Replacement for NAD PP-2 phono pre

[clapton1980]

Hi everyone -

I have a Rega P2 turntable and NAD PP-2 phono preamp. I recently upgraded to a Benz MC Silver cartridge.

However, the MC input on the NAD appears to be busted. So I'm using the MM input instead, which sounds fine, but I'm not confident that I'm getting the most out of my cartridge.

I know you don't absolutely need a MC phono stage with a high output MC cartridge, but what should I do? Keep the disabled NAD PP-2 and continue to run through MM? Replace it with the PP-3? Upgrade to a better pre? ($300-400 budget tops).

Rest of the setup: NAD 320BEE amp + B&W 685's.

Thanks guys. Curious to hear feedback.

Best,
Clapton

[poppachubby]

You absolutely can't continue with the NAD in MM mode. No good. There is a member here and quite a few at Audio Asylum that rave about the Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 SE. It retails for around $400, so it fits your budget. It would be a HUGE step away from the NAD and into high fidelity analog.

Of course, as mentioned you could just run your HOMC into an amp. This however won't do your beautiful cart any real justice.

[JohnMichael]

The Benz MC Silver is a high output moving coil cartridge that would work best in the moving magnet input. The output from the Silver is most likely driving the moving coil input into distortion which gives the impression it is not working correctly. Poppachubby made a good suggestion that the Gram Amp 2SE which is a moving magnet only phono preamp would be a good choice. Also for an inexpensive moving magnet phono preamp check out the Cambridge 540P or the 640P if you think one day you will need low output moving coil abilities.

[poppachubby]

The Benz MC Silver is a high output moving coil cartridge that would work best in the moving magnet input. The output from the Silver is most likely driving the moving coil input into distortion which gives the impression it is not working correctly. Poppachubby made a good suggestion that the Gram Amp 2SE which is a moving magnet only phono preamp would be a good choice. Also for an inexpensive moving magnet phono preamp check out the Cambridge 540P or the 640P if you think one day you will need low output moving coil abilities.


The 540/640P isn't a lateral move? There is no adjustable output on either, is there?

[02audionoob]

I'm going to suggest the Clearaudio Nano so you can choose your own loading and gain, rather than being stuck with only one MM impedance option (47k) and one MM gain option (usually around 39 or 40 dB) that might not be enough.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Nano-Phono-Preamp?sc=2&category=401

[JohnMichael]

In case the NAD is not working correctly I suggested the Cambridge Audio 540P and 640P. They are both well made and positively reviewed products for not much money. They both are good moving magnet preamps. My complaint with the 640P amd the Benz Gold was the lack of dynamics. Since you are using the high output MC Silver the moving magnet settings will work.

[02audionoob]

Since the 640P provides 39 dB gain on the MM inputs and the MC Silver puts out 2 mV, it seems like it would be a bit below optimum volume level. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd probably like to have more like 45 dB gain if I could get it. Also, with my own HOMC cartridge, 47k sounds bright to me, so I adjust it down to 1k...personal preference. Of course, some people go the other way...raising their impedance setting to 47k with a LOMC cartridge.

[JohnMichael]

Since the 640P provides 39 dB gain on the MM inputs and the MC Silver puts out 2 mV, it seems like it would be a bit below optimum volume level. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd probably like to have more like 45 dB gain if I could get it. Also, with my own HOMC cartridge, 47k sounds bright to me, so I adjust it down to 1k...personal preference. Of course, some people go the other way...raising their impedance setting to 47k with a LOMC cartridge.



Sadly there are not many if any phono preamps that are adjustable for loading and gain in the OP's price range. Your previous uggestion of the Nano is about the only one I know of but have never heard it.

[02audionoob]

That's why I proposed the Nano, but I too have not heard it.

[JohnMichael]

Since the 640P provides 39 dB gain on the MM inputs and the MC Silver puts out 2 mV, it seems like it would be a bit below optimum volume level. If I were in the OP's situation, I'd probably like to have more like 45 dB gain if I could get it. Also, with my own HOMC cartridge, 47k sounds bright to me, so I adjust it down to 1k...personal preference. Of course, some people go the other way...raising their impedance setting to 47k with a LOMC cartridge.




