An interesting article about the "naturalness" of homosexuality

[Worf101]

Curious article sent to me from the NY Times. I quite litterally don't know what to make of it. Talk to me folks let me know what you think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/arts/07GAY.html?pagewanted=1

Worf

[ForeverAutumn]

That's one of the things that I love about animals. They do what they do and they don't get judged for doing it.

I know a few people who could learn a thing or two from Roy and Silo.

[GMichael]

I don't know a whole lot about cause and affect, but it sure does seem to be normal. I have known many from both sides of the fence and haven't noticed that they are all that different. Everyone I know is different than I am, but I don't see any trends to speak of. I've known some guys who are rough and tough, but are just attracted to men. Others are more feminine like you would see from Hollywood. I also know some straight guys who are just as feminine. It seems to me that you just can't judge a book by it's cover. People is people.

[ForeverAutumn]

People is people.

And, apparently, Penguins is Penguins. :smilewinkgrin:

[dean_martin]

That's one of the things that I love about animals. They do what they do and they don't get judged for doing it.



Great observation, FA. My boys sometimes have trouble understanding why I'm so patient with our dogs while not so much with their tom-foolery. But that comparison says more about my own expectations than anything else. (I have no idea how or whether my little anecdote relates to the subject matter of the article.)

[ForeverAutumn]

Great observation, FA. My boys sometimes have trouble understanding why I'm so patient with our dogs while not so much with their tom-foolery. But that comparison says more about my own expectations than anything else. (I have know idea how or whether my little anecdote relates to the subject matter of the article.)

That makes perfect sense. When we got our cats last year, my husband (who doesn't have as much experience with animals as I do) would get mad at them when they were "bad". It took a while for me to get through to him that they don't know that they're being bad. They're just being cats. We're the ones who are judging them as "bad".

As humans, we have the ability to reason and communicate. Our social behavour is much more complicated than the rest of the animal kingdom. Morality is an important part of that society and it should be. If we acted on instinct alone, our world would be chaotic. But there are times when, I believe, morality is misplaced. And judging people for who they are sexually attracted to is one of those times.

Is it natural to be gay because penguins are? No. It's natural to be gay because that's just the way it is.

[GMichael]

And, apparently, Penguins is Penguins. :smilewinkgrin:

Penguins is people (in little tuxes & with webbed feet)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have always felt that homosexuality was natural to those who are homosexual, and heterosexuality was natural to those who are heterosexual. I never let my Christianity affect that belief, because I know that Christianity involves the less than perfect creatures called humanity. People are people no matter who they sleep with at night.

I personally do not understand what the big issue is with homosexuality. It seems to me the people that have the biggest issue with it probably have something to hide, or are not comfortable enough in their own skin to respect the differences of others. In my neck of the woods I see gay men and women doing the same lawn mowing, dog walking, and work going that I do every day. I have four very close friends of which two are gay, and I have just as much fun with them as I have with my straight friends. Sexuality does not come into play when we all get together, we just have a good time. We tease each other on occasion, but it is all in good fun, and they get as many digs at us as we get with them. I just never understood what the hubub is all about concerning gay men and women. I just do not get it.

[JohnMichael]

I have always felt that homosexuality was natural to those who are homosexual, and heterosexuality was natural to those who are heterosexual. I never let my Christianity affect that belief, because I know that Christianity involves the less than perfect creatures called humanity. People are people no matter who they sleep with at night.

I personally do not understand what the big issue is with homosexuality. It seems to me the people that have the biggest issue with it probably have something to hide, or are not comfortable enough in their own skin to respect the differences of others. In my neck of the woods I see gay men and women doing the same lawn mowing, dog walking, and work going that I do every day. I have four very close friends of which two are gay, and I have just as much fun with them as I have with my straight friends. Sexuality does not come into play when we all get together, we just have a good time. We tease each other on occasion, but it is all in good fun, and they get as many digs at us as we get with them. I just never understood what the hubub is all about concerning gay men and women. I just do not get it.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[nightflier]

Then there are some frogs who can change their sex (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bio99/bio99128.htm).

