delta 8. As far as the frames go I think it's like many things where there are more than one approach and each have good and bad applications. What's funny is I did all this research online and most of the people selling the windows didn't have any idea what i was talking about. i guess I was over informed. I did find this a bit odd. For instance, no one heard of the other two gases I referred to. I was also told wood frames weren't as good. What I ended up doing is researching the Better Business Bureau to see who rated well and just contacted the best ones to see what they had to offer. Does Canada have a version of the BBB? We ended up going with Pella windoes. They have a Designer series where the blinds are inside the window that we liked. No dust collecting on the blinds or cleaning to do. Incidentally, they do happen to be wood frame. They also made a big difference in how much my AC ran over the summer. Even on the hottest days the AC would shut off.

The bottom line I feel after doing this that the company selling the product is probably the most important. A good rating should generally mean they have a good product and the company does a good job with it.

No one I found does a double or triple pane Garden window. We entertained a Bay window and Pella does them. They use their regular insulated windows in the Bay window but custom build the seat and frame part. After seeing the total for a door unit and all the windows we decided to scratch the Bay and just go with the double hung that was there in the beginning. I hope this helps some I wrote a lot but don't feel like I gave you much to go on. It is an uneasy feeling though going into something that you have no idea about. And windows aren't a cheap upgrade. I did learn the companies baiting you with cheap prices per window are leaving out hidden costs or you need to run away from them.

[02audionoob]

The other gas options I've seen are krypton and xenon. My favorite type of window construction is actually the aluminum-clad wood. They come with nailing fins, which are not present on regular wood windows. The nailing fins close the air gap and protect the perimeter from water leakage. The metal provides a durable surface that doesn't require periodic painting. The wood is relatively non-conductive so it prevents the condensation issue of metal alone.

[ForeverAutumn]

Audionoob, you sound like you know what you're talking about. What's your experience in this area?

From what I've seen so far, our options seem to be vinyl or wood. We're leaning towards vinyl because they are more cost effective (important on a large brick to brick replacement) and less maintainance. No one has recommended aluminium-clad windows.

The only gas that I've seen is Argon gas.

Like Audionoob said, all the windows have similar specs and they all claim to be better than their competitors. The differences that are easy to spot are in the details like the design of the handles on the casement windows, the number of latches on the casements, how the screens attach (pins, clips, magnets). All the windows have the same certifications and warranties.

Am I missing anything that I should be paying attention to? Should I just take the windows at face value, assume that they are all good, and focus on the installer? A great window is only as good as the installation.

I have looked up all the installers on Homestars. Two are rated very highly and two only have a couple of reviews...not enough to be conclusive one way or another. I haven't checked the BBB, but I will.

[3LB]

I think vinyl is sufficient for your area. You don't see vinyl areas where they experience high temperatures.

[ForeverAutumn]

I think vinyl is sufficient for your area. You don't see vinyl areas where they experience high temperatures.

Unfortunately, high temperatures aren't usually an issue here. We may get into the low 30s (celsius) in July and August, but generally we don't see that for an extended period of time. I'm more concerned about keeping the cold air out and the hot air in during the winter than the other way around during the summer.

[02audionoob]