A little off topic but if your cartridge is sounding bright could it be the VTA? I have read that with long profile stylus if the VTA is off the cartridge can sound bright or dull depending on how it is set.

[poppachubby]

Wow, that Clearaudio is a nice piece. Nice rec noob. I will second that, hadn't seen it before today.

[JohnMichael]

Technische Daten - Technical data:
Verstärkung bei 1 kHz: max. 69 dB (MC-Betrieb/Mode)
Amplification: max. 49 dB (MM-Betrieb/Mode)
Verstärkung / Gain control von / from 34 to 67 dB
Eingangsimpedanz:
Input load: 47 kΩ / 220pF / MM / MC
MM / MC – Eingang: schaltbar mit Steckbrücke (auf Unterseite)
MM / MC - input: switchable (at bottom)
Schneidekennlinien-Entzerrung: Nach RIAA (Zeitkonst.:
RIAA: 75μs / 318μs / 3180μs)
RIAA Genauigkeit: ± 0,4 dB
RIAA accuracy:
Klirrfaktor: 0,04% (IEC A)
THD:
Signal/Rauschabstand: 67 dB (A) (MC-Betrieb/Mode)
S/N: 84 dB (A) (MM-Betrieb/Mode)
Übersprechdämpfung: > 80 dB bei 1 kHz,
Channel separation: gegenüberliegender Kanal
kurzgeschlossen
Maximale Ausgangsspannung: 10 V eff (1 kHz)
Max. output voltage:
Spannungsversorgung: 16 V AC (< 500 mA)
Power supply: (externes Steckernetzteil,
Kunststoffgehäuse)
(external power supply)
Ausgänge: asymmetrisch (CINCH)
Outputs: asymmetrical (RCA)
Gewicht: ca. 600 g (Vorverstärker und Netzteil)
Weight: (Preamp and power supply)
Abmessungen ( b x t x h ): 80 mm x 106 mm x 25 mm
Dimensions ( w x l x h ):
(Technische Änderungen vorbehalten -
Technical changes are subject without notification)


After checking the specs on the ClearAudio site the preamp does not seem as flexible as the needledoctor write up would have you think.

[02audionoob]

Regarding the Nano, I think it's a continuous gain dial on top and load jumpers on the bottom. This review seems to explain...

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/clearaudio4/nano.html

With my own setup, I've got the VTA exactly horizontal, but my ears are very sensitive to fatigue. I therefore like a little less of the highs than most people. Going from 47k to 1k with an MM cartridge is too severe, but with HOMC it works nicely.

[poppachubby]

You actually have to add resistors to the board to convert to MC. Not convenient, but does give alot of credit to their client base. I think it's a great idea, but wouldn't be great if you're the type to jump from cart to cart. I know right now I have a couple of headshells loaded up and I have been enjoying switching. They're all MM, but I think you get my meaning.

[02audionoob]

The resistors are a bit of a drawback, but really the best feature of the Nano is the continuously variable gain. A cartridge output of 2 mV seems like a tough fit, gain-wise. The Nano looks like it could solve that.

For my own purposes, I like being able to use the load as my treble control, since my integrated amp has no tone controls. That's not something most people would necessarily need.

[JohnMichael]

With my own setup, I've got the VTA exactly horizontal, but my ears are very sensitive to fatigue. I therefore like a little less of the highs than most people. Going from 47k to 1k with an MM cartridge is too severe, but with HOMC it works nicely.



Here is some good advice on setting VTA from PS Audio.
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/how-to/how-to-adjust-the-vta-of-a-turntable/

[02audionoob]

Here is some good advice on setting VTA from PS Audio.
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/how-to/how-to-adjust-the-vta-of-a-turntable/

Thanks for posting that. It's challenging to get VTA optimized when you consider the 180g re-issues. But since I have it the way I like it with the load at 1k, I can combat the dark tone of the 180g records by adjusting the load to 47k for only those records.