Worf, don't be surprised if you see someone holding up a big poster of Roy and Silo at your next Amsterdam gay pride vacation. Maybe someone will even make t-shirts, lol.

[JohnMichael]

Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it.


Thank you Worf for posting the link to the article. I wish humans could let other humans be happy the way penguins let other penguins be happy.

[poppachubby]

...the way penguins let other penguins be happy.

Gay penguins?

[dean_martin]

Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it.


Thank you Worf for posting the link to the article. I wish humans could let other humans be happy the way penguins let other penguins be happy.

Notwithstanding your poignant statement on variety, you could even put it this way, JM: I wish humans could let other humans be happy the way humans let penguins be happy.

(Of course this assumes there is no penguin abuse going on out there.)

[Auricauricle]

Kinda inneresting, when you think about it....Psychology and psychiatry, which have been in good positions to legitimize or stigmatize homosexuality, have cloaked themselves up in the garb of being honest to goodness sciences. In doing so, practitioners and researchers have striven to ensure that the objects of their study were apprehendable in terms that were empirically based, quanitifiable in nature and describable in terms that do not invoke the name of the Creator in doing so.

Somehow or another, the same-sex-preference behavior of some creatures has escaped the attention of many, who would write the whole thing off as fluctuation of a hormone or based on bad parenting. Regardless of its origins, the fact remains that some same-sexed singles and pairs are perfectly content. God alone knows how much suffering has been caused by persuading homosexuals to do otherwise, whether by surgery, psychotherapy or religion.

I don't think that this article or the literature supporting it will convert many of the hard core throng who is dead-set in their antipathy towards homosexuality. At the same time, perhaps it will open the eyes of many scientific folk, whose blinders have caused them to see human couples as bonded only by pocreative impulses--and not by something as messy as affection or love.

[Worf101]

I gave up on "organized" religion at the age of 12. Like my friend Laura Nyro wrote, "I was raised on the good book Jesus, till I read between the lines...." Most of my morals and the tenets I live by are universal truths, "live and let live", "treat others as you'd like to be treated" and more importantly "do no harm". Far as I'm concerned, love is love. Take it where you find it, give it when you can.

Worf

[JohnMichael]

I gave up on "organized" religion at the age of 12. Like my friend Laura Nyro wrote, "I was raised on the good book Jesus, till I read between the lines...." Most of my morals and the tenets I live by are universal truths, "live and let live", "treat others as you'd like to be treated" and more importantly "do no harm". Far as I'm concerned, love is love. Take it where you find it, give it when you can.

Worf



Words to live by, thank you.

[ForeverAutumn]

...love is love. Take it where you find it, give it when you can.

Worf

Probably the best statement I've read in years. Thanks.

[bobsticks]

Maybe we should send some penguins to Uganda...they could put some bones in their beaks, do a lil' bit of A Chorus Line ad invite the Pope over...it might work wonders...

[JohnMichael]

Maybe we should send some penguins to Uganda...they could put some bones in their beaks, do a lil' bit of A Chorus Line ad invite the Pope over...it might work wonders...



Uganda is not on my list of vacation spots. No matter how much I want to hear "What I Did For Love" performed by penguins.

[GMichael]

Uganda is not on my list of vacation spots. No matter how much I want to hear "What I Did For Love" performed by The Penguins.

I must have missed that single.:shocked:

[bobsticks]

I must have missed that single.:shocked:

Then you, my friend, are missing out. Some of those penguins can really throw down...

[ForeverAutumn]

Not to mention that they are great dancers!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3XoXAzvPxSE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3XoXAzvPxSE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Auricauricle]

Big shots! Think they're so special with them tuxedos! Bah! Sissies!

[nightflier]

And here I thought we were talking about this penguin:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/revolutionaction/tatice-linux-tux-10409.png

He gets along with everyone.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Maybe we should send some penguins to Uganda...they could put some bones in their beaks, do a lil' bit of A Chorus Line ad invite the Pope over...it might work wonders...

No you dent LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

[ForeverAutumn]

BAH! This thread is for the birds. :rolleyes5:

[Auricauricle]

Aye...'Tis a foul thing to be sure!

