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blackraven
01-17-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a new sub. Its come down to 2 Velodyne subs-

The Velodyne Optimum 10" http://velodyne.com/products/specs/OptimumSpecs.html

or

The Velodyne Digital Drive DD 10- which has an adjustable high gain servo control

http://velodyne.com/products/specs/DigitalDrive.html

In doing some research on subs, I've found this site of reviews for FYI-

http://www.avrev.com/equipment-reviews/equipment+reviews/home+theater+loudspeakers/subwoofers/order/rdate/limit/25/start/0.html

Mr Peabody
01-17-2010, 09:38 PM
Have you considered SVS? The SVS blows my old Velodyne SPL 1200 away. In fact, if the 1200 is typical of Velodyne I wouldn't use them for music at all. It's remarkable how fast and accurate the U13 is. It also goes much deeper.

www.svsound.com

Mr Peabody
01-17-2010, 09:40 PM
SVS also offers what looks to be an awesome separate PEQ.

TheHills44060
01-17-2010, 10:13 PM
Optimum 10 all the way. You 'll see how the remote control is soooooo handy.

I've got the SPL-1500R and the Microvee...luv em both. I use them both in 2-channel systems.

audio amateur
01-18-2010, 03:28 AM
The fact is, Velodyne makes compact subwoofers, which is why they have to employ 1000+ watt amps to even hope to a achieve the same output/frequency response as bigger and sometimes much cheaper subs (SVS for example). Also, the sealed nature of their small cabinets doesn't help with efficiency. For the price of the DD-10, you can find subs that will be just as musical, and offer much lower distortion at higher outputs and reach a lot deeper. I simply couldn't bring myself to splash 2k+ , no matter how good it is for a 10" (servo or not). There are soo many options you can have in the US for the same price and even a lot less which will yield better results. If you're going to pay that kind of money for a sub, you want something that can easily reach 20Hz at decent levels without compression. Here is a post from AVS on the DD-10:
The DD-10 is a very small sub designed to have a flat, extended frequency response, but it does this at the expense of the ability to produce deeper bass at any significant volume. It cannot produce deep bass loud enough to do a good job with movie soundtracks that call for that. Things go real well up to about 90db or so and then severe compression begins to take place.

Here is a test result of a DD-10. Although this is with older SMS-1 software, it can give you a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0

Pay close attention to how limited the output capability is in the 20 to 30 hz range.

I know you'll be using it for music and not movies but it still applies. My first choice, without going DIY with a 1K$ budget would be the the 15" sealed sub from rythmik audio. It's servo too:ihih:

I'm sure the DD-10 is a good sub given its size. But when you factor in the price of the thing, it simply doesn't make sense to buy one.
Heck, if I had that money to spend on a sub I'd be buying two for music listening.

I do have a question. Are you looking at 10" subs because you think they will be 'faster' musically?

blackraven
01-18-2010, 03:58 AM
I'm leaning to the DD for a number of reasons. Price is about $1350. It will be used only for 2 ch music with my Magnepan 1.6's. Sealed subs tend to match better with Maggies. The DD has an adjustable High Gain servo Control unit to limit distortion. The DD 10 supposedly can go as low as 18Hz although I don't care if it goes lower than 25Hz. It also is a nice size, not to big. My room is only 17x17x9.5' I also need speaker level inputs as this is how I will be hooking up the sub. I talked to Velodyne and this is their preferred route for my application and system. REL also recommends this route.

It also comes with a nice onscreen equalizer and the biggie for me is the Remote Control as Shodulik pointed out. Also, all the reviews have been great, many comparing it to much more expensive subs. If I had the money I would buy a REL Britannia. This sub is a beast and puts out wonderful sounding deep bass with no audible distortion. My Magnepan dealer recommends them for Maggies over the other high end subs he sells.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b2.htm

I appreciate the feedback!

audio amateur
01-18-2010, 05:49 AM
That's a bargain then, given the retail price.
The big advantage of the DD-10 which I didn't mention earlier is the complete EQ it comes with.
If space is indeed a concern, and the price at 1.3K, I would say go for it.

02audionoob
01-18-2010, 07:41 AM
Can you explain why Velodyne and REL recommend using the speaker level input? Just curious.

Mr Peabody
01-18-2010, 07:56 AM
REL has what I considered a different approach to the sub hook up, there explanation is on their website, I wouldn't be able to explain it properly from memory. I do recall they strongly encourage and have designed the sub to connect to the amplifier's speaker terminal right along with the speaker cable. It's also one of the first subs I've seen to offer separate inputs for music and HT with independent volume control.

