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MntnMan62
01-31-2010, 10:25 AM
I am in the process of setting up my 2 channel system in the basement "studio/gym". I say studio because my drums are set up down there. I recently bought a Harman Kardon HK 3490 which puts out a max of 120 watts per channel. I have a pair of Paradigm Titans, I think version 2, which seem to have blown tweeters. I will probably replace the tweeters but I don't think they will handle the power of the HK. Therefore, I'm in the market for a nice pair of bookshelf speakers to go with the HK. I also have a Polk PSW10 subwoofer. I had bought that prior to knowing the tweeters were blown. Anyway, since I have the sub I'm looking for a pair that have the highs and midrange as its strengths. My price range is in the $500 per pair range. Could go a little higher if I feel its justified. Anyway, I have a list of possibilities that I know can handle the HKs power output and in no particular order:

Silverline Audio Minuet
Polk RTi A3
Polk TSi200
Pinnacle BD500
Klipsch RB-51 or RB-61
Aperion Intimus 5B
Axiom M22 v2
Focal Chorus 706v

I would very much appreciate some perspective to help narrow the choices down. I realize speakers and stereo systems for that matter are very much a personal choice. My taste in music runs from Rock to R&B to Jazz to Funk. And of course, I will be heading out to go listen but thought I'd hear peoples thoughts before I do some auditioning. Thanks in advance for everyone's help.

mountwoody
01-31-2010, 10:51 AM
I have been looking for a while also. I personally settled on a pair of Polk TSi100. You may want to look into a pair of Polk TSi200. They run 399 a pair. I did see a new reburb pair on Polk Audio's Ebay website sell yesterday for $167.50 + 30.00 dollars shipping. They come with a factory 2 year warranty. I am pretty sure you can also get a pair of these for that price. They handle up to 150 watts and have extension down into the high 40's. They are receiving good reviews. I was going to go with the 200's but I need the highs and midrange more. If you use these for your fronts with your H/K should be a good solid buy. I also have an H/K receiver and just love it. The HSU research bookshelf speakers are also a good buy and have received stellar reviews. I have not heard them, but the company has a solid track record of quality and customer service....as does SVS who also has some nice speakers to check out.

mountwoody
01-31-2010, 11:06 AM
Correction my friend, Amazon has the Polk TSi200 for 299 a pair with free shipping.

MntnMan62
01-31-2010, 11:11 AM
Thanks Mountwoody. That kind of pricing is extremely attractive. I was reading the reviews of the Silverline Minuets which have me drooling. But I doubt I'll be able to audition those since I don't think anyone in New Jersey or NYC carry them. Not sure I want to buy blind. Thanks for the perspective. I assume the TSi 200s or the RTi A3s would go well with the PSW10 sub.

TheHills44060
01-31-2010, 11:19 AM
The Silverlines and Focals are at the top of that list for me. I am in the same boat as you though not having heard the Silverlines myself either.

MntnMan62
01-31-2010, 11:29 AM
After looking at the Focal website, it says amplifier power for the 706v's is 25 to 120w. I'm not sure if that is total or per channel. I'm sort of new to this whole thing.

RGA
01-31-2010, 12:09 PM
Don't pay attention to the watts - they're practically meaningless

My amp is 10 watts and I'll blow you into next week. Volume level is a function of speaker sensitivity, efficiency and "real watts."

I say real watts because "good" amplifiers have a "good" power supply and an ability to go way above their rated numbers. Most receivers however are not "good" amplifiers. How can a 10 watt amp beat a 100 watt amp you may be thinking. Well volume is expressed as decibels (db) and not expressed in watts. This confuses most beginning audiophiles because you see advertisements that this amp is 100 watts this amp is 300 watts and you think ah it must be louder - no it's not - it can be louder but in itself it isn't. There is a grant Fidelity tube amp that is rated at 45 watts for example that drives hard to drive speakers very very well while a receiver rated at 150 watts may blow up trying to drive them. Most of the best sounding amplifiers also tend to be lower watt varieties regardless of cost.

I digress. How can 10 watts blow you into next week - or even 1.5 watt amplifiers (and they are out there and they can cost 5 figures? Speaker efficiency, sensitivity.

The "average" speaker sensitivity is 87db (1 watt @ 1 meter) - that means that when you put 1 watt of electricity into your speaker you will get a VOLUME level of 87 decibels at a distance of 1 meter. Can you see where this is going? If you buy a 97db sensitive speaker they you get 10db more volume with the same 1 watt. What is 10db? 10db is a "doubling" of the "perceived" volume level - ie it is twice as loud as 87db. But here is the issue - for every 3db more vlume requires a doubling of amplifier power.

