This is really bad.......Did I break the Speakers??? What is going on?? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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manlystanley
01-14-2010, 05:27 PM
I got home from my trip, and I found that the XLO Reference Recordings Test & Burn-in CD had come. I was going through the first 7 tests and everything seemed fine. What I found out:

-- The speakers are hooked up correctly in-phase (using the first two in-phase and out of phase tests):
-- Tried just the bass on both speakers (they are correct).
-- Tried just the tweeter on both speakers (they are correct).

-- But Test #8 (e.g. Low Frequency Demagnetizing Fade) shows something is very/very wrong:

-- On my upstairs system: (which consists of a low end Denon AVR and DVD player and Klipsh RB-5 II), I heard a low frequency hum that went from loud to soft to not being able to be heard after 25 seconds or so. This is what I expected to hear.




***** Now the problem *************


-- On my system with the Magnepan 1.6's test #8 starts out with a normal low 'rumble'. Then a second sound that sounds like a loud RATTLE starts up. It sounds just like a ribbon is loose. It occurs on both of the speakers. Each time I play this track #8, the RATTLE sounds different--so it's not in the recording. Further, the louder I play this track the more RATTLE I hear.

-- As track #8 gets softer, the rattle gets less, until eventually just the correct low rubble is heard.

--After running this "test #8" multiple times, the rattle even occurs on the right speaker in normal music. I never heard this before. Did I break something? Something strange going on?? Please help......

-- When I unhook the tweeter, this RATTLE sound is just as described above (e.g. it's just in the bass and not the tweeter).


Thanks,
Stan

blackraven
01-14-2010, 05:31 PM
Stan, call magnepan tomorrow. Sounds like something is definitely wrong.

blackraven
01-14-2010, 05:37 PM
Stan, take a flashlight and look at the mylar and the wires to see if they are coming loose. It sounds like that may be the problem. it makes me wonder if thats why the guy you bought them from was selling them.

manlystanley
01-14-2010, 06:04 PM
On the right one, (it's hard to tell) but it looks like a Mylar strip is broken?? The guy I bought them from said he had them for about a year. Got them it Pittsburgh. His audiogon feedback showed lots and lots of all very positive buys and sells. That's why I went with him.

So, I'll call up Magnepan tomorrow, but I've got some real problems here........

Best Regards,
Stan

blackraven
01-14-2010, 06:07 PM
Are they still under warranty?

blackraven
01-14-2010, 06:17 PM
Stan, it looks like they have a 3yr warranty to the original owner. If they are broke and less than 3 yrs old you might have to work something out with the seller using his name. Hopefully he registered them or at least has the original receipt or maybe he can get one from the store of origin.

By the way, I live 20 minutes from the Magnepan factory, let me know if there is something I can do to help.

Best of luck,

Larry

Dawnrazor
01-19-2010, 01:23 PM
Hey Stan,

That sounds like the magnepan banana peel. Every mag owner runs into that at one point.

The wires are held on by adhesive to the mylar. Over time this comes undone and the wires peel off the mylar...you hear this a rattle or a buzz.

That is the main problem with buying mags used. The seller might not know of the problem if there is music that lacks bass being played, or it could be the reason for selling them. THere is really no way to know without either taking the socks off, or playing some bass through them, and even then it might not show up.

From the sounds of it, you have a couple of options. 1. Send them to magnepan...they will fix them and if the speakers are out of warranty, it is not a huge charge IIRC. And I remember them having a kit they could send for DIYers though they maynot send the water based adhesive out until it stops freezing in MN.. Or you can fix them yourself as detailed in the link:

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/peter_gunn/repair.html

That disk just helped you to find the problem earlier than you might have, but the problem is common as maggie ages. Sorry I was the one who suggested that disk but it wouldn't have caused the problem just allowed you to notice it.

FWIW mine are like that though just the tips are off a bit. Occasionally I will hear a rattle, and about a week ago I ordered the stuff to fix that. You can kind of see it in the pict how the tips are not quite adhered. ALso, it may not be in the photo, but peeling can occur in the middle too.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=mug&n=145842&highlight=tweak+dawnrazor&r=

audio amateur
01-19-2010, 01:43 PM
Sorry to hear that, hope it works out. Let us know

manlystanley
01-20-2010, 10:15 AM
Hey Stan,

That sounds like the magnepan banana peel. Every mag owner runs into that at one point.


[Snip]

Sorry I was the one who suggested that disk but it wouldn't have caused the problem just allowed you to notice it.


Hello DR,
You had the best intentions. So, thanks for your help.

Best Regards,
Stan

manlystanley
01-20-2010, 10:18 AM
Sorry to hear that, hope it works out. Let us know


I'm thinking that I'll just sell them on Ebay with disclosing the banana peel problem. I'll loose money, but fortunately I got them for only $900 and they came with stands as well.. I'm finding out that moving form mid-fi to hi-fi is much more challenging then I thought.


