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Hyfi
03-09-2010, 08:35 AM
I tried watching a bogus download of this a while back. Someone setup a camera and video'd his TV. The end of the rip was not even there.

I just rented it last week and was able to watch it without distraction and all the way through to the end. I'm not surprised that this one is lacking the attention most of MMs films get. Although the point being made is worth a look, it is mostly a cluge of old films, commercials, speeches, and interviews.

The film just basically points out the fact that we have all been screwed since FDR times. It offers no solutions, suggestions or anything real useful. The movie just leaves you with a bad feeling about politics in general and how immoral people really are.

Free Enterprise does not have to be a bad thing. I have no problem with people making a whole lot of money, as long as it is not at the expense of the people making the items sold, or the people buying them. When you have someone selling an item for $100, that costs .79c to make, and the employee is a 3rd world slaver making $1.00 a day, I have a problem. Just how much does it cost to make that $170 pair of Nike sneakers?

It's time people stopped screwing others for personal gain.

Anyone else see this one? Comments?

RGA
03-09-2010, 11:44 AM
"It's time people stopped screwing others for personal gain."

Unfortunately that IS what capitalism is all about. To increase capital must decrease capital someplace else. In a utopoian Star Trek world it might not be the case but we're not getting there anytime soon.

The words Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism are just that words. China is a communist country according to the press. Communism bad according to the propaganda governments - and everyone argues over philosophy - but China is a capitalistic country through and through. Not surprising to see the ultra capitalistic countries open shop in China.

You don't have to pay living wages, you don't need to worry about green peace demands for pollution controls, don't have to pay into medical or pension plans, no minimum wages. It's perfect to compete at any cost.

Then the big lousy american cars that no one buys get into trouble and the people across the U.S. have to pay to bail them out - a very socialist thing to do in fact. Using the pool of the people's money to help someone. Of course the US government is completely twisted. Instead of France and every other western nation that POOLS the people's money to help the people by giving them health care and good pensions etc - The US government pools the people's money and helps a big bloated useless private company by giving them billions of dollars that could have provided free medical for the nation.

And those bailed out companies still will not get saved because they're still incompetent, they still build utter garbage. The idea that Toyota may lose some customers and will go back to the Americans is not realistic. If they left American junk to go Japanese - they may not buy a Toyota next time but Honda (a better maker anyway) is still around, and Suzuki, Subaru, Mazda,m and they would probably still try out a Kia/Hundai before they went back to American makes. I know I would.

I enjoyed the movie - it wasn't as well focussed as his others but still enjoyable and illustrates how screwy the mindset is. The population will gladly fork over their saving to help General Motors - but they won't fork out those dollars for medical care to save their fellow citizens and possibly themselves in the future when their HMO eventually screws them over. Capitalism is a business survival of the fittest - but when the Americans come out on the losing end of that game the government uses the money in a protectionism scheme to help them put the chips back in the ring. China will eventually win this capitalism war - their currency has long been the dominant world currency - it's just not advertised as such. They have all the people, they don't consider the environment, or their people's welfare - and that means they are better capitalists. The only way America can fight back is to change their system to something else - dump all the resources into the betterment of the society - socialism to the hilt and piles of money into a pathetic education system would be a start.

It requires the people to think of community and the society as a whole over their own personal wealth - and this is a good thing that in America seems to have been subverted as evil. Creating a good society where people help eachother IS socialsim - so how is socialism bad? Eesh - pretty weird.

Umm but yes I'm Canadian. LOL :15:

Also - it doesn't mean you get rid of capitalism - Canada is a blend. Just put things into proper perspective and value things slightly differently. People and society first, money and personal wealth later. Business makes the world go round - it shouldn't. People and society should but we're not there yet. So business is still important. You still have to allow that many people want the toys. Fine. They have to pay higher taxes but not so high as to take their drive and passion away. You can become a billionaire in Canada and other socialistic countries - it may be harder to be a billionaire - but isn't capitalism supposed to be about the "challenge" too?

China may win the money war in the next 30 years - but their country is dirty, grubby and rather souless. That is capitalism - money at the expense of all else and you get this http://sayiamgreen.com/blog/2009/09/the-10-most-polluted-cities-in-the-world/

I would rather be homeless living in a tent in British Columbia than a billionaire and have to live in Linfen (pictured in the link above) and there are many billionaires in China and living in Linfen.

Feanor
03-09-2010, 11:48 AM
I tried watching a bogus download of this a while back. Someone setup a camera and video'd his TV. The end of the rip was not even there.

I just rented it last week and was able to watch it without distraction and all the way through to the end. I'm not surprised that this one is lacking the attention most of MMs films get. Although the point being made is worth a look, it is mostly a cluge of old films, commercials, speeches, and interviews.

The film just basically points out the fact that we have all been screwed since FDR times. It offers no solutions, suggestions or anything real useful. The movie just leaves you with a bad feeling about politics in general and how immoral people really are.

