Japanese Audio???

[dvjorge]

Hello everyone,

I am glad of having all you here because this is the best guide to be HI-FI. I always see many threads about european and american brands. What happen with the Japaneses?? They don't know how to make hi-end components. What about Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Denon, Luxman, Sony ES, Onkyo Integra, Yamaha, ...They even don't know how to make a hi-end cd player...I mean top of the line models.. The japanese sound isn't good????? For this reason, I left a Denon power amp POA 2200 in the goodwill . It was $20.00

Thanks.

[JohnMichael]

Hello everyone,

I am glad of having all you here because this is the best guide to be HI-FI. I always see many threads about european and american brands. What happen with the Japaneses?? They don't know how to make hi-end components. What about Pioneer Elite, Marantz, Denon, Luxman, Sony ES, Onkyo Integra, Yamaha, ...They even don't know how to make a hi-end cd player...I mean top of the line models.. The japanese sound isn't good????? For this reason, I left a Denon power amp POA 2200 in the goodwill . It was $20.00

Thanks.


The brands you mention all have or have had excellent high end components along with affordable ones. I own the Marantz SA 8001 cd/sacd player which I find to be incredible for the price. I also own a lower cost Marnatz CD5001 which was a great bargain along with a Sony cd recorder. I was considering a Luxman integrated amp for all the incredible reviews I had read. There are many Japanese brands that are worthy of respect. The Esoteric cd players and speakers are examples of high end products. I heard a Sony ES speaker at one time that was incredible and out of my price range. Many a great phono cartridge has come from Japan.

[dvjorge]

I own an Integrated Amplifier and a Receiver from what I believe is the best japanese sound ever. It is sad they went out...I respect this company and see how many people still do today. It was compared to Mc Intosch, and some say better than it. SANSUI.. the AU-X1 and TU -X1 are dream components. Probably between the 10 best ever made in its class.

[dakatabg]

The older the better!

[Mr Peabody]

Out of all the stuff you mentioned I am the most impressed with Sansui. After owning an AU-9500 that blew me away with it's performance. Not only did it sound great it was built. The knobs and switches were tight and firm like a piece of test equipment. And, I had that the past couple years, it was built in the early 70's and still tight and right.

I sure wouldn't have left a Denon amp for $20.00. Denon had a set of monoblocks that were like $20k. I haven't heard them but in that ultra price will they compete with the likes of Krell?

Some decent gear came out of Japan but not to the quality and extent of brands like Krell, ARC, Conrad Johnson, Linn, Naim, and the like. Well.... as JM mentioned there is Esoteric so I can't make a complete blanket statement. And, there is the Marantz Reference but I'm not sure technically were that's from.

[dakatabg]

dvjorge, you are not the first guy I hear that says the Japanese electronics are not good. Maybe the new stuff they make those days, some of them are really not good, however the stuff before 1990 is pretty good! I would never give away a Denon POA 2200, that is a pretty sick amplifier.

[dvjorge]

Mr P. Yes, this is the second time I agree with you. The first one was about the Rotel's sound. I love Sansui and I would like to own an AU-X1 or TU-X1, the AU-919 is another beast. I like to read discussions in Audiokarma.org about Sansui vs Mc Intosch. There are some people who own both and give all credits to Sansui. Sansui made more than one very hi-end gear. The old sansui sound is better than the rest of the japanese brands. Amplifiers, tuners, and turntables were their best. You see how high Sansui staff go in ebay...I believe Sansui's top of the line receiver sold for $8000.00 some time ago.

[Mr Peabody]

$8k!? I should have kept my amp and put it on there :)

[RGA]

This Japanese amp company made amplifiers that aided some of the best sound at CES. The owner was quite a nice fellow - not too much English but he was quite a gracious fellow and more importantly his amps look beautiful are sanely priced and sound wonderful.

http://www.vacuumtube.com/trijapan.htm

[harley .guy07]

This Japanese amp company made amplifiers that aided some of the best sound at CES. The owner was quite a nice fellow - not too much English but he was quite a gracious fellow and more importantly his amps look beautiful are sanely priced and sound wonderful.

http://www.vacuumtube.com/trijapan.htm

Never heard of them but they do look good. And they look like they are built well. I think a lot of people have got used to hearing people talk about japanese products sounding bright and sterile with know life to it but I believe there are some stuff out there that does brake that stereotype but it does not help with companies like Yamaha going mainstream and selling out their quality to sell at Best buy. I used to like Yamaha back in the 90's when I sold them and they were a well built unit for the price but in the last few years they have went downhill in a big way and I might use my Yamaha for home theater but As soom as my bikes custom paint gets done and I pay for it the next thing I am going to do is start upgrading the front end of my system with a preamp and Dac. Possibly a tube preamp not sure yet I have seen some Audio Research units of the gon that are catching my eye and I have heard that their tube preamps work well with Adcom amps.

[blackraven]

I would be more than happy to own any of this Marantz Reference Series gear as a high end audiophile system- http://us.marantz.com/Products/616.asp

[harley .guy07]

I would be more than happy to own any of this Marantz Reference Series gear as a high end audiophile system- http://us.marantz.com/Products/616.asp

That is something that you won't see companies from other countries do very often. Marrantz has products from the entry level all the way to the high end and so does Denon. Most of your British, German,or American companies sell products in the entry level or the high end not both. I personally think this turns some of the high end guys off because they want to run products that are made by companies that when people see them they know that they are not garden variety pieces of equipment and that gives them a much more exotic appeal. There is a lot of people out there that aren't audiophiles that have heard of Denon or Marrantz but there aren't very many non audiophiles that has heard of Boulder,Pass,Krell or many others. I am not saying one is better than the other but I will say that the wealthier high end guy treats his high end audio like he does his cars. He would rather drive a Ferrari that only a few people have in the world that is totally exotic and rare than to drive a car from honda that is just as fast and performs as well because the Ferrari has more exotic appeal because most general people have not seen one and only the big time car guys know about them. Its the same thing with high end audio. Most guys of wealth would rather have a product that nobody has heard about unless you are a hard core high end audiophile than a product just as good with a known label on it because its not as mysterious and does not inspire as much attention to itself.

[frahengeo]

... Marrantz has products from the entry level all the way to the high end and so does Denon. Most of your British, German,or American companies sell products in the entry level or the high end not both. I personally think this turns some of the high end guys off because they want to run products that are made by companies that when people see them they know that they are not garden variety pieces of equipment and that gives them a much more exotic appeal...

Well...I'm sure there is some "bragging rights" or "exclusivity" factor associated with it. But the likes of Krell, Levinson, McIntosh do sound really good.

Did someone say that the Japanese cannot make high end? I don't know about that one:

I know that looks aren't everything, but I bet it sounds "okay".

On the Pre-Amp, the power section has been separated to reduce any potential noise factors.
6609

6610

(Images were taken from someone's old auction - hope I'm not violating anything here)

[blackraven]

I think that the Marantz reference series holds its own with equipment in the the same price bracket and higher. Marantz has a unique sound to their equipment leaning towards the warmer or more analog sound. Their high end Cd/SACD players can compete with the best of them. The reference series also has that high end look. I would love to own an all reference series system.

[Auricauricle]

Anybody who denigrates Japanese products (audio) outright either is ignorant or a fool. The Japanese are a very educated and informed people and much of the gear they have produced in quite, quite good. While consumer-oriented products seem to get the most exposure, even a cursory glance through high-end journals is enough to show you that their forays into high end is mighty impressive.

Many folks I met and knew there know music and many ardent audiophiles spend huge amounts of time in salons in Tokyo and other cities, auditioning gear. I think many of us can take a page out of their book, in just listening to music and making decisions about what we hear versus all the clicks, whistles and other BS.

[Ajani]

I think a lot of people have got used to hearing people talk about japanese products sounding bright and sterile with know life to it but I believe there are some stuff out there that does brake that stereotype but it does not help with companies like Yamaha going mainstream and selling out their quality to sell at Best buy. I used to like Yamaha back in the 90's when I sold them and they were a well built unit for the price but in the last few years they have went downhill in a big way

Something to keep in mind about companies like Yamaha and Denon is that despite their bad rep in North America (mainly because of selling HT Receivers at Best Buy), they have some high quality, award winning, 2 channel gear that is only availaible in Europe and Japan...

I think part of the problem (as mentioned in another post) is snob appeal... Why pay $2.5K for a Marantz Integrated Amp (considering that your neighbour, who knows squat about audio, has a Marantz Receiver) when you could get a Krell Integrated for the same money???

[RGA]

For what it's worth - Kondo-san was Japanese and started Audio Note - which has become arguably the best tube amp manufacturer in the audio business - or at the very least there is no one better.

Technical Brain is Japanese and having heard them - I can't think of a better SS amplifier that I think is any better - perhaps as good but...

So both in SS and tube - they're as good as it gets. In the budget arena Tri was probably as good as it gets - at least would hold their own at anything in the price class.

And Sony put out $25,000 loudspeakers at CES - and while not everyone agreed - I think that because it's "Sony" they didn't get the credit they deserved. They were tremendous loudspeakers on a lot of fronts and Ray Kimber stated that he has not heard a better loudspeaker by anyone for $25,000. I would not go that far but it was a tremendous demonstration and I could see a lot of people spending their $25k on those loudspeakers (which are not on the market yet apperently).

While not Japanese - South Korea has a HUGE passion for audio gear - and the Silbatone company run by billionaires auto and oil guys run it for the fun of it and made a tremendous single driver horn speaker with a Manger driver - and a silver wired transformer 300b (remind you of anyone) and it was one of the very best systems I've heard - tough really to find fault - at least with the music played - next time I go I have some music that will put stuff to an insane test.

[blackraven]

RGA, thats a pretty bold statement about AN being the best tube amp manufacturer. I must admit that I have never heard a AN piece of equipment but what do you have to back that up, just for my own curiosity. I'm not arguing or disputing the fact but I would like some info relating to your claim.

[Ajani]

RGA, thats a pretty bold statement about AN being the best tube amp manufacturer. I must admit that I have never heard a AN piece of equipment but what do you have to back that up, just for my own curiosity. I'm not arguing or disputing the fact but I would like some info relating to your claim.

He likes AN better than all other brands... What more backup does he need?

:shocked:

As I've said before (more eloquently though) the more outrageous claims you make, the less people regard your opinion... Especially considering how subjective this hobby is...

[bluetrain]

I'm not arguing or disputing the fact but I would like some info relating to your claim.

Wow! What a thread. We found out that "Japaneses don't know how to make hi-end components", and now you're asking for some info backing RGA's subjective opinion?
Are you guys for real?

P.S. And yes, Audio Note sounds terrific.

[blackraven]

Thats why I will never say one piece of equipment is the best because its all subjective with little or no objectivity. One mans garbage is another mans treasure!

[Mr Peabody]

So true, it's subjective. It would be interesting to hear if Sony's $25k speaker even came close to the Dynaudio Sapphire at $16k.

Marantz might get some respect when their $2500.00 integrated performs like a Krell. I didn't say sounds like, I said performs like. If you don't know the difference then you shouldn't argue the point.

I heard it said by some that Conrad Johnson's Art series was some of the best in the world.

Japanese gear will get respect when they provide this type of performance along with the price tag they stick on it.

Those of you who are defending the Japanese, let's see your Japanese gear list. Let's say other than what you bought from mass market/department stores.

I guess I could start, I actually have a Marantz A/V preamp and I have to admit it's good for $2500.00. I don't use a lot of the features but it doesn't have much comp at the price.

[blackraven]

If I could afford it I would definitely own the Marantz Reference SA-7S1 SACDP for $7K as well as a pair of the $8K MA 9S2 monoblocks!

[Mr Peabody]

I would be open minded to the Marantz but if I won the lottery the CJ tube monoblocks would be on my list. CJ has a hybrid power amp now, the ET250, that would also be interesting to hear. I'm not into SACD, my front end of choice so far would be the T+A $8k player with tube output. Before that kind of lay out of cash, even being rich, I'd certainly do a lot of listening.

[blackraven]

I agree with you Mr. P, If I had the money Marantz may not be the first on my list but I would certainly give them a listen and and strongly consider that SACD player which is no slouch. I would go the high end tube route and look at CJ, Mac and several others. ( I would have to consider McCintosh just on looks alone. Several Mc ampsand preamps stacked together are a beautiful sight.

[dakatabg]

I wish we have more interesting posts like this one! I enjoy reading everyone's opinion!

As long as there is no hate between the ar members, i hope we have more posts like this one :) :) :)

[Ajani]

So true, it's subjective. It would be interesting to hear if Sony's $25k speaker even came close to the Dynaudio Sapphire at $16k.

That would totally depend on who does the listening... A non-Dynaudio Fan might think a $3K speaker smoked the Sapphire... Subjective being the key word...


Marantz might get some respect

Marantz gets lots of respect from both reviews and owners around the world... Their last 2 models of $1K SACD Players and $4.5K power Amp were all Class A Rated in Stereophile, not to mention numerous great reviews and awards in the UK...


when their $2500.00 integrated performs like a Krell. I didn't say sounds like, I said performs like. If you don't know the difference then you shouldn't argue the point.

There's no point throwing down the gauntlet, if you're then going to word it in a manner that leaves persons too confused as to what you actually mean, for them to accept the challenge...


I heard it said by some that Conrad Johnson's Art series was some of the best in the world.

I've heard it said that Audio Note is the best in the world :prrr:


Japanese gear will get respect when they provide this type of performance along with the price tag they stick on it.

They already get lots of respect... Just not by a number of persons in North America (many of whom are audio snobs)...


Those of you who are defending the Japanese, let's see your Japanese gear list. Let's say other than what you bought from mass market/department stores.

My previous setup was all Rotel and Marantz Electronics... which I vastly preferred to the competing British gear from NAD, Cambridge Audio and Arcam...


I guess I could start, I actually have a Marantz A/V preamp and I have to admit it's good for $2500.00. I don't use a lot of the features but it doesn't have much comp at the price.

Maybe you should audition some of Marantz's 2 Channel gear to see if you actually like it as well....

[dvjorge]

That was my intention when I opened this thread. I like CJ and have listening it in hi-fi stores. One of the best, I have listened to is Wilson Audio with VTL pre and amps, and the source was Mark Levinson Cd player. Transparent cables, I believe. Awesome sound.

[blackraven]

I would love to hear Audio Note and CJ, but unfortunately, no one here stocks them. Most of what is here is Mac, Audio Research, Bel Canto, Theta, Classe, Ayre, Esoteric and a few other high end brands.

[RGA]

RGA, thats a pretty bold statement about AN being the best tube amp manufacturer. I must admit that I have never heard a AN piece of equipment but what do you have to back that up, just for my own curiosity. I'm not arguing or disputing the fact but I would like some info relating to your claim.

Before that gets out of hand - I said "arguably the best tube amp manufacturer in the audio business - or at the very least there is no one better."

And let me be very clear - my amp is from Audio Note and it is NOT included in that statement. I am talking strictly about the top of the line models against top of the line models. The Audio Note Ongaku - either the original Kondo version or the newer AN UK version have both been very highly regarded around the world and have managed to last over 20 years at those kinds of prices. The Ongaku is typically the amplifier virtually every competitor makes a comparison to - which illustrates that most of them hold it up to be the "pinnacle" tube amplifier - and it should be when they charge those kinds of prices. Those are the non direct experience with amplifier reasons for me saying "arguably" they're at the top of the field and "there would be nothing really better."