[JohnMichael]

Speaking of Uganda



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/29/uganda-death-sentence-gay-sex

Uganda considers death sentence for gay sex in bill before parliament• Minimum penalty is life in jail, under anti-homosexuality bill
• US evangelical activists pressed for restrictive measures

As a gay Ugandan, Frank Mugisha has endured insults from strangers, hate messages on his phone, police harassment and being outed in a tabloid as one of the country's "top homos". That may soon seem like the good old days.

Life imprisonment is the minimum punishment for anyone convicted of having gay sex, under an anti-homosexuality bill currently before Uganda's parliament. If the accused person is HIV positive or a serial offender, or a "person of authority" over the other partner, or if the "victim" is under 18, a conviction will result in the death penalty.

Members of the public are obliged to report any homosexual activity to police with 24 hours or risk up to three years in jail – a scenario that human rights campaigners say will result in a witchhunt. Ugandans breaking the new law abroad will be subject to extradition requests.

"The bill is haunting us," said Mugisha, 25, chairman of Sexual Minorities Uganda, a coalition of local lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex groups that will all be banned under the law. "If this passes we will have to leave the country."

Human rights groups within and outside Uganda have condemned the proposed legislation, which is designed to strengthen colonial-era laws that already criminalise gay sex. The issue threatened to overshadow the Commonwealth heads of government meeting that ended in Trinidad and Tobago today, with the UK and Canada both expressing strong concerns. Ahead of the meeting Stephen Lewis, a former UN envoy on Aids in Africa, said the law "makes a mockery of Commonwealth principles" and has "a taste of fascism" about it.

But within Uganda deeply-rooted homophobia, aided by a US-linked evangelical campaign alleging that gay men are trying to "recruit" schoolchildren, and that homosexuality is a habit that can be "cured", has ensured widespread public support for the bill.

President Yoweri Museveni appeared to add his backing earlier this month, warning youths in Kampala that he had heard that "European homosexuals are recruiting in Africa", and saying gay relationships were against God's will.

"We used to say Mr and Mrs, but now it is Mr and Mr. What is that now?" he said. In a interview with the Guardian, James Nsaba Buturo, the minister of state for ethics and integrity, said the government was determined to pass the legislation, ideally before the end of 2009, even if meant withdrawing from international treaties and conventions such as the UN's Universal Declaration on Human Rights, and foregoing donor funding.

"We are talking about anal sex. Not even animals do that," Butoro said, adding that he was personally caring for six "former homosexuals" who had been traumatised by the experience. "We believe there are limits to human rights."

Homosexuality has always been a taboo subject in Uganda, and is considered by many to be an affront both to local culture and religion, which plays a strong role in family life. This stigma and the real threat of job loss means that no public personality has ever "come out".

Even local HIV campaigns – which have been heavily influenced by the evangelical church with a bias towards abstinence over condom use – have deliberately avoided targeting gay men for both prevention and access to treatment.

"This means many gay men here think Aids is a non-issue, which is so dangerous," said Mugisha, who together with a few colleagues, has risked arrest by agitating in recent years for a change in the HIV policy.

At the same time, some influential religious leaders have warned about the dangers of accepting liberal western attitudes towards homosexuality.

Both opponents and supporters agree that the impetus for the a more hardline law came in March during a seminar in Kampala to "expose the truth behind homosexuality and the homosexual agenda".

The main speakers were three US evangelists: Scott Lively, Don Schmierer and Caleb Lee Brundidge. Lively is a noted anti-gay activist and president of Defend the Family International, a conservative Christian association, while Schmierer is an author who works with "homosexual recovery groups". Brundidge is a "sexual reorientation coach" at the International Healing Foundation.

The seminar was organised by Stephen Langa, a Ugandan electrician turned pastor who runs the Family Life Network in Kampala and has been spreading the message that gays are targeting schoolchildren for "conversion". "They give money to children to recruit schoolmates – once you have two children, the whole school is gone," he said in an interview. Asked if there had been any court case to prove this was happening, he replied: "No, that's why this law is needed."

