Need quick advice!!!!

[dvjorge]

Hi guys,

A Pawn Shop near my home is selling me a Krell KAV-250 A for $900.00. They also have the Definitive Tech BP- 7002 for $700.00 (pair) Both are in mint condition. I don't need more speakers but the Krell has been in my head all day. What do you think???


Thanks.

[harley .guy07]

I think it seems like a very good deal since I have seen prices for this unit used online for above 1500 bucks at the minimum and the reviews of this unit are favorable. I am not sure what speakers you are using but Krell has its fans and has people that don't think so much of them. I myself really like them from the models that I have heard and I think for this price you could be very happy with this unit. there are quite a few people on here that like krell and you as well might be one too.

[dvjorge]

My main speakers are Paradigm Studio 100 V2. I love them but I don't have power amplifier for them. I run them with an old Yamaha RXV-800 A/V receiver. I am going to offer the guy $700 cash for the Krell still a lot of money for me now. I couldn't move the Krell from the floor. It is 140 pounds.

[Mr Peabody]

First of all you had better snag that amp, it will be a keeper. You'll know why when you experience the power and precision. Are you sure it's a kav? I didn't think the stereo amp was that heavy. I wonder if it's a ksa or the 5x250 kav.

Yeah the kav is about 50 lbs. Either you need to work out or that amp is even a better find than you thought :) http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:F4hXsgItZ_kJ:www.krellonline.com/assets/support/KAV250A3_V992_MAN.pdf+krell+kav+250a+specification s&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Looks like might be ksa250, if it is you better be at the door when that place opens. 250x2 of Krell in class A, don't even give it a second thought, just get it. http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/191krell/index3.html

What town are you in? Man, i'd love to get my hands on that. You can't even imagine what a beast that is.

[JoeE SP9]

I would listen to Mr Peabody!!!!!!!
Were I to run across a deal like that. My post would be about the fantastic score I just made.
The best price I've ever seen far a Krell 250WPC amp (KSA-250) was around $2000.

[cjpremierfour]

Mr Peabody is right about the weight. The KAV 250 was @ 50 pounds, what you may have seen is the KSA 250. It is VERY large and heavy with heat sinks on both sides. If that's the unit, you should have already picked it up before reading this!

Good Luck!

[dvjorge]

My mistake the amp is 43 pounds. KAV 250 A.

[harley .guy07]

I think either of the Krells mentioned above would make your studio 100's sound awesome but the KSA would be that much better. I know either of them would make your yamaha receivers power amp section sound like a boom box amp in comparison as far as sound quality and overall dynamics. Studio 100's need a lot of power to get the most of them and a Krell power amp would do just that. If I were you I would camp out at the front door of the pawn shop and be there when the guy shows up for business and then buy the unit as quickly as possible then go have yourself a healthy breakfast because you are going to be in for a life changing event when you hook that thing up to your Paradigms.

[Mr Peabody]

Even the kav-250a is well worth $900.00. It was in production for many years, not sure what retail was when discontinued but it had to be over $3k. Look at www.audiogon.com you won't see them that cheap. We're talking 250 watts into 8 ohms and 500 into 4 ohms. I didn't realize it but I thought browsing the owner manual (see link in prior post) the 250a could be bridged to 1,000.00. The kav-250a was Krell's base model separate amp but Krell's base starts where most leave off. It may be more than you were looking to spend but this piece you can keep. It would take quite a lay out of expense to better it.

[dvjorge]

Guys, I know you are right but things show up when you aren't prepared for that. Anyway, according to the guy at the pawn, the amp has been there for more than 3 months. It may be there 3 more months or 3 more days. Who knows??? He told me the owner is going to drop the price 20% more next month if it is still there.

[Mr Peabody]

I guess most pawn shop clients aren't your typical Krell user. Will the pawn shop forward your offer? That would be a great amp for you to get your hands on.

[RGA]

Pawn shops typically go with blue book. You would be surprised at what stuff is actually worth. On another board someone was attacking me for discrediting McIntosh when I said that Soundhounds in Victoria sold a perfect condition MA 7000 for $2,000. It retails in the $8800.00 range and is a current model. Someone even phoned Soundhounds to confirm.

No "good deal" is a deal if you don't like the sound of the amp. I can think of piles of amps for $900 used that I would buy over the Krell which to me make pretty unlistenable sterile sounding gear. The plus side is that if you buy it and you don't like it you can always probably sell it for what you bought or in many cases more than you paid because someone will overpay for "name" gear - or even "Naim" gear.

Start looking around at amps you can buy used for $900 and frankly I think you can do better. Check out companies like Rogue Audio and Mystere. And for the best sounding SS I have ever heard is from a company called Technical Brain. But you are not getting one used for $900 or probably maybe used for $29,000??

For $900 and considerably less you can also find some decent separates or just plain more musical integrated amp for $300 - $400. My dealer had a Sugden integrated for $350, an ARC for $350, even Arcam's Delta 290P power amp for $250 and add a better dedicated preamp you could probably get further on $900 than brittle highly overrated SS sound - and as a bonus you may find something that won't catch fire.

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, you are predjudice against Krell and talking out of your butt. The OP has Studio
100's and the Krell would be excellent. Your Sugden or the Arcam would go up in flames wile the Krell was just smiling. Regardless of your tube biases, pardon the pun, Krell is one of the best and strongest amps in the world. I've had Krell for years, it's been totally reliable and not a bit fatiguing. Frankly, it is your Krell bashing that can't allow me to respect your reviews or opinions on gear. I think you like music to sound like warm mush and wouldn't know good sound if you did hear it. I like and own Krell, John Michael owns it and likes Krell,despite your warnings. Florian uses it on his Apogees because they have the power to drive them and he uses them on the tweeters as well. If they were "brittle" or harsh I don't think one would put them on tweeters. I don't see how any one in good conscience could recommend a 100 Arcam amp which is more like 50 watts into 8 ohms over a Krell, any Krell. And, I happen to like Arcam, have owned Arcam and recommend them for the right job and person. There's no guarantee this person will like Krell but to slander it and recommend amps that can't do the job is irresponsible. I personally have something different in my main system but I still respect Krell for what they can do. I have yet to hear an amp to match Krell's power and quickness in transient response. And, save it, because I don't believe for a minute your Audio Note amp can.

To bring up "going up in flames" was immature of you. However, it brings up a good point. You could have been honest about it. First of all the amps on the recall were over ten years old and it was a small number of amps that had a problem which were used by idiots. Idiots because the amps must have been misused to create the problem. Krell should be commended for even doing the recall. My amp was on the list. When I think of how hard I drove my amp I can't imagine what was done to those that had a problem. All the fix was is replacing a couple fuses. Shame on Krell for not fully computing the idiot factor.

The kav-250a was on the list as well. If the owner has not taken Krell up on the recall, then if you buy it send Krell the serial number, if it's on the list they will pay you $150.00 for replacing the fuses. This would make the amp even a better buy. They send you the fuses with a certificate to sign and send back. Once they receive it they will send you a check. It does take several weeks to receive but it may be quicker since the initial rush is over. Also, before buying hook it up to make sure all is well.