02audionoob
01-18-2010, 08:01 AM
When you say right along with the speaker cable, you mean parallel? I assumed we were talking about a pass-through.

Mr Peabody
01-18-2010, 09:46 AM
Yeah, parallel, here's a set up link in case you didn't find it. Also notice that REL says "corner placement is best because corner placement produces the MOST LINEAR BASS response". So does SVS. This is opposite to what about 90% of the members here tell posters. I personally trust REL & SVS, I think they should know.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/manuals/REL-SET-UP.doc

mountwoody
01-18-2010, 11:39 AM
I went with dual SVS PB12 NSDs. If you are not starving for space. These guys will give you more than enough deep accurate bass for both music and movies. I have had mine over two years now and will keep them for my lifetime.....if they last that long. The subs are the only part of my system that I will not consider a change. You'll end up with more power in reserve than you'll ever use. Unless you want to demonstrate an atomic explosion.

blackraven
01-19-2010, 06:12 PM
Any one have any experience with the Martin Logan Grotto i sub? I've found one for about $1K. There are only a few user reviews which have all been positive. I like the fact that it is also a servo controlled sub. Bare in mind that this will be for 2ch music only to pair with my MG 1.6's. It usually sells for about $1500. By the way, if any one is interested there is a Martin Logan 12" Abyss sub on sale at One Call for $599 which is about $400 off the normal price.

Mr Peabody
01-19-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm not sure if that model, or what model, I heard some of the ML subs in set ups. The bass was powerful and tight. When i was shopping for a sub I can't remember why ML was taken off the list, I think it was a simple matter of size. I didn't have much room for a sub. The REL i wanted was expensive and they like corners and speaker terminal hook up neither of which are possible in my room. Linn only uses BNC and hook up would be a pain. So fate took me to the SVS and after using it I thinnk things worked out for the best.

As a side note the ports can be plugged on the cylinder SVS subs. The result the sub plays further down but in turn can't go as high. The U13 sounds like no other sub I've heard. It's clean and accurate more like a speaker that just goes deep. No boom or rumble for loss of control.

blackraven
01-19-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm going to roll off the sub at around 45hz.

audio amateur
01-20-2010, 04:57 AM
Go for the DD, it has parametric EQ. Given the 1.6 as I've heard it go down to about 40Hz, you might want to have a lower than 45hz cutoff for the sub.

I believe I talked to a Velodyne rep here in England at an audio show and he recommended line level rather than speaker level. To be honest, I doubt there's any difference between the two. But if you use line level for the sub and are not using an int amp for your 2 main channels, you'll need either two pre amp outputs on your pre amp or a a couple y splitters to be able to connect the sub.

blackraven
01-21-2010, 12:35 AM
I talked to the main designer at the Velodyne corp a few weeks ago and asked him the best set up with my Magnepans for 2ch music and he said that for the best results that I should hook up the sub to my power amp into the speaker level inputs on the sub. He stated that he has Magnepans and thats the way he runs his. He also tried to steer me away from the DD and suggested I go with the Optimum sub. He felt it was just as fast and that there was no need to spend the extra cash for the DD. I was surprised at his answer and I had a lot of respect for his honesty.

kexodusc
01-21-2010, 05:20 AM
I'm curious what the rationale for using the sub's high-level inputs is? I've tried it on a variety of subs and sometimes the variable crossover works better, but otherwise I've heard no material difference. My old HSU Research sub recommended it at the time too...I found a lot more benefit using the steeper crossover in the receiver. If your processor has a crossover, it's usually 4th order these days, a lot of sub amps still have 2nd order crossovers. This makes it painfully difficult to properly integrate in a stereo without some additional work.

audio amateur
01-21-2010, 06:51 AM
Blackraven will be running his sub on his 2 channel system so no processors here if I'm correct..

kexodusc
01-21-2010, 07:18 AM
Blackraven will be running his sub on his 2 channel system so no processors here if I'm correct..
Yeah, but if you follow this thread, some companies that offer both connections are recommending one over the other..just curious as to why, and what factors in the sub's plate amp make the high-level perform better? Could be a simple tweak for a lot of people...