My primary experience with windows is that I'm an architect and therefore commonly have a need to specify the windows or design them. I also have some personal experience with them at my own house or helping others with their houses. I don't have a huge amount of residential experience, but I do try to keep up with the products.
　
The advantages I see with clad windows are not only what I mentioned before but also their durability and dimensional stability. The metal surface is durable on its own but is made even tougher by having the wood substrate. Wood on its own is dimensionally stable and should hold its shape and length well...even better when permanently protected by metal. The wood is also a good thermal break.
　
My next choice would easily be wood windows. I have wood windows that are original to my 90-year-old house, as far as I know. They have the old slightly ripply plate glass, as opposed to today's smooth float glass. They have ropes and counterweights on each sash...also old technology. Quality wood windows, like the Marvin Ultimate Double Hung are like a quality model of many things...you have to see it and touch it to appreciate it. Even though I was trying to economize on our room addition, the operable windows were something I never considered skimping on. I went with wood double-hungs and casements. That was largely driven by a desire to match the old windows, but I would have changed to another variety if necessary for quality purposes. I chose to live with the fact that I'll need to paint them.
　
If this is a replacement project on a brick house, you might need to give careful consideration how these windows are to be installed. The vinyl and metal residential windows I've seen are nailed on the face of the outside wall before the brick goes on. If you are trying to install replacement windows in an existing brick wall, you wouldn't have the option of the conventional installation. The last time I helped someone make such a decision, I advised replacing only the glass, which is what the homeowner eventually did. It looked too disruptive to remove the existing nail-fin windows.
　
In actual application of gases in insulating glass, I've seen only argon, too. I think there are also still a fair number of windows and custom glass applications still using dehydrated air. The argon will give you somewhat better thermal resistance through the glass area than air. Of course, more-exotic gases like krypton are even less conductive than argon...so maybe half as much heat gets through krypton units as argon units and maybe a third as much as with air. That's somewhat of a theoretical issue, in my opinion, since the heat transfer through the argon units isn't really a problem.
　
As an aside...If you don't need operable sashes on the bay window, you could also go with custom glass units framed into a wall, like I did on the connection from my original house to a room addition, shown here...
　
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4438124471_bd56f9b537_o.jpg
　
That's not as expensive as it might seem, but its air infiltration would not test nearly as well as a manufactured window. Air infiltration is a two-fold issue...conditioned air lost in the leakage area and airborne water leakage coming in. Given the amount of shelter the pictured area has, water is no problem for us.
　
So back to windows and back to quality. I absolutely would not advocate assuming the windows are all good. They're probably all going to meet the same specs and test results because the industry has good standardized methods for specifying and testing. That certainly doesn't make them equal quality. I was involved in a recent project for an apartment building where the general contractor chose the windows and convinced us all to use them and then voluntarily removed them and changed to what we originally specified when their choice of windows started failing the water testing that the specs said they meet.
　
It might be true that a great window is only as good as the installation...but it isn't that easy to build a great window. These companies that have been building wood windows for a hundred years didn't make it all this time for no good reason. Sometimes it just comes down to making a quality product and letting that speak for itself.

[Mr Peabody]

Argon is supposed to be twice as dense as air, Crypton was the one that is 4 times as dense and then the Delta 8 was the 8 times as dense. I wonder why we are made aware of the more dense gas if no one uses them. I agree though that I couldn't find any one who used anything but Argon. Maybe they use this other stuff in the Arctic :)

http://www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/messages/68965.html

[ForeverAutumn]

Thanks noob. I didn't know that you are an architect. It's interesting to find out new things about the people here. :)

The current window is wood, the original builder's window, and 40 years old. So I don't think that we'll have the issue that you mentioned about it being nailed in before the brick went on. But it's good to know.

We considered a retrofit into the existing wooden frame but decided that we prefer a brick to brick replacement. The house that we purchased has been neglected. Neither the wood or the vinyl casing are in very good shape. We've decided that we'd prefer to replace the full window and frame now and start anew. The additional cost is not all that significant in the grand scheme of things.

We definately want casement windows that open. The current window does not open and I hate it. The way that our main floor is designed leaves very little opportunity for fresh air from the windows at the back of the house to find its way to the living/dining room. We need windows in the living room that open to the outside.

The challenge that I'm having with windows is that there appears to be very little in the way of independent third party research and testing. It's very frustrating for me. I'm trying to educate myself but there is just no consistency in what I'm reading. I think that I'm just going to have to go into showrooms, talk to salesmen, visit web sites and try to weed out the bull.

I've already sort of ruled out one company today due to the lack of information on their web site when compared to other companies. It could just be that they don't have a good web site...or it could be that they just don't have as good a story to tell. There are enough options out there that I don't need to take the risk.