Best Regards,
Stan

Dawnrazor
01-20-2010, 03:48 PM
Thanks Stan,

Here is another option though expensive might actually be a great way to go and solve some other issues.

Get them magnestanded.

As part of that mod he will probably fix them for an additional price. And having heard the mod, I can say that it works wonders on an already great speaker.

http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag6.html

atomicAdam
01-20-2010, 07:53 PM
I'm finding out that moving form mid-fi to hi-fi is much more challenging then I thought.


Best Regards,
Stan

That is too bad about the speaker Stan but I'm gonna have to say, moving from mid-fi to hi-fi isn't really hard, you just got a bum deal with these. Moving to hi-fi is easy. Doing it on the cheap, is probably hard.

Good luck though, I wish you all the best in getting them repaired and working.

poppachubby
01-20-2010, 08:50 PM
Don't sell them Stan! Hang in man, it will be worth it. You know what they're capable of. You have really smart people from the Asylum chiming in to help as well. I hope you keep them...

manlystanley
01-21-2010, 05:01 AM
Thanks Stan,

Here is another option though expensive might actually be a great way to go and solve some other issues.

Get them magnestanded.

As part of that mod he will probably fix them for an additional price. And having heard the mod, I can say that it works wonders on an already great speaker.

http://www.indiespinzone.com/mag/mag6.html


Hello DR,
I think that if I had tired them out in my listening room and lived them, I'd go and do this. It sounds like a really good option. But, plugging in $2,000 to do this great mod (and fix the wires) is really scary. What if I don't like them in the room downstairs?? Also, I'm not someone who takes one listen and then gives a: yea of nea. Instead, it takes me a while to formulate my opinion. So, If I did this and then 'my opinion changed' I'd be in big trouble.

My upgrade style is to:
-- Buy used stuff at a really good price.
-- Only buy items that have a big name draw.
-- Then if I don't like it, I can easily sell it without a huge price drop.

For instance:

-- All the speakers I've bought and sold, the only ones I lost money on was my B&W 684's. I list about $80 on them. But, used them for a year and half.

-- My H/K amp: bought it for $35 and sold it for $50 (with it not working).

Also, this guy says that he is booked until *AT LEAST* the fall of 2010 . That's a long time to wait.

Anyways, you always have great suggestions. Thanks for your help.

Best Regards,
Stan

manlystanley
01-21-2010, 05:13 AM
That is too bad about the speaker Stan but I'm gonna have to say, moving from mid-fi to hi-fi isn't really hard, you just got a bum deal with these. Moving to hi-fi is easy. Doing it on the cheap, is probably hard.

Good luck though, I wish you all the best in getting them repaired and working.

I remember when I started in mid-fi, I read about terms like: cohesion , warmth, bright, dark, earthy, airy. Then I read how different amps sound better with different speakers, and some equipment don't work in certain rooms, etc, etc.

I thought all these people were nuts. Why be so picky. i mean, boom-boxs worked for me for a long time. But, now that I've enjoyed mid-fi so much, I just want to move to hif-fi, and I do want to do it cheaply. So, that is my problem. But, I'm concerned that I might end up spending more money doing it on the cheap and getting a lower quality system.

So, I'm in a re-evaluation mode.

Best Regards,
Stan

manlystanley
01-21-2010, 05:14 AM
Don't sell them Stan! Hang in man, it will be worth it. You know what they're capable of. You have really smart people from the Asylum chiming in to help as well. I hope you keep them...

Hey Chubbs,
Great advice. I'll think about it. Thanks so much for your help.


Best Regards,
Stan

poppachubby
01-21-2010, 05:21 AM
. But, I'm concerned that I might end up spending more money doing it on the cheap and getting a lower quality system.



Best Regards,
Stan

So true. I'm alot like you Stan, more in the sense that if I can build or DIY, I like to. You hit it right on the head though, you can get nickel and dimed to death.

It's like the guy who keeps making lateral "upgrades" when what he should do is just save his money for a length of time, and buy that really significant piece.

I guess if these speakers are gonna bleed your wallet dry, you'll have to move on. I wasn't trying to say you should spend heaps of cash to keep them. But if there's a way you can do it, without going broke, you should.

Chubbs

manlystanley
01-21-2010, 05:34 AM
I guess if these speakers are gonna bleed your wallet dry, you'll have to move on. I wasn't trying to say you should spend heaps of cash to keep them. But if there's a way you can do it, without going broke, you should.

Chubbs

Hey Chubbs,
Your the man. You always, have the best advice. I've got to think this through and get something that I like. One thing that I *LOVE* about the 803N's, is there looks. Oh man, I've never seen such beautiful speakers. Sleek, shapely, bold yet refined. I'm sure that B&W had some seriously high paid consultants help them with the visual aesthetics.