audio amateur
01-21-2010, 07:30 AM
Yeah, but if you follow this thread, some companies that offer both connections are recommending one over the other..just curious as to why, and what factors in the sub's plate amp make the high-level perform better? Could be a simple tweak for a lot of people...
At the same show I talked to the Velodyne rep, I also had the chance to enter the MJ Acoustics room which boasted their full line of subs. They use the same dual input on their subs and I talked to one of their guys who explained it to me, problem is it was never clear in my head... I believe it's for practicality reasons, when you're running both HT and stereo setups and you want your sub connected for both systems. You can independently tweak the sub for both indinvidual inputs, if that makes any sense.
Frankly i don't think one method of connection or the other makes a big difference. REL says it's preferable to use high level because the subs receives the 'exact same info' as the speaker does. Yeah, why not...

MJ had two of their flagship 18" sub running with an HT system using a Sim projector ona massive screen. It was pretty sweet to hear them on bass heavy passages from X men, War of the worlds and other films.

blackraven
01-21-2010, 11:53 AM
I tend to believe that it probably does not make a difference how you hook up the sub, but my 2ch Van Alstine preamp does not have bass management and I don't really want to limit the main speakers, so using the speaker level inputs for the sub works for me. I should be able to use it for HT use as well with the line level inputs connected to my Adcom AVR, but I still have a Velodyne CH-8 sub that I'm using for that that does a great job for HT.

blackraven
01-21-2010, 02:56 PM
I think I just may have found my sub
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1268934147&/REL-Brittania-B3

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b3.htm

I'm going to Audio Perfection in Minneapolis this weekend to give it a listen. I last heard the B2 2 years ago and it was awesome.

audio amateur
01-21-2010, 03:18 PM
It's going to be hard to have a smooth response without somekind of EQ. That's why my vote still goes to the DD10, but i understand your attraction for the Rel.

blackraven
01-21-2010, 03:23 PM
Yep, I agree with you AA. The eq with the DD's is very attractive and it still win me over. I'm going to listen to the REL's and the ML Grotto this weekend. I have to find a Velodyne DD here in the twin cities. My Magnepan dealer swears by the REL's. I also found a used REL Strata III for $900 which may be better than the B3 since its non ported.

the hand of boredom
01-25-2010, 06:17 AM
Blackraven, I'm sure you've narrowed your search to a couple options. Since people love choice I'll throw another sub into the mix for you.

Rythmik Audio http://www.rythmikaudio.com/products.html. Has servo, and everything about the sub is fully spec'd from the driver to the cabinet, test reports are published on the web site.

The one 'downer' is that they operate through mail-order only, but they do offer 30-day trial and will fully refund your purchase if the sub doesn't fit your bill.

I ordered an F12SE, with the PEQ amp; the thing is beautiful. I've had it now for almost a year. It was very easy to integrate with controls for xo, phase, slope, level, and the PEQ (1 selectable band, width, and cut). I have mine crossed in very low at about 39Hz, and it's not troubled at all.

To top it off, Brian Ding, the owner/engineer/designer, answered all my call and questions before and after purchase.

FFT.

THOB

audio amateur
01-25-2010, 07:05 AM
I've suggested Rythmik before and I'm glad someone else brought it up. The customer testimonials are quite convincing too.
ps: take the bracket off at the end of the link otherwise it won't work

audio amateur
01-25-2010, 07:07 AM
For 1 grand I wouldn't look further:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/D15SE.html

But you can also have a look at the smaller version

blackraven
01-25-2010, 11:18 PM
Looks like a very nice sub, I'll have to check it out. My problem is that I am unwilling to buy something without hearing it first. I might miss out on some good equipment but I really don't want the hassle of sending it back if I don't like it. Ive been there before and have gotten burned.

blackraven
02-05-2010, 08:23 PM
I lsitened to the Velodyne Digital Drive 12 sub today at a high end Home Theater Store. Its well built and has great sound but it was set up for HT use and they would not set it up in 2ch. so the cross over was set too high at 80hz. It was a little boomy because its positioning was poor (tucked away in a corner) and it was not EQ'd. The salesman admitted that it was not set up properly and that by next week they may have it set properly.

It clearly was not as musical as the REL subs that I listened too. Hopefully in 1 week I'll be able to listen to the Martin Logan Grotto i. I may eventually decide to save money and buy the ML Abyss which can be found on closeout for $500.