That does not - and I REPEAT - does not mean that everyone is going to agree - not everyone agrees that Citizen Kane is the greatest American film - despite all the experts pointing to it as the pinnacle American film.

With something subjective like this there are numerous factors - but keeping it to tube amps in that power band it's tough to argue against it or the Gaku-On amplifiers. I could make the case for Conrad Johnson's top models or Lamm etc but even here I don't think you could make as convincing a case that they're "better."

Many felt that the Kondo-San Ongaku began the "High End" SET movement in North America and they were first with silver. The UK version is even better and recently covered by Stereophile http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/ongaku_means_ecstasy/

The point though got lost - Japan makes good gear!!

[Mr Peabody]

I didn't realize the "A" in RGA was for Ajani. Never heard you be an Audio Note fan boy before.

I have heard some of the Marantz 2-channel gear just not the reference. I don't like it. You all find it warm, I find it murky and their musicality is more like a receiver than an integrated of quality. Marantz isn't that expensive for their integrated, if they are so good why don't at least one person on the board have one? Seems there are a lot to jump to defend but none of which who puts their money where their mouth is. Stereophile's Class A rating isn't worth the paper it was written on.

By the way, Rotel is not Japanese.

[Ajani]

I didn't realize the "A" in RGA was for Ajani. Never heard you be an Audio Note fan boy before.

:hand: Me??? An Audio Note Fanboy??? hahaha... I'd have to listen to one first... My point was that there are many brands with products regarded as the best in the world... It just depends on who you ask...


I have heard some of the Marantz 2-channel gear just not the reference. I don't like it. You all find it warm, I find it murky and their musicality is more like a receiver than an integrated of quality.

Obviously other persons will have different opinions on the Marantz sound...


Marantz isn't that expensive for their integrated, if they are so good why don't at least one person on the board have one? Seems there are a lot to jump to defend but none of which who puts their money where their mouth is.

It isn't that cheap either... and there are an obscene amount of options between $2K and $3K to choose from... So even if a member really liked the Marantz, he might just find another integrated in that price range that he prefers...


Stereophile's Class A rating isn't worth the paper it was written on.

That's your opinion... maybe I should list all the positive reviews Marantz has got worldwide and see if you regard any of those publications... :biggrin5: better yet... I'll just leave it as is...


By the way, Rotel is not Japanese.

Yes they are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotel

[blackraven]

RGA, I was just havin' some fun yanking your chain! No harm no foul! I know what you mean.:cool:

I would however like to hear some AN gear!

[Mr Peabody]

Well, Rotel could warrant a new thread, what constitutes where a line is from, Wiki says Rotel is a Japanese company yet it's designed in UK and built in China.

[Ajani]

Well, Rotel could warrant a new thread, what constitutes where a line is from, Wiki says Rotel is a Japanese company yet it's designed in UK and built in China.

hehehe... yeah, it gets really difficult determining where a company is from nowadays, with these strange corporate structures...

Rotel's website only makes things less clear:


For those of you who may not be familiar with Rotel, we are a family owned, 46-year-old business, who's success has been earned by devoting our efforts to nothing else but making audio/video products for fanatics like ourselves. Today, our "family" includes an international group of engineers, designers, music and movie enthusiasts, and professional audio business people from many countries including Japan, UK, USA, China and Korea.

http://www.rotel.com/NA/About/WhoWeAre.htm

[RGA]

RGA, I was just havin' some fun yanking your chain! No harm no foul! I know what you mean.:cool:

I would however like to hear some AN gear!

No problem but I often get beat up for speaking up about them. Largely because I want people to audition them long and hard.

On the issue of Marantz - the problem with most companies who sell to the mid-fi market and then bring out upscale gear is that there is a perception that they are mid-fi and very well may get overlooked or viewed as just expensive mid-fi. It also doesn't help that the top gear from those companies is difficult to locate and audition. Sometimes it can be very good and sometimes it really is just expensive mid-fi.

But if a company like Sony or Marantz actually TRIED to make something terrific they have the resources to be able to do it - the trouble is big companies typically TRY to raise profit margins and using expensive high quality parts to sell to a minority of buyers and battle the perception problems isn't really worth it.

Still - some of the big guys do decide to care and they can do it. The Sony speakers at CES IMO were very good which surprised the hell out of me. Pass Labs and EMM Labs and Ray Kimber of Kimber Cable thought enough of them to show with them. And they managed to impress me and I usually despise speakers designed like that - multi-ways with many drivers.

[RoadRunner6]

I think there are a number Japanese audio products that very seldom see the light of day in North America, or at least in your corner hi-fi shop.

There are companies such as Audio Tekne, Zanden Audio, Almarro, and Shindo Laboratory who make high quality products. Even the big names like Sony, Kenwood, etc. make lots of products that are never sent to North America. An example of an Audio Tekne product is the below pictured TEA-9501 dual-mono-block flagship phono stage preamp. Total dual weight 278lbs. Cost, $150,000 US.


http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/chuckienut/tea-9501test.jpg


Down the street from my wife's family shop in Japan is a high end audio shop. Here is a list of their product line (lots of very familiar names).

■AAD ■ELECTRO-VOICE ■ORACLE
■Acustic-Lab ■ESOTERIC ■Ortofon
■AKG ■EAR ■PASS LABS
■avantgarde ACOUSTIC ■FAROUJA ■PMC
■ALPHASON ■FM-ACUSTICS ■PRO-JECT
■ALR/JORDAN ■GOLDMUND ■ROLF KELCH
■ANTHEM ■German Physiks ■SENNHEISER
■ARCAM ■HOVLAND ■SME
■AR ■Hubbel ■SONUS FABER
■ATC ■Infinity ■SPACE & TIME
■AUDIO-QUEST ■IXOS ■SPENDOR
■AVALON ACOUSTIC ■JBL ■Synergistic Research
■AURA DESIGNS ■JBL Pro ■TANNOY
■AYRE ■JEFF ROWLAND DESIGN ■TAOC
■AYRIAL ACOUSTIC ■JM Lab ■THIEL
■B&W ■JORDAN-WATTS ■THORENS
■BELDEN ■KEF JAPAN（メーカー） ■TEAC
■Burmester ■KEF ■TRANSPARENT
■BOSE ■KIMBER CABLES ■UNISON Research
■Bel canto ■KRELL ■Van・Den・Hul
■Birdland Audio ■LEXICON ■VELODYNE
■BRYSTON ■LINN　JAPAN ■VioLa
■CARDAS AUDIO ■Mark Levinson ■WADIA
■CLEARAUDIO ■McINTOSH ■WBT
■CREEK ■MILTY ■WILSON-BENESCH
■CSE ■MIT ■WILSON AUDIO
■Cello ■MONITOR AUDIO ■WATTaGATE
■DALI ■MONSTER ■Westlake Audio
■DIAPASON ■NAGRA
■dCS ■NHT
■ELAC ■NOTTINGHAM

(Did you see the name Bose, there are a few dumb Japanese :D)

[Mr Peabody]

RR6 if that's accurate I doubt if a single U.S. store carry that many lines. It's even rare to see a store carry two similar lines let alone Krell, Bryston, Pass and Levinson.

Before getting into Arcam and Krell etc. my system for many years was a Kenwwood 3300 system which was a higher end line of matching tuner, CDP and integrated amp. The integrated amp had one of the first built in DAC's I had ever seen in an integrated. This was before 5.1. The first fiber optic in/out I had ever seen. It was cutting edge for the time. The amp was 150x2 into 8 ohms and doubled it's power as impedance halved. When I began looking for better gear I got tired of having to explain to people my Kenwood was not the stuff found in mass market stores and even after explaining what it was I got the feeling I totally wasted my time.

[Ajani]

RR6 if that's accurate I doubt if a single U.S. store carry that many lines. It's even rare to see a store carry two similar lines let alone Krell, Bryston, Pass and Levinson.

That actually is pretty typical of some of the Japanese and Hong Kong Hi-Fi stores I've seen (not in person :frown5: - but from some of the review sites when there reviewers go overseas)... It seems to be a common practice to have an extremely wide product range and be able to switch out speaker and electronics combos on the fly... so overseas you'd get to audition a wide range of brands and how they interact before purchasing...

The Hi-Fi market in Asia is supposed to be much stronger than in the west.... It's one of the reasons why I find it hard to imagine that the Japanese don't make good Hi-Fi... They clearly have all the major brands to compete with in their own stores, so they know what quality sounds like.... And as mentioned earlier, a lot of the better Japanese gear never makes its way to the US.


Before getting into Arcam and Krell etc. my system for many years was a Kenwwood 3300 system which was a higher end line of matching tuner, CDP and integrated amp. The integrated amp had one of the first built in DAC's I had ever seen in an integrated. This was before 5.1. The first fiber optic in/out I had ever seen. It was cutting edge for the time. The amp was 150x2 into 8 ohms and doubled it's power as impedance halved. When I began looking for better gear I got tired of having to explain to people my Kenwood was not the stuff found in mass market stores and even after explaining what it was I got the feeling I totally wasted my time.

Yep, that's part of the problem... I'm sure no explanation was required about how a Krell is not available in your mass market store.... And once you get into Hi-Fi circles, once you have a renown brand that only makes expensive products, you gain immediate status among many.... Another option is to own an expensive exotic brand and decry that the more popular ones all pale in comparison.... However, if you own an expensive Denon, Marantz or Yamaha (or even a NAD and Cambridge Audio) you'll not get much respect....

A Luxury Hyundai will never have the Status of a Mercedes or BMW... Even if it performs better than them....

[frahengeo]

Banzai!!!

[harley .guy07]

If I won the lottery I think I would travel around to different shops and peoples houses and search the hell out of every part of my system before buying it and make sure what was THE BEST and I would not be brand loyal because I would not care. What sounded best to me sound best no mater what people said. And I would make sure that there were not any products that were of quality that I did not hear. That would be the good part of winning the lottery. having all the time to do that and having the money to buy it.

[frahengeo]

If I won the lottery I think I would travel around to different shops and peoples houses and search the hell out of every part of my system before buying it and make sure what was THE BEST and I would not be brand loyal because I would not care. What sounded best to me sound best no mater what people said. And I would make sure that there were not any products that were of quality that I did not hear. That would be the good part of winning the lottery. having all the time to do that and having the money to buy it.
Sounds like a great idea (except for the going to people's houses part). I would love to find the time to tour the McIntosh facility in NY. Although the wife would say otherwise...

It is unfortunate, but many of us let "status" dictate our behavior.

[RGA]

If I won the lottery I think I would travel around to different shops and peoples houses and search the hell out of every part of my system before buying it and make sure what was THE BEST and I would not be brand loyal because I would not care. What sounded best to me sound best no mater what people said. And I would make sure that there were not any products that were of quality that I did not hear. That would be the good part of winning the lottery. having all the time to do that and having the money to buy it.

Save $1500 or less - go to the CES in January next year - all the companies are there together - at least most of them are in one form or other. The CES pass can be attained for free - you just have to say that you are a "Industry Affiliate" fill out the forms as if you are a business (they don't check) and you have a full pass for the event. Now you're into a flight and hotel - I think I paid $880 (from Canada) for a flight and 5 night stay at the Circus Circus (which turned out to be relatively nice despite some commentary to the contrary) and it's about a 25-30 minuted walk to the Venetian. But they have free shuttles just show them the CES pass.

The rooms are not perfectly ideal but then no room is perfectly ideal and they should work in most rooms considering they are selling to customers of all sorts of living spaces.

[RoadRunner6]

RR6 if that's accurate I doubt if a single U.S. store carry that many lines.

I've actually been in this two story shop several times. The list of brands on their website, they either stock or have access to. Their shop is packed with products.

http://www.sendai-nodaya.jp/

http://www.sendai-nodaya.jp/link.html

http://www.sendai-nodaya.jp/shop.html

[harley .guy07]

RoadRunner those pictures of that shop looks like the shops I remember here back when stereo was king and home theater just a thought(the 70's and 80's). I liked the fact that a shop carries enough brands to give you a good level of options and can hear different things. Home theater and buying off the internet has closed most of the high end shops in the smaller towns and shrunk the amount of shops in the big cities.

[RoadRunner6]

Yeah, the Japanese mindset is to buy very high quality. You can see this in the skis and golf clubs they buy.

They are big into two channel. I was surprised at how many of the nice Tannoy models they had. They really go in a big way for horn designs and tube gear.

[Poultrygeist]

Japan was the world audio leader during the 1970's when labor was cheap. Today China is the world leader due to their low production costs. Fostex drivers are Japanese but are now made in China along with 90% of all high end gear sold.

[harley .guy07]

I wish the stereo shops in America today would remember their roots and have stereo rooms and not just 5 different theater rooms at different price levels and all of it using receivers of different levels. Its like they forget that stereo has been around and was the king for many many years before this multichannel theater thing came into play and that for music 2 channel stereo is still the best way to listen to music in my opinion and for the most part the opinion of most audiophiles. I do most of my research online and through friends and people that have worked with the brands and components I am interested in because there is no shops in my area that give a s*^% about stereo or good music sound all they care about is how much bass and how dynamic the latest big movie sounds on one of their theater rooms. I am not saying that home theater isn't fun and cool for watching movies but damn I wish these shop owners would remember how they got to this level and would allow some room for the music audiophile as well.

[RGA]

A Luxury Hyundai will never have the Status of a Mercedes or BMW... Even if it performs better than them....

If you take a look at the Lemon-Aid - you will see that Hyundair does perform better - much better surprisingly. Indeed, Mercedes can charitably be called a bunch of total overpriced junk.

[Mr Peabody]

Anybody want to buy a Toyota!

Yeah, that probably was tacky.

[RGA]

yeah I'm running out of auto makers. A repair man here in my town said there are three things you should never do when buying a used car:

1) Never buy an American car
2) never buy a European car
3) Never buy a used car advertised as lady driven.

[E-Stat]

If I could afford it I would definitely own the Marantz Reference SA-7S1 SACDP for $7K as well as a pair of the $8K MA 9S2 monoblocks!
As for me, I would opt for an EMM Labs player instead (for a tad more) and something other than what you find at Crutchfield that promotes "full current feedback amplifier stage" for $16k.

rw

[frenchmon]

Thats why I will never say one piece of equipment is the best because its all subjective with little or no objectivity. One mans garbage is another mans treasure!

And I agree with you 100%

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

So true, it's subjective. It would be interesting to hear if Sony's $25k speaker even came close to the Dynaudio Sapphire at $16k.

Marantz might get some respect when their $2500.00 integrated performs like a Krell. I didn't say sounds like, I said performs like. If you don't know the difference then you shouldn't argue the point.

I heard it said by some that Conrad Johnson's Art series was some of the best in the world.

Japanese gear will get respect when they provide this type of performance along with the price tag they stick on it.

Those of you who are defending the Japanese, let's see your Japanese gear list. Let's say other than what you bought from mass market/department stores.

I guess I could start, I actually have a Marantz A/V preamp and I have to admit it's good for $2500.00. I don't use a lot of the features but it doesn't have much comp at the price.

