Why Mess With A Turntable?

[gillsev]

In this age of instant gratification and convenience, why are still some of us going the extra mile to play a record, when you can just pop in a CD and forget it. Why mess with the cleaning of vinyl and tolerate clicks and pops when you can get the "perfect" sound with full dynamic range from digital?

Sure, if it was just convenience I am after (besides the "cleaner" sound), I will choose digital - no question. But I think that is besides the point to my enjoyment. For me personally, listening is just 70% of my enjoyment. The other 30% goes to seeing. When I observe my turntable, I like watching my record against a massive platter (as it builds momentum) and maintaining its inertia on this dynamically balanced flywheel. The tonearm that does the "real job" of extracting the music from its fine grooves is like a fine musical instrument just as a bow would extract a note from strings.

The automatic function would just be a bonus, but not really equivalent to my initial appreciation mentioned above. I do however use my Garrard Lab 80 more than my manual FrankenThorens for nostalgic reasons.

A record player is a work of art that you can appreciate visually while listening to music.
Here is my FrankenThorens as my backup TT (with Rega RB300 tonearm) sporting a Red 2M Ortofon ...

[Mr Peabody]

I would have thought the Thorens to have superior sound quality, is that not the case.

For me, I started with vinyl before anyone could imagine CD, so I'm used to it. There are things in my collection that never came to CD. My collection was already good sized and I couldn't see replacing everything. With that said I did come to a cross road where I asked myself if I wanted to continue keeping this collection and continue with a turntable. This came about when I began to add what I'd call true high end stereo gear to my system and my old Pioneer TT became a weak link. I had already gotten rid of my tuner. After borrowing a Rega turntable and just being blown away that vinyl could sound that good I decided to continue with my LP's and sunk money into a decent turntable rig. I am not going to debate which is better, CD/TT, I like them both. Like you if I'm tired I will throw on a CD for convenience but if I have the time and energy I will spin some of the black platters. If I had known vinyl could sound this good back in the 80's when the CD came about I sure wouldn't have jumped on the band wagon so soon. The discontinuing of new releases on vinyl would have forced it eventually though.

The turntable does have a nastalgia and art form to it, doesn't it? :)

[poppachubby]

Why mess with the cleaning of vinyl and tolerate clicks and pops when you can get the "perfect" sound with full dynamic range from digital?

You would be incorrect in this statement. Classical and jazz tend to have great dynamic range on CD. However, popular music has been degenerating for years now. Dynamic range has been decreasing over the years in what is now known as the "Loudness War".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Metallica's latest release, Death Magnetic is supposed to be the most compressed album ever released. There's virtually no range whatsoever. Frightening.

What's really scary is the re-mastering of classics which already contain great range. They will compress them into a rangeless mess. I can speak from experience on this from a vast number of titles, but there was one that really stood out recently. Supertramp's "Crime of the Century" has been RM'd twice, and in it's current form sounds awful. I have an original pressing and the difference is staggering. Considering that this is (was?) an excellent recording with fantastic range which lended to the mood of the LP, they have done fans a HUGE disservice.

This topic is enough for me to lean on vinyl as my main medium. I can rip an original LP into my computer, and turn it into a lossless file. Another thing I do, is run a TT into my soundcard and process it into 24/96. Speaking from the point of view of the compression subject, it's a wonderful alternative to a CD.

Compression exists on vinyl as well, however, they can only get away with a limited amount due to the physical makeup of a record and its grooves.

Your Thorens is a great table and the 2M must sound brilliant with it. My next big upgrade will be a table and I have been giving much consideration to the Thorens TD-160.
Must give the garrard a run for it's money.

Anyhow, I'll finish by saying that yes indeed, vinyl vs CD is a preference. I have the full gambit of digital ability. My CDP mostly rests but my soundcard is an integral part of my system, I listen to it daily. You may want to consider the combination of TT into a soundcard for more than just ripping.

Great post gilllsev!