[harley .guy07]

There again Mr. Peabody beat me to it and explained it better than I could anyway probably. But yes I agree with Mr. Peabody and the fact that he owns some tube gear but he is not so damn partial that he downs every piece of SS equipment he comes across. I also agree that either of the Krell amps will do well with the studio 100's. I have heard Krell on Paradigm reference series speakers before and it was a good thing.

[RGA]

I am not partial to Krell because on every system I have heard it on the match has been a poor one. Unlike you I have auditioned both SET and Krell - and if you think Krell is good on transients you need to get out there more. I tend to like tubes more because tubes generally sound a helluva lot better than comparable SS amps (and judging by most companies who were showing loudspeakers they tend to agree). That said there are some fine SS amplifiers - my belief is that you can get better or "as good" SS than Krell for considerably less money - better a tube preamp and SS power amp for under $900 is easily attained. The Studio 100 and most loudspeakers are easily driven with 30-60 watts if the power supply is a good one. Some of the loudest, fastest, tightest, and "best" rooms at CES were tube driven. One panel maker babbling on about his 1000 watt power amp and why you need it to play loud was laughable. I felt like saying umm - maybe you should close your door for 20 minutes walk to the end of the hall and listen to what a two way box and 20 watt 211 based amplifier is doing before you start telling people you need 1000 watts to have shouty non cohesive sound that can't play as loud. Maybe to make his inefficient speaker play remotely decently he needed kilowatt amps but...

One speaker was using Heed Amplifiers which are SS 35 watts driving a pair of two way Trenner and Friedl RA Box speakers and the sound pressure and bass rivaled and frankly beat the ever loving crap out of virtually everything at CES with their bazillian watt amplifiers. And it sounded quite excellent. Granted the T&F speakers were not cheap - don't know about Heed's front end prices.

The point is that in my opinion very similar sound can be had used for considerably less money - and if one actually auditions stuff outside a small window of gear they will come across it. Single ended amplifiers typically live in the transient and decay worlds - their biggest downfall is lack of power for tough to drive loudspeakers - but then fortunately most of the best loudspeakers tend not to be very tough to drive and if you're in the camp that it must be a tough to drive speaker there are still terrific high power tube amps and SS amps on the market. Technical Brain is one such SS amp that truly possesses un-amplifier sound and was getting instrumentation eerily correct.

As for the fire comment - well it had to be noted that "by the way if you buy this amp you may have to go through the hassle of the recall." Yes it's good that Krell adressed the problem and took action - but then shouldn't they? Blaming the owner for using the amplifier seems odd. How did they abuse it - by turning it on and playing hard to drive speakers really loud - isn't that why people buy Krell - because it's "supposed" to play hard to drive speakers real loud?

[E-Stat]

I would listen to Mr Peabody!!!!!!!
Were I to run across a deal like that. My post would be about the fantastic score I just made.
The best price I've ever seen far a Krell 250WPC amp (KSA-250) was around $2000.
Note that you are not talking about the same amplifier. There is indeed a KAV-250 and it is not the same beast as the KSA-250. KAV is their entry product line. First of all, it weighs only 50 lbs, not 125 like the KSA flavor. The heat sinks are far smaller and they are internal to the amp, not hanging out the sides like the KSA. There are pictures of both on Agon (actually, the KAV is the similar three channel model). The KAV is also subject to the fuse recall (use 8a instead of 12a) and perhaps the owner could get the $100 rebate offered by Krell.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

E-stat, I think you missed some posts, start from the beginning. No one said the kav and ksa were the same, in fact, we were pointing out the difference. The kav is still a deal at $900.00. I'd take it.

RGA, again you are talking nonsense. I helped a guy with 100's who was vertically biamping with two NAd 50x2 amps. According to you this would have been adequate. For low level it was but once we needed more volume they quickly ran out of steam. Even at low level they lacked bottom end. Once I put my former Adcom gfa-5500, 200x2, under the bass and bridged his amps one on each top end then we had some volume. We quit before the amps ran out of steam. Of course, that was collectively about 600 watts. The kav-250a does 500 into 4 ohms and is a much better amp than the 5500.

The majority of loudspeakers are inefficient. All the efficient speakers I've heard have all been lacking in the bottom end. You have a big head because you go around and get this stuff to review yet have a very narrow mind and selective hearing.

[E-Stat]

E-stat, I think you missed some posts, start from the beginning. No one said the kav and ksa were the same, in fact, we were pointing out the difference. The kav is still a deal at $900.00.
Sorry. I responded to Joe's comments. He, too was confused.

rw

[RGA]

E-stat, I think you missed some posts, start from the beginning. No one said the kav and ksa were the same, in fact, we were pointing out the difference. The kav is still a deal at $900.00. I'd take it.

RGA, again you are talking nonsense. I helped a guy with 100's who was vertically biamping with two NAd 50x2 amps. According to you this would have been adequate. For low level it was but once we needed more volume they quickly ran out of steam. Even at low level they lacked bottom end. Once I put my former Adcom gfa-5500, 200x2, under the bass and bridged his amps one on each top end then we had some volume. We quit before the amps ran out of steam. Of course, that was collectively about 600 watts. The kav-250a does 500 into 4 ohms and is a much better amp than the 5500.

The majority of loudspeakers are inefficient. All the efficient speakers I've heard have all been lacking in the bottom end. You have a big head because you go around and get this stuff to review yet have a very narrow mind and selective hearing.

So you point to NAD as the basis of comparison?

The fact is really simple to understand. To get a 3db increase in a loudspeaker you need twice the power - 50 watts - then you need 100watts. To get a "doubling" of the "perceived" volume level you need 10 times the power (and ONLY if the speaker is capable of handling that power - in which case 500 watts).

That can be done on the speaker end by buying High efficient speakers. And if you choose wisely you don't give up the bass. I wasn't really talking about playing at supreme volume levels but even here buying carefully can get you supreme volume levels and better sound and you don't need more than 50 watts to do it - often you don't need more than 5.

The Sugden A48b had no trouble driving the Studio 100s to very loud levels with deep relatively tuneful bass - such as the 100's are capable of anyway. Yes I agree to get higher volume levels a big power amp would obviously desirable but more power usually means more negative feedback and worse sound. I'll sacrifice ultimate volume level for better quality anyday - and with a better loudspeaker maker than paradigm - one doesn't have to sacrifice volume either.

I'm not slagging high power SS - it can be done well so can low power SS - I just think one can get better sound for less money than what Krell has to offer. But then I'm not a fan of the Studio 100 either - I would avoid both.

I heard systems using bigger cabinets and 1000 watt amplifiers and the audiofederation nailed the point. And there were others using low power like Trenner and Friedl that would blow you into the next room. Two way box with low power. http://spintricity.com/64/6794/jan-2010/ces-2010---venetian-floor-30-wing-300-continued-2#/64/6876/jan-2010/ces-2010---audio-note (and more to the point unlike the big Wilson and Focal - this room used a 20 watt amp not a kilowatt amp needed to get the Wilson and Focals from doing anything.

Interestingly even Dynaudio your favorite loudspeaker maker was using Octave TUBE hybrid gear and if you have the opportunity you may want to look into them as an upgrade to Krell.

The Krell will drive the speakers it is just that one is, IMO, paying a premium for the big marketing and the name, over results. Still he can probably sell it for what he pays for it if he likes it so it's not a terrible gamble. I'd just look at something for sound quality rather than how it slams at ridiculous levels.