After the conference Langa arranged for a petition signed by thousands of concerned parents to be delivered to parliament in April. Within a few months the bill had been drawn up.

[In an email to the Guardian on 30 November, Scott Lively said, "I have stated publicly that I do not support the bill as written. It is far too harsh and punitive. My purpose in addressing members of the Uganda parliament in March was to urge them to emphasise therapy, not punishment in their anti-homosexuality law." His long-standing position was, he said, that public policy should "actively discourage homosexuality but only as aggressively as necessary to prevent its public advocacy, much the way laws against marijuana are used in various states here in the US: the law is very lightly enforced, if ever, but the fact the law is on the books prevents advocates of the drug from promoting it, for example, in public schools."]

Christopher Senyonjo, a retired Anglican bishop, said the bill would push Uganda towards being a police state. "This law is being influenced by some evangelicals abroad," he said. "There's a lack of understanding about homosexuality – it's not recruitment, it's orientation."

But among religious leaders of all faiths his is a rare voice. Langa, the pastor, said the only thing lacking in the legislation was a clause for "rehabilitation" of homosexuals, whom he "loves" and wants to help. Gay rights had the potential to destroy civilisation, as the west could soon find out, he said.

"As one parent told me: 'We would rather live in grass huts with our morality than in skyscrapers among homosexuals'."

• This article was updated on 1 December 2009 to add a later comment by Scott Lively. A sub-heading - US evangelists are main activists behind measure - was amended to clarify that the evangelists were pressing for tougher laws, rather than specifically for the death penalty.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

BAH! This thread is for the birds. :rolleyes5:

Can we all just flock together?

[Worf101]

Uganda. After 100's of years of colonial rule, Idi Amin and natural disasters you'd think that poor beknighted country had suffered enough....

Apparently not.

Worf

[Auricauricle]

It's bad enough that the Uganda stew is in such a state, that meddlesome American evangelicals need to add their bit of sordidness into the pot....They should be excommunicated and denounced by their respective churches as the hypocrites and misanthropes they are. Phooey!

[ForeverAutumn]

I had no idea that was going on in Uganda. Thanks for the enlightenment John.

Such prejudice and hatred is completely incomprehensible to me. What is wrong with people?!

[JohnMichael]

Sadly in many areas hate crimes are still happening. In my town gay men have been murdered. Some kind and gentle men have been beaten and raped by haters as a punishment for being gay.

[GMichael]

Sadly in many areas hate crimes are still happening. In my town gay men have been murdered. Some kind and gentle men have been beaten and raped by haters as a punishment for being gay.

But wouldn't raping them make them gay too?

You need to move to my town. You would be welcome with open arms. (The town would like you too:ihih: )

Seriously though. When will people step out of the dark ages and join the 21st century? It's bad enough that there are so many people who carry hatred around for no reason; do we need whole governments taking things to a new level?

[ForeverAutumn]

Rape is about violence, not sex. A man raping another man doesn't make him gay, it just makes him scum.

That article was disturbing for so many reasons. But this is the statement that really stuck out for me...


In a interview with the Guardian, James Nsaba Buturo, the minister of state for ethics and integrity, said the government was determined to pass the legislation, ideally before the end of 2009, even if meant withdrawing from international treaties and conventions such as the UN's Universal Declaration on Human Rights, and foregoing donor funding.

That people feel so strongly about this that they would withdraw from Human Rights treaties and go against the UN just boggles my mind to the point that I don't even know how to express how I feel. Butaro obviously has a very different definition of ethics and integrity than I do! :nonod:

John, where you live scares me. Come live here. There is a huge community who would welcome you. We have a wicked parade every year. And if you meet Mr. Right, you can marry him. Plus I have a house that needs decorating. You met my husband...you can see that he's no help. ;)

[GMichael]

Rape is about violence, not sex. A man raping another man doesn't make him gay, it just makes him scum.

That article was disturbing for so many reasons. But this is the statement that really stuck out for me...