Free Enterprise does not have to be a bad thing. I have no problem with people making a whole lot of money, as long as it is not at the expense of the people making the items sold, or the people buying them. When you have someone selling an item for $100, that costs .79c to make, and the employee is a 3rd world slaver making $1.00 a day, I have a problem. Just how much does it cost to make that $170 pair of Nike sneakers?

It's time people stopped screwing others for personal gain.

Anyone else see this one? Comments?
Moore films having been get better sporatically. Sicko, at least, was relatively coherent. So yes, I'll watch Capitalism: A Love Story as soon as it shows up from Zip.ca.

A pretty good book I read recently was The Culture of the New Capitalism by Richard Sennett. Amongst other things the author points out that power in the case of major corporations has totally passed from owner-entrepreneurs to investors who have precisely no interest in their products, nor their workers, not the communities they were once part of, nor their customers except as easy marks for a quick buck. There isn't even much interest any more even in short-term ROI; instead the main gage is stock performance and the prospect of profitable resale in a <1 year.

Global corporations today are are controlled by anonymous investors, often foreign, who totally detached from managers, customers, workers, or community. And that only covers the manufacturing and service sectors.

On the finanical side, senior managers & analysts gamble with the money of small-scale investors and homes or businesses of humble creditors alike, in a ludicous zero-sum game for quick wins and absurdly large bonuses.

I've started an other promising book by George Soros, (former hedge fund manager and multi-billionaire), The New Paradigm for Finacial Markets: The Credit Crisis of 2007 and What It Means. Here Soros explains that the inherent stability and equity of the free market is a myth. A fact recently and belatedly acknowedged by Alan Greenspan, (one-time buddy of Ayn Rand). Unfortunately Greenspan's flash of insight came a bit late to do any good for most of us.

When unfettered laisser-faire capitalism works more and more against the interests of most of us, it needs to be questioned.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
03-09-2010, 12:47 PM
You Canadians are a perceptive group. I happen to agree with both of your perspectives on this, and this saddens me to no end. I hate to see what is happening here, it just makes me sick to my stomach the level of hypocrasy, denial, and overall selfishness we are seeing today. Watching finance reform, health care reform, election finance reform, and giving corporations the same rights as individuals has been a joke to watch, and I am so disguisted that I just don't want to vote anymore, I think it is a huge waste of time.

I talked to a 90 y/o woman yesterday, and she says she just wants to die rather than watching what is happening to this country. She has watch this country rise, and now she is seeing it fall, and she told me she thought she would never see this in her lifetime.

I went to see this movie when it was in theaters, and I walked out with the same feelings I had while watching sicko. I promised myself I was not going to spend my entertainment time watching subjects like this, because I just do not enjoy it, but I do learn something.

RGA
03-09-2010, 03:19 PM
I like Moore because he presents a genuinely grim situation but continues to look a the bright side of it saying it can be fixed. Of course he presents a left proganda view of the "best" sides of Europe and Canada without the pitfalls (or pays them only lip service) but that is to try and spark some movement. I liked Sicko a lot.

And it is clear that Americans were seeking a change electing Obama but I fear that even if Obama wants the change, and wants to do things better - the beuracracy and propaganda and opposition will stop any real moves. The political parties basically have a stop mentality. Whatever the Left tries to pass the right will stop - even if the right agrees with the issue - it doesn't matter because the goal is to be the party that gets elected not to do what is right for the people.

It's a great country but sometimes once you get to the top you tune out a little bit and no longer stay vigilent.

The saying "learn history or you're doomed to repeat it" is false. One learns history to better be able to control the serf population through apathy and that is the best form of control there is. Treat the masses well enough so they have enough not to risk fighting back. The movie Sicko's best point was the interview with Tony Benn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnserZOf1-4

The longer one is interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2h0o3uZ-8&feature=related

Worf101
03-10-2010, 06:06 AM
One thing history has shown is that all empires fall. The problem is they're falling quicker and faster. The 1900's was the "American Century" without a doubt. Our meteoric rise from vast backward, mostly agrarian wilderness to the worlds ONLY superpower was dazzling. However I believe it's descent will be just as rapid and twice as painfull. The only true glimmer of hope is that in the past when the country was in dire straights (Civil War, Great Depression, WWII) our "Democracy" responded and we came out the other side stronger than before.

But our Democracy is broken or at least "for sale". Businesses in the country have all of the "rights" of an individual with none of the communal or legal responsibilities. They can now freely give all the money they want to lawmakers as part of their right to "free speech" however if they knowingly cause a death due to malfeacence or greed, eh no one does a days worth of time. Corporations don't give a damn about this country. The last time they did was 911 when the thought of bomb/plane throwing jihadists attacking more pillars of commerce scared them chitless. Unless the feel physically threatened and need us to stand between them and possible annihilation, they could care less if we lived or died so long as we keep paying for whatever they're sellng.