[Hairsonfire]

No, wait, that's climbing mountains. I have always wanted one and recently purchased the Music Hall MMF 9.1 and a Jolida JD9 phono stage and told myself that if I was not thrilled I would return it within the seven days for a refund. Well, I am thrilled. I still have some listening to do but I must say that I very much enjoy the entire tactile as well as audiophile experience. It is a work of art as well as engineering which appeals to both sides of my noodle. Not only that but it feels, in some way, refreshing to take a step back when listening to music required some thought, planning and effort, as opposed to the fast food version of listening we see so much of nowadays - nonstop earbud wearing.

[Auricauricle]

Man, if you have to fret about the "inconveniences" of using a TT, you just shouldn't be here...!

[gillsev]

Man, if you have to fret about the "inconveniences" of using a TT, you just shouldn't be here...!

Huh...?

[gillsev]

Ahhh ... I'd probably sell my FrankenThorens one of these days and get me my ultimate dream Thorens which is nothing but the TD 124 (with SME 3009). I've always wanted one of this. Maybe a couple more years, I will join the cult.

THE CULT

There are quite a few proud owners of the legendary TD 124 turntable. The reasons why they own this turntable, designed and manufactured with the legendary Swiss precision, are manyfold.
Some have acquired this model because they have become analog addicts and choose for a reproduction of the legendary records and want to use one of the best machines available in the era of Decca SXLs, Deutsche Grammophon Gesellschaft SLPEMs Red Stereos, RCAs LSC shaded dogs, Philips HiFi-Stereos, SAXs, HMV ASDs and American Columbia 6 eye labels. The aim of these music lovers is achieving a sound reproduction in style.
Then there are the collectors of vintage audio equipment and no collection is complete without a TD-124.

[02audionoob]

I used to have an arm like that. It joined the cult of the eBay.

[gillsev]

Now on the market ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220548832954

So I can get that TD 124 !!!

[poppachubby]

Great deal with all of the tweaks too. Good luck Gillsev but I doubt you'll need it. Keep me posted on your Thorens hunt please.

[gillsev]

Great deal with all of the tweaks too. Good luck Gillsev but I doubt you'll need it. Keep me posted on your Thorens hunt please.

I will Pops! I REALLY want that TD124 man! I'm a vintage kinda guy, you know :)

(I already got 109 watchers on my TT)

[poppachubby]

I will Pops! I REALLY want that TD124 man! I'm a vintage kinda guy, you know :)

(I already got 109 watchers on my TT)

LOL I'm one of them. I think alot of people will want to see the outcome. Should get a nice price with everything included. Wish I had the funds, but a new TT isn't in the stars for a while yet. I guess that'll make it that much sweeter.

The TD 124 while legendary. isn't my favorite Thorens. I much prefer what you are selling, a tweaked out 160.

BTW, check out this link I found. Maybe you've already seen it...http://www.theanalogdept.com/garrard_gallery.htm If not enjoy!!

[v rod]

poppa u are right,ther's just something about playing albums.u either get it or u dont.my humble technics tt brings hours of enjoyment!

[gillsev]

BTW, check out this link I found. Maybe you've already seen it...http://www.theanalogdept.com/garrard_gallery.htm If not enjoy!!

Yeah I've seen Steve Clarke's website on Thorens (analogdept.com). Pretty extensive! Thanks though :)
Here is another one ... but on the TD 124 (& other interesting topics) ...

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/td124page.html

[gillsev]

Hey Pops, I think I'll back out on selling my TD 320. I might pull it off the Bay by Friday. I was just thinking that I might not be able to get the kind of money that I want for it. If only I could get at least $1K, I might go for it (as that would be the exact cost to get my TD 124). But I really doubt it would even go near that figure.

Come to think of it, the TD 320 is an outstanding Thorens. If compared to today's Thorens equivalent, it would now be called the TD 350 (with the same suspended subchassis design). And the cost of that model today is QUADRUPLE!!!!

http://www.needledoctor.com/Thorens-TD-350-Turntable?sc=2&category=355

And all I'm asking for mine is a thousand. Anything below that is just giving it away (after all the tweaks and additional accessories that will come with it).
Heck, I'll just keep it.

As for the TD 124 ... it can wait. No sense in rushing into it by giving away the TD 320. Boy, that would be the most stupid mistake!