That people feel so strongly about this that they would withdraw from Human Rights treaties and go against the UN just boggles my mind to the point that I don't even know how to express how I feel. Butaro obviously has a very different definition of ethics and integrity than I do! :nonod:

John, where you live scares me. Come live here. There is a huge community who would welcome you. We have a wicked parade every year. And if you meet Mr. Right, you can marry him. Plus I have a house that needs decorating. You met my husband...you can see that he's no help. ;)


Hey!

I invited him first Red.

[ForeverAutumn]

Hey!

I invited him first Red.

Do you have a parade?

:15:

[GMichael]

Do you have a parade?

:15:

No need. They run our town. Most seats in the villiage council are held by non-hetteros. There are many parades, parties, and festivals all year. All you have to do is rename a few and you could say "we have a few parades each year."
It's a very artsy town. I bet you'd love it too. It's fun to walk around town and check out all the art dealers. The prices are a little crazy though. One place was charging $500 for a burnt piece of plywood. It wasn't even a whole piece! It was cut on one end. And people here complain about $35k for speaker wire.:shocked:

[ForeverAutumn]

And people here complain about $35k for speaker wire.

Those animals! I don't know if I could live in such a place!:shocked:

Seriously, it sounds great. Hey John, the next AR get-together is in Mike's little corner of the world. What say you?

[GMichael]

Those animals! I don't know if I could live in such a place!:shocked:

Seriously, it sounds great. Hey John, the next AR get-together is in Mike's little corner of the world. What say you?

I'll get the party started. Maybe I can find some kind of town schedule for all the festivals they have. I wonder which week is the festival of wood.

Wow. I found more than I was looking for. FA, check out the film on shopping in Milford. (And yes, I have met Rosie)

http://www.milfordpa.us/id3.html

[JohnMichael]

Rape is about violence, not sex. A man raping another man doesn't make him gay, it just makes him scum.

That article was disturbing for so many reasons. But this is the statement that really stuck out for me...



That people feel so strongly about this that they would withdraw from Human Rights treaties and go against the UN just boggles my mind to the point that I don't even know how to express how I feel. Butaro obviously has a very different definition of ethics and integrity than I do! :nonod:

John, where you live scares me. Come live here. There is a huge community who would welcome you. We have a wicked parade every year. And if you meet Mr. Right, you can marry him. Plus I have a house that needs decorating. You met my husband...you can see that he's no help. ;)


Can I ride in the convertible?

I wish there was a place I could move that would be free of hate and safe from assault but it happens even in San Francisco. That which does not kill you makes you stronger.

[JohnMichael]

Those animals! I don't know if I could live in such a place!:shocked:

Seriously, it sounds great. Hey John, the next AR get-together is in Mike's little corner of the world. What say you?



Sounds good to me. Well except for burnt plywood art. Ya let us go meet Mike!

[GMichael]

Sounds good to me. Well except for burnt plywood art. Ya let us go meet Mike!

The burnt plywood isn't so bad, as long as you don't buy it. This one store is just full of other people's junk that they are selling at big bucks.

Did anyone check out the link I posted? It gives a nice little tour of our town in the "Shoppong in Milford" area.

[ForeverAutumn]

I took a quick look at the link and the video. It looks like a nice place. John, I'm with Mike. You should live there. :)

[nightflier]

I didn't know about the US ties, but I guess I'm not surprised. After seeing how citizens of Utah pretty much bankrolled prop.8 here in California, it's amazing how accepting we are of outside influences on populations that would probably decide differently without that influence. Maybe it's time for someone to tell the anti-gay evangelicals here in the US to mind their own business if it doesn't apply to their own constituencies. Geez.

[JohnMichael]

I took a quick look at the link and the video. It looks like a nice place. John, I'm with Mike. You should live there. :)




Yes and I could babysit.

[GMichael]

Yes and I could babysit.

Now you're talking. Day care costs us $168 a week, but she's worth it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Can I ride in the convertible?

I wish there was a place I could move that would be free of hate and safe from assault but it happens even in San Francisco. That which does not kill you makes you stronger.

