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WJK59
02-15-2010, 10:12 AM
First time post -
I appreciate all the insights I've read on equipment on this site. Here's my dilemna -
I've recently caught the bug to upgrade my 30-year old + audio system. Right now I'm just running 2-channel stereo with an old Nikko Alpha & Beta 2 amp and preamp, along with a pair of Rogers Studio 1a speakers and a separate relatively cheap Cambridge Audio speaker system. At this point, I don't even have a large-screen TV or Blu-Ray player, nor do I have a room that lends itself to surround sound (due to it's weird shape...130+year old historic house...what can I tell you?). My old Nikko preamp pre-dates CD, DVD, Blue-Ray, etc...so I'm at a major loss for connectivity.

Knowing that I can't really afford to buy the system I want any time soon (1 kid already in college and 1 starting next year), I've been trolling eBay in search of a decent, but probably outdated AV receiver (or integrated amp) in the $300 to $500 range. I've primarily been looking at the Denon AVR series (also looked at Rotel, Arcam, Elite..). Since I know that anything more than 5 years old will be pretty outdated in terms of processing (but knowing that I don't really need much processing at the moment), I'm looking at 7-channel systems - ideally something in the 4800, 5700 or 5800 series (although I could look at 5-channel and still use the Nikko amp). I won't ever need more than the 7 channels, and most likely wouldn't need more that 5, unless I want to get something that allows me to separately bi-wire the Rogers speakers with separate amp sections.

I'm figuring that by the time I upgrade the rest of my components (TV and Blu-Ray, etc), the pre-amp / processing section would be starting to show its age, anyway. So my long term plan might be to use the amp section in the AV receiver, and pick up a new pre-amp / processor with the newest technology at some point in the potentially distant future.

Does this plan make any sense, and if not, what's a better approach for an incremental upgrade?

Mr Peabody
02-15-2010, 06:26 PM
Welcome to AR. I think I posted an answer when you replied on another thread. Manufacturers can cram only so much in one box and meet a price point. Typically, stand alone power amps have superior power supply and performance than you will get from a receiver, even a higher end one. Here's a company that sells direct to the consumer and offers a good value, www.emotiva.com I haven't looked at their A/V processor but they have one selling for $699.00. Not familiar with Nikko so hate to say how a receiver or other brand would compare.

If not going to do 5.1 or more, you could just run the video of a DVD player to your TV and the L/R into an AUX input on the Nikko preamp. Just use your system for movies as well as music.

poppachubby
02-15-2010, 07:47 PM
I think if you watch your local Craig's list, you can get great deals.

pixelthis
02-16-2010, 01:41 PM
First time post -
I appreciate all the insights I've read on equipment on this site. Here's my dilemna -
I've recently caught the bug to upgrade my 30-year old + audio system. Right now I'm just running 2-channel stereo with an old Nikko Alpha & Beta 2 amp and preamp, along with a pair of Rogers Studio 1a speakers and a separate relatively cheap Cambridge Audio speaker system. At this point, I don't even have a large-screen TV or Blu-Ray player, nor do I have a room that lends itself to surround sound (due to it's weird shape...130+year old historic house...what can I tell you?). My old Nikko preamp pre-dates CD, DVD, Blue-Ray, etc...so I'm at a major loss for connectivity.

Knowing that I can't really afford to buy the system I want any time soon (1 kid already in college and 1 starting next year), I've been trolling eBay in search of a decent, but probably outdated AV receiver (or integrated amp) in the $300 to $500 range. I've primarily been looking at the Denon AVR series (also looked at Rotel, Arcam, Elite..). Since I know that anything more than 5 years old will be pretty outdated in terms of processing (but knowing that I don't really need much processing at the moment), I'm looking at 7-channel systems - ideally something in the 4800, 5700 or 5800 series (although I could look at 5-channel and still use the Nikko amp). I won't ever need more than the 7 channels, and most likely wouldn't need more that 5, unless I want to get something that allows me to separately bi-wire the Rogers speakers with separate amp sections.