[poppachubby]

Ya, good idea. It's a shame about items like that, you can never get what they're worth in dollars. A buddy of mine just went through the motions with a wonderful pair of KEF speakers, only to realise he would have to keep them.

I will be sitting on my TT's for another year realistically. The next purchase will hopefully be the last.

[dean_martin]

yeah, those of us with poor eyesight need a 12"x12" cover rather than a cd-sized piece of paper. Can you imagine trying to look at the cover below on anything other than a vinyl jacket?

[L3VY]

gillsev I think that if you would have good rest of the stereo system then you will realise that LP's from 60's, 70's, 80's even 90' play better than on CD.
When I listen to those I feel the heart that artist put to their play. On CD it's no so much of music, it's more like separate sounds.

[gillsev]

Ya, good idea. It's a shame about items like that, you can never get what they're worth in dollars. A buddy of mine just went through the motions with a wonderful pair of KEF speakers, only to realise he would have to keep them.

I will be sitting on my TT's for another year realistically. The next purchase will hopefully be the last.

"Take Two" Pops!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220551842352&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

[hifitommy]

oh poppa,

" The next purchase will hopefully be the last."

i really dont THINK so. ones thinking changes over the course of years. once you get what you think you want, something changes your mind. i am happy with my sota but would love to try a basis tt with basis arm. or a walker proscenium or rockport sirius.

of course those choices are budget indicate and/or limited/enabled. there is always another tier.

that also goes for cartridges. the one i would most be interested in hearing in my system is the A90. $4200 list price. juki in hong kong would likely give a better price but still not in my reach at present.

of course the system would need to keep up with that level. if you can afford those things, then the system will follow along.

just some sage advice from your uncle tommy.

[poppachubby]

I know Tommy...it was a little too bold of a statement. What I really meant to say is, I want something that I can live happily with.

[poppachubby]

"Take Two" Pops!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220551842352&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

This will be interesting. Does it come with a midget?

[gillsev]

Oooooh I am VERY tempted to Buy It Now! PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180467217046&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[Auricauricle]

I see that my answer to this question went over like a lead zeppelin....Ah, well....

What I was joking about (heh heh) is the point that it seems that setting up turntables, biasing amplifiers and other matters that we attend to in pusuance of our hobby take time and effort. At the risk of sounding pedantic, I consider such inconveniences part of the audiophile experience--looking for easy fixes and ruing and stewing over things like setting up a cartridge, I mean come on!

In a nutshell, I agree with you 100%, gill!

[eastcoaster]

i just got a turntable with a usb input on it so i can digitally download and remaster all my albums onto my pc..thats why i own a turntable. i also have a 16 year old duo.there's just a kind of sound you get from a turntable that grows on you that kids these days just wouldn't understand

[Wife-hates-my-hobby]

How I do miss a quality TT, my best was a JVC QL-Y77F..Looking back over the years and some of the stuff I got rid of. Damn women......There is no better sound than that of a LP in good shape being played on a good TT...

[02audionoob]

How I do miss a quality TT, my best was a JVC QL-Y77F..Looking back over the years and some of the stuff I got rid of. Damn women......There is no better sound than that of a LP in good shape being played on a good TT...

Get yourself a Technics direct-drive linear tracker off Craigslist or eBay, order a P-mount cartridge (http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/P-Mount-Cartridges)and phono preamp (http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Phono-Preamps;jsessionid=0a0101441f43ccf79ef945484bffb8c 49c9caae6fef4.e3eSc3uNaNuTe34Pa38Ta38Raxb0) online and you're back in business.

[hifitommy]

get a pivoted arm technics, they are made better. pmount or not. i will look to see if i have an old technics pmount tt at home, i just might.

the linears that technics made were like close-n-play plastic tables, not very good.

[02audionoob]

I would definitely not accept the contention that the Technics SL-7 linear tracker is not a good turntable. Reliable. Easy to pack for shipping. Built solid. Convenience of automatic functions. Discrete looks for maximum WAF. A simple and convenient way to ease vinyl back into action.