John, when it happens in San Francisco(and West Hollywood for that matter) the communities there do not take in lying down let me tell ya! The gay communities in those two cities are quite powerful and influential. Besides, we have the best parade in the country here in the Bay Area. You know this when every marching band and drum corps full of hetero's is begging to march in it. The drum corps I belong to marches in it every year, and it is really fun and interesting to me.

I think being exposed to gay men and women is the key to understanding and acceptance. As I have said, two of my closest friends are gay, and they are my boys god fathers. My boys guard these two like rabid pit bulls, and if anything is said or done to them that is negative, my boys are all over them like brown chicken meat over bones. I live in a community filled with gay men and women, and aside from the sexual preference they are no different than I am. When people understand the "they are no different from myself" concept, it really changes their collective minds.

Hey Mike, give me directions to your pad man!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Now you're talking. Day care costs us $168 a week, but she's worth it.

Man she is a cutie, ahhhhh the cute babies. I had two once, then they grew up.......

[GMichael]

When people understand the "they are no different from myself" concept, it really changes their collective minds.

That’s it in the nutshel. Once people take the time to learn a little more about “them”, then “them” turns into part of “us.” Too bad that so many people act without thinking. As Neil said in Whitch Hunt –
“Quick to judge
Quick to anger
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand...”



Hey Mike, give me directions to your pad man!

Go east young man. Go east.

[GMichael]

Man she is a cutie, ahhhhh the cute babies. I had two once, then they grew up.......

Tanx... She's the joy in our home. I look forward to seeing her each day.

[3LB]

I don't care who you love or how you love, just don't post it on the internet unless you're really attractive. Too much ugly porn on the web.

[nightflier]

Go east young man. Go east.

...the lyrics where:

Go West, Life is peaceful there
Go West, In the open air
Go West, Where the skies are blue
Go West, This is what we're gonna do

...from another well-known gay band. What would music be without their contribution to the industry? I bet even ol' Sally Kern was dancing to West End Girls in her younger years, lol.

[GMichael]

...the lyrics where:

Go West, Life is peaceful there
Go West, In the open air
Go West, Where the skies are blue
Go West, This is what we're gonna do

...from another well-known gay band. What would music be without their contribution to the industry? I bet even ol' Sally Kern was dancing to West End Girls in her younger years, lol.

But he can't get here from where he is by going west unless he wants to circle the globe. He needs to go East.

[nightflier]

But he can't get here from where he is by going west unless he wants to circle the globe. He needs to go East.

... Never underestimate the power of human persistence.

[nightflier]

John, when it happens in San Francisco(and West Hollywood for that matter) the communities there do not take in lying down let me tell ya! The gay communities in those two cities are quite powerful and influential. Besides, we have the best parade in the country here in the Bay Area. You know this when every marching band and drum corps full of hetero's is begging to march in it. The drum corps I belong to marches in it every year, and it is really fun and interesting to me.

I think being exposed to gay men and women is the key to understanding and acceptance. As I have said, two of my closest friends are gay, and they are my boys god fathers. My boys guard these two like rabid pit bulls, and if anything is said or done to them that is negative, my boys are all over them like brown chicken meat over bones. I live in a community filled with gay men and women, and aside from the sexual preference they are no different than I am. When people understand the "they are no different from myself" concept, it really changes their collective minds.

Not the "some of my best friends are gay" line. Given that your son has a gay god father, I'd expect a little more social sensitivity from you. What if we replaced the word "gay" for "black," how do you think this would sound?


John, when it happens in San Francisco(and West Hollywood for that matter) the communities there do not take in lying down let me tell ya! The black communities in those two cities are quite powerful and influential. Besides, we have the best parade in the country here in the Bay Area. You know this when every marching band and drum corps full of whites is begging to march in it. The drum corps I belong to marches in it every year, and it is really fun and interesting to me.

I think being exposed to black men and women is the key to understanding and acceptance. As I have said, two of my closest friends are black, and they are my boys god fathers. My boys guard these two like rabid pit bulls, and if anything is said or done to them that is negative, my boys are all over them like brown chicken meat over bones. I live in a community filled with black men and women, and aside from the skin color they are no different than I am. When people understand the "they are no different from myself" concept, it really changes their collective minds.