I've only priced vinyl so far, but perhaps I'll get a price on wood also based on your comments.

[ForeverAutumn]

Argon is supposed to be twice as dense as air, Crypton was the one that is 4 times as dense and then the Delta 8 was the 8 times as dense.

I don't want to use Krypton. What if Superman needs to get in???

[Mr Peabody]

Does Superman visit a lot?

If Pella is available and fits your needs I have been very happy with mine. They have a decent website and a variety of series.

[02audionoob]

I think maybe I wasn't clear about the vinyl windows. The problem with nail-fin installations in an existing brick wall is that the conventional place where you nail the window is on the outside face of the stud wall, which is behind the brick. You get better weather resistance by nailing windows on the outside face, but you have no access to do that with the existing brick in the way.
　
Another thing you might want to consider is re-sale value. In my neighborhood, vinyl windows or vinyl siding would bring down the value of the house as compared to wood windows or wood siding.
　
As much as I'd like to have access to research and testing if I were in your shoes, on my own house I simply went with a very established window manufacturer that I felt comfortable with. I never looked at a test result, even though I look at them in the course of specifying windows for a commercial building.

By the way...the density of the other two gases does not determine their performance in a window. Just think how much denser than air steel is. Steel wouldn't make a good insulating core between the glass, though.

[3LB]

My primary experience with windows is that I'm an architect and therefore commonly have a need to specify the windows or design them. I also have some personal experience with them at my own house or helping others with their houses. I don't have a huge amount of residential experience, but I do try to keep up with the products.
　
The advantages I see with clad windows are not only what I mentioned before but also their durability and dimensional stability. The metal surface is durable on its own but is made even tougher by having the wood substrate. Wood on its own is dimensionally stable and should hold its shape and length well...even better when permanently protected by metal. The wood is also a good thermal break.
　
My next choice would easily be wood windows. I have wood windows that are original to my 90-year-old house, as far as I know. They have the old slightly ripply plate glass, as opposed to today's smooth float glass. They have ropes and counterweights on each sash...also old technology. Quality wood windows, like the Marvin Ultimate Double Hung are like a quality model of many things...you have to see it and touch it to appreciate it. Even though I was trying to economize on our room addition, the operable windows were something I never considered skimping on. I went with wood double-hungs and casements. That was largely driven by a desire to match the old windows, but I would have changed to another variety if necessary for quality purposes. I chose to live with the fact that I'll need to paint them.
　
If this is a replacement project on a brick house, you might need to give careful consideration how these windows are to be installed. The vinyl and metal residential windows I've seen are nailed on the face of the outside wall before the brick goes on. If you are trying to install replacement windows in an existing brick wall, you wouldn't have the option of the conventional installation. The last time I helped someone make such a decision, I advised replacing only the glass, which is what the homeowner eventually did. It looked too disruptive to remove the existing nail-fin windows.
　
In actual application of gases in insulating glass, I've seen only argon, too. I think there are also still a fair number of windows and custom glass applications still using dehydrated air. The argon will give you somewhat better thermal resistance through the glass area than air. Of course, more-exotic gases like krypton are even less conductive than argon...so maybe half as much heat gets through krypton units as argon units and maybe a third as much as with air. That's somewhat of a theoretical issue, in my opinion, since the heat transfer through the argon units isn't really a problem.
　
As an aside...If you don't need operable sashes on the bay window, you could also go with custom glass units framed into a wall, like I did on the connection from my original house to a room addition, shown here...
　
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4438124471_bd56f9b537_o.jpg
　
That's not as expensive as it might seem, but its air infiltration would not test nearly as well as a manufactured window. Air infiltration is a two-fold issue...conditioned air lost in the leakage area and airborne water leakage coming in. Given the amount of shelter the pictured area has, water is no problem for us.
　
So back to windows and back to quality. I absolutely would not advocate assuming the windows are all good. They're probably all going to meet the same specs and test results because the industry has good standardized methods for specifying and testing. That certainly doesn't make them equal quality. I was involved in a recent project for an apartment building where the general contractor chose the windows and convinced us all to use them and then voluntarily removed them and changed to what we originally specified when their choice of windows started failing the water testing that the specs said they meet.
　
It might be true that a great window is only as good as the installation...but it isn't that easy to build a great window. These companies that have been building wood windows for a hundred years didn't make it all this time for no good reason. Sometimes it just comes down to making a quality product and letting that speak for itself.

wow...you managed to parlay your vast knowledge regarding windows in great detail, without calling anyone names...well done sir!