So if your buddy has an 87db speaker and a 100 watt amp

87db - 1watt
90db - 2 watts (this is considered loud - most people listen at under 85db most of the time)
93db - 4 watts
96db - 8 watts
99db - 16 watts
102db - 32 watts
105db - 64 watts
108db -128 watts (but remember if the speaker can't handle more than 120 watts then anything past this is meaningless).

Now if YOU have a speaker rated at 98db sensitive and an 8 watt Single ended tube amplifier)

98db - 1 watt (You'r buddy needs 16 watts to your 1 watt).
101db - 2 watts
104db - 4 watts
107 - 8 watts ( you are now playing at the same volume level as your buddies system with his 128 watt amp.
110 - 16 watts

There are other factors involved - speaker's load characteristics and the way a speaker's dispersion enhances or detracts from requiring amplifier power.

But if I want loud with not a lot of watts then Klipsch has always been one of the better speakers for that - the Reference series from them would be a good selection - they're more rock, dance pop hip hop geared than most at the price. Horn speakers tend to be higher in sensitivity and "generally" present easy loads for tube amps - ie low powered amps. And while you may not be thinking of tube amps at this point in your audiophile journey - you may think about trying them 5 years down the line - in which case it makes a lot of sense to buy an easy to drive high sensitivity loudspeaker. Unfortunately Klipsh tends to show up mediocre sound quality of budget gear - people blame Klipsch unfortunately when they should be blaming the stuff connected to it.

The Klipsch Ref series often comes up on sale - that is th eline to get not the RB line. The REF 62 was selling in Canada for $299 each at a store called London Drugs - yes it's weird that a drug store sells audio - they carry some high end gear sometimes oddly enough.

MntnMan62
01-31-2010, 12:36 PM
Thanks for the education. Now I'm even more confused. None the less, in looking at the Klipsch Reference series, and the Klipsch website, they are showing the RB's as reference. The B must stand for bookshelf and the RFs, the F must stand for Floorstanding.

frenchmon
01-31-2010, 12:40 PM
I am in the process of setting up my 2 channel system in the basement "studio/gym". I say studio because my drums are set up down there. I recently bought a Harman Kardon HK 3490 which puts out a max of 120 watts per channel. I have a pair of Paradigm Titans, I think version 2, which seem to have blown tweeters. I will probably replace the tweeters but I don't think they will handle the power of the HK. Therefore, I'm in the market for a nice pair of bookshelf speakers to go with the HK. I also have a Polk PSW10 subwoofer. I had bought that prior to knowing the tweeters were blown. Anyway, since I have the sub I'm looking for a pair that have the highs and midrange as its strengths. My price range is in the $500 per pair range. Could go a little higher if I feel its justified. Anyway, I have a list of possibilities that I know can handle the HKs power output and in no particular order:

Silverline Audio Minuet
Polk RTi A3
Polk TSi200
Pinnacle BD500
Klipsch RB-51 or RB-61
Aperion Intimus 5B
Axiom M22 v2
Focal Chorus 706v

I would very much appreciate some perspective to help narrow the choices down. I realize speakers and stereo systems for that matter are very much a personal choice. My taste in music runs from Rock to R&B to Jazz to Funk. And of course, I will be heading out to go listen but thought I'd hear peoples thoughts before I do some auditioning. Thanks in advance for everyone's help.

While I have not heard them, I've been to the Aperion forum and spoke to the guys over there who seem to think the Intimus 5B's are a good performer for the money. I was thinking about the 6B's about a year ago. They give you a 30 day in home trial before they charge you and if you don't like them, they pay for you to ship them back. They also come with a 10 year warranty. And there floorstandes have won a few awards.

frenchmon

02audionoob
01-31-2010, 12:47 PM
I think your taste in music sounds like what the Focal Chorus 706v does rather well. I have the Cobalt 806S on a 125-watt Marantz and was initially surprised at how little it took to seemingly over-drive them, but I think the Chorus is a bit more of a rocker.

blackraven
01-31-2010, 10:42 PM
I think the warmth of the HK receiver would match well with a pair of B&W 686's, PSB B-25's, PSB T-45's

http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/image_specials_07-29-2009.htm

Monitor Audio RS1's http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/monitor_audio_silver_rs_sale.htm

By the way, its better to have too much power than 2 little power. Too little power will damage speakers in a hurry if turned up too loud.