By the way. I got to listen to the Thiel 3.6's, 1.6's and their $2kpr bookshlelf's in a 2ch set up through an all Bryston set up. All 3 were awesome although I would not pay $2k for the bookshelfs. The 1.6's were awesome and sounded like a much bigger speaker. Very clean, clear sound with good sound stage, transparency and detail. Bass was crisp, tight and fairly deep. I would have no problem recommending them. They sounded better than most speakers in its price range.

TheThiel 3.6's were off the charts but I would not pay $14K for them. They were one of the best speakers I have ever heard, but the Salk Veracity HTR-3's starting at $8k and up were better sounding and are a better deal. Atomic Adam, if you read this you should take a look at the Thiel 1.6's over the Salk Song Towers.

audio amateur
02-06-2010, 06:09 AM
It looks like they are readily available for 600$. At that price you could get two and have full stereo separation as a 2+2 setup. But then you won't be saving much money...

blackraven
02-09-2010, 12:42 PM
What do you guys think about this Rythmik sub for musicality and speed. It's at a great price.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

audio amateur
02-10-2010, 06:43 AM
Go for it!:thumbsup: There's one thing I will warn you about, and that's the low sensitivity of the power-on feature. I own a sub amp from them and it has this problem, so you might find yourself having to turn it on/off everytime you use it. Unless you decide to leave it on all the time... Of course it may be different on that amp (which is servo unlike mine) or they may have fixed it since.

the hand of boredom
02-10-2010, 09:39 AM
I'm very happy with mine... finish is gorgeous, very well put together. Unlike AA, I don't have a problem with the auto on/off function. Had mine almost a year now and it's had not one blip.

Sound wise, no complaints from me. I'm registering 20hz at 100db (I'm in an apt, so it's only on for a few seconds that test tone; this is with the gain on the sub at half). I know this means nowt in a real application, but showing that there's enough oomph to go around.

For the price, it's really worth a shot, and I'm sure you'll have a smile on your face once setup correctly in your system.

FWIW, Brian has been great to deal with - he's answered every single question I've put to him (sometimes explained in technical lingo beyond my knowledge). He answered as many questions before the sale and after.

Feanor
02-10-2010, 10:10 AM
I'm very happy with mine... finish is gorgeous, very well put together. Unlike AA, I don't have a problem with the auto on/off function. Had mine almost a year now and it's had not one blip.

Sound wise, no complaints from me. I'm registering 20hz at 100db (I'm in an apt, so it's only on for a few seconds that test tone; this is with the gain on the sub at half). I know this means nowt in a real application, but showing that there's enough oomph to go around.

For the price, it's really worth a shot, and I'm sure you'll have a smile on your face once setup correctly in your system.

...
Hi, HOB, how goes, man? You in Winnipeg this days? How's the weather? :lol:

The Rythmiks has had a strong appeal for me since I first heard of them a couple of years ago. On the face of it, servo seems like a good idea for subs. Good to hear a positive report.

I'm glad to see they now sell complete speakers, no longer just the components. If my either PSB Subsonic 5 or 6 were to give it up, my top consideration would go to th Rythmik.

blackraven
02-10-2010, 10:36 AM
Thanks guys, I'm leaning to the Rythmik F12se but its a little large and I have to clear it with the wife otherwise it will be the Martin Logan Abyss or Grotto i. I like all three because of the Aluminum drives which tend to be faster and more musical. They should match better with the Maggies. The truth of the matter is that with my 2ch set up, the sub won't have to do too much except fill in the sound below 40hz.

the hand of boredom
02-10-2010, 07:39 PM
Blackraven, I'm in the same situation where the Auditors can play well into the upper 40s (granted, some of that pressure is probably from the small-room reinforcement). I have the F12SE crossed at about 39Hz and it provides just the right amount of bottom.

At the loudest levels I play at, I can definitely tell the sub is going (versus turning the sub off and listening at the same level) and the cone has minimal excursion.

THOB

the hand of boredom
02-10-2010, 07:49 PM
Hi, HOB, how goes, man? You in Winnipeg this days? How's the weather? :lol:

The Rythmiks has had a strong appeal for me since I first heard of them a couple of years ago. On the face of it, servo seems like a good idea for subs. Good to hear a positive report.

I'm glad to see they now sell complete speakers, no longer just the components. If my either PSB Subsonic 5 or 6 were to give it up, my top consideration would go to th Rythmik.

Feanor, good to hear from you!

Just got around to updating the profile, still in Toronto, start looking for a house soon (finally, A DEDICATED ROOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

The Rythmik is great, as will be many other subwoofers out there. Always liked the piano finish.