[Mr Peabody]

Dynaudio will be distributing Octave that's why they were using them. I'm looking forward to hearing Octave they look good. They also are expensive. My main system is what is in my signature. Krell has been relegated to my second system or an occasional rotation back.

[harley .guy07]

RGA I know you look down on Paradigm speakers but I believe that they are very good concidering the price class of their products. And I believe plenty of people on this site would agree with me since there are a lot of people that own them or have owned them on this price. I am not saying that they are the ultimate and I even modified mine to make them way better than stock but they always seem to rate well within their price class. I just think there are some people out there that are very closed minded and think that what their opinion of good audio should be everyone's and with every persons hearing being different and perception of what they think sounds good that is not the case. And that is why there are a lot of audio designers and brands in the high end world because there are so many people that have different views of audio perfection. If we are to keep this hobby alive for the next few generations to enjoy then close mindedness is not needed or wanted.

[Mr Peabody]

The thing is if SET amps and high efficient horn speakers are the way to go you'd think more audio shops would carry these types of set ups. There must be a reason they do not. Feel free to draw your own conclusion. E-stat travels a lot he may know where some are but I've yet to wander into one who does in my journeys. Cary is probably the best known, maybe I'll see where the closest dealer is for fun.

[harley .guy07]

In my opinion there are people out there that have a different view of what sound reproduction should be like and these products interest them. I personally have studied speaker designs and know the strengths and weaknesses of horn speakers and I myself have not heard a pair that I liked. And most recording studios do not use speakers of this type for their mastering of the recording and I would think if these units were that damn good then you would see them used more professionally in the studio environment. I know horns are efficient by designs and able to be powered by amps with small output power but there are also weaknesses to horns that I have a problem looking past. and I personally like a fair amount of power in my systems for dynamics and balance and personally think speakers with better crossovers and better drivers need a little more power than the standard for the best results.

[RGA]

There are several arguments here regarding what is popular and what is good. They're not the same and please think it through before you draw conclusions - McDonalds and Burger King make a great formula hamburger and they sell to the masses because they're cheap and they're consistent - but Gordon Ramsey will make you a much better hamburger - and it will cost him more to make it and cost you more to buy it. It may not have all the features of guys in clown suits and bright colours and glossy packaging but it will be a better hamburger. It won't sell the masses in great numbers because of the price and because of the time factor and the lack of skill level around the country to make them.

It is not difficult to see the reasons that SET and High Efficiency speakers (which are not necessarily horns by the way) are not popular with the masses - they require WORK from their owners and they tend to be sold at prices that are far higher than the mainstream will pay. A lack of features, lack or remotes most often, and smaller production numbers limit the appeal - there is far more money in sand amps which costs a fraction to build use off the shelf parts, and can be slapped together on an assembly line with piles of features for a low price. The last thing most dealers want to deal with is a customer coming back needing a tube or teaching them to bias amplifiers.

From a studio perspective several of the best studios still use tube amplifiers - Chesky Records. But there is a financial consideration to use SS and that is downtime - tubes blow and they require replacement - sonics will take a back seat every time to money in most average recording studios - and since so very many people whine and complain that "most recordings suck" maybe they should stop to think that this is because of the lousy solid state gear and inept speakers being used in most of these recording studios.

Audio Shops are interested in selling products - very few carry the best because it's the best - they carry what will line their pockets with cold hard green. Bigger ones may carry a line they really like despite a lack of sales but not many.

Single Ended low powered amps don't really require horns or even particularly high sensitivity - they require relatively flat loads - and that can be done with 90-93db speakers.

Cary makes some nice sounding amps - they're not my first choice to "represent" SETs - there is more diversity in the sound of SETs than from Solid State makers.

[harley .guy07]

I was not trying to say that all high efficiency speakers are of the horn variety because there a wide variety of full range driver speakers among other designs that are efficient but to make a claim that studios suffer audio wise because they use solid state amps instead of tubes is a bold statement mostly for the fact that there are quite a few solid state amps out there that are as good as tube amps and it is an argument that has not been won in either direction since solid state electronics came into the audio world many years ago. I do know that you are a reviewer and get to see a lot of more gear than I do but to be close minded in saying that the only amps or preamps to go with are tube to me is a statement I have heard before many times and while I don't particularly have higher end equipment right now I have been around quite a bit of high end stuff and there are plenty of high end solid state products out there that are very good. I do not bias myself on a particular design or only tube or solid state just because they are what they are. I am open minded and just let my ears do the work and that lets me know how good it is. I am a musician also as a hobby and have worked with several different kinds of gear in that area as well and know that the audio fix isn't always just go tube and you will be good. I am not trying to start an argument that never ends here I am just saying that there are good products in both categories and Mr. peabody like a lot of audiophiles have more than one system in his home and uses both solid state and tube electronics and he sees the good in both just like I do. I have heard good from both and I tend to keep my mind more open to either format being a good way to go in different situations. I have a friend that has a studio and he has used tube gear for a long time and he finally went to solid state not only for its reliability but because he found solid state gear that he prefers to tube gear that he has ran for years and he has used several different brands of amps. And I have heard his studio setup several times and i agree that his solid state gear is very impressive and gives the sound that he needs to bring out the sound that he needs to make good studio recordings. I think compression and other elements have made studio recordings sound bad as of recent more than there choice of tube or solid state.

[Mr Peabody]

dvjorge, what town are you in? If you aren't interested in that Krell amp can you PM me a phone number to the pawn shop?

[RGA]

I was not trying to say that all high efficiency speakers are of the horn variety because there a wide variety of full range driver speakers among other designs that are efficient but to make a claim that studios suffer audio wise because they use solid state amps instead of tubes is a bold statement mostly for the fact that there are quite a few solid state amps out there that are as good as tube amps and it is an argument that has not been won in either direction since solid state electronics came into the audio world many years ago. I do know that you are a reviewer and get to see a lot of more gear than I do but to be close minded in saying that the only amps or preamps to go with are tube to me is a statement I have heard before many times and while I don't particularly have higher end equipment right now I have been around quite a bit of high end stuff and there are plenty of high end solid state products out there that are very good. I do not bias myself on a particular design or only tube or solid state just because they are what they are. I am open minded and just let my ears do the work and that lets me know how good it is. I am a musician also as a hobby and have worked with several different kinds of gear in that area as well and know that the audio fix isn't always just go tube and you will be good. I am not trying to start an argument that never ends here I am just saying that there are good products in both categories and Mr. peabody like a lot of audiophiles have more than one system in his home and uses both solid state and tube electronics and he sees the good in both just like I do. I have heard good from both and I tend to keep my mind more open to either format being a good way to go in different situations. I have a friend that has a studio and he has used tube gear for a long time and he finally went to solid state not only for its reliability but because he found solid state gear that he prefers to tube gear that he has ran for years and he has used several different brands of amps. And I have heard his studio setup several times and i agree that his solid state gear is very impressive and gives the sound that he needs to bring out the sound that he needs to make good studio recordings. I think compression and other elements have made studio recordings sound bad as of recent more than there choice of tube or solid state.