My PS Audio GCPH also has a continuously variable gain dial, like the Nano, but it sells for beyond the OP's budget, even used.

[jrhymeammo]

I'm not sure what your preference is but I wouldn't run the Silver thru MC input. The cartridge is designed to be plugged into a normal MM 47k ohm inputs. I don't know the exact spec of the PP2, but it's probably has input impedance of 100ohm. Having additional 20 or so dB gain via MC input may seem like a good idea, but playing a 47k cart into 100ohm will muff the sound quality, especially in high frequency sound.

Your NAD receiver should have around 50 watts of power and it should offer plenty of power for your B&W. 685, which are more than suffiently efficient. So the MM gain stage in the PP2 is enough for the Benz cartridge.

How big is your room, and how loud do you listen to music?
If you have a large room and prefer to rock-out, then 40+ dB gain from MM stage maybe what you are looking for.

You have already spent good money on a great cartridge, don't skimp out on a Phono preamp. If you can spend more money, then I would go for a used Audio Research PH3. I think it offers 54dB gain in 47k inputs. Resistors can be soldered on for different impedance for mid-LOMC cartridges.
But of course these are plenty of other great options out there around your budget.
http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?preaphon&1&ctg&st1

[jrhymeammo]

You actually have to add resistors to the board to convert to MC. Not convenient, but does give alot of credit to their client base. I think it's a great idea, but wouldn't be great if you're the type to jump from cart to cart. I know right now I have a couple of headshells loaded up and I have been enjoying switching. They're all MM, but I think you get my meaning.

That will alter the input impedance, but I'm pretty sure series of resistors won't offer additional gain which LOMC desparetly needs. Did I miss something?

[poppachubby]

That will alter the input impedance, but I'm pretty sure series of resistors won't offer additional gain which LOMC desparetly needs. Did I miss something?

It has continuous gain control via a knob. I think you missed 02audionoob's link to the 6moons review.

[02audionoob]

That will alter the input impedance, but I'm pretty sure series of resistors won't offer additional gain which LOMC desparetly needs. Did I miss something?

The continously variable gain adjustment from 34 to 67 dB would provide the optimum gain for probably any cartridge available, including the OP's Benz MC Silver.

[clapton1980]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

The Graham Slee and Clearaudio options both sound great, but definitely on the upper-end of my budget. Other folks have also recommended the Rega Fono and Bellari VP130 (though would the Bellari be a fit w/ my MC Benz?)

More info on my listening setup: small NYC apartment, hence the bookshelf speakers. Won't be driving these crazy-loud, except on occasion.

[02audionoob]

The Bellari's gain is too low for the MC Silver. There would be no doubt in my mind on that one.

[clapton1980]

...also, I'm not opposed to buying used, at all. In fact I've bought most everything in my setup on Audiogon and trust it.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

The Graham Slee and Clearaudio options both sound great, but definitely on the upper-end of my budget. Other folks have also recommended the Rega Fono and Bellari VP130 (though would the Bellari be a fit w/ my MC Benz?)

More info on my listening setup: small NYC apartment, hence the bookshelf speakers. Won't be driving these crazy-loud, except on occasion.

I think Rega, Cambridge, or Bellari will be a lateral move.

I would try out somem like this. If you don't like it, you can always sell on Agon without much loss.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1272385035&/Graham-Slee-Gram-Amp-2-SE

Lehmann Black Cube shows up once in a while, and it's been proven by audiophiles over the years.

[clapton1980]

..and the Graham Slee would be a good pairing despite the fact it's a MM pre? Been reading plenty of reviews and I'm 100% sold on it --just want to make sure it's a good match for my Benz MC Silver.

[jrhymeammo]

..and the Graham Slee would be a good pairing despite the fact it's a MM pre? Been reading plenty of reviews and I'm 100% sold on it --just want to make sure it's a good match for my Benz MC Silver.