RGA
02-01-2010, 12:53 AM
By the way, its better to have too much power than 2 little power. Too little power will damage speakers in a hurry if turned up too loud.

This is a myth that needs to stop on internet forums.

Speakers can be damaged with too much power or distortion. And very little else. The reason some report that their lower powered amp blows up speakers is simply and ONLY because they pushed the volume too hard - ran the loudspeaker into distortion - which tweeters don't like and they blow up. When you hear audible distortion - turn it down.

poppachubby
02-01-2010, 02:49 AM
This will be my third referral in a week, but for your price range Tektons are a great choice. They are extremely revealing while being non fatiguing. For $500, you could afford the Model 8.1, a fantastic speaker that can play down quite low. Unless you're a real bass junky, no sub would be required. They are quite efficient at 96db.

http://www.tektondesign.com/model81.htm

http://www.tektondesign.com/images/model81large.jpg

poppachubby
02-01-2010, 03:11 AM
Thanks for the education. Now I'm even more confused. None the less, in looking at the Klipsch Reference series, and the Klipsch website, they are showing the RB's as reference. The B must stand for bookshelf and the RFs, the F must stand for Floorstanding.

Actually, he couldn't have broken it down any better. Sounds like you need to read up MtnMan. Anyhow my Sound Dynamics play to 99db/M. That's 12 inches all up in your face homey!!

Feanor
02-01-2010, 06:22 AM
This is a myth that needs to stop on internet forums.

Speakers can be damaged with too much power or distortion. And very little else. The reason some report that their lower powered amp blows up speakers is simply and ONLY because they pushed the volume too hard - ran the loudspeaker into distortion - which tweeters don't like and they blow up. When you hear audible distortion - turn it down.
That's true, RGA. You'll likely hear distortion before it blows the speakers -- on the other hand, your drunken party revellers might have altogether too much tolerance for distortion.

MntnMan62
02-01-2010, 07:27 AM
I really appreciate everyone's imput here, especially RGA for the detailed technical perspective. Realizing that it is all about listening, I will be heading to a Best Buy to listend to the Polks and the Klipsch's side by side. The other ones on the list don't appear to be sold by anyone nearby for me to listen to them. I may also look further into the Aperions since they offer a 30 day no risk at home trial period. On the subject of power, I don't usually play music at very loud volumes however, I would still like to know that I can if on occasion I want to crank some Zappa or Return to Forever or Michael Brecker. And if I understand RGA correctly, since my HK puts out 120 watts per channel, I need a speaker that can handle that amount of power. I now know I also need to check the speaker's sensitivity as well. And if I still have it all wrong RGA, don't hesitate to let me know.

poppachubby
02-01-2010, 07:38 AM
I really appreciate everyone's imput here, especially RGA for the detailed technical perspective. Realizing that it is all about listening, I will be heading to a Best Buy to listend to the Polks and the Klipsch's side by side. The other ones on the list don't appear to be sold by anyone nearby for me to listen to them. I may also look further into the Aperions since they offer a 30 day no risk at home trial period. On the subject of power, I don't usually play music at very loud volumes however, I would still like to know that I can if on occasion I want to crank some Zappa or Return to Forever or Michael Brecker. And if I understand RGA correctly, since my HK puts out 120 watts per channel, I need a speaker that can handle that amount of power. I now know I also need to check the speaker's sensitivity as well. And if I still have it all wrong RGA, don't hesitate to let me know.

If you want to buy one pair of speakers, once; take your amp with you! Unless it's an ungodly inconvenience, take the HK to Best Buy, and try to get into an H/T room to listen. Don't listen on the floor, you won't learn anything.

Make the sales people work for you. Most of these places have at least one proper room with a seat. You can position everything correctly and actually listen to the results.

Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother. You'd be better off just buying a pair to bring home and then return once you're done.

MntnMan62
02-01-2010, 08:50 AM
Good advice Poppachubby.

poppachubby
02-01-2010, 09:02 AM
Brecker fan huh? I occasionaly blast these originals...

MntnMan62
02-01-2010, 09:15 AM
Great stuff. Heavy Metal Bebop is sick with Bozzio on drums.

poppachubby
02-01-2010, 10:08 AM
Anyhow, give the Tektons some thought. You can email them any questions you might have. I can promise you they'll sound better than the Polks. The Klipsch are in their own category, dependant on whether you like that bright sound or not.