I didn't say all tube amps were better than all solid state amps - there are good and bad of both. The fact that any given solid state amp better any given tube amp however doesn't mean that tubes are inferior. Solid State when it came out was terrible. The appeal of it was never about sound quality but all about reliability, running cool, and physical size and weight. Read the first three paragraphs of this article to see that even the top SS designers making far more expensive SS amps chose a tube amp over their own products when they could not see what they were listening to http://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/#

At the budget end of the spectrum SS rules the day and Paradigm is fine - it's probably as good as most anything else in its price class and those are not the products that I have any problem with. The Version 2 series of the Studio line was good value - my beef was the 100V3 where the price went up over 30% and the sound was worse.

I like the Sugden A21a solid State amp over every tube amp I have tried under $2,000 with the exception of a kit - but that's not apples to apples.

Looking at what the tougher to drive speaker companies brought to CES it was interesting that most of them used tube amps - Reference 3a, Wilson, Sonus Faber (granted 600 watts per channel tube amps), Dynaudio, Acapella etc. Even the two best panel/planar demos used VAC and Mystere tube amps on their speakers. The panels that didn't sounded rather bad.

I enjoyed SS too - Heed, Technical Brain, but both are a little differently designed than your usual - I didn't know that until after I heard them. Pass Labs was also in one of the better rooms as was Boulder.

I'm not anti-SS - I'm just far picker than I used to be. Bryston got me interested in higher end audio - and 20 years later and I can barely listen to Bryston.

[poppachubby]

I have been reading this discussion with much interest. Thanks for each side of the coin. I am making the change to tubes shortly. I will be picking up my revamped Golden Tube SE-40 and hopefully never looking back...

[Ajani]

I didn't say all tube amps were better than all solid state amps - there are good and bad of both. The fact that any given solid state amp better any given tube amp however doesn't mean that tubes are inferior. Solid State when it came out was terrible. The appeal of it was never about sound quality but all about reliability, running cool, and physical size and weight. Read the first three paragraphs of this article to see that even the top SS designers making far more expensive SS amps chose a tube amp over their own products when they could not see what they were listening to http://www.stereophile.com/reference/70/#

At the budget end of the spectrum SS rules the day and Paradigm is fine - it's probably as good as most anything else in its price class and those are not the products that I have any problem with. The Version 2 series of the Studio line was good value - my beef was the 100V3 where the price went up over 30% and the sound was worse.

I like the Sugden A21a solid State amp over every tube amp I have tried under $2,000 with the exception of a kit - but that's not apples to apples.

Looking at what the tougher to drive speaker companies brought to CES it was interesting that most of them used tube amps - Reference 3a, Wilson, Sonus Faber (granted 600 watts per channel tube amps), Dynaudio, Acapella etc. Even the two best panel/planar demos used VAC and Mystere tube amps on their speakers. The panels that didn't sounded rather bad.

I enjoyed SS too - Heed, Technical Brain, but both are a little differently designed than your usual - I didn't know that until after I heard them. Pass Labs was also in one of the better rooms as was Boulder.

I'm not anti-SS - I'm just far picker than I used to be. Bryston got me interested in higher end audio - and 20 years later and I can barely listen to Bryston.

RGA, this is a just a suggestion, but I really think your case would be better made if you toned it down a bit...

If I'm considering buying new speakers to upgrade from X brand that I own and a poster suggests Y brand, because according to him "X brand sounds horrid and makes his ears bleed"... then if I actually like X brand, his opinion goes to the bottom of the pile of suggestions, as he clearly has totally different taste from me...

The same applies to SS versus Tubes, Digital versus Analog... If I say that all Digital products sound harsh, then just about no one who likes the sound of their CD player is going to take my opinion seriously...

So making it clear that you have utter contempt and disdain for the sound of Krell, B&W, Bryston etc... only alienates you from a large number of audiophiles... and means they are less likely to take your suggestions about Audio Note, etc... seriously...

Also, since Bryston started you on the Hi-Fi journey, then presumably you must have liked their products at the time... So is it not conceivable that other persons genuinely like Bryston's gear?

Finally, since Audio Note has been around for quite some time and I'm sure many reviewers have heard their setups, is it not possible that some of these persons preferred the sound of Krell, B&W, Bryston etc to Audio Note?

[Feanor]

RGA, this is a just a suggestion, but I really think your case would be better made if you toned it down a bit...

If I'm considering buying new speakers to upgrade from X brand that I own and a poster suggests Y brand, because according to him "X brand sounds horrid and makes his ears bleed"... then if I actually like X brand, his opinion goes to the bottom of the pile of suggestions, as he clearly has totally different taste from me...

...
It needed to be said. :p

[RGA]

RGA, this is a just a suggestion, but I really think your case would be better made if you toned it down a bit...

If I'm considering buying new speakers to upgrade from X brand that I own and a poster suggests Y brand, because according to him "X brand sounds horrid and makes his ears bleed"... then if I actually like X brand, his opinion goes to the bottom of the pile of suggestions, as he clearly has totally different taste from me...

The same applies to SS versus Tubes, Digital versus Analog... If I say that all Digital products sound harsh, then just about no one who likes the sound of their CD player is going to take my opinion seriously...

So making it clear that you have utter contempt and disdain for the sound of Krell, B&W, Bryston etc... only alienates you from a large number of audiophiles... and means they are less likely to take your suggestions about Audio Note, etc... seriously...

Also, since Bryston started you on the Hi-Fi journey, then presumably you must have liked their products at the time... So is it not conceivable that other persons genuinely like Bryston's gear?

Finally, since Audio Note has been around for quite some time and I'm sure many reviewers have heard their setups, is it not possible that some of these persons preferred the sound of Krell, B&W, Bryston etc to Audio Note?

I don't think I was coming across here with utter contempt for the Krell or Paradigm or Bryston - no they're not my favorites but people are quite happy to spend other people's money. Now maybe $900 is nothing to you but it is a lot of money to me - and when I see someone about to spend $900 for an amp on a shelf - because it happens to be a well marketed product and I happen to think you could find just as good if not better on the used market for $300 then I don't want people having to read between the lines guessing what I really think about a product.

Paradigm's monitor line is fine enough and so are comparable B&W's and Bryston for me at least offers great service and warranty and it's not bad - but again I think you pay a very healthy premium for the warranty not unlike buying a warranty at Best Buy or Future Shop - but you don't get to choose whether you want to pay the premium or not. And Odyssey is offering IMO better sound for half the price and also have 20 year warranties.

People want reviewers to have opinions and tell it like it is - but when they do people then are outraged. Why? Because they never thought that their amp or speaker would get hit. There are plenty of so-so to worse reviews of Bryston - The last issue of Stereophile ripped the 7bSST on a number of fronts. I would never deliberately go after a product in a review - I try to give everything the biggest benefit of a doubt I can give.

It's not that the Krell is a bad amp - opinions on sound vary - I just think you can get similar or the same or better for considerably less. The OP was looking at a 4B for $550 - I think people could or should be able to beat the Krell with a 4b and a used preamp - and then he's got separates. $900 on the used market can a long long way.

You are correct that sometimes I use a healthy dose of hyperbole to get the point across so there is no mistake. Yes I was a Bryston and B&W guy starting out. I get their appeal. But having everyone go off the cliff with me is not desirable. I was open minded enough to read and listen to the arguments on forums who told me to look at off the beaten path brands and I put my ego in check and said "you were right" and then moved in that direction.