Mr.Peabody...you're starting to sound like the guys at Music For Pleasure. Personally I think Marantz Reference is great, great gear. I've sat and listened to a $7000 Marantz reference amp and $7000 Marantz reference control amp with a $7 Marantz reference CDP driving some very expensive Legacy speakers and some Revel speakers when I lived in North Carolina

And the only Krell I've heard is your Krell. Now I think both the Krell and the Marantz reference both have a signature sound.....and if that is true, their is a big difference in the type of sound. Forget about the performance, its how it relates to your soul. I forget what I see on paper when listening to gear, how much passion does it interject into your soul...does it move you in a way that says I want that.

Now im not saying performance is a bad thing if that floats your boat, but how does it make you feel man. Just like that new line of Dali speakers you and I listened to last week...neither you or I understood anything about the performance of those small Dali book shelves but you and I where moved by them...and then we saw the Dali floor standers and they where just to polite for my taste. I know the sales guy tried to pass it off as not being broken in, but they did nothing for me. Now we sorta listened to those small Dynaudio 110's that where beside them and they moved me like all Dynaudio speakers do...so I could care less about performance thats on paper.

The Mantz gear is warm and has a tube sound to me. I think they would at least try and preserve a little of that sound they had back in their hay day even though its not really the same company. At one time they even thought about getting back into tubes briefly but it just did'nt work out for them. He's a little bit of the conversation about that.

http://www.hifinews.co.uk/content/interview.html


HFN: Are we likely to see any revisits of classic Marantz products?

KI: ‘Some time ago we did a replica of the Model 7 amp but the biggest problem is the tube. We started to make a product and then we got a shipment from China that wasn’t, in terms of the quality of tube, at all in line with what it was supposed to be. So, we had to give up continuation of that project. We initially accepted orders from people and we ended up with 8000 orders for the Model 7, 7000 orders for the Model 8 and 10,000 orders for the Model 9. We thought we could do that in one year but because of the fact that tube wasn’t there it took us three years to do this and we said “there’s no way we can run serious production this way”. That’s the unfortunate situation. To run it in a proper production number is very difficult. If the quality of the tube is much better then, yes. Another thing is the reliability of the tube was also not the same as what we are used to. Some of the tubes I saw (from China and Russia) it was just unbelievable how bad they were. Also, the basic manufacture, basic materials and control of materials, and control of how to manufacture everything was incredibly bad. The truth is we sent back 90% and whenever those tubes aren’t meeting the specification at all people don’t want that. The biggest problem with tubes is that used on amplifiers they have a special charm and sound characteristic so I can understand that some people want that. I understand it’.

The Krell gear on the other hand is a very different sound...its hard, fast and very powerful. And I think the Krell amps attract a very different type of listener than the Marantz listener. If I had to spend my money, I would prefer that Marantz Reference seeing that I listen to mostly accoustic Jazz and Blues. IF that where not my taste and listen to a lots of R&B and hard hitting Rock and Metal, then its maybe Krell or something with that sorta sound that moved me.

Im just tired of this my gear is better than your gear because on paper it can do this. Over at the audio shop last week, I listen to the sales guy put down gear from China and Japan like they where a bunch of audio snobbs. And because of that I will never set foot in that store again, and its not like St. Louis has a lot to chose from. They even had bad things to say about Cary Audio which is made right there in North Carolina. If it does not drive big speakers like Dynaudio's $16000 Sapphire's or does not have enough juice for their liking then to hell with it? What is that?

This is a very subjective hobby and we should respect the gear thats afforded us. Like Blackraven says...one mans junk is another mans treasure.....lets stop dumping on others junk.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

"Performance" is not on paper, it's in real life. If you prefer the murk of Marantz th'ats fine with me. What I'm talking about, and just using Krell as one example, when dollar for dollar the Marantz can drive a speaker load, have the transient response and revealing clarity and detail of Krell then they will be performing. If you want to spend the same amount of money and receive less that's your choice. You could probably get the same mediocre performance for less money than a Marantz, that's all I'm saying. I know you have a soft spot for them, yet I don't see you pursuing any of their gear when looking to upgrade what you have now. So I don't understand your harden line of defense of them. To clarify, in one of my above responses I excluded the Reference line from my comments on Marantz. Not that I think they are any better in the price per performance, it's just that I have not heard them to say for sure. An aquaintance owns some of the Reference and I hope to hear it some day. Just as you and others express your love I have the same right to express my distaste. Just because you heard it and like it don't mean every one has to. Because you like it don't mean all who doesn't is wrong. You have to accept others opinion even if it doesn't agree with yours. People have to listen and make up their own mind. If they buy on what you or I say alone then they are fools.

I also do not care for Revel and have always been consistent on that. People may enjoy them, that's fine, but they do not sound like music.

The guys at MFP aren't generally tubophiles. Their loss. It doesn't diminish the gear in the store. I'd rather go there than to some place like the Mac dealer we visited. All I needed was them to show me where the gear was, I didn't need to listen to any crap. That's why I was listening while you were talking. You aren't going to convince some one with a closed mind. Some day I will take my CT6 in and watch them sweat while it kicks some butt.

[frenchmon]

"Performance" is not on paper, it's in real life

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.


If you prefer the murk of Marantz th'ats fine with me.

And if you think Marantz is murk then thats your opinion... But I dont see how in one breath you can call Marantz Reference which you have not even heard, murk and not say the same for your Conrad Johnson gear which is tubed gear thats totally different from your Krell but more in the ball park of Marantz.


What I'm talking about, and just using Krell as one example, when dollar for dollar the Marantz can drive a speaker load, have the transient response and revealing clarity and detail of Krell then they will be performing.

You must be smoking something Mr.Peabody...and you did not even invite me over for some.:) :) Marantz Reference not clear, detailed unable to drive loads???? How do you know what Marantz can do???? Have you sat down and really listened to Marantz Reference??? How about the Marantz MA-9S2 Reference Series Power Amplifier at 300 watts. The two pieces of gear are totally different. IF you want to drive speaker loads that are out of the Marantz range then go with Krell or what ever can drive the loads. Would you buy a Lexus LS to drive in Indianapolis 500??? Get real man...its not always the biggest load and faster ride man. When will you learn that?


If you want to spend the same amount of money and receive less that's your choice. You could probably get the same mediocre performance for less money than a Marantz, that's all I'm saying.

Well then why did you spend the money on Conrad Johnson? There are many who would say you spent the same amount of money on that gear and got less awell when compared to something else. You see, you dont have the audio world cornered on best performance to price....so why act like it as you are doing? A sucker is born every day Mr. Peabody....we are all suckers in this hobby don't be delusional man. Some one has always got a better deal than the next man...im just sayin.


I know you have a soft spot for them, yet I don't see you pursuing any of their gear when looking to upgrade what you have now. So I don't understand your harden line of defense of them.

You don't understand a lot of things I do with my life.:) You don't know why I do the things I do. Yes Marantz Reference is one of my favorites...but I don't have to report to you do I, if I am pursuing it or not. I could be just waiting for a deal...I have other needs and responsibilities like a family....I have other reasons why I don't have Marantz Reference, but that's besides the point. I just get sick and tired of my system is better than yours, my system has better performance than yours.... When you and I where at Music for Pleasure, I left that place understanding that those guys are just audio snobbs. I know they are your friends but they need to keep their opinion about gear private while around customers. IF I where looking to buy from them, that's out the window now. Every body can't afford $30000 Bolder amps, or $14000 Clayton blocks, or $16000 Dynaudio Speakers....heck I doubt they can afford it, so why put down Cary Audio and gear from Japan like its junk. For some audio hobbyist it brings great pleasure and enjoyment.


To clarify, in one of my above responses I excluded the Reference line from my comments on Marantz. Not that I think they are any better in the price per performance, it's just that I have not heard them to say for sure.

Then why speak on those things at all as if you have? You are the only person who is really talking about the price/performance Mr.Peabody. Im in no way soft, and my feelings are not easly hurt. I can care less about what you think about my feelings, but it can be a turn off putting down other gear. There could be some serious lurkers here trying to get into the hobby and have the lower lines of Marantz and enjoying them only to read your negative spin...its a turn off really. I consider you and I friends but theres a beter way of getting your opinion across.

Hears one review...read it and if its not good enough for you then thats ok as well.

http://www.10audio.com/marantz_ma-9s2.htm


An aquaintance owns some of the Reference and I hope to hear it some day. Just as you and others express your love I have the same right to express my distaste.

Its not what you say...but just how you say it.


Just because you heard it and like it don't mean every one has to. Because you like it don't mean all who doesn't is wrong. You have to accept others opinion even if it doesn't agree with yours. People have to listen and make up their own mind. If they buy on what you or I say alone then they are fools.

Heres whats funny about this conversation....It started about Marantz and Krell. But have you ever thought about Marantz Reference after hearing that it has a warm Tube sound? What sound does your Conrad Johnson have? I've heard Marantz Reference and I've heard ConradJohnson...both are warm Mr.Peabody....My Musical Fidelity was warm MrPeabody especially paired with your Conrad Johnson. My Marantz Hometheater 7.1 receiver is warm when in direct two channel mode. None of them lacked detail. Conradjohnson while tubed is in the same musical sound as Marantz...warm. But you praise ConradJohnson and have nothing but contempt for gear you have never heard.....amazing.


I also do not care for Revel and have always been consistent on that. People may enjoy them, that's fine, but they do not sound like music.

Perhaps you should have listen tothem paired with Marantz Reference.:cornut: But seriously....If they did not sound like music, what did they sound like?


The guys at MFP aren't generally tubophiles. Their loss. It doesn't diminish the gear in the store.

I agree they had some nice stuff...its just the fact they where snobbs.


I'd rather go there than to some place like the Mac dealer we visited.

While they did not have a clue about their gear, and not a real two channel room, if I wanted Mac, I may go to the Sound Room but if I wanted Paradigm or Monitor Audio, I would have no choice. It depends on what gear I wanted.


All I needed was them to show me where the gear was, I didn't need to listen to any crap. That's why I was listening while you were talking. You aren't going to convince some one with a closed mind. Some day I will take my CT6 in and watch them sweat while it kicks some butt.

See there you go...when are you going to learn its totally subjective man!!!!! You may take that ConradJohnson in there and get laughed out the store. They may think that ConradJohnson has a crappy sound. Remember Mr.Peabody....one mans Junk is another mans Treasure....or in tis case...one mans Treasure is another mans junk.:)

And dont be mad at me.....we are still boys.

frenchmon

[Ajani]

"Performance" is not on paper, it's in real life. If you prefer the murk of Marantz th'ats fine with me. What I'm talking about, and just using Krell as one example, when dollar for dollar the Marantz can drive a speaker load, have the transient response and revealing clarity and detail of Krell then they will be performing. If you want to spend the same amount of money and receive less that's your choice. You could probably get the same mediocre performance for less money than a Marantz, that's all I'm saying. I know you have a soft spot for them, yet I don't see you pursuing any of their gear when looking to upgrade what you have now. So I don't understand your harden line of defense of them. To clarify, in one of my above responses I excluded the Reference line from my comments on Marantz. Not that I think they are any better in the price per performance, it's just that I have not heard them to say for sure. An aquaintance owns some of the Reference and I hope to hear it some day. Just as you and others express your love I have the same right to express my distaste. Just because you heard it and like it don't mean every one has to. Because you like it don't mean all who doesn't is wrong. You have to accept others opinion even if it doesn't agree with yours. People have to listen and make up their own mind. If they buy on what you or I say alone then they are fools.

I also do not care for Revel and have always been consistent on that. People may enjoy them, that's fine, but they do not sound like music.

The guys at MFP aren't generally tubophiles. Their loss. It doesn't diminish the gear in the store. I'd rather go there than to some place like the Mac dealer we visited. All I needed was them to show me where the gear was, I didn't need to listen to any crap. That's why I was listening while you were talking. You aren't going to convince some one with a closed mind. Some day I will take my CT6 in and watch them sweat while it kicks some butt.

Interesting you talk about performance when you speak about Krell VS Marantz.... Yet talk about 'sounding like music' when you compare Revel with other speaker brands... Revel is by all objective measures I've seen, one of the best performing speaker brands... Their measurements are always impeccable... So if you want to base purchasing on performance, you should be a huge Revel fan... Also, I'm pretty sure Conrad Johson can't match Krell's performance, but you clearly prefer CJ... why? Because CJ sounds more like music? I love performance, but it's not everything....

There's absolutely nothing wrong with you hating Revel, Marantz, etc... and RGA hating Krell, B&W etc... The issue is more how you express that opinion... Since we all have sonic preferences, if I say that Dynaudio and Magnepan sound like crap and that Revel and Monitor Audio will decimate them, then that would be potentially very misleading for someone not familiar with the brands... They might cross off Dyn and Maggie from their audition list, without listening for themselves... That's the issue some of us have with the way opinions are often expressed on hifi forums... We want you to recommend the gear you like... We want RGA to recommend the brands he thinks are best... But we don't want you to mislead people into thinking that Audio Note or Dynaudio, etc are the "Best" as that is totally subjective...

I try to recommend products I love and products I know others love in particular price ranges... So when posters ask about speakers in the $1K - $2K range for example, I'll often recommend trying out Revel and Monitor Audio (which I love) and also Dynaudio, Magnepan and Totem (none of which I care for)... Since I know that my tastes are not necessarily the same as the person to whom I'm making the recommendation...

[blackraven]

How can you not like the higher end reference series Marantz CD players. They in fact do present a warmer tube like sound with great air and detail. And it improves as you move up the line to their flagship $8K player which is highly respected.

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/cd-players-and-recorders/marantz-sa-7s1-95051/review

http://www.dartmouth.tv/audio/images/SA-7%20Absoulte%20Sound.pdf

http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/CD_Players/reviews/marantzSACD.htm

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting you talk about performance when you speak about Krell VS Marantz.... Yet talk about 'sounding like music' when you compare Revel with other speaker brands... Revel is by all objective measures I've seen, one of the best performing speaker brands... Their measurements are always impeccable... So if you want to base purchasing on performance, you should be a huge Revel fan... Also, I'm pretty sure Conrad Johson can't match Krell's performance, but you clearly prefer CJ... why? Because CJ sounds more like music? I love performance, but it's not everything....

Revel may look good on paper but it sucks to listen to. The tweeters sound like they are from Infinity's car audio line. Cymbals don't sound like cymbals. When comparing Krell to CJ it's something you nor Frenchmon are qualified to do. Frenchmon may have heard them but he still don't understand. Krell can't perform like CJ either. There are trade offs. Where Krell is powerful and may have transient response it does not have the macro and micro dynamics of CJ. CJ also puts soul into th music, gives it the groove it should have.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with you hating Revel, Marantz, etc... and RGA hating Krell, B&W etc... The issue is more how you express that opinion... Since we all have sonic preferences, if I say that Dynaudio and Magnepan sound like crap and that Revel and Monitor Audio will decimate them, then that would be potentially very misleading for someone not familiar with the brands... They might cross off Dyn and Maggie from their audition list, without listening for themselves... That's the issue some of us have with the way opinions are often expressed on hifi forums... We want you to recommend the gear you like... We want RGA to recommend the brands he thinks are best... But we don't want you to mislead people into thinking that Audio Note or Dynaudio, etc are the "Best" as that is totally subjective...
I try to recommend products I love and products I know others love in particular price ranges... So when posters ask about speakers in the $1K - $2K range for example, I'll often recommend trying out Revel and Monitor Audio (which I love) and also Dynaudio, Magnepan and Totem (none of which I care for)... Since I know that my tastes are not necessarily the same as the person to whom I'm making the recommendation...