RGA
02-01-2010, 11:30 AM
I really appreciate everyone's imput here, especially RGA for the detailed technical perspective. Realizing that it is all about listening, I will be heading to a Best Buy to listend to the Polks and the Klipsch's side by side. The other ones on the list don't appear to be sold by anyone nearby for me to listen to them. I may also look further into the Aperions since they offer a 30 day no risk at home trial period. On the subject of power, I don't usually play music at very loud volumes however, I would still like to know that I can if on occasion I want to crank some Zappa or Return to Forever or Michael Brecker. And if I understand RGA correctly, since my HK puts out 120 watts per channel, I need a speaker that can handle that amount of power. I now know I also need to check the speaker's sensitivity as well. And if I still have it all wrong RGA, don't hesitate to let me know.

You don't need a speaker that can handle 120 watts - you could buy a speaker that can handle 300 watts or a speaker that can handle 20 watts. Think of a loudspeaker as a bucket and an amplifier as a well. The speaker merely asks the amplifier for power. My speakers handle 80 watts and my amplifier is 10 watts. Actually the amplifier is 4.2 watts without distortion. You'd be surprised just how little watts you actually ever use - whether the amplifier is 5 watts or 500 watts. most of the time you're under 2 watts. Which is why I would rather buy quality than quantity.

If a 5 watt amp can drive you from the room with your ears ringing then it's not something to pay much attention to is it. The problem is marketing departments have nothing to SELL. At big box chains where listening conditions are terrible - it's hard for the average person to hear which is better. So they try and sell numbers - similar to mega pixels on a camera. More is not necessarily better - A DSLR 6mp camera is usually better than a 12mp point and shoot because it's all in the lens not the digital processing.

Your amp will drive most loudspeakers and probably all loudspeakers in the price band you're considering. The easy to drive speakers are a good idea because if down the road you choose to get really serious about this then you can look at better quality lower powered amp and you won't need to replace your speakers. The Klipsch or possibly the Tektons mentioned would certainly be easy to drive loudspeakers - the trouble with single drivers tends to be a lack of bass output - but frankly most speakers this size don't have a ton of bass depth. It would be nice if whatever you choose you can audition first. You may like the Polks although Klipsch may have an edge here. Athena Technologies and Energy loudspeakers (sister companies) if they're in your area are pretty easy to drive and sound pretty good for the money as well.

RGA
02-01-2010, 11:33 AM
That's true, RGA. You'll likely hear distortion before it blows the speakers -- on the other hand, your drunken party revellers might have altogether too much tolerance for distortion.

That's quite true - most tweeters can handle about 8-10 watts of distortion - after that they blow up. So there is something to be said for those 3 watt amps - you can run them at full output at their highest distortion and they simply don't have the power to blow a loudspeaker. You're friends can turn the dial to max and you're safe. Do that with a top of the line Bryston and watch the woofers explode.:ihih:

blackraven
02-01-2010, 12:06 PM
I've seem many of my friends tweeters blown because they turn turn their low powered amps up too high, as well as speakers blown from too much power. Most of these people are not audio people and don't know any better. You see it car audio all the time! So I would not call it a myth because it does happen. But your right. Most people will turn down the volume when they hear distortion.

RGA
02-01-2010, 01:34 PM
No the myth is that low powered amps will blow a speaker while a high power amp will not. Both can blow up a loudspeaker. Running the amp into distortion can blow up a speaker and granted a lower power amp will reach distortion sooner than a high power amp - but this is not the low powered amps fault - it is the fault of the owner. And unfortunately it then gives us a very wrong notion that more power is better - it's not - several articles illustrate that high powered amps usually sound worse that lower powered amplifiers.

And there's the rub. People buy impossible to drive loudspeakers and then they have to buy worse sounding big, usually very expensive power amplifiers. The whole room is taken up with monstrous sized loudspeakers, amplifiers, cables etc. And the sad thing is eve if the hard to drive loudspeaker truly did sound good (and most of the time they don't) - that advantage is very likely destroyed by having to connect worse sounding front end equipment. Garbage in garbage out. Walking around CES and it was interesting that most of the best speakers, amplifiers were not all that big, and didn't have massive equipment connected up to it. Some exceptions of course - but even then the cost to performance ratio wasn't really there.

blackraven
02-01-2010, 02:01 PM
I never said that high powered amps won't blow speakers, I've seen it happen a few times.