Lastly, I understand why a lot of people - probably most - go the Bryston "like" route and B&W - they're sold in virtually every town - most audio shops don't have quality Tube high efficiency speakers so basically the vast majority or beginning audiophiles walk into a store and they'll have 3-5 lines of speakers - all pretty much the same - B&W, PSB, Paradigm, Totem - they may carry a Magnepan or Martin Logan which will be completely different sounding. Most will carry a NAD or Arcam as entry level hi-fi and then some nicer SS amps - a Sim Audio, Musical Fidelity, Classe and maybe a tube amp - but not many. Some may carry a turntable line - Project of Rega - something relatively idiot proof and they marry carry a more expensive line Clearaudio or Roksan that looks great.

You walk through 5 dealers more or less carrying variations of this stuff. It's a vicious cycle - the big companies with the big advertising are the ones that people seek out. Dealers need to eat and tubes and turntables are not the profit areas despite quality of sound. Then every dealer is competing with every other dealer in town and so you have a bunch of stuff that while it is certainly "good" it's just not overly exciting. The magazines fall prey to the same thing - they are in print or get advertising but it's the BIG companies that can afford the advertising - and the magazines are pressured to review their gear.

Unfortunately, I am in the camp that believes that not everything is great - and that it's all a matter of taste. I think there is a part of it that is taste but most people here know a Honda Fit is a good automobile but most of us also know that Ferrari is in a whole other league. But if all you ever drive is Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Mazda 3 then yes all three are probably good - all three we would agree are probably good and everyone here would have our view of which of the three is a personal favorite. But if the Toyota Yaris was priced at $200,000 then someone might grumble and say gee you know what the Fit is pretty much the same for $15,000 so where is the value? And it does a disservice to stuff that is pricey and actually lives up to the price.

I do agree with you that I lose some people with the hard line in the sand view. I guess though I am sick of seeing great reviews for "everything" because what that ends up doing is masking the stuff that is out there that truly deserves the great review. In other words if we give something that is average a great review and we give great reviews to the truly great stuff then how will any reader know how to distinguish them?

I think the whole point is to have people not follow in the same footsteps and attempt to possibly save them some money in the future. I liked B&W and Bryston and then found a lot better and so do several others - here's a thought instead of someone else spending $10,000 and then getting killed on the resale why not have them start one step ahead by spending that $10k on a bit better the first time around. Isn't that the point of forums? Otherwise we're just doing what most magazines do - tell people about the heavily advertised stuff.

I will give an example - I auditioned Martin Logan's SummitX with Mystere front end - Mystere is actually quite affordable as High end goes and I have never ever heard Martin Logan sound so good. EVER - not even remotely close and I have heard the big Podigy with top Bryston kit. Mystere is a tube amp company in the 50-55watt range - something that you would not expect to see running ML - big volume big bass and the best integration I have ever heard from a hybrid panel. With the Bryston stuff the speakers sound atrocious and it does a disservice to the speakers. I auditioned Krell with Wilson - dreadful - but Rogue Audio with Wilson - and suddenly Wilson sounded like all the hype wasn't just hype after all - truly great sound. Then you go back through the years and you start adding up all the times a good tube amp made a speaker that usually sounded terrible very very good.

This is partly hyperbole too - because no it's not that Bryston was terrible with ML - no - it's just that the Mystere was SOOO much better than when you look back you say gee how did I like that Bryston/ML. When you own a B&W TV it's the best thing in the world then colour comes out and you "just can't go back" and now HD flatscreen 50 inch plasma - it's real tough to go back and think that at one time great 27 inch tube tv with the pink spot is all that good.

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting you claim Odyssey is better than Bryston, I been emailing with a dealer on few different amps wanting something in a budget as back up in case something happened to one of my CJ's and it had to be down while ordering tubes or something. Odyssey caught my eye because of all the buzz and the $1100.00 retail. Well the Odyssey was described to me as "mediocre". I trust this guy totally. There's been times such as this one he could have sold me something and was honest with his opinion. I've also been happy with his recs on going ahead and trying something.

No need to address your post in it's totality the fact you said you could buy an amp for $300.00, used or otherwise, to beat the 250a is enough to show any one with audio sense you are totally insane.

Oddly, we agree on something. Martin Logan is magic with a good tube amp. I'd love to hear E-stat's VTL's on his stats. If I had another room to separate HT and stereo my CJ gear would be running ML's. Sure their may be a few flaws but that midrange would be ecstasy.

[Ajani]

Interesting you claim Odyssey is better than Bryston, I been emailing with a dealer on few different amps wanting something in a budget as back up in case something happened to one of my CJ's and it had to be down while ordering tubes or something. Odyssey caught my eye because of all the buzz and the $1100.00 retail. Well the Odyssey was described to me as "mediocre". I trust this guy totally. There's been times such as this one he could have sold me something and was honest with his opinion. I've also been happy with his recs on going ahead and trying something.

I'm sure that based on your experience your dealer is honest about his opinions and I guess his advice has always been spot on for you... But in the case of Odyssey, considering they have a 30 day money back guarantee, you could try them out anyway and form your own opinion... Considering the massive amount of positive user and pro reviews, I don't think you should dismiss them that quickly....

[poppachubby]

RGA your bit about dealer's is spot on. The thing is, no one knows this better than the dealer's themselves.

[Ajani]

I don't think I was coming across here with utter contempt for the Krell or Paradigm or Bryston - no they're not my favorites but people are quite happy to spend other people's money. Now maybe $900 is nothing to you but it is a lot of money to me - and when I see someone about to spend $900 for an amp on a shelf - because it happens to be a well marketed product and I happen to think you could find just as good if not better on the used market for $300 then I don't want people having to read between the lines guessing what I really think about a product.

Paradigm's monitor line is fine enough and so are comparable B&W's and Bryston for me at least offers great service and warranty and it's not bad - but again I think you pay a very healthy premium for the warranty not unlike buying a warranty at Best Buy or Future Shop - but you don't get to choose whether you want to pay the premium or not. And Odyssey is offering IMO better sound for half the price and also have 20 year warranties.

People want reviewers to have opinions and tell it like it is - but when they do people then are outraged. Why? Because they never thought that their amp or speaker would get hit. There are plenty of so-so to worse reviews of Bryston - The last issue of Stereophile ripped the 7bSST on a number of fronts. I would never deliberately go after a product in a review - I try to give everything the biggest benefit of a doubt I can give.

It's not that the Krell is a bad amp - opinions on sound vary - I just think you can get similar or the same or better for considerably less. The OP was looking at a 4B for $550 - I think people could or should be able to beat the Krell with a 4b and a used preamp - and then he's got separates. $900 on the used market can a long long way.

You are correct that sometimes I use a healthy dose of hyperbole to get the point across so there is no mistake. Yes I was a Bryston and B&W guy starting out. I get their appeal. But having everyone go off the cliff with me is not desirable. I was open minded enough to read and listen to the arguments on forums who told me to look at off the beaten path brands and I put my ego in check and said "you were right" and then moved in that direction.