"Pure Communism" is a failed socio-political theorem wherein they thought that the basic human desire for personal comfort and the acquisition of possessions could be undone by a selfless ideal. Unrestricted capitalism is an equally failed socio-political theorem wherein some still think that a capitalist gives one hoot about anythng but collecting more capital at the expense of everyone else. The idea that a system ruled strictly by greed would somehow do what's right for any society or nation at the expense of one pennies worth of profit has been shown to be as ludicrous as the idea of a "workers world".

Perhaps when the dust clears, a sensible "middle ground" can be found amongst the rubble and debris.

Worf

3LB
03-10-2010, 12:06 PM
The problem we have now is that people don't vote and when they do, they vote their hunches. Some of us still believe that there is a huge differences twix the Democrats and Republicans. At this point, I'd say there is scant difference twix the two. There are those telling us to sacrifice; they don't and we put them there. There are those who tell us that a shift from pure capitalism will result in "someone coming and taking 'yours' away from you and giving it to someone else". Over two decades ago, GM did just that to their Flint MI plant workers. Last year, we bailed those guys out with our money. It wasn't our choice, but our elected officials did it anyway - on both 'sides' of the isle.

We need a voter revolution. Make DC a revolving door for career minded hacks and use fear to control the ones we elect for a change. Stop voting incumbent - most people who vote incumbent do so purely on name recognition. That might sound radical, but have you ever seen how wheat is seperated from chaff?

dean_martin
03-10-2010, 01:45 PM
When was the last great "movement of the people" in this country? I believe it was during the civil rights era. All (or almost all) so-called movements since then have been fronted or sponsored by people or organizations with agendas.

The differences between the parties are found in fringe issues that do not affect the masses. What I find ironic is that Bush's idea of a stimulus (not counting "bailouts") actually put money in the hands of workers who used it to keep their lights, heat, etc. on for another month. It wasn't much, but it went directly to the working class. Obama's stimulus plans on the other hand seem like the old "trickle down economics" of the Reagan years. I'm hard pressed to find anyone who has benefited or who has been sustained long enough to fight another day.

I won't get into my political leanings because I've revealed them in the past. I'm just saying these are some of the most confusing times I've experienced in my adult life.

Troy
03-10-2010, 02:35 PM
But our Democracy is broken or at least "for sale". Businesses in the country have all of the "rights" of an individual with none of the communal or legal responsibilities. They can now freely give all the money they want to lawmakers as part of their right to "free speech" however if they knowingly cause a death due to malfeacence or greed, eh no one does a days worth of time. Corporations don't give a damn about this country.

Word.

America is a corporatocracy now and our corporate overlords have no conscience. It's only about the bottom line, not doing what's right for the public.

"Corporations don't give a damn about the country" is right, but here's the part I don't get; can't they see what their greed is destroying the very culture/society in which they live? Can't they see that they are creating a broken country where even their ivory towers and gated communities won't protect them from life sucking?

You don't pee in your own pool. And that's the part I just don't get.

Can't wait to see the movie.

Feanor
03-10-2010, 05:38 PM
Word.

America is a corporatocracy now and our corporate overlords have no conscience. It's only about the bottom line, not doing what's right for the public.

"Corporations don't give a damn about the country" is right, but here's the part I don't get; can't they see what their greed is destroying the very culture/society in which they live? Can't they see that they are creating a broken country where even their ivory towers and gated communities won't protect them from life sucking?

You don't pee in your own pool. And that's the part I just don't get.

Can't wait to see the movie.
The corporations and the very wealthy no longer care about their home country. They are globalize and after quick money where ever in the world there is an opportunity. They will go where resources and labor are cheap, taxes low, and environmental & other regulations few. They don't expect much from, not do they feel obliged to given anything to, their fellow citizens.

What is the purpose of the Replican Party in the US today? To represent the interest of working people, or for that matter, the middle class? Hell no: the Republicanism today is purely at the service of the very rich as described above. But the very rich and there lackeys are very, very good a stoking the myths, prejudices, and above all fears, of ignorant and thinking people. So many of latter don't consider their real interests in this changing world; instead they cling nostalgically to notions of individualism, free enterprise, Bible Belt Chrisitanity, and generally to an image of America that is already gone and perhaps never really was.

Hyfi
03-11-2010, 04:29 AM
The problem we have now is that people don't vote and when they do, they vote their hunches.

We need a voter revolution.

The same problem exists for both of your statements. What we need are people worth voting for that are not just puppets. I do not see that ever happening because they are all on somebodies strings.

I personally believe that the same small influential group of people control what is going on regardless of whether they are Dems or Repubs.

Don't people wonder why an aging heart attack prone geezer and a flaked out female were put up against the First Black (half white in reality) Man to run for Pres? Pretty obvious to me, it made him a shoe in.

Ahhh, where is Cancer Man when you need him?