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Hyfi
02-03-2010, 04:17 PM
In reference to my post below about breakers....

I was driving home from Home Depot with my shiny new circuit breaker and started to think about this-

I have about 10K worth of audio and video gear plugged into a $400 surge/filter box, going into a $10 electrical outlet, connected to maybe $10 of 3 conductor romex, and all of that gets terminated into a $3.88 breaker. What's wrong with that picture? Would it be better or worse if I connected my gear directly to the breaker? After all the flimsy 4 dollar breaker is the very starting point of the food chain for 10K worth of hungry components.

Then I started to question how a different power cord in a component would make a huge noticeable difference if the power conditioner/surge/filter was not in the chain and the high end power cord is plugged right into the wall outlet. The new power cord may be 12, 10, or 9 gauge cable but the house wiring is probably 12 maybe 14 gauge. So where does the larger power cord get anything more out of the electricity than gets delivered to the outlet?

Or, like with better cables, you are just getting a much better connection?

LDB, can you splain it so an electrical handicapped individual like me can understand it?

Luvin Da Blues
02-03-2010, 05:57 PM
... After all the flimsy 4 dollar breaker is the very starting point of the food chain for 10K worth of hungry components.

Then I started to question how a different power cord in a component would make a huge noticeable difference if the power conditioner/surge/filter was not in the chain and the high end power cord is plugged right into the wall outlet. The new power cord may be 12, 10, or 9 gauge cable but the house wiring is probably 12 maybe 14 gauge. So where does the larger power cord get anything more out of the electricity than gets delivered to the outlet?

Or, like with better cables, you are just getting a much better connection?


Would it make you feel better if they charged you $200 for that breaker? :biggrin5: 1P breakers here in the frozen arctic tundra run about $10 to $12. There really is not much to a cct brkr. Hospital and instrument breakers have a bit tighter tolerances and possibly silver plated contacts.

To determine line loss in different cable sizes is a simple math calc. Assuming you have a full 120 volts at the panel mains under normal loading a typical calc would look like this; (Assumptions; distance from the panel to receptacle 50ft, 5 ft,10 and 16 gauge [for comparison]equipment cord, 14 gauge house wire and a 10 amp load) and use Ohm's Law E=I x R where E=applied voltage, I=amperge and R=resistance.

So, Voltage drop in the house wire = 10 amp x 2(50ft x 0.00297 ohms/ft) = 2.97 volts

and, voltage drop in the 10 gauge cord = 10 amp x 2(5ft x 0.00118 ohms/ft) = 0.118 volts

also, voltage drop in the 16 gauge cord = 10 amp x 2(5ft x 0.00437 ohms/ft) = 0.437 volts

Larger wire won't make for a 'better' connection but does decrease the line losses in the power cabling.

Resistance/foot used in calcs,
Copper wire resistance per foot
4 .000292
6 .000465
8 .000739
10 .00118
12 .00187
14 .00297
16 .00473
18 .00751
20 .0119
22 .0190
24 .0302
26 .0480
28 .0764

Luvin Da Blues
02-03-2010, 06:09 PM
BTW, 'What is wrong with this picture?' is one of my favorite Van Morrison disks.

atomicAdam
02-03-2010, 06:53 PM
It does seem to me there is something wrong with the picture, in a way.

Better power cords should at least filter out some noise, not only give a better connection.

One thing is for certain though, at least in my humble experience, better power cords to make an audible difference.

Luvin Da Blues
02-03-2010, 07:09 PM
It does seem to me there is something wrong with the picture, in a way.

Better power cords should at least filter out some noise, not only give a better connection.

One thing is for certain though, at least in my humble experience, better power cords to make an audible difference.

True, but now your taking bout shielding and noise/signal rejection which is a very different ball game that requires a helluva lot more expertise that I can provide.

Hyfi
02-04-2010, 03:57 AM
Would it make you feel better if they charged you $200 for that breaker? :biggrin5: 1P breakers here in the frozen arctic tundra run about $10 to $12. There really is not much to a cct brkr. Hospital and instrument breakers have a bit tighter tolerances and possibly silver plated contacts.

To determine line loss in different cable sizes is a simple math calc. Assuming you have a full 120 volts at the panel mains under normal loading a typical calc would look like this; (Assumptions; distance from the panel to receptacle 50ft, 5 ft,10 and 16 gauge [for comparison]equipment cord, 14 gauge house wire and a 10 amp load) and use Ohm's Law E=I x R where E=applied voltage, I=amperge and R=resistance.

So, Voltage drop in the house wire = 10 amp x 2(50ft x 0.00297 ohms/ft) = 2.97 volts

and, voltage drop in the 10 gauge cord = 10 amp x 2(5ft x 0.00118 ohms/ft) = 0.118 volts

also, voltage drop in the 16 gauge cord = 10 amp x 2(5ft x 0.00437 ohms/ft) = 0.437 volts

Larger wire won't make for a 'better' connection but does decrease the line losses in the power cabling.