I really wonder if SVI or any other gay member of this forum would say they consider this "fun and interesting."

Oh, that's right, I forgot, you work for Disney...

[ForeverAutumn]

Not the "some of my best friends are gay" line. Given that your son has a gay god father, I'd expect a little more social sensitivity from you. What if we replaced the word "gay" for "black," how do you think this would sound?

I really wonder if SVI or any other gay member of this forum would say they consider this "fun and interesting."

Gimme a break! :rolleyes: I've been to the Pride Parade here and it is both fun and interesting.


I think being exposed to gay men and women is the key to understanding and acceptance. As I have said, two of my closest friends are gay, and they are my boys god fathers. My boys guard these two like rabid pit bulls, and if anything is said or done to them that is negative, my boys are all over them like brown chicken meat over bones. I live in a community filled with gay men and women, and aside from the sexual preference they are no different than I am. When people understand the "they are no different from myself" concept, it really changes their collective minds.


I think being exposed to black men and women is the key to understanding and acceptance. As I have said, two of my closest friends are black, and they are my boys god fathers. My boys guard these two like rabid pit bulls, and if anything is said or done to them that is negative, my boys are all over them like brown chicken meat over bones. I live in a community filled with black men and women, and aside from the skin color they are no different than I am. When people understand the "they are no different from myself" concept, it really changes their collective minds.

Both sound just fine to me. Acceptance is acceptance. Substitute Jew, Chinese, Muslim, Blond or Martian and it still sounds good.

Stop trying to pick a fight where there isn't a fight to be picked.

[JohnMichael]

I have no complaints with anything Sir T has written. I would like one day to meet him at an AR get together. Nightfliar thank you for thinking of SVI first as a gay member. I wonder what that is telling us.

[GMichael]

Is SVI back? It's getting to be that time again. Soon we'll be asked to pick between 3 crappy speakers only to end up ingored in the end. What good times. Hope he found someone to really care about him. I didn't like that guy Adam.

Sir T, you can come by anytime. You too Flyboy. Just leave the fighting outside.

[nightflier]

I had debated for several days whether I should comment on his post. I also asked a co-worker who is openly gay to read it because I wanted to have that perspective. He said that while it certainly has the requisite underlying bigotry of the "some of my best friends are _____," ironically, he also advised against me saying anything since he didn't think it would would do any good and because someone could turn right around and suggest I was implying the same thing by having a his input. Well I don't have any gay friends, he's a co-worker, we work together and he has openly stated that he's gay. Big whoop.

But then I thought about who it was that wrote the original post. Lil't works for a media conglomerate who's bigotry is well documented and he has certainly done his best to defend it. More importantly, he vehemently claims that he cannot be bigoted because he himself is Latino and, as we now know, his sons' godparents are gay. Well I beg to differ. Just as I've known several Latinos who are both openly racist and anti-gay, I don't accept the proximity argument any more than that I accept that playing in a gay pride band, or even having a gay god-parent automatically makes someone a pink-triangle-wearing supporter. Maybe it's only for show?

While on the surface the post seems innocuous enough, the fact is it still harbors the same underlying bigotry that serves to keep one group down, in this case gays. To begin with, it presumes that a personal relationship with a gay person somehow makes him an authority on gays - it doesn't. Second it presumes that having a gay person as a friend obviates any latent prejudices - again, it doesn't. Third is establishes a separateness that is beyond the relationship; it's almost as if saying: "he's my friend, and on top of that, he's gay" - the qualifier is stressed beyond the parameters set forth in the discussion. I think that in the end it's a poor attempt at self-vindication and acceptance.

Delving a little deeper into the malady, I find it peculiar that he should emphasize that this gay person is a god-parent to his son. What is implied by that? Is it that "they" are safe enough to have around children? That "they" are good enough to be honorary members of the family? "They" are acceptable in our religious institutions? The post raises too many questions about intent. If instead of saying the person is a god-parent to his son, he had just described a little better what his personal relationship is with this person, it perhaps would not have come off so forced and stressed.