I'm figuring that by the time I upgrade the rest of my components (TV and Blu-Ray, etc), the pre-amp / processing section would be starting to show its age, anyway. So my long term plan might be to use the amp section in the AV receiver, and pick up a new pre-amp / processor with the newest technology at some point in the potentially distant future.

Does this plan make any sense, and if not, what's a better approach for an incremental upgrade?


Its called an UPGRADE PATH.
Everybody needs one.
Why? Because if you buy new gear a piece at a time you can get better stuff, and gradually improve your system over time.
You want a home theater?
Well, buying used might not be the best way.
An inexpensive (300 to 500) receiver will be more up to date, and then you can concentrate on speakers.
When ready you can add an outboard amp, etc.
Just sit down and decide what you can live with, what needs replacing.
I would, however, get quality speakers.
They are the core of a decent system, and last a long time.
So you need to get those right the first time.
You can get fronts, a center, and use your current ones for rears until you can afford
to replace those.
Just figure out what your path will be, so you dont have to spend a lot at once.
Patience is a virtue in the audio world:1:

WJK59
02-16-2010, 03:58 PM
Thanks for the feedback, guys -

Mr Peabody - I've previously tried running the audio outs from the dvd to the Nikko pre-amp, but I seem to get very low output signal; not really very satisfactory sound. As for the amp section in the receiver, I recognize that even a very good receiver's amp section isn't going to hold up to the quality of separates - but I think the avr 5800's or similar might be more than adequate to tide me over for quite a while. It's really a question of whether I go for adequate power now, or add it later.

pixelthis - I'm really quite content with the Rogers speakers, although I'd clearly need to flesh out the system to go to surround. And as I mentioned, my current room doesn't really lend itself well to surround, so what I'm really looking for at the moment is improved connectivity and enough power / channels to facilitate some later upgrades. Unfortunately, with 8 more consecutive years of college tuition payments ahead, it's going to be a VERY long-term upgrade path. My sense is that I likely won't take immediate advantage of a more current, but less expensive receiver right now - and when I CAN, I'll immediately feel the need to replace it in its entirety, as opposed to being able to continue to use the amp section, either permanently, or as an interim move until if/when I can replace it.

On the other hand, I can simply stick with the AVR 3803 I got on eBay for $200 and hope the itch to improve my current upgrade passes (which isn't likely based on past history...)

Mr Peabody
02-16-2010, 08:26 PM
The 38nn series of Denon are said to be very good. You might try coming out of the front preamp outputs into the Nikko power amp to see if any improvement over the Denon internal. Also, see how the 3803 preamp section compares to the Nikko pre. Have fun.

A DVD player should have the same output as a CD or most any source, 2 to 4 volts. If you get low sound there is a problem.

Are you planning to add a center speaker or any surrounds? Maybe not the best way to go but if your room is extremely difficult placement of speakers consider in-wall or ceiling rear speakers. The Rogers will be hard to match a center to but you wouldn't be the first to have mismatched front speakers, nor the last.

WJK59
02-17-2010, 04:35 AM
Are you planning to add a center speaker or any surrounds? Maybe not the best way to go but if your room is extremely difficult placement of speakers consider in-wall or ceiling rear speakers. The Rogers will be hard to match a center to but you wouldn't be the first to have mismatched front speakers, nor the last.

I think that I'd likely eventually look to add a center. Surround becomes an issue, because the size and shape of the room requires the seating to be placed tight against the side (sofa) and rear ((chair) walls - clearly not optimal placement for any sort of surround effect. Eventually (long term) I might look to move and rebuild a barn on my property into a great room attached to the house, which would give me plenty of room for setting up a decent home theater system. Until then, good 2 channel performance and connectivity may be all I can hope for.
I've wired in-wall speakers in a couple of other rooms. Lot's of "fun" with old plaster and lath construction!, and unfortunately, there's actually very little room to do so due to a myriad of doors and windows.