Well you waste yours and the readers time because all you do is create a list. The reader can do that themselves. They want an opinion, that's why they read. Readers don't seem to have a problem aligning themselves up with the person they feel is relating to their question.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.
And if you think Marantz is murk then thats your opinion... But I dont see how in one breath you can call Marantz Reference which you have not even heard, murk and not say the same for your Conrad Johnson gear which is tubed gear thats totally different from your Krell but more in the ball park of Marantz.

To compare Marantz to CJ shows you have a lot to learn.

You must be smoking something Mr.Peabody...and you did not even invite me over for some.:) :) Marantz Reference not clear, detailed unable to drive loads???? How do you know what Marantz can do???? Have you sat down and really listened to Marantz Reference??? How about the Marantz MA-9S2 Reference Series Power Amplifier at 300 watts. The two pieces of gear are totally different. IF you want to drive speaker loads that are out of the Marantz range then go with Krell or what ever can drive the loads. Would you buy a Lexus LS to drive in Indianapolis 500??? Get real man...its not always the biggest load and faster ride man. When will you learn that?

When you brush up on your reading comp.

Well then why did you spend the money on Conrad Johnson? There are many who would say you spent the same amount of money on that gear and got less awell when compared to something else. You see, you dont have the audio world cornered on best performance to price....so why act like it as you are doing? A sucker is born every day Mr. Peabody....we are all suckers in this hobby don't be delusional man. Some one has always got a better deal than the next man...im just sayin.

I don't buy based on price per performance, I buy what I like to listen to. But I don't have Jolida and try to sit here saying it sounds like CJ

You don't understand a lot of things I do with my life.:) You don't know why I do the things I do. Yes Marantz Reference is one of my favorites...but I don't have to report to you do I, if I am pursuing it or not. I could be just waiting for a deal...I have other needs and responsibilities like a family....I have other reasons why I don't have Marantz Reference, but that's besides the point. I just get sick and tired of my system is better than yours, my system has better performance than yours.... When you and I where at Music for Pleasure, I left that place understanding that those guys are just audio snobbs. I know they are your friends but they need to keep their opinion about gear private while around customers. IF I where looking to buy from them, that's out the window now. Every body can't afford $30000 Bolder amps, or $14000 Clayton blocks, or $16000 Dynaudio Speakers....heck I doubt they can afford it, so why put down Cary Audio and gear from Japan like its junk. For some audio hobbyist it brings great pleasure and enjoyment.

A lot to do with nothing. Cary isn't a low price brand. You don't have to buy Reference, you were saying how great Marantz integrateds are. Maybe if you don't like what people have to say you need to quit asking them about it. Some one once said "don't ask, if you aren't ready to hear the answer because it may not be the one you are looking for". Apparently, you hear a lot you don't like.

Then why speak on those things at all as if you have? You are the only person who is really talking about the price/performance Mr.Peabody. Im in no way soft, and my feelings are not easly hurt. I can care less about what you think about my feelings, but it can be a turn off putting down other gear. There could be some serious lurkers here trying to get into the hobby and have the lower lines of Marantz and enjoying them only to read your negative spin...its a turn off really. I consider you and I friends but theres a beter way of getting your opinion across.
Hears one review...read it and if its not good enough for you then thats ok as well.
http://www.10audio.com/marantz_ma-9s2.htm

I will continue to state my opinion and if that's not allowed here then they can ban me. If I don't like something all the reviews and crying around here isn't going to change that. And if you or Ajani or Blackraven don't like my opinion then you don't have to read it.

Its not what you say...but just how you say it.

I say things as straight forward as I can in order to prevent misunderstanding. I don't like Klipsch but if it meets some one's needs or sounds like they may like it I will recommend it. I'm not going to put it on a list like Ajani just to be fair to all brands. I don't like it and I will not give a recommendation with no thought so some one can come back and say "Mr P recommended this and it sounds like crap". I have made no bones about not liking Yamaha in most instances, I guess I should thank the many here who own Yamaha that they didn't become offended and start whining.

Heres whats funny about this conversation....It started about Marantz and Krell. But have you ever thought about Marantz Reference after hearing that it has a warm Tube sound? What sound does your Conrad Johnson have? I've heard Marantz Reference and I've heard ConradJohnson...both are warm Mr.Peabody....My Musical Fidelity was warm MrPeabody especially paired with your Conrad Johnson. My Marantz Hometheater 7.1 receiver is warm when in direct two channel mode. None of them lacked detail. Conradjohnson while tubed is in the same musical sound as Marantz...warm. But you praise ConradJohnson and have nothing but contempt for gear you have never heard.....amazing.

To you there is only warm and not warm. There is way more to sound than that. Way more, and that's how much more you have to learn. And comparing Marantz to CJ shows that. If your Marantz receiver is so detailed why not just put one in your main system? Your comparisons make no sense what so ever.

Perhaps you should have listen tothem paired with Marantz Reference.:cornut: But seriously....If they did not sound like music, what did they sound like?

Do you really want me to answer that?

I agree they had some nice stuff...its just the fact they where snobbs.

While they did not have a clue about their gear, and not a real two channel room, if I wanted Mac, I may go to the Sound Room but if I wanted Paradigm or Monitor Audio, I would have no choice. It depends on what gear I wanted.

I could care less who you buy from.

See there you go...when are you going to learn its totally subjective man!!!!! You may take that ConradJohnson in there and get laughed out the store. They may think that ConradJohnson has a crappy sound. Remember Mr.Peabody....one mans Junk is another mans Treasure....or in tis case...one mans Treasure is another mans junk.:)

Well if they were honest they'd admit the quality. The CT6 shines a bass line groove like no other piece of gear I've heard and I've heard a lot of high end gear. The CT6 is a stand out piece.

And dont be mad at me.....we are still frenchmon
******

[Ajani]

Well you waste yours and the readers time because all you do is create a list. The reader can do that themselves. They want an opinion, that's why they read. Readers don't seem to have a problem aligning themselves up with the person they feel is relating to their question.

So a reader asks for speakers to audition... you recommend Dynaudio and say it sounds great and Revel sounds awful... I tell the reader that Mr Peabody is wrong, Revel sounds great and Dynaudio sounds like crap... How have we helped him? Providing him with a list of different sounding brands will allow him to figure out which one he prefers... Brand bashing, as you will no doubt continue to do, is pointless... Conrad Johnson is not better than Marantz.... Brand preference is opinion and not fact, so saying one brand is better is a joke... I'd rather point out brands that someone should audition than pretend that my tastes in sound are somehow correct and others are wrong...

Anyway, clearly we won't agree on this one... and trying to push this issue is about as pointless as you and RGA arguing about whether Krell is better than Audio Note.... So I'll leave you be....

[RGA]

I think this goes back to brand prestige - Marantz Reference should not be confused with Marantz receivers we see in the big box chains. Completely different amplifier topologies. One of the marantz ref amps a few years back was pure class A said to be very highly regarded - completely different amplifier than anything else they make.

Trouble is that it will be viewed the way their regular line-up is viewed and I think even people who go and hear it will have a certain assessment before actually auditioning it. This is something Peter Qvortrup noticed with internet forums blasting SETs for not having bass and not being able to play loud - so now at shows he brings tough bass heavy music and plays it louder than virtually anyone else regardless of watts at shows. No one - I don't care how much money you have will walk out of the room I walked out of complaining that the AN E with a 20 watt amp does not hang in with the MAXX 3 or Dynaudio Evidence or B&W N801 or whatever. The proof is in the comparison and that ONLY happens when it is directly auditioned not in words on forums or reviews.

Everyone has a different take on sound - I went to CES and walked into a room with SHUDDER - Sony loudspeakers. It was one of the best speakers at the show - Sony - Yeah that's what I thought SONY???? WTF? But yes. Some people didn't care for them - others felt they were some of the best speakers they've heard. Ray Kimber said he's never heard a better speaker at $25,000. (which is the retail of the Sony).

Here is a take on amplifiers from a guy who has had or owned and extensively auditioned most every high end amplifier going. I agreed with him on most of his take on gear but when we disagreed it was pretty big - he hated the Sony speakers for example. Still probably agree 8/10 times.

Check out where he places Krell - they do pretty well. They are comparing the "large" amps ie: their biggest and baddest http://www.audiofederation.com/blog/

[Mr Peabody]

Ajani, better, is not the point as much as what I prefer, that is the point. And, actually I'm glad I argued the Krell point with RGA because the OP through other posts found he and I had similar views. Not to mention the total misrepresentation of the brand and facts of the situation. Aside from our disagreements RGA and I actually do have common audio ground. Hard to believe but true. It's funny how guys like you and frenchmon complain because all the reviews write good reviews but on the other hand get bent out of shape when some one says they don't like something. If saying I don't like something is brand bashing so be it. I guess I should be flattered that my opinion carries so much weight.

Sometimes when you look at aspects of a piece better can be a fact, like in terms of better parts, better build etc.

Back to the main idea of the thread, when I look at reviewers reference systems I don't see a lot of Japanese gear. Maybe some digital pieces but definitely not Marantz, Denon or other japanese amps.

[Mr Peabody]

So a reader asks for speakers to audition... you recommend Dynaudio and say it sounds great and Revel sounds awful... I tell the reader that Mr Peabody is wrong, Revel sounds great and Dynaudio sounds like crap... How have we helped him? Providing him with a list of different sounding brands will allow him to figure out which one he prefers... Brand bashing, as you will no doubt continue to do, is pointless... Conrad Johnson is not better than Marantz.... Brand preference is opinion and not fact, so saying one brand is better is a joke... I'd rather point out brands that someone should audition than pretend that my tastes in sound are somehow correct and others are wrong...

Providing a list is no help unless he has lived in a cave and knows no brands. Again, you twist things, I say what I like and do not like which is not saying one is better than another. If I know something for certain, than I will say so, like if an amp will drive a certain load etc. If people didn't want an opinion they wouldn't ask.

Anyway, clearly we won't agree on this one... and trying to push this issue is about as pointless as you and RGA arguing about whether Krell is better than Audio Note.... So I'll leave you be....

Not pointless, you need to get the facts straight. You and frenchmon either have selective memory or reading comp issues. The point of dispute was not AN or Krell is better, it was that RGA tried to say certain amps at lower prices would fit the job better than Krell. What is pointless would be to bring this up again after it's already been settled.

What is also pointless is to give some one a list of equipment brands with no purpose but to list names. I have my likes and dislikes, I will continue to state them in the appropriate content. There are brands I don't care for but do respect for what they are.

I still own both Audio Note and Krell, in sound they are different animals. In build quality the Krell is hands down better based on the AN I have. I had to have my AN DAC serviced for a bad solder joint. Aside from that the Krell stuff is always over built. My AN DAC is an excellent performer though. Is that brand bashing to say the AN isn't built as rugged as Krell? It's a fact. The AN is a thinner metal chasis and the unit is light, a Krell DAC could be a lethal weapon.

[IBSTORMIN]

This is very interesting as all my electronics is Japanese crap.

[Mr Peabody]

[QUOTE=IBSTORMIN]This is very interesting as all my electronics is Japanese crap.

Yeah, but your all right, your gear had help from BAT which is American. :)

That does remind me though, house of Onkyo knows the way of the current.

[frenchmon]

Ajani, better, is not the point as much as what I prefer, that is the point.

Oh yeah! then why did you write this?


. Some day I will take my CT6 in and watch them sweat while it kicks some butt.

This is the attitude that shines through your postings....that is the exact point you have been making.



It's funny how guys like you and frenchmon complain because all the reviews write good reviews but on the other hand get bent out of shape when some one says they don't like something. If saying I don't like something is brand bashing so be it. I guess I should be flattered that my opinion carries so much weight.

Oh like you never called some one else gear CRAP? Oh come on Mr.Peabody! Expressing your idea of some ones gear as CRAP and stating you really dont like it because of the sound or performance is totally to different things.


Sometimes when you look at aspects of a piece better can be a fact, like in terms of better parts, better build etc.

IF that is how you feel, then why Bash Marantz Reference as you do never even heard it? I suspect you have not even read anything about the Marantz Reference becasue it fits what you just stated.


Back to the main idea of the thread, when I look at reviewers reference systems I don't see a lot of Japanese gear. Maybe some digital pieces but definitely not Marantz, Denon or other japanese amps.

Well I've seen enough and I've read enough reviews to dis agree with you.This is a world wide hobby and Marantz Reference is much more bigger in Europe than it is in the states. Just because you dont see it does not mean its not there.

frenchmon

[RoadRunner6]

It's amazing all the changes that are being made throughout the Audio/HT community. If you are cruising manufacturing facilities in China, you could be surprised who you might see at the same facility checking on their production schedules. Like in a company that rhymes with Shell and one that rhymes with Oliva.

Mr. P, does this Krell remote look vaguely familiar? Ok, the obvious comeback will be that just because the Krell remote is a carbon copy of some other companies CD remote doesn't mean that Krell doesn't demand better parts, etc. in the manufacturing of their products. :biggrin5:


http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/chuckienut/krell.jpg

[poppachubby]

So a reader asks for speakers to audition... you recommend Dynaudio and say it sounds great and Revel sounds awful... I tell the reader that Mr Peabody is wrong, Revel sounds great and Dynaudio sounds like crap... How have we helped him? Providing him with a list of different sounding brands will allow him to figure out which one he prefers... Brand bashing, as you will no doubt continue to do, is pointless... Conrad Johnson is not better than Marantz.... Brand preference is opinion and not fact, so saying one brand is better is a joke... I'd rather point out brands that someone should audition than pretend that my tastes in sound are somehow correct and others are wrong...

Anyway, clearly we won't agree on this one... and trying to push this issue is about as pointless as you and RGA arguing about whether Krell is better than Audio Note.... So I'll leave you be....

I see your point Ajani, but I think it's premised on the assumption that these info seekers are feeble and easily led.

By the time someone is ready to consider the likes of Krell, Audio Note, whatever...they've probably already owned a few systems and have some idea of what they like. I would think they'd be looking for strong views and opinions to help them navigate the storm of useless information.

If someone is researched, they'll be able to sniff out what is good, helpful information vs. biased sentiment.

[IBSTORMIN]

[QUOTE=IBSTORMIN]This is very interesting as all my electronics is Japanese crap.

Yeah, but your all right, your gear had help from BAT which is American. :)

That does remind me though, house of Onkyo knows the way of the current.

The fact is, the older 1980's dual mono Integra amps I have sound much better than the newer amp from Integra Research. I bought the IR thinking it would be much better due to the balanced design and BAT influence. I was very disappointed as it did not reveal as much detail as the older non-balanced Integras and I sold it. It's a shame we can't get these amps any more, all anyone now knows of Integra is H/T. Their H/T is good, I have it elsewhere in the house but not as good as their older stuff.

[frenchmon]

It's amazing at the changes that are being made throughout the Audio/HT community. If you are cruising manufacturing facilities in China, you could be surprised who you might see at the same facility checking on their production schedules. Like in a company that rhymes with Shell and one that rhymes with Oliva.