[hifitommy]

good to start with that. maybe as a second tt for experimentation. i just like a table that i can see the arm on when the cover is up. and a pivoted arm, pmount or universal mount will give the user a chance to easily swap cartridges for either different sound or capability.

if i had one to play with, i might be more amenable to the recommendation. it seems to take a lot away from the conventional approach to using a tt. it looks fine in the pics i saw online, just the actual functionality approach is foreign to me.

[02audionoob]

Part of the issue with vinyl for many people is largely a matter of convenience. It doesn't get much more convenient than an SL-7. To simply get something nice to play records, my approach would likely be opposite of yours. I wouldn't want to start by experimenting with different cartridges. I'd want to get a decent P-mount, insert it and be done. Plus, this is a player that doesn't take over a living room, aesthetically.

And if you doubt the sound quality...I bet you'd be amazed, considering people practically give these things away.

[hifitommy]

CD is for that. the record and stylus must be cleaned before each play for them to last and not become noisy. many people went away from vinyl because of the ticks and pops, and some cant tolerate that.

as far as the cartridge swapping, fixed headshell tonearms also discourage that physically. i sold off a very highly rated tt/arm combo just to be able to swap carts easily. that was a vpi hw19III/sme IV combo that sounded heavenly but i replaced it with a sota sapphire/mmt so i could be more versatile.

[02audionoob]

I sometimes regret not having a removable headshell, too. Once I get my Eroica set on my MMF-5, I don't like to have to move it...no matter how bad I want to try a different cartridge.

[gillsev]

Finally sold it for a compromise ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220557012047&ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT

Now I got money to get my TD124.

Woohoo!!!

[poppachubby]

WOW!! Well done Gills!! Hardly a compromise, that's a great price. Keep us posted on your TD124. BTW, have a look at my Realistic post in the analog room. I was thinking of you when I posted as this table has a solid wood base and overall reminds me of a poor man's Thorens.

[gillsev]

I am buying separates to totally build it to my own specs ...

I managed to convince a guy from Audiogon to sell it to me for $850 (he agreed) ...
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3627/td124d.jpg

Then I got some fresh mushrooms for it, plus an SME 3009 Series II (Improved) with upgraded Cardas wiring for a total of $400 ...
http://www.smetonearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=74

And finally for the cartridge, a Shure M95ED for $50.00
http://pic4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1265471613.jpg

They are now en route to my place now as we speak.
I'll be assembling them probably next week.

[poppachubby]

I am buying separates to totally build it to my own specs ...

I managed to convince a guy from Audiogon to sell it to me for $850 (he agreed) ...
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3627/td124d.jpg

Then I got some fresh mushrooms for it, plus an SME 3009 Series II (Improved) with upgraded Cardas wiring for a total of $400 ...
http://www.smetonearms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=74

And finally for the cartridge, a Shure M95ED for $50.00
http://pic4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1265471613.jpg

They are now en route to my place now as we speak.
I'll be assembling them probably next week.

I'm so envious. I love it when someone hits their goal dead on. Congrats! You sure you don't want some Bose somewhere in the chain?:nono: hahahaha.

Can't wait to see the pics!

[gillsev]

You sure you don't want some Bose somewhere in the chain?:nono: hahahaha.

Hahaha! But I ain't got no choice on that. Look at my space! 901's on top :)

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/397/afterb.jpg

[gillsev]

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=285780

[poppachubby]

Wow. Great stuff Gills, it will be worth the effort as you well know. I'm sure between that and the Gerrard your TT shopping days are over. Lucky you...

[gillsev]

Wow. Great stuff Gills, it will be worth the effort as you well know. I'm sure between that and the Gerrard your TT shopping days are over. Lucky you...

Yep, that's it for me! :)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

You would be incorrect in this statement. Classical and jazz tend to have great dynamic range on CD. However, popular music has been degenerating for years now. Dynamic range has been decreasing over the years in what is now known as the "Loudness War".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Poppa, I wouldn't confuse poor mastering habits with the dynamic range of the format itself. CD has far greater dynamic range capabilities than vinyl does, it just that marketing bean heads like louder better than quality.