It all sounded way to familiar to the infamous Seinfeld episode where George tries so hard to prove he's not a racist by paying his exterminator who is black to be seen with him in public. It fails horribly because George can never get beyond the blackness to actually get to know the person. Maybe lil't has gotten beyond the gay-ness of his son's god-father, but his post implied nothing of the sort. In a forum about sensitivity to gay people, the infamous "some of my best friends are gay" just raises more questions.

************

JohnMichael, SVI was the only member I could think of who was openly gay, so that's why I mentioned him. While I'd like to say I don't think of him as gay first, I'm also not certain he would want us to, although that may not necessarily be accurate. Perhaps SVI was a member who was more openly sexual and that his homosexuality was just a part of that. If so, then maybe you are correct in pointing out that I should not think of him as gay first. Then again, aside from his audio system, we really don't know much about him. I hope he is well.

[GMichael]

I'm just gonna say.....

[JohnMichael]

************

JohnMichael, SVI was the only member I could think of who was openly gay, so that's why I mentioned him. While I'd like to say I don't think of him as gay first, I'm also not certain he would want us to, although that may not necessarily be accurate. Perhaps SVI was a member who was more openly sexual and that his homosexuality was just a part of that. If so, then maybe you are correct in pointing out that I should not think of him as gay first. Then again, aside from his audio system, we really don't know much about him. I hope he is well.





Gee and I thought I had been openly gay enough. As an openly gay member again I have no trouble with what Sir T wrote. I agree completely with ForeverAutumn who wrote

Stop trying to pick a fight where there isn't a fight to be picked.

I was also curious as to when your co-worker became spokesperson for all gays? We are all different with different outlooks and different life experiences. Thinking one could answer for all now that is interesting.

[nightflier]

JohnMichael, I didn't know you were gay. In any case, it doesn't take being gay to see that the post was worded with disturbing references - perhaps I should have explained them in my first objection. If I might add, just because you (gay or not) didn't find the post disturbing, doesn't mean that it wasn't. As you so poignantly pointed out, no single gay person can profess to represent the views of all gays.

That said, I did find the "some of my best friends are gay" reference and the other comments to be at the very least questionable. Even his previous post focusing on the sexuality and sexual choices of gay people sounded overly obsessive about this one aspect of one's humanity. Why the emphasis? To me it sounds like there are some latent issues in those words, ones that expose a very definite separation between himself and "them." That this is coming from someone who professes up & down that he is not biased at all only adds to the issue.

Take it for whatever you like. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. To me the comments were questionable and I felt I needed to say so. I also think that had we been talking about any other underrepresented and traditionally oppressed group, whether blacks, the disabled, Latinos, Jews, small people, or whatever, the wording of the post would have been better recognized as disturbing and we would not now be debating it.

[JohnMichael]

JohnMichael, I didn't know you were gay. In any case, it doesn't take being gay to see that the post was worded with disturbing references - perhaps I should have explained them in my first objection. If I might add, just because you (gay or not) didn't find the post disturbing, doesn't mean that it wasn't. As you so poignantly pointed out, no single gay person can profess to represent the views of all gays.

That said, I did find the "some of my best friends are gay" reference and the other comments to be at the very least questionable. Even his previous post focusing on the sexuality and sexual choices of gay people sounded overly obsessive about this one aspect of one's humanity. Why the emphasis? To me it sounds like there are some latent issues in those words, ones that expose a very definite separation between himself and "them." That this is coming from someone who professes up & down that he is not biased at all only adds to the issue.

Take it for whatever you like. I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. To me the comments were questionable and I felt I needed to say so. I also think that had we been talking about any other underrepresented and traditionally oppressed group, whether blacks, the disabled, Latinos, Jews, small people, or whatever, the wording of the post would have been better recognized as disturbing and we would not now be debating it.




Wow do you champion the cause of all minorities? Thanks for taking offense in my stead. If anyone insults straight people I will rush to your aid.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I now believe one of our members has lost all of his brain cells, borrowed some more, and lost those to. :rolleyes: