Playing HDCD's

[JoeE SP9]

I have heard that Windows Media Player 10 and higher will properly decode and play HDCD's. According to what I've heard a HDCD flag will appear in media players window when playing HDCD disks. Your sound card must have 24 bit capability.

Does anyone have any knowledge and/or experience with this?

You might want to check your recordings. It seems that many HDCD recordings are not labeled as such. I just checked the CD re-issue Dave Brubeck, Time Out, Columbia CK 65122 it is a HDCD recording although nowhere in the paperwork is it mentioned. The link below lists most HDCD recordings.

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/music/hdcd/hdcd_recordings.htm

[02audionoob]

I get a HDCD logo in the lower left corner of the window.

[Feanor]

...

You might want to check your recordings. It seems that many HDCD recordings are not labeled as such. I just checked the CD re-issue Dave Brubeck, Time Out, Columbia CK 65122 it is a HDCD recording although nowhere in the paperwork is it mentioned. The link below lists most HDCD recordings.

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/music/hdcd/hdcd_recordings.htm
Dunno about WMP, haven't tried it. But I do know that there are CDs not labelled HDCD that are. At least they seem to be because they light the HDCD indicator on my DAC.

I have two or three on the Canadian 'Analekta' label that do this though they aren't marked -- and they aren't on the Goodwin's list.

BTW, FLAC and ALAC lossless encoding does preserve the HDCD data. You will need to have a bit-perfect data stream delivered to the DAC for the HDCD to be recognized by it however.

[nightflier]

But the real question is, can the computer adequately rip the disk at 24 bits. If so, that should compare well to the higher bit downloads now being offered online.

[JoeE SP9]

As far as I've been able to find out. If the sound card does 24bits then you're in. If it doesn't the HDCD flag won't come on in WMP, My DAC does HDCD. Windows doing it is news to me.

[02audionoob]

Here's a screen shot of mine...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4352975162_3b37d1f078_o.jpg

[poppachubby]

Any audible improvements noob?

[02audionoob]

Any audible improvements noob?

Can't tell. My computer audio system is not up to that level.

[Feanor]

But the real question is, can the computer adequately rip the disk at 24 bits. If so, that should compare well to the higher bit downloads now being offered online.
No, HDCD is actually 16 bit though it emulates 20 bit, (not 24). Thus when you rip you get a 16/44.1 file. Above I mentioned that even if you compress to lossless, FLAC, ALAC, etc., the HDCD encoding is preserved, and it you can transmit the decompressed results bit-perfect to your HDCD DAC, it will be recognized as HDCD.

The question I have about WMP's HDCD is whether it will work with an external HDCD DAC. I'm thinking it won't because WMP normally doesn't output a bit-perfect digital signal.

[IBSTORMIN]

I read somewhere that some of the manufacturors are getting better sound by eliminating the HDCD decoding from their equipment. It seems it gets in the way when playing a standard CD. I'll have to see if I can find where I read that. If you want true high end sound, go to HDAD 192/24 instead. Of course you will need a DVD-A player and there is a very limited selection.

[JoeE SP9]

No, HDCD is actually 16 bit though it emulates 20 bit, (not 24). Thus when you rip you get a 16/44.1 file. Above I mentioned that even if you compress to lossless, FLAC, ALAC, etc., the HDCD encoding is preserved, and it you can transmit the decompressed results bit-perfect to your HDCD DAC, it will be recognized as HDCD.

The question I have about WMP's HDCD is whether it will work with an external HDCD DAC. I'm thinking it won't because WMP normally doesn't output a bit-perfect digital signal.

I wonder I it does when using ASIO. Using it is supposed to produce bit-perfect output.

[Feanor]

I wonder I it does when using ASIO. Using it is supposed to produce bit-perfect output.
That could be if you can use an ASIO driver with WMP; last I was aware you couldn't and were constrained to use the standard Windows "Direct Sound' -- which apparently is a misnomer.

Foobar2000 which I use, and some other players including WinAmp, I believe, do permit the user to specify an ASIO driver. Foobar + ASIO do deliver bit-permit out put to an external DAC, at least as evidenced the fact that my DAC's HDCD indicator lights up. This is not the case when I use WMP or iTunes.

I suppose its possible that WMP can deliver HDCD results using the computers analog outputs. The whole question of Windows' audio "stack" is rather complicated and I don't pretent to understand it. WinXP is different from Vista and Win7.

[nightflier]

So is there any way to rip a file that is 24 bits, like the ones being sold at a premium online?

[JoeE SP9]

I'm listening to Take Five from Time Out right now. The HDCD option seems to have more low level detail. The reverb tails seem to be smoother and longer. I get more of a sense of "there" there.
Here is a link for an ASIO plug-in that supports media player. It makes a difference in the sound!

Feanor;
When I got my MSB DAC I had the option of up and over sampling or HDCD playback. I chose the up and over option. At the time I had no idea there were as many HDCD coded CD's. I never thought I was missing anything until I became aware how many of my CD's are actually HDCD. There had to be a good reason for it. Now that I've heard HDCD's on my system I know there is.
For anyone whose DAC doesn't recognize HDCD try media player with the ASIO plug-in. HDCD analog out from a decent sound card can and does sound pretty good. Plus, you can still use your DAC for non HDCD

http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/

[Feanor]

So is there any way to rip a file that is 24 bits, like the ones being sold at a premium online?
'Flier, what format are these files? Are they not compter files? If so, there is nothing to "rip"; that term applies to applies specifically to moving from an audio CD (or DVD video) to computer file.

I don't have any hi-rez files, but various music players will handle them, e.g. Foobar2000 I'm pretty sure.

[Feanor]

I'm listening to Take Five from Time Out right now. The HDCD option seems to have more low level detail. The reverb tails seem to be smoother and longer. I get more of a sense of "there" there.
Here is a link for an ASIO plug-in that supports media player. It makes a difference in the sound!

Feanor;
When I got my MSB DAC I had the option of up and over sampling or HDCD playback. I chose the up and over option. At the time I had no idea there were as many HDCD coded CD's. I never thought I was missing anything until I became aware how many of my CD's are actually HDCD. There had to be a good reason for it. Now that I've heard HDCD's on my system I know there is.
For anyone whose DAC doesn't recognize HDCD try media player with the ASIO plug-in. HDCD analog out from a decent sound card can and does sound pretty good. Plus, you can still use your DAC for non HDCD

http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg/
It's good hear that WMP now has its own ASIO plugin. However if you are using an external DAC, I would try the ASIO instead of WMP's HDCD. Consider that Foobar2000 doesn' do HDCD but with the either Kernel Streaming or ASIO components it will send a bit perfect signal to an external DAC in which case the latter's HDCD decoding will kick in.

On the other hand with WMP's HDCD enabled, it isn't clear to me what the external DAC will receive. If the external DAC is getting only 16 bit/44.1 kHz then the HDCD benefit isn't being passed on. But note that HDCD does it's own form of oversampling, so if the external DAC is getting greater than 16/44.1 then perhaps all is well & fine. Am I clear?

[JoeE SP9]

My DAC gave me a choice of HDCD decoding or up and over sampling. I chose the up and over option. That's why finding out WMP does HDCD was such a big deal for me. I'm using a Creative Labs X-Fi Pro Elite. It's supposed to have a pretty good DAC.

[nightflier]

'Flier, what format are these files? Are they not compter files? If so, there is nothing to "rip"; that term applies to applies specifically to moving from an audio CD (or DVD video) to computer file.

I'm talking about the files that you can get from HDtracks and similar sites, a symphony will run a good gigabyte, I think. if I would like to try and rip files at the highest quality possible from the HDCD, what's the best I can get and what tools do I need?

[Feanor]

I'm talking about the files that you can get from HDtracks and similar sites, a symphony will run a good gigabyte, I think. if I would like to try and rip files at the highest quality possible from the HDCD, what's the best I can get and what tools do I need?
I'm still not sure I'm understanding you, so let me know if I'm confused.

HDCD is 16 bit x 44.1 kHz, period. To get "top quality" rip for an HDCD disc, all you have to do is to rip it straight at 16/44.1 -- getting HDCD results happens during playback, that is, you need an HDCD decoder in your player or DAC. I rip HDCD to 16/44.1 as usual; to do it, I use dBpoweramp Reference in secure mode.

OK, like any other 16/44.1 file, you can upsample an HDCD file to whatever rate your upsampling software or hardward supports. However standard upsampling will loose the HDCD encoding. There might be a net advantage to upsampling rather than using HDCD decoding, depending on you equipment, but you can't have both at the same time.

The question of upsampling a native 16/44.1 file is a bit murky, but there are at least four ways to do it:

Using a software upsampler in a file conversion process, i.e. not in real-time
Use a software upsampler in real-time during playback, e.g. using a music player plug-in such as Secret Rabbit or SoX in Foobar2000
Do hardware oversampling, i.e. an even multiple of the incoming rate, e.g. 4X, during playback.
Use an asynchronous hardware upsampler chip, (to say go from 44.1 to 192 where the latter isn't an even multiple of the former), during playback ahead of the actual DAC stage. An advantage, I'm told, is that asynchronous upsample requires reclocking perforce, and this hopefully reduces jitter.

[nightflier]

Sorry, forgot your previous post about HDCD being 16/44.1. So barring some way to rip DVD-A or SACD, 16/44.1 is the best file I can get into a digital format, right?

[Feanor]

Sorry, forgot your previous post about HDCD being 16/44.1. So barring some way to rip DVD-A or SACD, 16/44.1 is the best file I can get into a digital format, right?
Well yes, at least from a CD. Of course higher rez is available in compter files.

Granted, there are options for up and/or oversampling native 16/44.1 files: see my other post. Whether these will make for better playback depends on on your player and equipment. Personally I don't believe there is a fixed rule at the present state of the art.

[JoeE SP9]

The files from HDtracks are 24/96. Other than DVD-A or SACD they are the highest quality music files available. To use them, it's from your computer's hard drive or as a DVD audio sound track which you can burn.

My Creative Labs sound card supports recording and playback at rates up to 24/96.

[nightflier]

Any issues playing 24/96 tracks via USB > DAC?

[Luvin Da Blues]

Any issues playing 24/96 tracks via USB > DAC?

I've not had any problems playing them on my MH. '461 Ocean Boulevard' (remastered), among others, sounds fantastic.