blackraven
02-17-2010, 10:45 AM
Too bad you bought the Denon, you could have had an Onkyo TX SR607 with all the bells and whistles for a little bit more.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&N=0&Q=&Ntt=onkyo%20607&A=endecaSearch

http://www.gosale.com/4968817/onkyo-tx-sr607-72-channel?gclid=CK3ModiD-p8CFQwNDQod0CPBag

With that being said, that Denon you bought is an excellent AVR and will do well in 2ch audio as well. You could have done a lot worse.

pixelthis
02-17-2010, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the feedback, guys -

Mr Peabody - I've previously tried running the audio outs from the dvd to the Nikko pre-amp, but I seem to get very low output signal; not really very satisfactory sound. As for the amp section in the receiver, I recognize that even a very good receiver's amp section isn't going to hold up to the quality of separates - but I think the avr 5800's or similar might be more than adequate to tide me over for quite a while. It's really a question of whether I go for adequate power now, or add it later.

pixelthis - I'm really quite content with the Rogers speakers, although I'd clearly need to flesh out the system to go to surround. And as I mentioned, my current room doesn't really lend itself well to surround, so what I'm really looking for at the moment is improved connectivity and enough power / channels to facilitate some later upgrades. Unfortunately, with 8 more consecutive years of college tuition payments ahead, it's going to be a VERY long-term upgrade path. My sense is that I likely won't take immediate advantage of a more current, but less expensive receiver right now - and when I CAN, I'll immediately feel the need to replace it in its entirety, as opposed to being able to continue to use the amp section, either permanently, or as an interim move until if/when I can replace it.

On the other hand, I can simply stick with the AVR 3803 I got on eBay for $200 and hope the itch to improve my current upgrade passes (which isn't likely based on past history...)

If you are happy with those speakers, then I would just add an inexpensive set to
finish off the system, and use those for two-channel.
There is a flood of inexpensive speakers out there, and while they might not be timbre
matched with your mains, I think that that is a highly overrated consideration.
A pair for the rear, a center, and youre done(maybe a sub):1:

BadAssJazz
02-17-2010, 02:15 PM
I read your post and am hearing the Rolling Stones' "Time Is On My Side" for some reason. This is a good thing. Of course, I'm also hearing the SOS Band's "Take Your Time (Do It Right)," which probably means that I need to up my meds. At any rate...

Anyone who has spent the last 30 years with Nikko separates (which weren't necessarily top shelf, but solid units) and Rogers speakers (which still have a soft spot in many audiophile hearts even today) probably shouldn't settle for a receiver...no, not even the Denon 5700 or 3800 series. Nothing wrong with them, mind you. I used to own a 3802 and loved it.

But if you're going to go with "modern vintage," why not stick with separates? An old mid-level receiver is not a good foundation to build upon. You know this already. Don't let your budget constraints steer you down the wrong path. If you get the receiver wrong, you'll find yourself in the same place this time next year, trying to replace that receiver. Best to get a multichannel amp and processor.

The good news is that you can find separates coeval with the Denons which not only outperform them but give you a bit more flexibility. Here are just a few suggestions:

Amps
Rotel RMB1066 $300 - $350 USD (6 X 60wpc; bridgeable to 3 X 120wpc...which means you can still use your Nikko amp short term to drive the back channels.)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1271609105&/Rotel-RMB-1066-

B&K ST1430 $250 - $375 USD (3 X 120wpc)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1269736428&/B-K-ST-1430-3-Channel

Rotel RB985 $250 - $375 USD (5 X 100wpc THX)
http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/Amplifiers-/14970/i.html?_nkw=rotel&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282


Processors
Rotel RSP1066 $300-$375 USD
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1270240988&/Rotel-RSP-1066-Surround-Proces

Meridien 561 $450 - $500 USD (Dolby/ DTS/ THX)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1270331394&/Meridian-561-Dd-Dts-thx-Surround

Meridien 565 $475 - $550 USD
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1270281447&/Meridian-565-7.1-Surround-Processor

BadAssJazz
02-17-2010, 02:44 PM
By the by, I know you'd like to also eventually upgrade your speakers, too, but when you mentioned possibly building a barn...a BARN!!!!...to house your HT, my head started spinning. What I wouldn't give to have that kind of space -- and not a neighbor in sight -- to really set up an HT. Just imagine the speaker possibilities...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270725536&/ESP-Concert-Grand-SI

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1271394244&/Dynaudio-Evidence

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1271102703&/Genesis-Custom--6.1

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270955693&/Aerial-Acoustics-lr5--cc5---sw12--5b

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270933671&/Mcintosh-XRT28-demo

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270878068&/Silverline--Audio-Grand-LaFolia-beaut


Do your kids really need your help? I paid my way through college without any help from the folks. Surely your kids can manage, while you build the HT of your dreams, can't they ???? :)

pixelthis
02-18-2010, 01:52 PM
By the by, I know you'd like to also eventually upgrade your speakers, too, but when you mentioned possibly building a barn...a BARN!!!!...to house your HT, my head started spinning. What I wouldn't give to have that kind of space -- and not a neighbor in sight -- to really set up an HT. Just imagine the speaker possibilities...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270725536&/ESP-Concert-Grand-SI

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1271394244&/Dynaudio-Evidence

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1271102703&/Genesis-Custom--6.1

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270955693&/Aerial-Acoustics-lr5--cc5---sw12--5b

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270933671&/Mcintosh-XRT28-demo

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1270878068&/Silverline--Audio-Grand-LaFolia-beaut


Do your kids really need your help? I paid my way through college without any help from the folks. Surely your kids can manage, while you build the HT of your dreams, can't they ???? :)

Sure, a teen fresh outta Highschool can afford 200 grand.
No problemo.
The white trash institute of glamour and tractor repair, maybe.:1:

pixelthis
02-18-2010, 01:54 PM
Or course we need to keep our priorities straight.
AFTER ALL, we're talking about a killer system!
As opposed to, what ?
How many peeps in Washington got an Ivory league Education?:1:

BadAssJazz
02-18-2010, 02:38 PM
Or course we need to keep our priorities straight.
AFTER ALL, we're talking about a killer system!
As opposed to, what ?
How many peeps in Washington got an Ivory league Education?:1:

And some of them even have Ivy League educations. :)

Exactly, we gotta keep our priorities straight. Ha ha!

And you'd be amazed to find out how many people are in positions of power -- both in the public and private sectors -- that have little to no college at all. And don't get me started on the folks that have degrees, but aren't even working in the field that they majored in [self included; awkwardly raises hand].

Might as well get that barn rocking! :16:

WJK59
02-18-2010, 03:45 PM
By the by, I know you'd like to also eventually upgrade your speakers, too, but when you mentioned possibly building a barn...a BARN!!!!...to house your HT, my head started spinning. What I wouldn't give to have that kind of space -- and not a neighbor in sight -- to really set up an HT. Just imagine the speaker possibilities...

Do your kids really need your help? I paid my way through college without any help from the folks. Surely your kids can manage, while you build the HT of your dreams, can't they ???? :)

Yeah, well...GETTING that space is gonna cost me plenty. It's actually a carriage house, more than a large barn. Probably have to subdivide my lot to pay for it, but I'm getting a bit weary of having to take care of it all, even though it's really not THAT large. And while I'd love to keep the entire barn structure open, including the loft space, the need for another bedroom will probably dictate keeping the upper floor separated from the ground floor. Gotta have room for when the girls need to move back in when they're unemployed AFTER college, you know...
As for paying for college themselves...HA! Daughter #2 just crushed my dream of an "affordable" cheap education by accepting at a private school instead of state school earlier this week. Decent scholarship offer, but it's still going to be double the cost.
At this rate, I'm lucky to even be getting an AV receiver, let alone separates!
I think that once I've got a larger space, I can move toward a more appropriate HT set-up, so for now, maybe the 3803 is a sufficient band-aid. I can relegate it to another room and start building up a decent system with used separates once I clear that hurdle.
It's gonna take a while though.
Do you think they'd have a problem if I set up a kick-ass HT system in the assisted living center I'll likely be living in?