[ForeverAutumn]

wow...you managed to parlay your vast knowledge regarding windows in great detail, without calling anyone names...well done sir!

Hey. Audionoob is trying to help me. Don't start trouble in my thread. :nono:

[ForeverAutumn]

Does Superman visit a lot?

Well no. I've never needed him. But if I'm ever in trouble and he can come to my rescue, I don't want a little thing like gas in my windows stopping him. :)


If Pella is available and fits your needs I have been very happy with mine. They have a decent website and a variety of series.

I haven't seen that brand here. The brands that I'm mostly looking at right now are Vinyl Window Designs Limited and Ostaco.

[Mr Peabody]

02AN, probably right about the gas not being the critical thing. From what I understand the frame and seal to hold the gas in is the important thing. I was told the gas escaping is what allows the moisture in. It sound like you and I ended up basically taking the same approach with our replacement.

[02audionoob]

I checked the website of Vinyl Window Designs Limited and Ostaco. They both seem to offer windows without the nail fin, which means they can be used in replacement situations. These are windows that would not be in Pella's league, so I suppose you'll see a hefty price difference when you price wood windows. Now these people look like they build some windows... http://www.loewen.com/home.nsf/about

[blackraven]

We built our house and had Low E windows installed. They are supposed to keep the heat in during the winter and keep it out during the summer. They also inhibit UV damage. We have been happy with them here in the harsh climate of Minnesota. And of course, every one here replaces their windows with Anderson since the company is located here in Stillwater MN.

[3LB]

Hey. Audionoob is trying to help me. Don't start trouble in my thread. :nono:Oh heaven's no...Audionoob has never...it was ironic humor (I was on my phone and I guess the emoticon didn't post - it was a ;) )

but I do wished he had given a more detailed answer






















;)

[ForeverAutumn]

I checked the website of Vinyl Window Designs Limited and Ostaco. They both seem to offer windows without the nail fin, which means they can be used in replacement situations. These are windows that would not be in Pella's league, so I suppose you'll see a hefty price difference when you price wood windows. Now these people look like they build some windows... http://www.loewen.com/home.nsf/about

Thanks again. Those Loewen windows are beautiful. But I'm guessing way over our budget. I looked up Pella windows and it turns out that there is a showroom about a 10 minute drive from my house. So I'm going to go talk to them on Saturday. It looks like they carry both wood and vinyl.

We're replacing both a window and a door right now. I have a budget in mind for both of them, but I'd be willing to spend the full budget on the window and delay the door replacement for a while if it means getting the right window and the right look. So I'm not against the additional cost of wood (within reason) if we feel its justified.

If life goes as planned, we'll be in this house for 20+ years. So I'm not too concerned about resale value. Chances are very good that by the time we sell the house the renovations that we're doing now will all be outdated and need to be redone anyway. And if life doesn't go as planned...either I'll have bigger concerns than the return on my window or I'll be a lottery winner and won't care. My fingers are crossed for the latter. :D

You've been a huge help AN. I really appreciate this!

[ForeverAutumn]

Oh heaven's no...Audionoob has never...it was ironic humor (I was on my phone and I guess the emoticon didn't post - it was a ;) )

but I do wished he had given a more detailed answer
;)

My apology then. I thought that I detected some malicious sarcasm. Carry on with you fun. :)

[Mr Peabody]

The Pella, Designer series is one of the more expensive but when you see how they work and being a Bay window you might go the expense. They're the ones I mentioned have the blinds on the inside of the window. They are only Double hung style though. Pella also carry windows that slide open and crank open. As you will see they also have a wide variety of doors.