Lastly, I understand why a lot of people - probably most - go the Bryston "like" route and B&W - they're sold in virtually every town - most audio shops don't have quality Tube high efficiency speakers so basically the vast majority or beginning audiophiles walk into a store and they'll have 3-5 lines of speakers - all pretty much the same - B&W, PSB, Paradigm, Totem - they may carry a Magnepan or Martin Logan which will be completely different sounding. Most will carry a NAD or Arcam as entry level hi-fi and then some nicer SS amps - a Sim Audio, Musical Fidelity, Classe and maybe a tube amp - but not many. Some may carry a turntable line - Project of Rega - something relatively idiot proof and they marry carry a more expensive line Clearaudio or Roksan that looks great.

You walk through 5 dealers more or less carrying variations of this stuff. It's a vicious cycle - the big companies with the big advertising are the ones that people seek out. Dealers need to eat and tubes and turntables are not the profit areas despite quality of sound. Then every dealer is competing with every other dealer in town and so you have a bunch of stuff that while it is certainly "good" it's just not overly exciting. The magazines fall prey to the same thing - they are in print or get advertising but it's the BIG companies that can afford the advertising - and the magazines are pressured to review their gear.

Unfortunately, I am in the camp that believes that not everything is great - and that it's all a matter of taste. I think there is a part of it that is taste but most people here know a Honda Fit is a good automobile but most of us also know that Ferrari is in a whole other league. But if all you ever drive is Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Mazda 3 then yes all three are probably good - all three we would agree are probably good and everyone here would have our view of which of the three is a personal favorite. But if the Toyota Yaris was priced at $200,000 then someone might grumble and say gee you know what the Fit is pretty much the same for $15,000 so where is the value? And it does a disservice to stuff that is pricey and actually lives up to the price.

I do agree with you that I lose some people with the hard line in the sand view. I guess though I am sick of seeing great reviews for "everything" because what that ends up doing is masking the stuff that is out there that truly deserves the great review. In other words if we give something that is average a great review and we give great reviews to the truly great stuff then how will any reader know how to distinguish them?

I think the whole point is to have people not follow in the same footsteps and attempt to possibly save them some money in the future. I liked B&W and Bryston and then found a lot better and so do several others - here's a thought instead of someone else spending $10,000 and then getting killed on the resale why not have them start one step ahead by spending that $10k on a bit better the first time around. Isn't that the point of forums? Otherwise we're just doing what most magazines do - tell people about the heavily advertised stuff.

I will give an example - I auditioned Martin Logan's SummitX with Mystere front end - Mystere is actually quite affordable as High end goes and I have never ever heard Martin Logan sound so good. EVER - not even remotely close and I have heard the big Podigy with top Bryston kit. Mystere is a tube amp company in the 50-55watt range - something that you would not expect to see running ML - big volume big bass and the best integration I have ever heard from a hybrid panel. With the Bryston stuff the speakers sound atrocious and it does a disservice to the speakers. I auditioned Krell with Wilson - dreadful - but Rogue Audio with Wilson - and suddenly Wilson sounded like all the hype wasn't just hype after all - truly great sound. Then you go back through the years and you start adding up all the times a good tube amp made a speaker that usually sounded terrible very very good.

This is partly hyperbole too - because no it's not that Bryston was terrible with ML - no - it's just that the Mystere was SOOO much better than when you look back you say gee how did I like that Bryston/ML. When you own a B&W TV it's the best thing in the world then colour comes out and you "just can't go back" and now HD flatscreen 50 inch plasma - it's real tough to go back and think that at one time great 27 inch tube tv with the pink spot is all that good.

First, at $900 the OP could easily resell the Krell, if he doesn't like it without losing a chunk of cash - he is not being encourage to buy a new product.

Second, you think that a Bryston 4B combo sounds better than the Krell... That may not be the case for the OP or most other persons... Your preference is not the same as fact... it is just preference...

Third, while your explanation of why dealers stock what they do is fine (people stock Bose because it sells)... Your explanation re my question of other reviewers is not realistic... Magazines will feel pressured to review products that the general audiophile community it interested in, instead of just boutique products that are often very difficult for the average person to obtain... However, that in no one explains why more reviewers don't own the products you think are so much better than the popular gear... For example, Art Dudley has raved about Audio Note in his reviews and sent the items on to John Atkinson for measurement... Why did Art buy the Audio Notes but John buy something else? That comes down to preference, not just ignorance of Audio Note's existence...

Four, I am not suggesting that you pretend that everything sounds good to you... but when you insist that Krell can be beaten for $300 as if that is fact rather than an opinion, then your view becomes as useless as the dealers who just push B&W as the best available...

[RGA]

Do people not read what I write? I am talking used to used items - The Krell at $900 is a USED item - The fact of the matter is my dealer - not a pawn shop was selling ARC integrated amps, Quads and other gear for $300-$400 - it's not like these are no name non-hifi brands. I am not saying you can buy a used Rotel RA-1 and it's better than the Krell. There is something called an "age" issue here. The ARC integrated was probably 10 years older than this Krell in question while you would probably pay the same amount for a newer NAD on the used market.

I'm not saying the Krell is bad - I just think it's bad paying $900 for a used item when if you spend less on an older unit you'll likely be further ahead.

The Bryston 4b I don't care for either - but it's $550 according to the OP and that leaves some money to buy a pretty good preamp on the used market for the remaining $350 - probably be able to get a very good 15-20 year old originally priced $2,000 preamp for $350 with ease. The preamp section is more critical.

This isn't about Audio Note - there are plenty of speakers and systems that I would be happy to live with.

As for the Odyssey - I would not really buy them for myself - it was a long time Bryston owner that made the switch and allowed me to audition the gear. Since Odyssey is a direct sales company with no dealers carrying the line I have no doubt that dealers would want people to stay away from them - there is not 40-60% mark-up on them like Bryston amplifiers.

Most reviewers actually do own products that are not mainstream. Wes Philips said this about Audio Note. Wes is a SS Dynaudio guy by the way http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/ongaku_means_ecstasy/ JA and Peter don't see eye to eye on most things audio and that's fine.

Yes there are preferences - and you're correct he could probably flip the amp for what he paid or even more than he paid if he doesn't like it. He could do that with the $350 ARC and Quad's and Sugden's too though and it sounds to me when I read the OP that $900 is a significant amount of money for him.

I just think unless you have a lot of experience with a lot of different amps I would avoid spending large cash just because of name brand appeal. Krell has fans but they also have a lot of folks who dislike them - I would suggest a less polarizing amplifier if one is basically buying it because of name brand appeal.

[Mr Peabody]

The dealer who made the Odyssey statement had some pieces in on trade so it wouldn't benefit him to down play it.

I missed the post with the 4B that would be a good deal as well. It wouldn't make sense to buy something like Arcam for $300.00 that wouldn't do the job the Krell would do. All that watt stuff you threw out we all know but it looks better on paper than it plays out in real life. I've used Arcam and Krell, the Krell would have been worth the $900.00 and $600.00 difference over an Arcam integrated.

[RGA]

But I didn't suggest Arcam did I?

Trusting a dealer is fine but umm I would rather listen to them myself - and that's the problem = lots of people have lots of opinions on stuff they've never auditioned for themselves. Odyssey sounds better for less money with a similar warranty - I have yet to meet a single person who has heard both and liked Bryston better.