If you have a High Output Moving Coil cartridge say higher than 1.6mV with 47k impedance, just treat it as it was a regular MM cartridge. Medium Output Moving Coil cartridges such as Benz Micro M2 will needed to be treated differently. I think they are usuall around 1000 ohm with 0.8mV output.

[jrhymeammo]

I imagine the Graham Slee will be a significant upgrade for you.
It offers sufficient amount of gain for your cartridge.

Graham Slee Spec:

Input range: 2mV - 10mV rms
Output range (for above inputs): 224mV to 1120mV rms
Gain: 41dB (Av 112) ref 1kHz
Input impedance resistive: 47k Ohms
Input impedance capacitive: 100pF

Benz Micro Spec:
Elliptical stylus
2.0mV output
Tracking grams: 2 grams
Loading: 47k ohms
Weight: 5.7 grams
Frequency response: 20hz-25khz


This will work just fine.

[jrhymeammo]

Of course you will want to do your own research, and consider other options if needed.

[Luvin Da Blues]

clapton 1980...any reference to his "Just One Night" album? Juz wunderin'.

[02audionoob]

I think Rega, Cambridge, or Bellari will be a lateral move.

I would try out somem like this. If you don't like it, you can always sell on Agon without much loss.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1272385035&/Graham-Slee-Gram-Amp-2-SE

Lehmann Black Cube shows up once in a while, and it's been proven by audiophiles over the years.

Agreed. If you want to buy used, your budget could probably get you a Phonomena or a Tube Box.

[JohnMichael]

I have been very happy with my Gram Amp 3. It works well with the Benz MC Gold and better than the Rotel RQ 970BX or the Cambridge Audio 640P. The Graham Slee products do take a while to burn-in. Once the unit was sounding it's best I was impressed with the instrumental textures and how musical it sounds. If I ever go back to my Ortofon OM20 or Grado then I will use the Cambridge Audio 640P. I can not imagine that happening since I am so pleased with the Benz/Fanfare combination.

[clapton1980]

Thanks again to everyone for the great feedback. I think the Graham Slee will be my first choice new (or if I can snag one used on Augiogon).

That said there's a first-gen Phonomena available now in my price range, worth investigating? I've seen great reviews, but mostly for the Phonomena II. Are there key differences?

[clapton1980]

I've read that as well but there appears to be a power input port on the this unit?

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1270660298&/Phonomena-Phonomena-phono-stag

[02audionoob]

I misunderstood your question so I deleted my reply. The original Phonomena seems worth pursuing at or near the asking price. Musical Surroundings made an external battery power supply for it, in addition to the standard wall-mount transformer. The current Phonomena II is the replacement for the original Phonomena and the Nova Phonomena is the battery-powered upgrade model as compared to the II.

The power input on the model you linked would accept a power plug from the wall-mount transforner or the external battery power supply.

[jrhymeammo]

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl?preaphon&1&ctg&st1

Yeah, you gotta be quick on great deals at Audiogon.
Check out the link frequently.

I think another option is Dynavector P-75 mk2. I can't believe that $800 phono stage is considered as Entry level phono, but there are too many great reviews on this phonostage. I know a guy who tried them with $4000 TT setup and was quite impressed. I might be wrong, but I think Hifitommy owns one or know someone who does, and was very impressed with the unit.

Just somem to consider. Doesn't Nightflier own the Phonomena? Maybe he can chime in.

[jrhymeammo]

Agreed. If you want to buy used, your budget could probably get you a Phonomena or a Tube Box.

My impression of the Tube Box was that it is very involving sounding phono pre.
Perhaps it made bad music more enjoyable than how the music was intended. With that, I never thought it was accurate, neutral, or resolving sounding gear. But it just made me want to listen to more and more. You can stay up all night listening to LP without getting tired...which can be very good or very bad.