[ForeverAutumn]

The Pella, Designer series is one of the more expensive but when you see how they work and being a Bay window you might go the expense. They're the ones I mentioned have the blinds on the inside of the window. They are only Double hung style though. Pella also carry windows that slide open and crank open. As you will see they also have a wide variety of doors.

I liked what I saw on their website as far as design. The blinds between the panes are an interesting idea. I'm definatley looking for casements and not double hung though.

I never knew that shopping for windows would be so difficult. Buying a new kitchen was easier than this (and way more fun)!

[02audionoob]

I would certainly concur with the Pella recommendation. And Marvin makes what I think are really nice wood casements and double-hungs.

As an aside, it's interesting to me how the major US manufacturers of windows are mostly huddled in blackraven's neck of the woods. All of the manufacturers we've mentioned are in Minnesota, Iowa and Wisconsin.

I noticed one of your vinyl choices brags about their high solar heat gain coefficient. That's a new way of looking at it. The point of Low-E windows is to reduce solar gain.

Edit: On the Low-E issue...I don't mean to at all dismiss the concept of a high solar heat gain coefficient. It sounds like it would really be the right idea in cold climates. It's new to me, but I live in a hot climate.

[ForeverAutumn]

We live in a very humid area. Would that cause a problem with the wood expanding and windows sticking in the humid summer months?

[3LB]

My apology then. I thought that I detected some malicious sarcasm. Carry on with you fun. :)
No need to apologize, it was malicious sarcasm, just not directed at 'Noob :D

[02audionoob]

We live in a very humid area. Would that cause a problem with the wood expanding and windows sticking in the humid summer months?

In quality modern wood windows like Marvin, Pella, etc. you don't have the old-style simple configuration of a wood sash sliding in a snug wood groove. It's a little more sophisticated than that and wouldn't be susceptible to that issue. The slide area is usually more of a tongue and groove made of rigid vinyl or similar non-wood connection.
　
Humidity can be more of a problem in the winter. In the cold months, interior humidity can cause condensation that drips onto the wood and eventually causes issues, so it's good to try to keep the interior of the windows dry. I say "eventually" because good windows are going to outlive you and me both, even with occasional condensation. You just don't want it to be too frequent. There are a few things you can do to help reduce condensation, such as running a dehumidifier or keeping the window coverings open at least a little. Running the dishwasher, cooking with open pots, doing laundry, taking hot showers, etc. will contribute, so any ventilation for those activities is good in a humid climate. Just as an example, when it's 0F/-18C outside, you could start getting condensation at only 30 percent indoor relative humidity.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I have dimensional stability.

Hope that helps!

[blackraven]

The Pella, Designer series is one of the more expensive but when you see how they work and being a Bay window you might go the expense. They're the ones I mentioned have the blinds on the inside of the window. They are only Double hung style though. Pella also carry windows that slide open and crank open. As you will see they also have a wide variety of doors.

Thoswe Pella windows with the blinds inside are great. We have some friends that have them and we are replacing our sliding door to our deck with those this summer.

[ForeverAutumn]

Thoswe Pella windows with the blinds inside are great. We have some friends that have them and we are replacing our sliding door to our deck with those this summer.

What happens if the blind breaks? How easy are they to repair if the blind is inside the window?

[Feanor]

What happens if the blind breaks? How easy are they to repair if the blind is inside the window?
Ha! That was a big consideration for me when I replaced my sliding patio doors a couple of years ago. My philosoply is to avoid complicate options unless you really need them because they will break before you're done with the main item.

[blackraven]

What happens if the blind breaks? How easy are they to repair if the blind is inside the window?

I'm not sure what the warranty is on the blinds but the one that we saw uses a totally diffent mechanism than standard blinds and it looks like it will hold up to abuse. You might want to do a google search and check the reliablitiy.