Metallica's latest release, Death Magnetic is supposed to be the most compressed album ever released. There's virtually no range whatsoever. Frightening.

What's really scary is the re-mastering of classics which already contain great range. They will compress them into a rangeless mess. I can speak from experience on this from a vast number of titles, but there was one that really stood out recently. Supertramp's "Crime of the Century" has been RM'd twice, and in it's current form sounds awful. I have an original pressing and the difference is staggering. Considering that this is (was?) an excellent recording with fantastic range which lended to the mood of the LP, they have done fans a HUGE disservice.

This is what happens when your format gets used as a playback source for radio. Once again, this is a marketing decision, not a limitation of the format itself.



Anyhow, I'll finish by saying that yes indeed, vinyl vs CD is a preference. I have the full gambit of digital ability. My CDP mostly rests but my soundcard is an integral part of my system, I listen to it daily. You may want to consider the combination of TT into a soundcard for more than just ripping.

Great post gilllsev!

I wish I had the love for vinyl that some of you guys have. I guess I have access to so much high quality digital audio gear that sounds so good, the hassles of vinyl are just not appealing to me.

[poppachubby]

Thanks for the input Sir T, informative as always. I wouldn't say that I disregard CD as a crumby format altogether. I hear it's great potential alot more recently. I bought an old school CDP with TDA1543 and Philips CDM4/19 laser. Really nice sound with the right disc.

Vinyl has it's share of crumby pressings, so it's far from perfect. Nothing more dissapointing then finding that great album that you love, to find out it sound like chit once on the deck.

[gillsev]

[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible
I wish I had the love for vinyl that some of you guys have. I guess I have access to so much high quality digital audio gear that sounds so good, the hassles of vinyl are just not appealing to me.[/QUOTE]

The love for vinyl is beyond sound. It is a mixture of nostalgia, sentimentality, and art appreciation combined that makes a stronger appeal for the vinyl enthusiast. Observing a turntable at play is an awesome experience. To watch the stylus hit the groove mounted on a finely crafted tonearm is hypnotic to say the least. Every time a record is played, it sounds a bit different from the previous audition. It has soul in it. The ritual in cleaning/ brushing the record before play makes it all the more worthwhile as it heightens the expectation as if a true priviledge earned for the music so well deserving to be heard.

None of these experiences are available on CD's. You just press play and forget it. And they all sound the same every time. Uniformity.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

The love for vinyl is beyond sound. It is a mixture of nostalgia, sentimentality, and art appreciation combined that makes a stronger appeal for the vinyl enthusiast. Observing a turntable at play is an awesome experience. To watch the stylus hit the groove mounted on a finely crafted tonearm is hypnotic to say the least. Every time a record is played, it sounds a bit different from the previous audition. It has soul in it. The ritual in cleaning/ brushing the record before play makes it all the more worthwhile as it heightens the expectation as if a true priviledge earned for the music so well deserving to be heard.

None of these experiences are available on CD's. You just press play and forget it. And they all sound the same every time. Uniformity.

I guess your last sentence is exactly why I like CD - consistency. I guess I like the fact that a good CD will sound good every time I play it. The idea that a recording will sound different to me each day makes my listening experience a floating target.

I guess I always thought the soul was in the artists playing or singing, not in the reproduction process. I usually clean my CD's before loading them, but does not evoke any emotional response from me doing the process. I guess I am more attached to the performance than to the disc.

[02audionoob]

One reason I like vinyl is just the vast supply of it. It's fun to go to the 2nd-hand books/records store and find a jewel for a buck or two, take it home and give it a spin. That's how I've discovered a huge part of the music I listen to. To me, it's the music on the records more than the turntable or the records themselves.

[hifitommy]

vinyl not only sounds more organic and has more JUMP factor than digital, i does allow you to try a LOT more for less. mostly, used CDs are at least 4 bucks, usually 6-9 bucks.

i do find them for less and some good ones too but there seems to be SO much more available for less in the LP piles.

another thing is that when you hear vinyl on different cartridges, it sounds different but still very right in the overwhelming majority of the time. and when your playback system decodes an extremely complex passage with utmost clarity and detail, you can marvel at its physical prowess.