WJK59
02-18-2010, 03:54 PM
But if you're going to go with "modern vintage," why not stick with separates? An old mid-level receiver is not a good foundation to build upon. You know this already. Don't let your budget constraints steer you down the wrong path. If you get the receiver wrong, you'll find yourself in the same place this time next year, trying to replace that receiver. Best to get a multichannel amp and processor.

The good news is that you can find separates coeval with the Denons which not only outperform them but give you a bit more flexibility. Here are just a few suggestions:

Amps
Rotel RMB1066 $300 - $350 USD (6 X 60wpc; bridgeable to 3 X 120wpc...which means you can still use your Nikko amp short term to drive the back channels.)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1271609105&/Rotel-RMB-1066-

B&K ST1430 $250 - $375 USD (3 X 120wpc)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1269736428&/B-K-ST-1430-3-Channel

Rotel RB985 $250 - $375 USD (5 X 100wpc THX)
http://electronics.shop.ebay.com/Amplifiers-/14970/i.html?_nkw=rotel&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282


Processors
Rotel RSP1066 $300-$375 USD
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1270240988&/Rotel-RSP-1066-Surround-Proces

Meridien 561 $450 - $500 USD (Dolby/ DTS/ THX)
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1270331394&/Meridian-561-Dd-Dts-thx-Surround

Meridien 565 $475 - $550 USD
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1270281447&/Meridian-565-7.1-Surround-Processor

Actually, a number of the units you listed, particularly the Rotels, are items I've been scouting for on eBay... but right now, any of those amps OR processors by themselves are quite a bit more than the $200 I paid for the 3803. I figure picking up a decent used amp and pre/pro would set me back at least $800 - $1K. Picking up a multichannel amp without the pre doesn't help me at the moment; nor does picking up the pre/pro without a multi-channel amp. It's a dilemna, for sure. Thus the receiver route - I guess I'll just have to slum it for a bit.

BadAssJazz
02-18-2010, 04:33 PM
Actually, a number of the units you listed, particularly the Rotels, are items I've been scouting for on eBay... but right now, any of those amps OR processors by themselves are quite a bit more than the $200 I paid for the 3803. I figure picking up a decent used amp and pre/pro would set me back at least $800 - $1K. Picking up a multichannel amp without the pre doesn't help me at the moment; nor does picking up the pre/pro without a multi-channel amp. It's a dilemna, for sure. Thus the receiver route - I guess I'll just have to slum it for a bit.

That Denon 3803 is no slouch and will likely carry you through. I had the impression that you were planning to assemble the HT over the better part of the year, without any pressing need to have the entire kit (and kaboodle) now. If that's the case, you're right: a receiver is the best way to go.

My only "but" is that you could probably get a decent receiver with all of the recent HD audio codecs for about $50 - $100 more than the Denon...as is the case with these Onkyos:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR507BLK/Onkyo/Tx-sr507-5.1-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKHTRC160/Onkyo/Ht-rc160-7.2-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-Like-Tx-sr607/1.html

WJK59
02-18-2010, 06:57 PM
I had the impression that you were planning to assemble the HT over the better part of the year, without any pressing need to have the entire kit (and kaboodle) now. If that's the case, you're right: a receiver is the best way to go.

My only "but" is that you could probably get a decent receiver with all of the recent HD audio codecs for about $50 - $100 more than the Denon...as is the case with these Onkyos:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKTXSR507BLK/Onkyo/Tx-sr507-5.1-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKHTRC160/Onkyo/Ht-rc160-7.2-channel-Home-Theater-Receiver-Like-Tx-sr607/1.html

My sense is that I won't really have the entire "kit and kaboodle" any time soon - nor the latest video capability, as I'm not even running a blue-ray player at the moment. You're right that the Onkyo's are tempting for the price point, and might hold me over for longer. Having the ability to plug in an iPod directly in the front panel would be nice, too.