What about selling the PSB to generate some funds for the upgrade?

Feanor
02-11-2010, 06:24 AM
...
The Rythmik is great, as will be many other subwoofers out there. Always liked the piano finish.

What about selling the PSB to generate some funds for the upgrade?Tain't gowna happen soon. I'm retiring in a month and a half, meanwhile my daughter is still home and will be depandent for a few more months.

The sub isn't that important with the Maggies given the type of music I listen to. The Maggies are remarkably flat down almost to 40 Hz, so the sub only have to play deep pipe organ and the odd synthesizer note that occassionally turns up in avant garde classical.

the hand of boredom
02-11-2010, 04:51 PM
Freeeeeeeeedooooooooooooooooomm!

I can't wait to retire, too bad for me that's another 15 years.

JoeE SP9
02-11-2010, 05:48 PM
Tain't gowna happen soon. I'm retiring in a month and a half, meanwhile my daughter is still home and will be depandent for a few more months.

The sub isn't that important with the Maggies given the type of music I listen to. The Maggies are remarkably flat down almost to 40 Hz, so the sub only have to play deep pipe organ and the odd synthesizer note that occassionally turns up in avant garde classical.

Welcome to the "I'll get up when I want club". I joined last September.

Feanor
02-11-2010, 06:19 PM
Welcome to the "I'll get up when I want club". I joined last September.
Thank you, Joe. I hope you're enjoying your retirement as much as I intend to enjoy mine. :cornut:

Feanor
02-11-2010, 06:20 PM
Freeeeeeeeedooooooooooooooooomm!

I can't wait to retire, too bad for me that's another 15 years.
Longer than that surely, HOB!?!

the hand of boredom
02-12-2010, 05:44 AM
Nah, Bill, I've got the plan and I'll do what it takes to have the plan manifest itself.

2025 I will not have to wake up in the morning and not have to go to work.

paulspencer
02-20-2010, 05:42 PM
Yeah, parallel, here's a set up link in case you didn't find it. Also notice that REL says "corner placement is best because corner placement produces the MOST LINEAR BASS response". So does SVS. This is opposite to what about 90% of the members here tell posters. I personally trust REL & SVS, I think they should know.

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/manuals/REL-SET-UP.doc

That's a generic suggestion that will work in some situations but not in others. Subwoofer placement and integration is a lot more complicated than most are willing to entertain, so they have to give a "one size fits all" answer. It's not that hard to measure and find out for yourself in your room, and it's not even expensive. Otherwise it's like playing pin the tail on the donkey blindfolded.

Here's my suggestion for getting the best result for the least expense. Start with a Rythmik sub - they are killer value, you can spend a LOT more while matching the SQ at best, and often be a step behind. With the money you save, buy a few things that will allow you to get the most of them. A measurement mic and mic pre are very cheap. Now measure them with REW which is a free download tool for measuring their in-room response. Then find out for yourself if corner placement is best in your room. You will see charts that look nothing like the nice neat anechoic plots you are used to. The bass won't be +/- 3db .... perhaps more like 30! I'm not kidding. You can buy a velodyne EQ unit, but you can actually get a pro unit for half the cost and it's more powerful. I use Behringer Ultracurve.

The result? The subs do their job and get out of the way. I cross at 80 Hz which is something many subs can't do without adding their own sound to the bass. You can't tell the subs are on unless you are within 1ft from the cone. You can stand right in front of it and not localise any sounds relative to the subs.

In terms of high level and low level inputs, I'd say it's generally preferable to use low level. Sometimes the gain isn't right. I hosted an audio event and we had a demo of a sub where there wasnt' enough preamp gain to drive it. We used high level inputs to get around the problem. Using the high level outputs to the main speakers gives them a passive high pass which isn't ideal. I think REL is trying to find a simple soluation to suit many different systems, but it's certainly not ideal. It amounts to a passive biamping setup, vs active biamping. Done right, a low level input is a better choice. Perhaps REL consider that using low level inputs, there are more chances to stuff it up. Done their way, the plate amp has more control over the crossover point. If you know what you are doing, and use measurements then you will get the same result at least, if not a little better.

If you get the bass right, and your equipment allows it, I see no reason to use a different sub integration for music and home theatre. But this does take a bit more effort and know how than most would prefer. Have a look at some discussions on REW at the home theatre shack.