[poppachubby]

I would suggest the Slee over the Phonomena. You can make your own battery stage, VERY simply. My "buddy" Abe Collins gave me his recipe and I have my Music Hall MMF Phono Pack rockin to it. It will lower the noise floor and allow you to hear EVERYTHING your amp is delivering. He uses his on a Slee. Here are the batteries, essentially taking direct current and making it alternate. I added an inline fuse just in case. Get yourself a Slee and I can help you put a battery stage together.

http://mycollins.net/battery.jpg

[nightflier]

Well the first generation Phonomena can be had second-hand for $300-400, and it's no slouch. It's still my reference and certainly beat the pants off my previous NAD PP2 as well as a few others I tried like the Cambridge 640p and the Pro-ject Phono Box. I've talked to a few people who have the new version and for all practical purposes the only real difference is that the jumpers are now accessible from the outside. This "shortcoming" of my Phonomena was a bit of an issue for me as I like to tinker, but I just kept the cover off the unit while I was setting things up and then once I got it just how liked it, I replaced the cover (FYI: it uses metric hex-screws and should come with it's own Allen wrench that matches them).

As far as bang-for-the-buck, I can't think of any phono preamp that punches as far above it's weight-class. The Bellaris are nice, especially since you can swap tubes and fine-tune them, but the Phonomenas are a class above that, IMO. Another small issue for miser-types like me is that it doesn't have an on/off switch, but I've also found that leaving it on makes for a much better sounding phono pre because it does change after a good warm-up. It has no tubes, so I don't think there's a wear issue with that.

The other phono-pre I would consider is the Jolida, which I've been reading is also quite impressive, especially with better tubes. It can be had for very little online, I think there was one on Audiogon that sold for just $300. Used ones do go fast online, but that should be a good sign as well. That said, I'm still skeptical of it because I have a love-hate relationship with tubes. They sound better, but they typically cost a whole lot more in comparison to well-engineered solid state like the Phonomenas and Clearaudios.

This is strictly my opinion, but I can say that some of the lower priced ones I've heard (Pro-ject, Bellari, and some Chinese brands I can't remember) have either introduced excessive noise or have been very difficult to set up without doing so. The price-point for better tube-based phono preamps, IMO, is around $2-3K (Audion, used Herrons, BATs, and if you're lucky to find one, Aesthetix...) and that is more than I'm ready to spend right now and my gear doesn't measure up anyhow.

[02audionoob]

I've owned the original Pro-Ject Tube Box and the Bellari VP129. In my experience, much of the noise heard with those are the OEM tubes. With both of those phono preamps, I replaced the tubes with Sovtek 12AX7LPS and heard less noise. They were at least as quiet as the phono stage of my Adcom GFP-565.

[atomicAdam]

Thanks for posting that. It's challenging to get VTA optimized when you consider the 180g re-issues. But since I have it the way I like it with the load at 1k, I can combat the dark tone of the 180g records by adjusting the load to 47k for only those records.

My PS Audio GCPH also has a continuously variable gain dial, like the Nano, but it sells for beyond the OP's budget, even used.

You get a dark tone with 180g re-issues? That is interesting. I've not experienced that.

[02audionoob]

You get a dark tone with 180g re-issues? That is interesting. I've not experienced that.

It's ordinarily very slight. Nothing really to worry about...and almost something I wouldn't notice. But if I do notice it, I just turn the impedance selector one notch and it's all good.

[atomicAdam]

It's ordinarily very slight. Nothing really to worry about...and almost something I wouldn't notice. But if I do notice it, I just turn the impedance selector one notch and it's all good.

For me it is a more full bodied sound with the thicker vinyl, but not always. Anyways, just interesting to read that.

[02audionoob]

For me it is a more full bodied sound with the thicker vinyl, but not always. Anyways, just interesting to read that.

I agree there's something added to the quality in most 180g records. In the context of this thread I'm only referring to the condition in the info JM posted in reply #16...where a thicker record can affect the angle of your tonearm...especially with a relatively short one like mine and less so with something like the 12-inch SME arms. When the stylus contact point is high enough to slightly angle the tonearm upward, you can lose a little in the highs.