That said, I'd probably use the home theater setup more for watching music DVDs than for surround sound movies, which just isn't as pressing a need for me at the moment. Plus, I tend to listen to music all over the house. I've got an old Kenwood Integrated amp in the kitchen with a CD player and a SlimPlayer for streaming audio. Off of that, I run Parasound in-walls in the kitchen, JBL in-walls in the breakfast room and Definitive Technology outdoor speakers on the deck. I tend to do more active listening in those spaces (2-channel, obviously) than where the TV's set up (since nobody else in the household can quite deal with my eclectic musical tastes), so the need for the HT setup isn't as great as the urge (if that makes any sense).
On top of that, for 2-channel evening/bedtime listening, I do a bit of listening with headphones (see comment about my musical tastes above). I've recently picked up a couple pairs of iems (Westone 3s and Sennheiser ie8s), and I've got a nice old pair of Beyer Dynamic 600 ohm DT990s, for which I've been considering picking up a tube amp. In that sense, I'm pretty covered all over the house for music. In retrospect, I guess I've spread the cost around a bit instead of putting it in one location.

blackraven
02-18-2010, 08:19 PM
Don't sweat not having all the Bells and whistles. I still use a recently out dated Adcom GFR-700 that I bought onsale for $1100 down from $2K. It only has HDMI switching and pass through. It works great and I don't ever feel as though I'm missing out. I just use the analog out from my Bluray for audio and the HDMI hooks into my TV for video.

The Denon 3800 series AVR's are tanks with beefy torroidal power supplies and have very good sound, especially in 2ch if you read the reviews. I almost bought one when I decided on the Adcom which had more 4ohm power for my Magnepans.

paulspencer
02-21-2010, 02:27 AM
WJK,
The Denon has pre outs right? I'd stick with it until it really is holding you back but I'd be surprised if it's really lacking anything. I'd think about external power amps before upgrading it.

I have to ask, why the need to upgrade from there? You say you're happy with the speakers, and that to me suggests that sound quality isn't the issue. If this were a SQ upgrade, then the speakers would surely be the first thing.

By your comments on budget, one suggestion - have you considered diy? If you are handy and can get together a little hobby time then you can put together the system you can't otherwise afford. You can put together a speaker easily for 20% of the cost beyond a certain price point.

WJK59
02-28-2010, 10:31 AM
WJK,
The Denon has pre outs right? I'd stick with it until it really is holding you back but I'd be surprised if it's really lacking anything. I'd think about external power amps before upgrading it.

I have to ask, why the need to upgrade from there? You say you're happy with the speakers, and that to me suggests that sound quality isn't the issue. If this were a SQ upgrade, then the speakers would surely be the first thing.

By your comments on budget, one suggestion - have you considered diy? If you are handy and can get together a little hobby time then you can put together the system you can't otherwise afford. You can put together a speaker easily for 20% of the cost beyond a certain price point.

Yup - the 3803 does have pre-outs, so I'll likely be set for a bit.
I just opened the OTHER Denon received I won a couple of weeks (3300) ago and found it was damaged in transit. Now I wished I'd opened that earlier; gonna be a pain to get resolution from Fedex or eBay.
As for the speakers, I do need to add some speakers. I may move the Rogers S1as into the TV room from the living room, or I may leave them there and pick up a center and a couple of bookshelf speakers for the TV room. I think I'm going to try to limit my search to Monitor Audio (BR2s or maybe used Silver Series?), Paradigm and Definitive Technology - and I'll probably try to pick something up used on eBay or Audiogon. I think I'm going to need to get the issue with the damaged receiver squared away before I start that search in earnest.
I haven't even hooked up the 3803 yet, since I haven't decided what to do with my speakers yet....
You know, the thrill really IS in the hunt....; )

blackraven
02-28-2010, 01:56 PM
If you are looking at monitor audio, check out www.saturdayaudio.com
They run good deals on Monitor audio. They also sell demo's and B stock at greatly discounted prices.