Read the current issue of Stereophile and the 7BSST2. Frankly the odyssey still has a number of "bryston like" qualities that would not make me buy for music replay. But then I can say that Krell also has a number of "bryston like" qualities that it should not have for that massive price differences.

That's the trouble with most solid state amps in general - if the differences were all that massive they would be heard in a DBT - and no one can pass them which means that at best the difference are less massive than people would care to admit. The Arcam Delta 290 I owned - it has zero trouble driving the Paradigm Studio 100V2 - so unless the new models became incredibly tougher to drive I don't see the point.

The Sugden A48b IMO sounds better than the Krell or the rather expensive Musical Fidelity A3 and A300 driving the Studio 100V2. I bought the A48b based on it with the 100V2. The MF and Krell have more air and a wider stage and in some technically bombastic ways is the better amp - on vocals instrumentation and bass depth the Sugden kills them. The Krell, Mf and Bryston possess more of an "impressive" sound to be sure - the Sugden though has inner resolution and an organic sensation (daring to use the word valve-like) and a tuneful rich bottom end rather than the tight artificial sterile bottom end of the MF, Krell and brystons of the world.

Arcam? Yeah I would take the Krell over my Arcam too - not the Sugden. And this wasn't their best Sugden either. And that's partly the point - For $300 he could get the A48b but for $900 e could get some of their best separates or separates from Audio Research etc. The Studio 100 is not that tough to drive.

Yes a bigger amp pay play it to extreme volumes with more control but for the other 95% of the time I would rather have the better instrumentation, nuance and bass depth. Sugden may not have much power but tey had no frequency limiters - the a48b is quite a surprise to listen to in fact because with about 60 watts you wouldn't expect it. Granted the A48b was dumpy looking and has almost zero name brand appeal - back then they never advertised. http://listeninn.com/catalog/Integrated-Amplifier/Sold-Integrated-Amplifiers/Sugden-A48B/

These are all going to be far older than the Krell - and they're just examples. But here is an example that would IMO would have both easily enough power and considerably more musucal sound for less than half the Krell's price http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/90562-sugdenc28_pre___p28_ampcombo_/

You could get the 200 watt per channel AU51power amp with the matching preamp probably for the $900.

Granted Sugden's come around a lot less than Krell's and next to impossible therefore to audition - which is a shame.

[poppachubby]

Trusting a dealer is fine but umm I would rather listen to them myself - and that's the problem = lots of people have lots of opinions on stuff they've never auditioned for themselves.

This is correct. Infact, I think there are many people who read a review or two on a product and figure they know what it sounds like. IMO, this is wrong. Until your ears actually hear something, you know nothing.

It particularily annoys me when someone is asking about spending money on a product, and Johnny No-Experience is chiming in with his review based "knowledge". Don't get me wrong, word of mouth or reviews, when widely in agreement, can be taken as fact.

I just think some people forget about the importance of listening for oneself.

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, yes, you did suggest the Arcam in your first post. I know about listening first but neither of us wanted to waste each others time. I would take the Krell at $9900.00 I know what it can do. If the Odyssey was local I would have brought it home for sure to see what it was all about. In raving about Odyssey, they have three different levels of this amp and you need to be sure which one you are talking about. Each level occurs some internal mods.

The Octave Audio should be in town soon. Looking forward to hearing it but doubt I could ever afford any. Boulder will be here too. That is a brand only the independently wealthy can afford but I'm interested to see what that sounds like. Of course, several top line Krell are in 5 figures as well. Boulder begins in 5 figures though.

[02audionoob]

I wish I had been around when someone was selling an ARC integrated for $350.

[RGA]

Actually I mafde an error - the ARC was the SP9 preamplifier for $350 - but it retailed for $1700 new. Add that to the bryston 4b and you have $900. I was considering it but the Rotel RC 1082 IMO sounds quite a bit better and I went that route. That's the problem with "name" brands - Audio Research is deemed better because it has a certain perception while Rotel also has a certain perception. Perceptions that are not based on actual auditions with specific units. In fact the SP9 was a bad example because I found it rather dull and dead sounding. ARC doesn't really impress me either despite the praise so...

Mr. P - yes I mentioned Arcam as an example but you can right now buy Delta 290p power amps for $200 - you could buy two and run them as monoblocks - easily enough drive and power to run a 100V2 to extreme levels with total control. $400.

I'd sooner do that than buy the Bryston because the Delta series was IMO always Arcam's best sounding run - although I have not heard their current line-up but it was better than the alpha series that followed IMO (except for the cd players which were better). That would leave $500 for a used preamp. The thing is used items go for a fraction of what they sold for if you buy a little bit older (it's all out of warranty anyway in most cases) so I suppose my only issue is the $900. But anyway - that is of course for the OP to decide - I just want to throw out some more options. With possibly having to deal with a recall - to me it's just not worth the hassle.

[02audionoob]

Actually I mafde an error - the ARC was the SP9 preamplifier for $350 - but it retailed for $1700 new. Add that to the bryston 4b and you have $900. I was considering it but the Rotel RC 1082 IMO sounds quite a bit better and I went that route. That's the problem with "name" brands - Audio Research is deemed better because it has a certain perception while Rotel also has a certain perception. Perceptions that are not based on actual auditions with specific units.

Surely Rotel has been around enough so that there's some measure of truth to its perception. To the average budget-minded audiophile, I thought Rotel is one of the name brands. I remember my college roommate had a Rotel system that impressed me. But then I was also impressed with his Mach One speakers.

[RGA]

Well I think that Rotel isn't perceived to be as good as some of their gear really is. For instance my dealer carries both Rotel and Bryston - ask any one of the guys there which one they think sounds better and they will answer a resounding Rotel. But most people would say that Bryston is the higher end brand - higher priced and a better warranty but Rotel because it is affordable is looked down upon in that it is considered mid-fi.

Granted Rotel does make lower priced mid-fi but they have impressed me over the last few years in their respective price classes. Certainly they're a big name in the audio world but I think they're a bit better than they get credit for when names start rolling around. I like the sound of the RA-1 as much as I like the B60 - but the difference is that the B60 runds for nearly 4 times the price. It's FAR better built but for 4 times the money and just listening - it's really tough to make the case for it. If the Rotel breaks down you could buy a new one - 4 times. Sure it's a little bright and two dimensional sounding - but so is the B60. I have always found Rotel a little hit and miss sounding.

I think the idea is to try and be a bargain hunter. Check out this preamp fro $1100 new - http://grantfidelity.com/site/Shengya_CV15

Now these guys make hugely musical pieces - on the used market this thing will go for about $400 - $500 and add a couple of Arcam or Rotel power amps and you're pretty much at $900-$1000. it's jsut that this stuff is out there sounds very good but tough to find.

So I suppose after thinking about the Krell is probably the easier way to go - it's available and the OP can still flip it for pretty much what he paid maybe more. And certainly there are fans who like it so on second consideration there's not much to lose - and I believe in building experience - so experiencing Krell is a worthy education regardless of the opinion you have on the sound.