Resistance/foot used in calcs,
Copper wire resistance per foot
4 .000292
6 .000465
8 .000739
10 .00118
12 .00187
14 .00297
16 .00473
18 .00751
20 .0119
22 .0190
24 .0302
26 .0480
28 .0764
Thanks for all that. What I meant about the better connection was that the spades might be wider and thicker to create a better connection, not having anything to do with the gauge of cable.

And yes, I would feel better if the breaker cost more and had similar quality as all the items attached to it. But it's just a flimsy pc of crap.

So far three times powered up and no blowouts, hopefully all I had was a flakey breaker.

poppachubby
02-04-2010, 05:18 AM
All of those things in your breaker box have been rated and approved by your gov't agency, UL is it? They are simple in design and perform very specific tasks, thus the low price. And thank God for that, can you imagine if you showed up at the store and the minimum price was $50? And not only that, imagine if the shelf had 8 - 10 different breakers all claiming different results and voodoo?

The truth is, it would be a nightmare. I totally understand your point regarding the ratio of your gear to your box. Just rest assured that what's in your box has been held to a pretty high standard, and we're fortunate that these things are priced affordably.

If you want a good laugh, find a site that sells receptacles and try to imagine which one you would buy. They are all overpriced and promising the moon...

E-Stat
02-04-2010, 07:49 AM
I have about 10K worth of audio and video gear plugged into a $400 surge/filter box, going into a $10 electrical outlet, connected to maybe $10 of 3 conductor romex, and all of that gets terminated into a $3.88 breaker. What's wrong with that picture? Would it be better or worse if I connected my gear directly to the breaker? After all the flimsy 4 dollar breaker is the very starting point of the food chain for 10K worth of hungry components.
Speaking of *hungry* components, I was finally able to get two additional 20A lines dropped into the upstairs bedroom which is the listening room. Each VTL amp can draw 10A and I was running everything off of one circuit. They are no longer starved. As long as the breakers can pass their rated current and has solid connections, I can't see where it would make much difference.

Outlets and cords are a different matter. While I don't use the $100 Oyaide outlets, I did invest in $15 hospital grade Levitons. The stiffness of the power cords were pulling the plugs out of the outlets. The orange hospital grade units have firmer connections.


Then I started to question how a different power cord in a component would make a huge noticeable difference if the power conditioner/surge/filter was not in the chain and the high end power cord is plugged right into the wall outlet.
I have several lower end Monster conditioners which work well for sources, but not for power amplifiers. I always go direct to wall with them. There are some high end conditioners from companies like Audience, Nordost and Shunyata (among others) that are specifically designed for high current amplifiers. But they come at a price.


The new power cord may be 12, 10, or 9 gauge cable but the house wiring is probably 12 maybe 14 gauge. So where does the larger power cord get anything more out of the electricity than gets delivered to the outlet?
One consideration is that the power draw requirement is on an instantaneous, not continuous basis. The question is not whether or not the cord can increase the current available - it is always how much it restricts the instantaneous current. It would be overkill using massive cords when run through typical 15 amp circuits and 14 gauge wire. 20 amp circuits, BTW require 12 gauge. You'll find another example of instantaneous current restriction with car jumper cables. I have some Sears cables which are something like 4 gauge which are noticeably better than lesser cables I've used - even though the car wiring itself never uses cable that large. With many jumpers on a weak battery, you have to let the *donor* vehicle run a bit to get enough starting voltage over to the dead one. These suckers almost always work immediately.

rw

rakeford
02-04-2010, 08:58 AM
1. Manufactures make them in batches of a gazillion, for people who (believe it or not) are not audiophiles.

2. Very few audiophiles are online saying,
"I just install XYZ Inc. 'PureBreak TM' circuit breakers in my house circuit box. Now my audio system sounds a million time better. The enhanced clarity in the 30 to 100 KHz range is astonishing".

poppachubby
02-04-2010, 10:21 AM
1. Manufactures make them in batches of a gazillion, for people who (believe it or not) are not audiophiles.

2. Very few audiophiles are online saying,
"I just install XYZ Inc. 'PureBreak TM' circuit breakers in my house circuit box. Now my audio system sounds a million time better. The enhanced clarity in the 30 to 100 KHz range is astonishing".

Hahahaha, wicked...

Jose Jimenez
02-04-2010, 07:13 PM
Older and great amplifiers that have unregulated power supplies will have their supply Voltage gently lay down once the power demand goes up, tube or solid state. To me no big deal. My preference was to have 12 ga wiring to the components and I honestly have been using Square "D" breakers once I moved out of Chicago where I had a fuse box. I have never noticed a difference if it was generated using coal, hydro, or nuclear! Some less expensive equipment wll pass line noise if you listen and it more than likely is coming from the neighbors. I used to think about it when using the reel tape recorders but what could you do back then when you had little money.

Luvin Da Blues
02-06-2010, 05:45 AM
Speaking of *hungry* components, I was finally able to get two additional 20A lines dropped into the upstairs bedroom which is the listening room.
rw


FWIW, it's always a good idea to run two separate 2wire cables (as opposed to 1 three wire cable) so your equipment is not sharing the neutral or ground conductor.