Mr. P, does this Krell remote look vaguely familiar? Ok, the obvious comeback will be that just because the Krell remote is a carbon copy of some other companies CD remote doesn't mean that Krell doesn't demand better parts, etc. in the manufacturing of their products. :biggrin5:


http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/chuckienut/krell.jpg


Yeah...I was not surprised to learn that at least one Krell amp is made in China.

[Ajani]

I see your point Ajani, but I think it's premised on the assumption that these info seekers are feeble and easily led.

By the time someone is ready to consider the likes of Krell, Audio Note, whatever...they've probably already owned a few systems and have some idea of what they like. I would think they'd be looking for strong views and opinions to help them navigate the storm of useless information.

If someone is researched, they'll be able to sniff out what is good, helpful information vs. biased sentiment.

PoppaC, you and I are experienced in this hobby, so we can easily determine what advice we want to take or disregard.... My concern is really for newbies whose first real exposure to high-end is this site (that is how I started and I was confused as hell with all the arguments back then - I actually left the site and did the journey on my own for a couple of years) - so though I wouldn't call newbies 'feeble and easily led', I know they are far more impressionable than those of us who have years of hifi experience...

[Ajani]

It's funny how guys like you and frenchmon complain because all the reviews write good reviews but on the other hand get bent out of shape when some one says they don't like something.

While I won't argue with you any further on how you choose to express your opinion... I will address this point as it 100% incorrect about me... I don't complain about good reviews... I understand the review process and how to use and how not to use reviews.... When I want to read negative reviews and group shootouts, I read UK publications...

Negative reviews are actually even less useful than positive ones... For example, HiFi News raved about the Krell S300i for being as good as separates costing twice as much and an unbelievable giveaway at the price... What Hi-Fi? Rated the Krell 3 out 5 stars and said it only did enough to warrant recommendation.... So as a reader, I see one Rave and one Bash for the Krell.... great, how does that help me? If I only read HFN, I'd assume the Krell is a must audition product, but if only read WHF, then I wouldn't even take the time to listen to the Krell...

[Mr Peabody]

Oh like you never called some one else gear CRAP? Oh come on Mr.Peabody! Expressing your idea of some ones gear as CRAP and stating you really dont like it because of the sound or performance is totally to different things.

Show me a quote where I said that. and when you can't, you admit you are a liar. And, i don't mean something I said you don't like, I mean exactly what you said I said.

IF that is how you feel, then why Bash Marantz Reference as you do never even heard it? I suspect you have not even read anything about the Marantz Reference becasue it fits what you just stated.

Boy, when you get on a wrong track you remain lost

Well I've seen enough and I've read enough reviews to dis agree with you.This is a world wide hobby and Marantz Reference is much more bigger in Europe than it is in the states. Just because you dont see it does not mean its not there.

Show me, I be interested in seeing a reviewers system that uses Marantz Referencce. Put up or shut up.
frenchmon[/QUOTE]

[Mr Peabody]

RR6, it's common knowledge that Krell began going to China, I said that way back in JohnMichael's post when he was looking at the s300i. So much for your gotcha. All I can say is that I am disappointed they went that way and mine was built here. I suppose in order to compete with every one else you have to do as they do. Heaven forbid the profit line should shorten.

[frenchmon]

Oh like you never called some one else gear CRAP? Oh come on Mr.Peabody! Expressing your idea of some ones gear as CRAP and stating you really dont like it because of the sound or performance is totally to different things.

Show me a quote where I said that. and when you can't, you admit you are a liar. And, i don't mean something I said you don't like, I mean exactly what you said I said.

is this your quote


The guys at MFP aren't generally tubophiles. Their loss. It doesn't diminish the gear in the store. I'd rather go there than to some place like the Mac dealer we visited. All I needed was them to show me where the gear was, I didn't need to listen to any crap. That's why I was listening while you were talking. You aren't going to convince some one with a closed mind. Some day I will take my CT6 in and watch them sweat while it kicks some butt.

But after rereading the quote it seems you where not talking about the gear but about what the salesman was saying...sorry
__________________

IF that is how you feel, then why Bash Marantz Reference as you do never even heard it? I suspect you have not even read anything about the Marantz Reference becasue it fits what you just stated.


Boy, when you get on a wrong track you remain lost

and how so?


Well I've seen enough and I've read enough reviews to dis agree with you.This is a world wide hobby and Marantz Reference is much more bigger in Europe than it is in the states. Just because you dont see it does not mean its not there.

Show me, I be interested in seeing a reviewers system that uses Marantz Referencce. Put up or shut up.
frenchmon

Here's one reviewer thats got Marantz as his reference, and he states it after he tried it out. And I've seem other reviews where the reviewer had Marantz as a the reference.


The Marantz MA-9S2 Reference Series power amplifiers have taken up permanent residence as my references. Check them out. Happy listening!

Why don't you go and read the review. Heres the link.

http://www.10audio.com/marantz_ma-9s2.htm

frenchmon

[RoadRunner6]

RR6, it's common knowledge that Krell began going to China, I said that way back in JohnMichael's post when he was looking at the s300i. So much for your gotcha.

Sorry, Mr. P, but that wasn't directed to you at all and it wasn't a gotcha. I simply was talking to all here in general about Krell and then asked you if you recognized the remote because I knew you owned the ERC-1. I figured someone would play down this by denying that the amp was made in the same factory as other brands.

[RGA]

i think with the issue of build quality one has to separate the internal from the external - plenty of amplifiers - and other gear - add a lot od superfluous weight to the case which has absolutely nothing to do with the internal parts of an amplifier - McIntosh makes a heavier amplifier than a given Audio Note but in terms of the quality of parts inside - it's not even remotely a close contest - Audio Note uses more expensive exotic materials from soldering materials to wiring, to transformers etc.

If you think about it the name badge on the front of any piece of gear is second to the internals. Audio Note does not waste money on the casing which is irrelevant and that is why in most cases the top of the line unit looks exactly the same as the entry level model - they simply have a few different cases and it's the inside that is changed.

I would agree that AN is not the best "built" stuff in their price bracket though - and that is because they don't seem to put a lot of their drving effort into things related to casework - so they are susceptable to transport damage and silver solder is a softer metal which does lead to separation more than other types. Moreover, their connectors while very high quality also build up dirt and need to be cleaned or they lose connectivity - more-so than others.

I am not really for the idea of buying an AN dac and sticking into a Krell Dynaudio system - it's just not what AN had in mind and frankly I don't think one can actually "hear" what AN sounds like in a system like that - that's not a knock on Dynaudio or Krell - it's reality - They were never designed with those kinds of speakers or amplifiers in mind and in some cases there is an audible mismatch of input impedances especially if the DAC was the previous generation to the new filterless varieties.

It's not that I dislike Krell - I just feel that way about virtually every expensive Solid State amplifier on the market. After certain price points regardless of the name on the front I find that you can get better sound from a tube amp. $500 - 4k on a SS amp ok - beyond that I'd buy a tube amp. If the speaker needs that much power - it's probably not a very good loudspeaker - or will be bettered by a speaker that does not require that much power.

[Mr Peabody]

Sorry RR6 for misunderstanding.

RGA, I used an EAD transport with the AN DAC and it did sound great with the Krell amp and Dyn speakers.

Frenchmon, you found me using the word "crap" but not in the context you were referring to. First of all the sentence does not show me calling anything that. Secondly, I was referring to listening to what the sales people were saying. Brush up on the reading comp.

[Mr Peabody]

It seems like a lame excuse Marantz gave for not following through on the delivery of the tube gear. They make it sound like China is the only place to get tubes. Where do the U.S. and European manufacturers get their quality tubes from?

[jrhymeammo]

This site needs more discussion like this, except for the whole "He said She said".

Hey P,
I have yet to be impressed (in a long run) by Marantz, and doubt I'll spend my money on their future products. But if I had tons of disposable income, I might consider this one to feed my curiosity.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0303/boylan/MarantzProjectT1.jpg

I think Marantz's lame excuses is marketed and is called "HDAM". I'm not positive but Reference Audio Mods make an attempt to bypass their proprietary buffer stage. If so, I would like to bypass the HDAM of my SA8001, but it still may sound muddy after spending $1K+. I would rather spend my $1K+resale on a different CDP. But I should hold my comments until I receive my preamp tomorrow.

Has anyone mentioned phono cartridges made by Japanese?
Jeez bunch of digi-heads around here. :)

JRA

[blackraven]

jrhymeammo, Do you find the SA8001 muddy? I'm just curious, because I owned one for about 1 month with a Cambridge Audio 740c which IMO blew it out of the water in clarity, resolution. sound stage and detail. I eventually returned both and bought the 840c. I liked the warm analog sound of the marantz but the sound stage and detail won me over with the Cambridge units.

[frenchmon]

It seems like a lame excuse Marantz gave for not following through on the delivery of the tube gear. They make it sound like China is the only place to get tubes. Where do the U.S. and European manufacturers get their quality tubes from?

Thats a good question.

This is all I could find in my limited research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

History

Before the commercial introduction of transistors in the 1950s, electronic amplifiers used vacuum tubes (known in Great Britain as "valves"). By the 1960s, solid state (transistorized) amplification had become more common because of its smaller size, lighter weight, lower heat production, and improved reliability. Tube amplifiers have retained a loyal following amongst some audiophiles and musicians. Some tube designs command very high prices, and tube amplifiers have been going through a revival since Chinese and Russian markets have opened to global trade—tube production never went out of vogue in these countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

frenchmon

[jrhymeammo]

Yes I do. I've said it many times before, and have caught some vicious heat in the mix.

It's hard to explain, but it definitely sounds congested or even out of phase to my ears.
I don't think it has anything to do with their house sound. But if the HDAM is the culprit, then I seriously need to get a different player.

I will write another review in about a month or so.
JRA

[blackraven]

Yes I do. I've said it many times before, and have caught some vicious heat in the mix.

It's hard to explain, but it definitely sounds congested or even out of phase to my ears.
I don't think it has anything to do with their house sound. But if the HDAM is the culprit, then I seriously need to get a different player.

I will write another review in about a month or so.
JRA

I caught a little heat as well when I posted my thoughts on the 8001 and the 8003 which I also took home to audition. While I like the general tone of the 8001/8003, I felt that there was not enough air and sound stage. I feel that even this new Yamaha DVD-S1800 universal player sounds better on SACD than the Marantz but not std Cd. Stereophile however rated the SA8001 a class A I believe. My good friend has the 8001 and it matches well in his system with an Audio research tube preamp, Belle's Hot rod amp and his PSB Synchrony's but still lacks air and sound stage.

[blackraven]

Russia was still using tubes in their high performance Fulcrum jet fighters in the 1990's and may still be.

[E-Stat]

Russia was still using tubes in their high performance Fulcrum jet fighters in the 1990's and may still be.
And are light years behind the technology found in the F-22 Raptor. The 6C33 triodes used by Russian fighters in their radar systems, however, work quite well as amplifiers in a number of amplifiers from BAT, Joule Electra, etc.

rw

[blackraven]

Estat, It was just in the news that Russia now has a new Stealth fighter based on the F22 design. There was a video of it flying. They designed it with India no less.

[E-Stat]

Estat, It was just in the news that Russia now has a new Stealth fighter based on the F22 design. There was a video of it flying. They designed it with India no less.
Provide facts, not speculation. While they can emulate the physical shape, there is far more to the Raptor design that what you see. Which is clearly what the Russians have done previously with many SU and MiG designs.

rw

[blackraven]

Hey, I'm not saying its as good as the F-22 but who knows. It looks similar in shape.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,584241,00.html

[E-Stat]

Hey, I'm not saying its as good as the F-22 but who knows. It looks similar in shape.
I suggest you do a bit of research on the Raptor.

rw

[blackraven]

I've read all about it and have no doubt it is the best and most advanced plane in the world. But out technology somehow makes it into Russian and chinese hands.

[E-Stat]

I've read all about it and have no doubt it is the best and most advanced plane in the world. But out technology somehow makes it into Russian and chinese hands.
I repeat: provide facts, not speculation. The Russians and the Chinese don't know what they don't know.

rw

[blackraven]

Roflmao! I'm not laughing at you Estat, just at this pointless off topic discussion that I started.

[Mr Peabody]

ARC also uses the 6H30 in several newer preamps, I have to wonder if that's what caused my perception of a decline in sound quality of some ARC or just a coincidence.

[E-Stat]

Roflmao! I'm not laughing at you Estat, just at this pointless off topic discussion that I started.
And the lack of any data to support your discussion.

rw

[blackraven]

And the lack of any data to support your discussion.

rw


There's no way that I can and the same goes for you. No one knows the ins and outs of the plane except for the Russians and India and possibly U.S. intelligence. And I'm on your side, I seriously doubt that Russia and India have the tech to develop an equivalent plane to the F22 at present.

But I have been thinking about becoming a spy:smilewinkgrin:

[Enochrome]

I'm positive that Marantz is American, located in Chatsworth, California for awhile, then moved elsewhere in America. It doesn't matter where to a degree; the B&W 685's are made in China and are the top rated mid-priced bookshelf speaker.

[frenchmon]

I'm positive that Marantz is American, located in Chatsworth, California for awhile, then moved elsewhere in America. It doesn't matter where to a degree; the B&W 685's are made in China and are the top rated mid-priced bookshelf speaker.


Since when is Marantz American? Where you get that from. I think you're positively wrong.

frenchmon

[frahengeo]

Since when is Marantz American? Where you get that from. I think you're positively wrong.

frenchmon

Don't know how much confidence you have in Wikipedia, but according to the site it was originally American:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marantz

[E-Stat]

There's no way that I can and the same goes for you.
Very good reason to not speculate. The performance envelope of the Raptor is well known.

rw

[E-Stat]

Don't know how much confidence you have in Wikipedia, but according to the site it was originally American:
Yes, Saul Marantz was an American from New York state and developed some famous components in the 7C preamp, 8b and Model 9 amplifiers and the 10b tuner. He sold his company to a Japanese firm in the 60s. He later partnered with Jon Dahlquist in the original DQ-10 speaker in the 70s.

rw

[Feanor]

i think with the issue of build quality one has to separate the internal from the external - plenty of amplifiers - and other gear - add a lot od superfluous weight to the case which has absolutely nothing to do with the internal parts of an amplifier - McIntosh makes a heavier amplifier than a given Audio Note but in terms of the quality of parts inside - it's not even remotely a close contest - Audio Note uses more expensive exotic materials from soldering materials to wiring, to transformers etc.
....

I am not really for the idea of buying an AN dac and sticking into a Krell Dynaudio system - it's just not what AN had in mind and frankly I don't think one can actually "hear" what AN sounds like in a system like that - that's not a knock on Dynaudio or Krell - it's reality - They were never designed with those kinds of speakers or amplifiers in mind and in some cases there is an audible mismatch of input impedances especially if the DAC was the previous generation to the new filterless varieties.
....
RGA, your relentless shilining for AN is getting old. As an aspiring semi-pro reviewer you at least ought to pretend to be objective.

"Impedance mismatches" are avoided by proper design, that is, high input impedance + low output impedance. Period.