I'm in total agreement with your RGA!

mountwoody
02-01-2010, 05:58 PM
Guys there is a big difference between tube amps and solid state amplifiers. Tube amp can be overdriven where a solid state amp will not without sounding like crap. Tube amps have much better and more efficient power. Not to mention they sound a lot better. Tube amps produce wonderful sound saturation.I only know this from playing the electric guitar for years and owned a lot of different amplifiers. I rarely use much solid state amplification. Tube amps are more money in the home theater realm. Doubt I'll ever own one. As far as blowing speakers. Electrical current blows speakers..... too much current. Too little current can damage your amp if using the wrong speakers..less sensitive higher wattage ones. Let's just get back on tract. if the fella needs 8 ohm speakers. And his receiver can produce 120 watts per channel. Then his "safe bet" would be to purchase something that meets or exeeds those specs. Then he can let er rip !!! And watch which one blows first. His amp or his speakers. Neither should happen unless he plays his music cranked to the max for an extremely long peroid of time. Go with the Polk TSi200 and enjoy my friend.

MntnMan62
02-07-2010, 07:59 PM
Ok. I had went to demo some Polk TSi200s and RTi A3s. Can't find anyone near me who has them. I also wanted to listen to Klipsch Reference series RB-61s. Same deal. I did listen to some other Klipsch.....WB something or other. I compared them against the Paradigm Atoms, which this place did have. I liked the Paradigms better. Didn't really like the overly bright sound of the Klipsch. They weren't bad by any stretch but I prefered the Paradigm sound. However, I have realized I'm not going to be able to listen to any of the speakers on my list. Based purely on reviews I've read online, I have narrowed my decision to the Polk TSi200s, Polk RTi A3s and the Silverline Audio Minuets. Since I already have the Polk PSW10 subwoofer, I figure the Polks could be a nice match for relatively small dollars at $300 or $450 for the pair respectively. The Silverline Minuets seem to have STELLAR reviews from eveyone who has listened to them. They seem to excel in the midrange and treble and appear to be ideal when paired with a subwoofer. The only hesitancy is the $600 cost. DeepSurplus.com has a pair for $525 but I am wary of going with a discount seller to save a lousy $75. Should I splurge or stick with the conservative choice and go with the Polks. On the Polk front, I am leaning towards the RTi A3s. All I need is a nudge in one direction or the other. Anyone?.........

MntnMan62
02-23-2010, 11:16 AM
I just wanted to thank everyone who responded and provided me with an education. I just thought I would say that I pulled the trigger on the Silverline Minuets. They are shipping out today. Now I can't wait to get them hooked up. I'll add a further update on sound once they are up and running and have a little time to break in. Thanks again.

dean_martin
02-23-2010, 12:25 PM
I just wanted to thank everyone who responded and provided me with an education. I just thought I would say that I pulled the trigger on the Silverline Minuets. They are shipping out today. Now I can't wait to get them hooked up. I'll add a further update on sound once they are up and running and have a little time to break in. Thanks again.

Congrats! Looking forward to your comments on these speakers. Post pics for drooling.

Jack in Wilmington
02-23-2010, 05:49 PM
I guess you figured that when nobody responded to your post on the 7th, after it looked like to all of us that you were leaning toward the Polks, we were pulling for the Minuets. I think you made the wise choice. I'm sure all of us here have let money dictate our purchases from time to time, and usually all you wind up with is buyers remorse. Here's to many years of enjoyment.

MntnMan62
03-02-2010, 08:56 AM
This is just a follow up. I recieved the Minuets at my front door yesterday and was as excited as a kid on Xmas/Chanukah as I opened up the box after coming home from work. My first reaction was "man these things are small". It turns out that looks can be deceiving. I immediately hooked them up and spent the rest of the evening going through my collection listening to my favorite stuff. That spanned a whole range from Brecker/Hancock/Hargrone - New Directions (Naima), Zappa - Overnight Sensation, Tubes - Tip of My Tongue, Was (Not Was) - Mr. Alice, Hello Operator, Return to Forever - RTF Returns, Earth Wind & Fire - Live in Tokyo, Steely Dan - Aja, George Duke - Illusions.....and the list goes on. I have to say the reviews I have read are right on. They have a clear, clean and full sound. Vocals are especially clear and vibrant. Mid range is excellent. I found that the tonal qualities of many of the tom-toms on drum tracks is incredible. I've never heard that before on my Paradigms or Cambridge Soundworks. My room conditions are less than ideal, but even so, these little speakers filled my basement with sound. I am going easy on them for the first 50 to 100 hours to give them a chance to break in. They sound fantastic with my Harman Kardon HK 3490 along with a Polk PSW10 sub. Now all I can do is think about getting home to listen to more music. I highly recommend them to anyone with limited space issues or a need for a pair of bookshelf speakers. You will not be disappointed. :D