[poppachubby]

I feel both ways. The music is the catalyst, no doubt. But to chime in on Gills comments, I do enjoy all the other aspects of the analog experience.

For me, it's that wonderful sense of pride. When you hear a recording coming out of your system with the utmost sweetness, it's proof positive that all your efforts have combined synergistically, to create this amazingly natural sound.

Probably about a year ago, we were at a party and the host had a vintage Technics TT. I asked him to throw on a record, and it was the most horrendous sound ever. I looked at him for a reaction, and he was loving it. When I looked closer, the LP was filthy as was the table. The cartridge was most certainly not aligned correctly. Also, he had a really bad hum from vibration caused by the speakers.

Point is, when I got back home, the difference was like listening to a $20K reference system. This moment really fueled my passion for analog, and the labour required for a great sound.

[scrivens]

yeah, those of us with poor eyesight need a 12"x12" cover rather than a cd-sized piece of paper. Can you imagine trying to look at the cover below on anything other than a vinyl jacket?

I collect a lot of opera LP's from the 50's and 60's...It is a pleasure to be able to read the libretto without resorting to a magnifying glass.

[scrivens]

Poppa, I wouldn't confuse poor mastering habits with the dynamic range of the format itself. CD has far greater dynamic range capabilities than vinyl does, it just that marketing bean heads like louder better than quality.



.

A digital representation of an analogue source e.g. Music! cannot possibly have a wider dynamic range than the analogue FACT

If you could have a CD player with infinite WORD length & infinite OVER-SAMPLING of an infinite number of tracks you would have the Analogue of the source. This is why DDD stands for the 3-stages of degradation

Vinyl has much greater dynamic headroom than CD

an example from VDU's :-
a vector-scanning monitor can draw a straight line from A to B on the diagonal, whereas a normal raster monitor has to run a huge-recursive algorhythm to produce a step-like approximation.

A similar situation occurs when trying to represent wave-forms e.g. music in digital media...the player has to over-sample , run huge algorhythms and then convert its out put back to analogue.

A record player just produces an analogue of the analogue. In other words the value of the product is not wasted doing un-musical computing.

Sorry mate its just Physics

If you are representing discrete information Digital is fine, but for continuous information, analogue is better..this is why we still use oscilloscopes

[gillsev]

My project is finally done ... so let's play it! (Forgive the slight distortion, as it is the limitation of my camera's mic to capture it) Sounds much better in actual location.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9SBsATIqnE

[poppachubby]

Congrats Gill!!! I always love seeing somebody go through all the motions, and then actually reach that day when they see it through. Funny enough, the SQ of your system is detectable through YouTube...must sound like a dream to be in the room with it. The Garrard, the Thorens and you all need to sit down and work out a schedule.

[02audionoob]

Gillsev...You rock! I wish we had the I'm-not-worthy smiley here. You deserve one.

[Reticuli]

Because 16/44.1 is like what aborigines say about getting their picture taken: it steals a piece of the music's soul away. If digital media was all uncompressed 16/48 (preferably 20/48) or higher, we'd be pretty content and vinyl would have died a long time ago. Perfect Sound Forever, my arse.

[JoeE SP9]

If 16/44 digital media wasn't compressed we'd all be happier. Check out any JVC K2 recording.

[jrhymeammo]

My project is finally done ... so let's play it! (Forgive the slight distortion, as it is the limitation of my camera's mic to capture it) Sounds much better in actual location.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9SBsATIqnE


Nice!! I've been tempted by Thorens recently.
I had placed an order for TD160 Super last night, but I had decided to cancel 5 minutes later...

JRA

[atomicAdam]

Nice!! I've been tempted by Thorens recently.
I had placed an order for TD160 Super last night, but I had decided to cancel 5 minutes later...

JRA

WOW - bet that would have sounded nice though.....

[jrhymeammo]

WOW - bet that would have sounded nice though.....

Yeah I know.
I was going to get this.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1276012950

He can sell this for $600 without the arm with REGA arm board.
I'm still thinking about it, but I need to save for another project.