[RGA]

Being objective is merely telling it like you hear it. As for McIntosh - I have looked inside compared to what's inside a competing AN unit - Seems objective to me - maybe you would agree if A) you ever bothered to listen and B you ever bothered to look. Assuming I am not being objective when I have heard both, seen both, and made an assessment. It seems like YOU are not being objective - just attacking without any actual experience.

[Feanor]

Being objective is merely telling it like you hear it. As for McIntosh - I have looked inside compared to what's inside a competing AN unit - Seems objective to me - maybe you would agree if A) you ever bothered to listen and B you ever bothered to look. Assuming I am not being objective when I have heard both, seen both, and made an assessment. It seems like YOU are not being objective - just attacking without any actual experience.
Yeah well, and to what extent is your judgement as the superiority of the AN's internal components anything more than subjective? Because a capacitor says "Audio Note" on it, does that make it better? Last I heard you were not an electrical engineer.

[Mr Peabody]

I have a 1.1x which does include the trademark "no filter" technology. I bought it sometime before they switched distributors and started offering the things as a kit. I know people are into that but it really took the resale value out of it. For some reason buyers like things that come from a manufacturer opposed to an individual. Although mine was not a kit it still seems to have that association.

I also used the Ead/AN combo for the front end of my CJ for a long time. Until the transport died. Then in search of a good transport my ears fell pray to the T+A. The T+A seemed to have a lot of the naturalism of the AN but was much better in resolution and the T+A had more snap to things. I am a bit unsure any more to use the word "dynamic" as the reviewers seem to have splintered dynamics into several types. As the 1.1x is AN's entry DAC I'd sure love to hear one of the better ones because the 1.1x is excellent. Talking about it reminds me I have never had it hooked to the CT6, sounds like something to do in time.

[RGA]

Feaner one does not need to be an electrical engineer to read what electrical engineers have to say about the matter.

"RGA

As a non Audio Note owner I have often been one of your strongest defenders. I have tested many capacitors myself and AN not being one of them and can not believe the difference in sound from one to another. AN said all along high quality foil sound the best and this is being proven time and time again. I have found AN to be unique as a company, no other audio company talks at extensive detail my language and the only one the should matter parts quality.

On the McIntosh website I seen tons of pretty pictures of blue lights but can find very little about quality of parts? On the AN site Peter will go into great (and maybe boring to some) detail of parts quality and how everything is made. I have never seen such detail of quality of parts.

On the tempo Electric website

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm

"Formerly made by Jensen in Denmark and relabeled for Audio Note, current production is fabricated in England by another firm. In 2008, their dielectric was changed from paper-in-oil to mylar-in-oil. The silvers were out of our price range and we just overlooked the coppers. Peter Qvortrup of AN (UK) has been kind enough to offer loaners for the next round".

Peter will also allow his capacitors to be tested against the very best money no object caps in the world. He either makes or buys some of the best. This is not normal and I can not understand how the new Mac owner (corporate Clarion) could ever do something like this? As a corporation they must have much more focus on the bottom line. There is also no proof that using the best parts improves the bottom line in fact no doubt does the opposite drives up cost while reducing sales because of that cost.

So in my mind ONLY a private company like AN could even build high quality sound. This is much of what was the vintage by the way meaning Saul Marantz, Avery Fisher (and McIntosh) etc when they owned their companies they could (shoud they want to) go crazy on quality with little financial gain. As a public company one can not do this as a CEO or one gets fired!

I can not afford any new AN gear but am very glad their is someone doing this. I reference the AN site all the time about what matters and to try and understand audio."

And from an electrical engineer and audio review expert http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/blackgate/blackgate_Feb2003.pdf

And another engineer http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

And that's just the capacitors - of course Audio Note actually bothers to listen to them all try them all and use the best ones. Most companies have a purchasing agent select "whatever" capacitor meets a spec sheet value - because after all "it all sounds the same" - stick a nice blue light on the front and put 70lbs of sheet metal around the blue light and the people will line-up. They take no interest in the parts quality - and interestingly if all the parts all sound the same and they can buy based off the spec sheet - you as a consumer may as well do the same.

[poppachubby]

Interesting. My tech just finished my Golden Tube which had infamously bad capacitors in it. I spent top dollar to put Wima and other TOTL caps into it, and the result is glorious.

How these changes sound is subjective for the listener, however both my tech and I agreed that more detail was evident. Sound aside, I'm not sure how a TOTL machine can be sold using anything less than the best capacitors. Anything less will most likely fail earlier. We could be talking about 15 - 20 years, but none the less...

From what I can see, Audio Note assumes the utmost intelligence from their customer, and as a result, reveal and discuss accordingly. However, I don't think this takes away from Mac. I'm sure if one has the right questions, they could be answered. Of course, you would have to ask...

[Feanor]

Feaner one does not need to be an electrical engineer to read what electrical engineers have to say about the matter.

"RGA

As a non Audio Note owner I have often been one of your strongest defenders. I have tested many capacitors myself and AN not being one of them and can not believe the difference in sound from one to another. AN said all along high quality foil sound the best and this is being proven time and time again. I have found AN to be unique as a company, no other audio company talks at extensive detail my language and the only one the should matter parts quality.

On the McIntosh website I seen tons of pretty pictures of blue lights but can find very little about quality of parts? On the AN site Peter will go into great (and maybe boring to some) detail of parts quality and how everything is made. I have never seen such detail of quality of parts.

On the tempo Electric website

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm

"Formerly made by Jensen in Denmark and relabeled for Audio Note, current production is fabricated in England by another firm. In 2008, their dielectric was changed from paper-in-oil to mylar-in-oil. The silvers were out of our price range and we just overlooked the coppers. Peter Qvortrup of AN (UK) has been kind enough to offer loaners for the next round".

Peter will also allow his capacitors to be tested against the very best money no object caps in the world. He either makes or buys some of the best. This is not normal and I can not understand how the new Mac owner (corporate Clarion) could ever do something like this? As a corporation they must have much more focus on the bottom line. There is also no proof that using the best parts improves the bottom line in fact no doubt does the opposite drives up cost while reducing sales because of that cost.

So in my mind ONLY a private company like AN could even build high quality sound. This is much of what was the vintage by the way meaning Saul Marantz, Avery Fisher (and McIntosh) etc when they owned their companies they could (shoud they want to) go crazy on quality with little financial gain. As a public company one can not do this as a CEO or one gets fired!

I can not afford any new AN gear but am very glad their is someone doing this. I reference the AN site all the time about what matters and to try and understand audio."

And from an electrical engineer and audio review expert http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/blackgate/blackgate_Feb2003.pdf

And another engineer http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

And that's just the capacitors - of course Audio Note actually bothers to listen to them all try them all and use the best ones. Most companies have a purchasing agent select "whatever" capacitor meets a spec sheet value - because after all "it all sounds the same" - stick a nice blue light on the front and put 70lbs of sheet metal around the blue light and the people will line-up. They take no interest in the parts quality - and interestingly if all the parts all sound the same and they can buy based off the spec sheet - you as a consumer may as well do the same.
MOS, (more of same).

Testimonials! :rolleyes:

[poppachubby]

Hey Bill, I think we should try and hook up again. DAC and if you're willing, Golden Tube into your 1.6's...I'll email you.

[Feanor]

Hey Bill, I think we should try and hook up again. DAC and if you're willing, Golden Tube into your 1.6's...I'll email you.
Sounds good, PC. :cornut:

[E-Stat]

On the McIntosh website I seen tons of pretty pictures of blue lights but can find very little about quality of parts?
What you need to do is tour their facility which I have done. They use a mix of state-of-the-art automated assembly surface mount components (where they make sense) along with good old fashioned hand assembly. While I confess that I am not one of their biggest fans, they are very passionate about the quality of the product. I will agree, however, that you do not find the most exotic capacitors as you would in products by some other companies like Audio Research, et. al.

I will echo Bill's comment that you seem to believe there is but one company on the planet worthy of mention. My experience suggests otherwise. There are dozens of leading edge companies who share the same passion as Peter Q. As for me, I find choosing components from a single company to be like inbred marriage - there is value to combining the efforts of the many rather than limiting to any one.


And that's just the capacitors - of course Audio Note actually bothers to listen to them all try them all and use the best ones. Most companies have a purchasing agent select "whatever" capacitor meets a spec sheet value
Perhaps *most* only in the sense of including the mass market companies. ALL leading edge audio manufacturers listen to the sonics of passive components and many have their own choices custom made.

rw

[poppachubby]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Manley Labs Ralph, being that you're a fan, great example. Ridiculous quality in their products. HiFi-Tommy has toured their factory, I'm jealous.

[E-Stat]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Manley Labs...
That's exactly why I didn't mention them. The good news today is there are countless exceptional firms and designers out there producing wonderful product. :)

rw

[RGA]

What you need to do is tour their facility which I have done. They use a mix of state-of-the-art automated assembly surface mount components (where they make sense) along with good old fashioned hand assembly. While I confess that I am not one of their biggest fans, they are very passionate about the quality of the product. I will agree, however, that you do not find the most exotic capacitors as you would in products by some other companies like Audio Research, et. al.

My problem with McIntosh is the general sound quality and general lack of focus. My belief is that they don't have a belief about sound quality. They make tubes - first chance they get they dump it for solid state - then when tubes become popular in North America - they bring back tubes. These are not decisions made by a philosophical view about sound - but "whatever will sell" and sticking sexy blue lights on the front to sell to male buyers who are "visually stimulated" is great marketing but little else. They make reasonably competent gear but that's about it.

Moreover, I find it puzzling that many people who will pay LARGE for interconnects and speaker cables will at the very same turn buy amplifiers and cd players and turntables without being at all interested in the internal parts of the items they're buying. McIntosh is on record for not being interested in the internal cables - they all sound the same. That view may have changed recently - the wind blew and they change with it. Audio Note was founded by a Metallurgical engineer so the internal wiring and soldering material and "parts" were always the priority.



I will echo Bill's comment that you seem to believe there is but one company on the planet worthy of mention. My experience suggests otherwise. There are dozens of leading edge companies who share the same passion as Peter Q. As for me, I find choosing components from a single company to be like inbred marriage - there is value to combining the efforts of the many rather than limiting to any one.

There are "some" companies that are worthy of mention but few have the same passion as Peter Qvortrup. And you can walk into the rooms at CES and figure that out pretty fast who is passionate about music and who is passionate about making a buck. And some are passionate but unfortunately don't make particularly great stuff.

Audio Note is a mix of many companies - you should know this by now. They did not design everything and never claimed to and often hire away the best designers of other companies to create what they need. And besides that I don't see buying from one company to be a problem - if the system is "better" than a competitor's mix and match then who cares how you got there. I don't think there is anyone that does what Audio Note does to the level. I know of no other company that makes the entire chain that is in the top tier of equipment in each thing they make. Linn turntables yes, you might make the case for their CD 12 (I would not but even if I included it) everything else they make isn't up to that level? Shindo? maybe - have not heard it. Silbatone - no digital, Zanden possibly but not sure they make loudspeakers?



Perhaps *most* only in the sense of including the mass market companies. ALL leading edge audio manufacturers listen to the sonics of passive components and many have their own choices custom made.

No they most certainly do not. The head engineer of McIntosh who was there for 25+ years didn't "listen" to internal cables - which is why they use the cheapest junky wiring going and then the customer is out spending $500 a meter on Kimber cable - it's just idiocy to spend all that money on an interconnect to then have it connected to total crap inside the amplifier and CD player. And most audiophiles are out there doing this exact same thing - look at the industry that is out there "FIXING" amplifiers and speakers - Oh you can fix that Magnepan by using a competent resister or "the first thing you should do is replace the B&W capacitors to get it to sound decent". Or You should upgrade the transformers, or replace the speaker's wiring. There is a whole industry around this. CLEARLY parts quality matter and very few makers seem interested.

It makes no sense whatsoever to buy some pricey interconnect and speaker cable that is made of completely different material and design than what is inside the amplifier and speakers (or source). It is whacked.

I take issue that I supposedly only like Audio Note. Unfortunately, or fortunately for them - they make systems and components from under a $100 to over half million. And I consider their "systems" and "components" in league with anything in their price points and often the reference to be beaten. There are terrific speakers that I would probably be "just as happy" with like the Trenner and Friedl RA Box - but it's $25,000 so how am I going to recommend it to the guy looking at speakers for $7,500?

There are plenty of companies though that have passion and ability - no question that there was some great stuff that impressed the hell out of me at CES and a few - very few - that genuinely seem interested in MUSIC and not demonstrating the usual suspects of audiophile recordings - which are usually garbage to play to the strengths of the system. Wikle some of them have different objectives that Peter has in the end result I found their perspective to be entirely valid and would create long term excellent sound. For me personally, CES was nice to FINALLY hear stuff that you could tell had passionate ears behind them and not selling watts, numbers and "in" designs. Unlike you - I don't feel that is remotely the case for most of them - who are selling price points and style in expensive boxes to make a buck.

My show report is coming very slowly but there is a LOT of stuff that I like - probably more than you do in fact and certainly more than Feaner - Panels or nothing guys or am I wrong?

It's interesting that I am blasted, usually only by panel guys, for being close minded and only liking Audio Note - and yet I probably would own over a dozen loudspeakers including a couple of panels - yet you guys insist on the outright silly notion that panels are more accurate and less coloured - perhaps only your glasses are coloured!

[RGA]

Testimonials! :rolleyes:

So what do you want - the technical adviser for Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice and the founder of Monitor Audio is not good enough for you?

Maybe you are a little too dim to understand but if you have the best cut of beef from an organic fed cow and you have a great Chef make you a steak with the elite cut of beef - it does actually yield better results than a worm filled steroid fed McHamburger. Granted I may not be able to "prove" that the first 5 star burger from the master chef is better than a McHamburger in a completely objective way - so we must use our taste to determine that. Some people have better taste than others.

[Feanor]

So what do you want - the technical adviser for Stereophile, Hi-Fi Choice and the founder of Monitor Audio is not good enough for you?

Maybe you are a little too dim to understand but if you have the best cut of beef from an organic fed cow and you have a great Chef make you a steak with the elite cut of beef - it does actually yield better results than a worm filled steroid fed McHamburger. Granted I may not be able to "prove" that the first 5 star burger from the master chef is better than a McHamburger in a completely objective way - so we must use our taste to determine that. Some people have better taste than others.
Fine, you can have the last word. :)

Incidentally I wasn't saying all capacitors sound the same -- in case you thought so.

[RGA]

Fine, you can have the last word. :)

Incidentally I wasn't saying all capacitors sound the same -- in case you thought so.

Then I don't get it. Do you truly believe there is nothing in audio that is "better and worse" and that everything is 100% a matter of taste. Sorry but I happen to believe there is stuff that is better than other stuff. If one amp uses the filet mignon of caps and the other is using the big mac of caps in their amps then I don't see why you had a problem with my first post on the subject. If something sounds different - then chances are one of them will sound better. And then there is different but generally equal.

I am wondering what "different" $1600 loudspeakers that you believe are the equal of the Maggie 1.6 - a box? No right? You chose the 1.6 therefore there is nothing made that is better for the money.

Mr. Close minded Audio Note guy found that gee I could see someone buying a Prince II loudspeaker over my speakers - I wouldn't but there was certainly a "different" but reasonable reason to go that route. Or eve the new Gallo 3.5 I could see, or Studio Electric or Usher or piles of others that I consider very formidable products.

The only people who are one note about all things audio - are panel owners - every single one - except the few like Art Dudley and several others who switched to ahem a box.

[jrhymeammo]

I don't care for taking sides or whatever, but I really do not think RGA is a shill.
Just too passionate about the AN products. I really need to hear them for myself, and have thought about acquiring one of their phono preamps for their simple design and quality components.

I think Japanese makes both horrible and excellent products, nothing in between that I can think of though...

[E-Stat]

No they most certainly do not. The head engineer of McIntosh who was there for 25+ years didn't "listen" to internal cables
FWIW, I don't consider Mac to be a leading edge company. They are the Cadillac of the industry with all that implies.


My show report is coming very slowly but there is a LOT of stuff that I like - probably more than you do in fact and certainly more than Feaner - Panels or nothing guys or am I wrong?
Then why is it you ALWAYS talk about AN?


It's interesting that I am blasted, usually only by panel guys, for being close minded and only liking Audio Note
It has nothing at all to do with choice of speakers. All you talk about ad nauseum is AN and no one could ever accuse you of brevity!

rw

[RGA]

AN comes up more from me due to a numbers game ONLY.

You don't ask why every speaker recommendation from Feaner is ALWAYS and only Magnepan.

You don't see that come up as much because they ONLY make loudspeakers.

Someone says they want a sub $1k speaker - so given the very many loudspeakers I have heard including the MG 12 and MMG I would recommend the AX Two, - but I also recommend several other loudspeakers. Someone is in the market for a CD player in the $3k range - sorry but I go with what I have heard and feel is the best I have heard - Sorry but that just so happens to be an Audio Note. Speakers - I value a speaker that can handle Nightwish at loud levels but also sound absolutely spot on right with acoustic music, and vocals. Happens to include Audio Note - but I recommend other speakers WITH Audio Note.

If some says "looking for speakers under $10k" I include Audio Note virtually every time for the simple reason that I find little else that is out there that I think are as good. That's an honest assessment. There are other speakers that I like a whole lot but I'll recommend my favorite one first. It's not my fault that so far I find the E/Spe HE to be the best deal in the audio industry for loudspeakers. I just happened to find that early in life while Dudley took 40 years of listening to everything to draw the same conclusion.

I think that those sorts of companies deserve to be shouted about while most of the industry is shouting about rubbish to generate income for the industry and partners.

I find that most poster recommend the same thing all the time - Mr. P Dynaudio and Krell, Feaner Magnepan, Bel Canto or whatever else he bought this week, Florian and all things Panels, PatD and whatever measures well that week - Paradigm and PSB etc.

Gee in the last months here I have recommended everything from Kind Sound, Grant Fidelity, Odyssey, Klipsch, Audio Note, Sonist and several others. Feaner? you?

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, I take issue with that, I do not always, and in fact, seldom recommend Krell and Dynaudio. Well Dynaudio I may put out there more so than Krell. That just happens to be the last thread you read with me on it. I try to recommend what the person is looking for that I am familiar with. In most instances here posters are not looking to spend in the Krell and Dynaudio range. I think it is better to go with what the poster is wanting. You, on the other hand try to convert them to SET and AN speakers no matter what they are looking for. I think that's the issue more so than you being an AN fanboy. You also do not consider where people live and what they have access to. It may be vogue to you to recommend stuff no one has ever heard of but may be try and zero in on the question. Not everybody wants a Shanpooki or Yatzumutzi or whatever your Chinese flavor of the week is.

[02audionoob]

RGA, I take issue with that,...snip...

Oh come on...seriously?

[RGA]

RGA, I take issue with that, I do not always, and in fact, seldom recommend Krell and Dynaudio. Well Dynaudio I may put out there more so than Krell. That just happens to be the last thread you read with me on it. I try to recommend what the person is looking for that I am familiar with. In most instances here posters are not looking to spend in the Krell and Dynaudio range. I think it is better to go with what the poster is wanting. You, on the other hand try to convert them to SET and AN speakers no matter what they are looking for. I think that's the issue more so than you being an AN fanboy. You also do not consider where people live and what they have access to. It may be vogue to you to recommend stuff no one has ever heard of but may be try and zero in on the question. Not everybody wants a Shanpooki or Yatzumutzi or whatever your Chinese flavor of the week is.

Yeah you know now how I feel when someone says all I recommend is Audio Note. You might get it - people saying all you recommend is Krell and Dynaudio - you may tout it more often but not to the exclusion of everything else. Feaner and E-Stat won't because for them there is NOTHING ELSE except panels - NOTHING. Feaner is obviously a shill for Magnepan correct - after all he recommends them for people seeking rock - so he is either completely deaf or is on their payroll right?

As for SET conversion - no it's myth busting and fact correction. As for the size of the maker - well yes some of them will be tough to find and audition but then again that's the point of forums and reviews etc is to get the word out on superior gear that went under the radar - if forums are not for that no one needs to get on them - they can pick up Hi-fi Choice and What Hi-Fi and get the latest speaker shootout of the major players.

[E-Stat]

Feaner and E-Stat won't because for them there is NOTHING ELSE except panels - NOTHING.
Look in my gallery and of the three systems, you find planars in how many? The only brands where I own more than one of their product is Pioneer and VPI: I have a single player CD (on the shelf) and have a changer and have both a VPI RCM and turntable. Other than that, my systems are made up of different brands in each system with no overlap in any other system. I don't think you're a shill, but I confess that there is no other poster here or on any other website who has your dogged consistency. While there is certainly nothing at all wrong with enthusiasm, I agree that if you purport to be an objective reviewer, you need to expand that enthusiasm a bit. :)

What is a good $2000 speaker? AN
What is a good $80,000 speaker AN
What is a good DAC? AN
What is a good amplifier? AN
What is a good turntable? AN
What is a good cartridge? AN
What is a good speaker cable? AN

rw

[Ajani]

Look in my gallery and of the three systems, you find planars in how many? The only brands where I own more than one of their product is Pioneer and VPI: I have a single player CD (on the shelf) and have a changer and have both a VPI RCM and turntable. Other than that, my systems are made up of different brands in each system with no overlap in any other system. I don't think you're a shill, but I confess that there is no other poster here or on any other website who has your dogged consistency. While there is certainly nothing at all wrong with enthusiasm, I agree that if you purport to be an objective reviewer, you need to expand that enthusiasm a bit. :)

What is a good $2000 speaker? AN
What is a good $80,000 speaker AN
What is a good DAC? AN
What is a good amplifier? AN
What is a good turntable? AN
What is a good cartridge? AN
What is a good speaker cable? AN

rw

Seconded.... The concept that one brand is the best in every category is perplexing (to say the least).... Even die-hard Naim fans, will often prefer speakers or cables from other brands....

[Feanor]

... Feaner and E-Stat won't because for them there is NOTHING ELSE except panels - NOTHING. Feaner is obviously a shill for Magnepan correct - after all he recommends them for people seeking rock - so he is either completely deaf or is on their payroll right?

...
This is factually untrue. I always qualify Magneplanar recommendations by saying they are best suited to acoustic music, and I also mention positioning restrictions.

I have mentioned that Magneplanars can be used with particular subwoofer arrangements to deliver adequate rock sound, but I never recommended them for gut-punch music.

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.

[Ajani]

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.

Problem is that MANY audiophiles suffer from that same type of arrogance & self-delusion... Which is why there are so many never-ending quarrels about brand and technology superiority on HiFi sites...

I can't just prefer the sound of Solid State to Tubes... it has to be that SS is Technically Superior...

I can't just prefer the sound of Vinyl to CD.... It must be that Vinyl is more like real music than digital....

I can't just prefer the sound of Planars to Box Speakers.... It must be that removing the box, results in the sound no longer being colored...

I can't just prefer the sound or cost of headphones.... It must be that anyone who buys traditional speakers is a fool for spending that much, when I could have achieved better sound for a tenth of the price....

In 10 years on this site, I still see the exact same quarrels and same type of quarrels... Whether it was Flo talking about the superiority of his Apogees or Peruvian claiming that PSB speakers were better than anything else for about double the price, the same failure to comprehend that we all have different tastes and sonic priorities is apparent... There is no best brand in HiFi... There is only the brand you like the best.... And you don't need to prove to anyone else that your brand is better than theirs... If I like Marantz or any other Japanese Brand, then who cares whether other persons on this forum think that European or American brands are better or are SOTA???

We can choose to spend our time fighting about what brands are better, like children on the playground debating whether Batman is more awesome than Spiderman, or we can accept that we all have different tastes and move on...

[Feanor]

...

We can choose to spend our time fighting about what brands are better, like children on the playground debating whether Batman is more awesome than Spiderman ...
But this is much of the fun, is it not? :cornut:

[GMichael]

If one amp uses the filet mignon of caps and the other is using the big mac of caps - - then chances are one of them will sound better. And then there is different but generally equal.

.

And there goes my diet! Suddenly all I can think of is a good steak (and a crappy burger) either would be fine about now.

[RGA]

Seconded.... The concept that one brand is the best in every category is perplexing (to say the least).... Even die-hard Naim fans, will often prefer speakers or cables from other brands....

First E-Stat should know better and so should several other attackers. E-Stat knows for example that his "one maker" attack is a lie.

AN Speakers are in fact Snell Loudspeakers - the AN E is a Snell Type E. How exactly is that "one make?" Explain it to me. Linn, Rega, Naim etc all design their own stuff and I don't think any of these is remotely in the same class as Audio Note simply because contrary to popular opinion I agree that being a jack of all trades is very tough and very expensive. And incidentally, Rega, Naim and Linn all make good products - Linn makes nice speakers for the price, so does Rega - have not heard Naim - they all make nice amps in their price ranges. None of them go to cost no object lengths except Linn and they only do it with their source. It's simply NOT the same kind of company.

Take the DAC - they went and hired Michael Kerster the head designer at Sonic Frontiers who in their hayday were arguably making the best digital on the planet. He helped in the design of the zero-times oversampling design - that is not a 100% in house design anymore if you go out and hire someone from another company. Turntables are improved versions of Systemdek. They didn't design Systemdek now did they - Systemdek did. Audio Note basically tweaked it rewired them - upgraded the motors - created a two and now a three motor version of them but that's different than designing the whole thing from scratch.

So when I recommend AN it is like recommending

What is a good $2000 speaker? AN (SNELL)
What is a good $80,000 speaker AN (SNELL)
What is a good DAC? AN (AN/SF)
What is a good amplifier? AN (AN) and incidentally I don't recommend them as often as I recommend other amps - and I will put $10,000 on this fact - bring it on.
What is a good turntable? AN (SystemDek IIX)
What is a good cartridge? AN (Goldring)
What is a good speaker cable? AN ( I don't recommend cables)

So E-Stat is reading things that are not there - I recommend SET - he Reads AN, I recommend High Efficiency speaker - he reads AN.

I have recommended speakers from Klipsch, Trenner and Friedl, Tannoy (not mine or anything resembling mine), KingSound, Sonist, Studio Electric, Gallo, Usher, Sillbatone, Wilson, Wharfedale, ProAc, Harbeth, Acapella, Vandersteen, Gershman Acoustics, Reference 3a, Energy, Quad, Sonus Faber, Meridian etc. So E-Stat's Hyperbole aside there are plenty of loudspeakers alone that I like.

I have not recommended AN cables, and rarely do I recommend a specific amp from them unless the OP is particularly looking at a Single Ended amp in the given price points and wants to accumulate an "audition list" - and AN is one of if not the biggest selling SET maker on the planet so I hardly think it's out of the question to bring them up.

I happen to share Peter's belief about how audio should be approached - because it is one of the few that is based in any sort of logic in a field that is woefully lacking it.

The best system that I have ever heard happens to be an all Audio Note system. So it stands to reason that I would therefore recommend them. I would hope that if I were asking - people would be recommending their favorites to me - and not just list a bunch of different stuff in the hopes to be seen as objective. There is a difference between being objective and pretending to be objective. I don't have time for posers.

[RGA]

This is factually untrue. I always qualify Magneplanar recommendations by saying they are best suited to acoustic music, and I also mention positioning restrictions.

I have mentioned that Magneplanars can be used with particular subwoofer arrangements to deliver adequate rock sound, but I never recommended them for gut-punch music.

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.

Yes but then people who get insulted usually are the people that have never bothered to listen to any of it. Rather than get all defensive about it why not hear a few elite samples of it for a period of time. But I get it the guys on AA several years back got on me for not trying such systems and I ate my words and sold my speakers.

[RGA]

This is factually untrue. I always qualify Magneplanar recommendations by saying they are best suited to acoustic music, and I also mention positioning restrictions.

I have mentioned that Magneplanars can be used with particular subwoofer arrangements to deliver adequate rock sound, but I never recommended them for gut-punch music.

Your own statements are full of implication that any & every serious audiophile ought to prefer SET + high efficiency speakers: this is ridiculous, and insulting. As Mr. P suggests, it's made only more tedious by the relentless insistance that AN is necessarily the best of the best.


I Have never said it is the best of the best - though I have said that they have made the best system that I have heard - that's not the same thing is it. Or is English not your first language? If this is the case I am sorry.

I use my OTO amp as an example. As a reviewer and I have reviewed it - I note several drawbacks. Hi-Fi choice gave the amp 4/5 and I agree with the assessment because such products are simply too finicky for a mass audience. Sure they said it sounded the best in their shootout but it is woefully hampered by a lack of power, no features, heat and I would have added good but not great build quality. So as good as it sounds in the right system I would still agree that it would be a 4/5 or a class B product because I view it as an idiosyncratic product. I don't recommend the preamps - they simply don't work with much stuff - I chose a Rotel Preamp for review purposes because it's quite neutral for the money and is friendly over a wide spectrum of power amps - the AN M1 IMO sounds miles and miles better - but it only sounds miles and miles better with select power amps. So you don't see me suggest people buy an M3 too often - sometimes but not often.

You do NOT see me recommending the OTO very often - I have probably recommended people look into SS Odyssey amps more and certainly I have recommended the SS Sugden more than any Audio Note amps - I do not own a Sugden and while I did own a Sugden I usually recommended the one I didn't own. Why? Because the A21a would be a better fit with most people's speakers.

I recommend SET/HE a lot however - no question about it but that does not contain the words Audio Note - you simply "assume" and "read into" it that I must be talking about AN. I can't help it that you read things into posts. Tri, Antique Sound Labs, Trends Audio, aesthetix, KR Audio, Grant Fidelity, Cary, Lamm, Jolida, Mystere, Rogue Audio among others are tube amps that I like and could recommend and have recommended.

I think the single biggest thing I recommend from Audio Note and I am pretty sure if you look you will agree are the loudspeakers and the idea of the complete system be considered at the outset is the best approach. But over the last couple of years more and more speakers have been added to my recommendation list.

You will be surprised at which ones I recommend most strenuously at CES. But the $7600 AN E/SPE HE at $7600 IMO hung in with everything at the show and bettered most of them. Can you really blame me if I audition $20k, $30k, $40k and $375K loudspeakers and I say umm yeah but the $7,600 speaker is easily in that same class and betters most of them in actually just sounding like the instrument is in the room and not a woofer in a box or a string in the air vibrating.

So if you were in my shoes you'd want to be recommending that to people as well. And still I mention the Tannoy Kensington, King Sound's Prince II and Gallo and Studio Electric and Teresonic - if you have not seen me recommending them much you will see them more often in my recommendations from this point forward.

[E-Stat]

E-Stat knows for example that his "one maker" attack is a lie.
A lie? Ever looked at the AN website under the products (http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/_home_products_01.shtml) link?


AN Speakers are in fact Snell Loudspeakers
For some reason, the "E" is not to be found here. (http://www.snellacoustics.com/ProductDetails/InRoomSpeakers.asp) I understand the original lineage, but don't recall Snell ever adding $70k worth of silver to their speakers.


The best system that I have ever heard happens to be an all Audio Note system.
Now, there's a surprise!

rw

[Feanor]

I Have never said it is the best of the best - though I have said that they have made the best system that I have heard - that's not the same thing is it. Or is English not your first language? If this is the case I am sorry.

...
Calm down, Rich. "Best of the best" and "best system that I have heard" sound pretty close to me. Pardon my broken English.

Admittedly I'm looking forward to reading your future reviews.

[Ajani]

The best system that I have ever heard happens to be an all Audio Note system. So it stands to reason that I would therefore recommend them. I would hope that if I were asking - people would be recommending their favorites to me - and not just list a bunch of different stuff in the hopes to be seen as objective. There is a difference between being objective and pretending to be objective. I don't have time for posers.

Such a shame you have no concept of what being objective is....

A poser is the typical pompous audiophile, who assumes that his personal preference is the best or most like the live event... A poser is is the typical pompous audiophile who claims to have more refined tastes than others... A poser is the typical pompous audiophile who feels justified in his purchases by claiming that reviewers with 40 years of experience have now started recommending a brand he's been loving for years...

Objective is understanding that we all have different sonic preferences... Objective is being willing to suggest a varied selection of products and allowing the other person to make up their own mind, rather than trying to convince them that your own preferences are the best...

Anyway, I have no more energy to waste on a futile discussion... So go back to arguing about the same old crap that you've been arguing for years on this site.... I'll go listen to some tunes....

[Feanor]

...
For some reason, the "E" is not to be found here. (http://www.snellacoustics.com/ProductDetails/InRoomSpeakers.asp) I understand the original lineage, but don't recall Snell ever adding $70k worth of silver to their speakers.
...
Neither does AN; that's just how much they charge! :lol:

[E-Stat]

Neither does AN; that's just how much they charge! :lol:
They charge serious change for the Sogon. The meter long Harmonic Technology Magic power cords I use with the VTL amps employ 10 gauge 6N silver and ran merely $1800 for the pair. :)

rw

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, you like Vandersteen? Klipsch?

[RGA]

A lie? Ever looked at the AN website under the products (http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/_home_products_01.shtml) link? /QUOTE]

Are you serious - you seemed to be to be someone who studied a bit of audio history. Peter Q was Snell's distributor in the late 70s and was a huge fan of the original Type A, E, J and K. All of them are Peter Snell designs. Peter died in his 30's and Kevin Voecks - the speaker company killer, came in and changed the designs. Peter felt the new designs sounded like caca - (he was right they do) and so he purchased the rights to the original models, bought the entire world stock of Snell speakers as well as all of the unfinished cabinets. http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/speakers_info.shtml

There were changes to the speakers - Audio Note changed the port to allow for corner loading and removed the rear firing tweeter. They changed all of the internals drivers.

[QUOTE=E-Stat]
For some reason, the "E" is not to be found here. (http://www.snellacoustics.com/ProductDetails/InRoomSpeakers.asp)

The current Snell is name only - there is zero about current Snell that Peter Snell intended - Current Snell is owned by Denon and sounds like it.



I understand the original lineage, but don't recall Snell ever adding $70k worth of silver to their speakers.

And it may explain why the AN versions a helluva lot better (better parts again yield better sound not just in amplifiers and cd players.. Snell also didn't use the cabinetry, drivers, capacitors or port design. Peter Snell put Snell on the map and back in the day they were very highly regarded - a lot of that has crumbled sadly since his death and beancounters taking over the name and selling appearance.

And the entry level prices are in line with inflation on the entry level side of things. And yes they get expensive but you can get them for $2500. That's the point you the customer get to choose how far you want to take the design. How much is the A1? LOL - be serious.

[RGA]

They charge serious change for the Sogon. The meter long Harmonic Technology Magic power cords I use with the VTL amps employ 10 gauge 6N silver and ran merely $1800 for the pair. :)

rw

Have you examined why the difference in price is there - and when did you actually audition the Sogon in your system? Or is this all based on zero actual experience?

[RGA]

RGA, you like Vandersteen? Klipsch?

Yes Vandersteen brought their flagship $45,000 models and they sounded very good and quite unlike the 2ce which I don't care for. Klipsch's Reference series speakers are quite a nice bargain at the budget end of the spectrum - it's too bad they sell in crappy stores with receivers and bad rooms. Fortunately I got to hear them with a good tube amps and a nice front end - they sounded better than several much more expensive Paradigm and B&W's. With price in mind they can sound quite nice. And the K-Horn despite some issues is a great loudspeaker regardless of era.

[RGA]

Anyway I don't really want to go down this road again - Japanese make good gear - CES was evidence to that. Good luck living life forming opinions on stuff you've never actually auditioned. But hey it's working for you so enjoy.

[E-Stat]

Are you serious
Quite serious. Did you follow my link? There you will find:

7 cartridges
6 MC transformers
5 tonearms
3 turntables
3 CD players
2 CD transports
9 DACs
11 preamps
8 integrated amps
19 power amps
6 speakers with endless options and
20 cables!

Most of which are designated AN dash something. So these are NOT AN products? Huh?


The current Snell is name only
Now they are sold under the AN name. You seem to have difficulty associating the products found on the AN website to be...AN products today.


Have you examined why the difference in price is there
I've already answered that. It is all about Ag with their foil caps, voice coils and cable. Hemp cones optional. I haven't made any observations about their sound.


rw

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, just keeping up with the posts and trying to read objectively, it seems if one changes the drivers, crossovers and cabinet, there isn't a lot left to resemble the original speaker. Especially in sound. I've only heard one pair of Snell, about 15 years ago. Probably not true Snell. I remember they did sound better than the Paradigm at the time. So I'm thinking they must not be so bad. I also wonder where Snell is today in the market. None of the Denon dealers carry them around here. Are they still in business?

It's a shame Vandersteen has to go to $45k to make a speaker that sounds good. I'll have to take your word for that. I'll also try to keep an open mind that some day I might hear a Klipsch I can tolerate. It's not only the sound but after having a pair of their towers in my home for an audition really made me lose respect for Klipsch. I believe they were in the RF line, a tower with two 10's and a horn. Not only did they completely go into distortion with good clean amplification at high volume, a look into the large port revealed minimal internal bracing at best, cheap cap for crossover and almost no damping material. Hopefully, this treatment doesn't stretch across all their models.

[Ajani]

RGA, just keeping up with the posts and trying to read objectively, it seems if one changes the drivers, crossovers and cabinet, there isn't a lot left to resemble the original speaker. Especially in sound. I've only heard one pair of Snell, about 15 years ago. Probably not true Snell. I remember they did sound better than the Paradigm at the time. So I'm thinking they must not be so bad. I also wonder where Snell is today in the market. None of the Denon dealers carry them around here. Are they still in business?

It's a shame Vandersteen has to go to $45k to make a speaker that sounds good. I'll have to take your word for that. I'll also try to keep an open mind that some day I might hear a Klipsch I can tolerate. It's not only the sound but after having a pair of their towers in my home for an audition really made me lose respect for Klipsch. I believe they were in the RF line, a tower with two 10's and a horn. Not only did they completely go into distortion with good clean amplification at high volume, a look into the large port revealed minimal internal bracing at best, cheap cap for crossover and almost no damping material. Hopefully, this treatment doesn't stretch across all their models.

That's actually exactly what I thought... After having the design for over 30 years and making all those changes, they should be all Audio Note and not Snell by this point...

[RGA]

Quite serious. Did you follow my link? There you will find:

7 cartridges
6 MC transformers
5 tonearms
3 turntables
3 CD players
2 CD transports
9 DACs
11 preamps
8 integrated amps
19 power amps
6 speakers with endless options and
20 cables!

Most of which are designated AN dash something. So these are NOT AN products? Huh?


Now they are sold under the AN name. You seem to have difficulty associating the products found on the AN website to be...AN products today.


I've already answered that. It is all about Ag with their foil caps, voice coils and cable. Hemp cones optional. I haven't made any observations about their sound.


rw

The name on the front of the box means little - what counts is what is inside the box - Audio Note's transport is the Philips Pro - piles of companies use the Philips Pro - And some companies will make significant changes to the inside - most only make changes to the outside and the prices are high on all of them. See Lexicon.

Your contention is that Audio Note is poor because no company could be great at everything.

Unfortunately, your assessment is not supported. Your contention is supported for all other single make companies who make the entire chain - and I am not disagreeing with ou on the point. For instance you can make the case that Linn's sources are very highly regarded while their speakers and amps are considerably lesser.

But can you honestly "objectively" say that in the review press that there is something from Audio Note that is considered a "weak link?" Even if you don't like the sound yourself.

What I want you to do is just look at it from a Press perspective ONLY - just taking a massive sampling of the review press from all around the world online and in print - you can see that Rega is noted more for turntables than speakers, Linn sources more than amps, Naim - more for amps than anything else.

Putting myself in a bystander perspective - I have read many reviews that consider the LP 12 to be one of the best turntables in it class ( I personally may feel something else is better but I acknowledge the fact that the review press lauds the LP12 for being at a certain "elite" level in their price class at least - Would you agree that the LP12 has been very highly regarded around the world in the review press? Yes - of course RGA.

However, never ever have I read that about their amps, or speakers being in some kind of "elite" class of amplifiers or loudspeakers. One tunrtable and one CD player and that's it. Two products in their entire history in the review press have been widely considered around the world as "elite" products. There may be a couple more but I think it's fair to say that in general my assessment of Linn - and taking my ears completely out of it - the CD Sondek 12 (or whatever it was called) and Linn LP12 have widely been viewed as "elite" level products. Regardless of my opinion on them - I bow to the fact that they are considered elite products.

We can do the same for Rega and several other companies and find the same kinds of thing - one or two products here or there that get that attention.

Now keeping that same "what I hear" out of it - and looking objectively at Audio Note's flagship products does the same argument we made about Linn hold true?

If we look at the sources - Dac 5 and either version of the TT3 turntable, tone arm, and cartridge? I think they are widely considered to be in an "elite" level

Amplfiers? Pretty sure that the M3 on up Ongaku, P4 and Gaku-On's have been widely recognized as being at an "elite level"

Speakers? Yup - maybe more so than anything else

Seems to me like something in each part of the audio chain has been widely acclaimed around the world to offer something at an Elite level - something you can't objectively state for Linn or Naim or Rega etc.

Again without auditioning or even putting your ears into the equation and ONLY looking at the objective sampling of reviews.

I don't think there is any other case to be made - none of that means you won't like a Bat amp Wilson Maxx 3s and a PrimLuna source better. Some no doubt will. I'm just looking at the case from a review print perspective and the issue that one company can't make an entire chain of elite level stuff.

[RGA]

That's actually exactly what I thought... After having the design for over 30 years and making all those changes, they should be all Audio Note and not Snell by this point...

It's all how you look at it - yes the speakers are now Audio Note - they bought the rights and Peter Snell is dead. But as with most speaker designs someone copied something from someone and then improved it to make it better. The AN E box design was created by Acoustics engineer and opera house designer L.L. Beranek in 1940. Snell took it and created the Wave Launch approach. Audio Note took the Snell and supercharged it. The cabinet dimensions are exactly the same as the L.L. Beranek model. The Snell wave launch and matching system has been kept. But AN has been trying to make it better and better to extract more and more of what is possible from that cabinet. But that is NOT a single manufacturer approach - they do a lot of it but they get help from the engineers and experts past and present. You could say that the AN E is an Snell/Audio Note co-effort - but it would be wrong not to have Snell or LL Beranek as the major parts of the deal - without them there would not be an AN E. And if Snell lived he may have made much better speakers than the AN E. Peter Qvortrup said that he believes had Snell lived he would have made better loudspeakers that what Audio Note is capable of doing. So I think you can't just write off Peter Snell.

[RGA]

Fred Crowder of Dagogo has his Audio Note show report up. Unlike virtually any other reviewer out there - Fred has deep pockets - he can pretty much afford all of our speakers combined. He currently owns the $192,000 Acapella Triolon Excalibur loudspeakers and has been going to CES and other shows for over 20 years. He has similar though not identical taste to me. Now, like I said - Audio Note is not "THE BEST" because I simply don't think you can say that about any gear. What you can say is what is the best to you.

Fred has heard it all. Fred would choose the Acapella speakers over Audio Note speakers. I have heard Acapella's Violoncello II and frankly if the AN E is going to lose to something there is no shame at all losing to the Violoncello II ($80k) let alone the Triolon Excalibur. Fred has a massive listening space too which makes it a moot point anyway because even though he loves the sound of the AN E it's just not going to work in large rooms - no matter how good it is.

His show report http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=694

His Bio and equipment listing http://www.dagogo.com/View-Staff.asp?hStaff=5

There are few out there with his pockets and knowledge.

[E-Stat]

what counts is what is inside the box
And who is calling who a liar by way of observation!


Your contention is that Audio Note is poor because no company could be great at everything.
When did I say that? You need to expand your horizons past one company if you wanted to be taken seriously as a reviewer.


Unfortunately, your assessment is not supported.
What assessment is that?


But can you honestly "objectively" say that in the review press that there is something from Audio Note that is considered a "weak link?" Even if you don't like the sound yourself.
I'll repeat for the umpteenth time. I think you should branch out beyond the work of a single company. You might be surprised what you find.


What I want you to do is just look at it from a Press perspective ONLY...
I totally lost you after this. It seems you can't take a crap in the morning without talking about AN.

rw

[RGA]

E-Stat - I auditioned over 70 rooms at the show. So can you please explain what you mean by needing to branch out. What is that you want me to do. I went and heard the best of the best - and I heard an awful lot of the best over the last 20 years.

[E-Stat]

I went and heard the best of the best - and I heard an awful lot of the best over the last 20 years.
Start talking about them! With nearly twenty posts in this thread alone, this is now the 9,682nd time you've extolled the virtues of AN on high above all. Everyone else see that - except for you. :)

rw

[RGA]

Very few people read forum threads - far more people read what is on the review site. I think you are correct that I happen to talk about AN more than anyone else - I would not deny that. I think it has to do with prior listening experience. But if you take what I have been writing since say October 2009 and from this point on you will be pleased to see a change in what I recommend and talk about.

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=650

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=683

The above links are the first 2 parts of my show report and I have 10 more submissions yet to be posted. I had a couple of weaker rooms here but there will be some big raves coming of a variety of gear at all sorts of prices. People will be surprised by some of things that I liked - some stuff was great and one speaker made my top 5 and previously I was pretty negative about.

[Mr Peabody]

As in CJ's case, why bother showing up if you aren't going to play something :(