[Mr Peabody]

I used to have a bad opinion of Rotel, I respected it as a good quality mid-fi line, I just didn't like it's sound. I found it too laid back and polite. Frenchmon brought over his Rotel preamp, I forgot the model, maybe 1098, any way after hooking it up to an Adcom 5500 and listening for a while it changed my opinion. Now I don't dismiss the entire line :)

I was under the impression the SP-9 was sort of a stand out preamp for ARC. Several people I know of have them and some in the business who could easily have a new one. I have yet to hear one personally. The current ARC gear don't do anything for me. They have an interesting sound, the term "mechanical" comes to mind.

I heard a new Arcam integrated and CDP today and granted they were entry for them,$799.00 and $899.00 respectively, but they left me wondering if Arcam isn't going toward a warmer sound than they previously had.

[RGA]

Actually I decided to look up the ARC SP-9 and back in 1987 it was reviewed by Stereophile - people always say Stereophile never gives out a bad review - I would consider this a negative review. http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/739/index.html

Frankly, I heard what he heard - I just thought that it might have needed new caps or something - perhaps it just sounds like that?

[dvjorge]

I have the same opinion about Rotel than Mr P. I owned the Nad C-370 integrated for a couple of years and one time wanted to experiment with it and got a Rotel 1070 to use the Nad as a preamp. The sound was more laid back than with the Nad alone. The music lost a lot of details and the "live" emotion. Since that, I haven't pay attention to any rotel piece. Mr. P. What do you think about those chinese tube brands which are selling on ebay??? There is a preamp catching my eyes..my final gol is to have a hybrid or tube preamp plus ss amp.

[RGA]

I agree with both of you on the older Rotel power amps - a little overly polite and laid back - a little boring and dull - but a safe sound - not bright. oddly though I found their preamps to be the opposite of the power amps to some degree being failry open if a little bright and not the greatest at depth or bass.

That has changed however, I think because of new designers. Enough that I bought one. It's still not going to set the world on fire - it has it's weaknesses but I needed the preamp to sound relatively neutral and it had features that would benefit me as a reviewer - on board MC and MM and plenty of inputs. It also helped that they were closing them out at a price that I could sell it for what I paid for it. http://www.avguide.com/review/rotel-rc-1082-stereo-preamplifier. It also helps that I am using Shengya monoblocks and that is the company that Vincent rebadges and is a similar monoblock mentioned in the review.

[dvjorge]

RGA,
What do you think about this preamp ??? Xiang Sheng 728 A... check it out in Ebay. It is cheap and tube. Nice looking too plus tone controls which I like.

[02audionoob]

Among current ARC gear, I got the feeling the VSi60 integrated was sort of smooth and cozy...but maybe it was the source or the speakers. The word "mechanical" certainly wouldn't have come to my mind on that one.

One time when I was speaker shopping (used), I took my Adcom GFA-545II over to the guy's house and he connected it between his Rotel preamp and his speakers that he was selling. He said he liked my amp better than his own.

[Mr Peabody]

I haven't personally used any of the Chinese tube gear but they are becoming wildly popular for the price to performance ratio and it's probably worth taking a chance. A guy I know bought an integrated tube amp from China for $150.00, it was 25x2 and only had one, maybe two inputs at best, he brought it over to hook up and let me hear it, I was prepared to dog him out but surprisingly the amp sounded way better than I thought it would. I mean it wasn't great but it was $150.00. He loved it. It had a classic stereotype tube sound a very bluming bottom end, sort of a forgiving sound, not a lot of resolution. A lot of people get these products then swap the Chinese tubes for good ones which improves the sound.

Unless you just wanted tubes there is usually an abundance of Adcom preamps on Audiogon for under $200.00.

RGA, as a side note CJ has improved a lot on the entry level preamps. Still musical but more detailed. Many of the higher end preamps are excellent. My CT6 is amazing, I marvel at the accuracy of the bass and how low it goes for a tube piece. The resolution is good and the highs extended.

[Mr Peabody]

The ARC dealer plays it through B&W, I never felt warm and cozy. Mechanical may not be the best word, the sound gives me a feel like steely and gray, it's hard to explain.

I had an excellent experience with some older ARC gear driving Martin Logan ReQuests. It gave such a presence to the vocalist it was scary. I get the impression ARC is not very consistent with their pieces.

[02audionoob]

The VSi60 surprised me a little in that I expected it to sound just like my CA50. This dealer has a tendency to play their ARC gear with ProAc mini monitors, which are very similar to my slim ProAc towers. My towers use the small drivers found in the monitors. Their Rega Saturn outclasses my modded Music Hall CD-25, so the comparison wasn't entirely fair, but at least I have the PS Audio DLIII to bring it a little closer. That said, I've never known whether it was the Saturn that made the difference, but I thought their setup sounded warmer than mine.

[Feanor]

I haven't heard either amps, so why am I talking? Just to say that between these two older amps, the Krell has much the higher reputation amount audiophiles -- this is the reason the price is higher: dah!! The Krell will be an easier resell if you don't like it.

As between current Krell and Bryston models, it's a lot closer between the two brands in terms of reputation.

[RGA]

RGA,
What do you think about this preamp ??? Xiang Sheng 728 A... check it out in Ebay. It is cheap and tube. Nice looking too plus tone controls which I like.

I have never heard it - I know some guys on head-fi seem to like amps from this brand. I believe they make some amps for Grant Fidelity as well - but not totally sure. Like anything - I would not be afraid to buy stuff in China - but be cautious - some of it it very good and some of it lives up to China made reputation. But that can be said for American made gear as well.

[RGA]

RGA, as a side note CJ has improved a lot on the entry level preamps. Still musical but more detailed. Many of the higher end preamps are excellent. My CT6 is amazing, I marvel at the accuracy of the bass and how low it goes for a tube piece. The resolution is good and the highs extended.
The thing with tube amps is there a huge difference between $500 and $5000 - far more of a difference than Solid State sound. There is even wild differences between competing tube amps at the same price - you won't mistake an Audio Note for a Cary - for that matter you won't mistake an OTO and a SORO which are about the same money from the same maker - the latter is a grand more.

That's why when I read that nonsense about putting a resister in the chain to make it sound like a tube was obviously written by people with an axe to grind against tubes. The Grant Fidelity Rita has all the things you will like about a 500watt Solid State amp but sounds better. At $4,200 new and weighing in at over 120lbs and looking great with truly outstanding build quality - people can drive their 82db Acoustats with ease (Mr. Acoustat on these forums does). It comes down largely to the tube output design - you can generally expect a certain kind of ballpark sound with KT 88's and SS guys may want to try this kind of amp first to ease themselves in - Bryston grip without the side effects and it's cheaper - Certainly if they are running harder to drive speakers simply buy a more robust tube amp - the Jinro I would love to try and tough to drive speakers - I could not believe the bass depth grip and volume capability of that amplfier.

I was very dissapointed that CJ was running a static display room because I was looking forward to hearing them :( I have heard them but it was something like 12 years ago - and on speakers that I didn't care for. I know some regard their top preamps to be some of the very best in the world.

[Mr Peabody]

Octave Audio has a 40 watt integrated that will sell for more than the Rita, it would be an interesting comparison. The Octave is rated at 40 watts but is said to be able to drive some amazing difficult loads.

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, ever review any Vincent Audio? If so, what did you think?