But, what good is looks if you don't love the sound?

Best Regards,
Stan

JoeE SP9
01-22-2010, 06:10 PM
Forgive me if I've missed something, manley. Have you removed the socks and looked at the diaphragms? If the only problem is some "banana" peel call Magnepan immediately and order the repair kit. It's a very easy fix.

I have been imformed by several Maggy owners that all you need is acetone and DAP contact cement. The acetone is to clean of the old adhesive. DAP contact cement is better than what Magnepan uses. So I've been told.

Look in on www.audiokarma.org (http://www.audiokarma.org) there are many Maggy owners there. A sizeable percentage of them have done the same repair job. Most of those guys are very frugal. "Vintage" Maggy's are very popular with them.

I had the problem many years ago on a pair of MG-2's. The hardest part is removing the socks! There's a bazillion staples holding them on. Give it a shot. If you decide not to DIY you can still sell them.

manlystanley
01-24-2010, 11:39 AM
Forgive me if I've missed something, manley. Have you removed the socks and looked at the diaphragms? If the only problem is some "banana" peel call Magnepan immediately and order the repair kit. It's a very easy fix.

I have been imformed by several Maggy owners that all you need is acetone and DAP contact cement. The acetone is to clean of the old adhesive. DAP contact cement is better than what Magnepan uses. So I've been told.

Look in on www.audiokarma.org (http://www.audiokarma.org) there are many Maggy owners there. A sizeable percentage of them have done the same repair job. Most of those guys are very frugal. "Vintage" Maggy's are very popular with them.

I had the problem many years ago on a pair of MG-2's. The hardest part is removing the socks! There's a bazillion staples holding them on. Give it a shot. If you decide not to DIY you can still sell them.

Good point Joe. Is there a site that shows someone doing this? Maybe I'm just getting lazy. I fix my own cars, finished my basement, so I know I can do it.

Thanks,
Stan

JoeE SP9
01-24-2010, 11:48 AM
manley, direct your browser to www.audiokarma.org (http://www.audiokarma.org) and ask.

manlystanley
01-24-2010, 07:11 PM
Hello Joe,
Strangest thing, I was thinking that I'll follow your advice and fix the wires so that I can get a higher price for them. But, in the mean time I hooked back up the maggies. We'll, they sound increadably good--and great bass (except for the noise with the loose wires.)

I've changed multiple things with since I put in the 803's, so I guess that's really improved things? It's late and I'm going to bed. But, the maggies sound better then the 803's sounded...... Very clean, life like, great bass (except the loose wires). And they even sound warm to my taste. Very strange.

Best Regards,
Stan

manlystanley
01-29-2010, 10:30 AM
Today is my day off. I went out got all the supplies, took off the first cover and am starting to re-glue the wires back on. So far, seems pretty straight forward. We'll see........

blackraven
01-29-2010, 04:14 PM
Good luck Stan. Keep us posted on how it works.

manlystanley
01-30-2010, 04:44 AM
Good luck Stan. Keep us posted on how it works.

Thanks. What I found on the first one, is that about foot long section of wire had come loose in the middle. This on the only wire run where there it two wires bunched together. I don't think I'll follow Peter Gunns procedure of stripping the glue from this point all the way to the top. It just makes too much risk of not aligning the wires between the magnet strips. So, I'l just fix the one foot section.

It's amazing that such a little section of loose wire could cause so much noise. Also, I would be done by now, but my 8 year old daughters fish died. Adopted children have special needs and she was really broken up about it. So, she needed lots of my time and love last night.

Best Regards,
Stan

audio amateur
01-30-2010, 06:09 AM
Also, I would be done by now, but my 8 year old daughters fish died. Adopted children have special needs and she was really broken up about it.
Better not get her a dog in that case!

So, she needed lots of my time and love last night.
I admire you for bringing up an adopted child, you're the man Stan!

JoeE SP9
01-30-2010, 01:51 PM
There are more important things than fixing a rattling speaker. It's good to know you have your priorities straight. So, how's the re-glueing coming along?

audio amateur
01-30-2010, 01:56 PM
There are more important things than fixing a rattling speaker.
Watch what you say, mister!! :smilewinkgrin:

manlystanley
01-30-2010, 02:25 PM
There are more important things than fixing a rattling speaker. It's good to know you have your priorities straight. So, how's the re-glueing coming along?


Hello Joe,
What I found was:

-- On both speakers, the same run was loose. This was the only run on the 1.6 that had two wires instead of just one.

-- One speaker was relatively simple as the loose run was only about a foot long. That run is fixed and drying now.

-- The second speaker is much worse. It had the same wire ((fourth group from the left) loose for over four feet. So, I've needed to re-glue that in four installments (one foot at a time). I've gotten two feet done so far. I plan to get through tonight, let it dry and then give it smoke test tomorrow. I'll tell you what happens.

Best Regards,
Stan

Dawnrazor
02-01-2010, 02:20 PM
Hey Stan,

Glad to see you making progress. Definitely worth fixing, and probably why they were sold in the first place.

ONce you get it fixed on both, you can use the Touchntone and that should prevent this from happening again, or so they say!

Then look at fixing the "component stack"...

JoeE SP9
02-01-2010, 02:25 PM
Glad to hear it's going good. I'm looking forward to your impressions once you can give a listen. Dawnrazor has a point. Maggy's make you look at your gear with a very critical eye. Yes, the 1.6's really are that good.

blackraven
02-01-2010, 06:09 PM
Stan, how did the fix go? Have you been able to listen to them?

manlystanley
02-27-2010, 02:37 AM
Stan, how did the fix go? Have you been able to listen to them?

The great re-gluing event is now over. The Maggies are now up-right and pumping out beautiful detailed music to my listening room. (Although very quite as my family is asleep)... But, I woke up at 2:00 and made a fatal mistake of letting my drift to speakers and could not get back to sleep. Am I compulsive or what??

Last night I cranked them up load. Ah..... Very nice......Teh two ohm tweeter resiter really 'warms' these babies up.

So, here is the blow by blow account:

-- Taking off the billion staples is indeed the hardest part. Also, when prying off the wood-trim be careful the not split the wood. Mine came off very well, but was I was very careful.

-- The metal plate that contains the fuse and speaker plugs should now be unscrewed and pushing through the sock openings.

-- Take off the sock and now view the unveiled beauty of the: Mylar, magnets, and copper wires.

-- Now, read, re-read, and triple re-read: http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/peter_gunn/repair.html

-- I strongly suggest that you get the CD: "XLO Reference Recordings Test & Burn-in CD.". I used mainly track #7: "Demagnetizing Sweep". It starts out on a single low frequency and then gradually goes up. What I found:

++ Middle wires that are loose make the most racket. But, they tend to only make that racket at specific frequencies. So, during the sweep, you will hear a 'buzz' fad in and then fad out as you go past that specific frequency. I found myself using the play forward/reverse remote control button as I tried to narrow down the offending wire.

++ I found that there was buzzing wires at low and high frequencies. But the high frequency buzzing was more difficult to locate the offending wires. Further, when found, just slightly pushing the wire back into the sticky mylar fixed the problem. So one one hand you need to use your fingers to locate the buzz, but on the other hand, don't apply much pressure, as you will temporarily stop that buzz.

++ Higher frequency buzzing is much less noticeable with music, further it tends to be shorter sections of wire. So, I'm theorizing the life of a buzzing wire is: 1.) Starts to buzz on very high frequencies, 2.) then lower, and lower, etc, etc.


-- Follow the above directs in attached link for the gluing. I used: cotton swabs and the glue remover and glue that he recommended. Except for the cotton swaps I bought everything at home depot. Also, using a close-pin worked well to push down the wire. Be careful with the mylar. It looks strong but I've read it's very fragile.

-- One wire fell out when I took the sock off. It must have been loose for at least a four feet run. I needed to glue that in different installments.

-- The goal is to glue the wire exactly between the magnet rows. I tired my best, but it certainly drifted off at times. However, I can hear no sound problems.

-- After finishing all the gluing, play and replay the XLO CD. I found multiple other wires that were starting to loosen themselves.

-- I just have the socks on, with no side panels and no wood trim, this is because:

++ It looks fine like this.

++ I'm concerned about trying to put back in the trim and 2 inch nails. Doing this to many times will split the wood. Also, I don't know if I'll hear another buzz, so I'm doing an extended test run (until I sell the speakers).

-- I'm open to any all questions. Fixing the buzz is not hard, it's just a time consuming process and not very difficult.

Best Regards,
Stan

Dawnrazor
03-15-2010, 12:30 PM
Manly,

THat is great news.

I am happy you were able to fix a great speaker...and that that disk helped!

Now you should treat the speaker with Touch n' Tone. That should stop any more issues.

Look in the Audio Asylum Planar asylum for Touch N' Tone.

I plan to do my rewire this week, but I think I have just the tiniest bit of delam.

manlystanley
03-27-2010, 07:51 PM
Hello DR,
All around, you have been a great help. Just hanging around you guys I lean so much. I've used that disk is so many different ways. Thanks for helping me out.

Best Regards,
Stan

JoeE SP9
03-28-2010, 12:17 PM
I was wondering if running a low level pink or white noise signal through the panels might help with positioning the wires properly. The wires should try to align themselves properly between the magnets when there is a signal present.

JoeE SP9
03-29-2010, 12:54 PM
Sorry guy's. That should be a 12v DC signal on the wires. It will hold them centered between the magnets. It makes it much easier to glue them in the proper place.