Side-grading from B&W N805, need advice! [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : Side-grading from B&W N805, need advice!



koven
01-14-2010, 05:15 PM
Long story short, I've tried both tubes and SS on the Nautilus 805's but the metal tweeter always gets to me after long periods of listening. They do great on vocals/jazz but for faster/bass heavier music, they really leave something to be desired.

I'm looking for something with smoother highs, something that doesn't use a metal tweeter. Fuller bass would be nice too, I found the bass a bit lacking on the 805's, although it wasn't too bad in my 11x15 room.

Whether it's a tower or monitor makes no difference to me, but I do NOT want to add a subwoofer. My budget is about <$2000 on the used market (Audiogon) and my amp is a McIntosh 7100 (100wpc SS).

Here is some good used speakers that I see so far:

Totem Forests - $1800
ProAc Response 1.5 - $1100
Usher X-719 - $750
Harbeth Hlp3-Es2 - $1300

Like I mentioned, I'm looking for something that is non-fatiguing/smooth while retaining the openness/airy sound of the 805's. I've demo'ed a few speakers so far from B&M shops and while most sound smoother, many have a boxy/recessed sound.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks!

poppachubby
01-14-2010, 06:03 PM
Those Totem's would probably solve your problems. Highly regarded. Have you given any thought to an alternative to a box? Electro-stat or open-baffle?


I've demo'ed a few speakers so far from B&M shops and while most sound smoother, many have a boxy/recessed sound.

Maybe it's time to do some research and look for a more truthful speaker...might be just what you need.

Tekton makes a well regarded O.B. that won't blow the bank...
http://www.tektondesign.com/ob45.htm

http://www.tektondesign.com/images/obmid2.jpg

Magnepans MMG is well regarded and hard to beat at it's price point...they offer a 60-day return window!!!
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

http://www.magnepan.com/content/binary/speakers/MMG_01.jpg

harley .guy07
01-14-2010, 06:10 PM
The usher speakers I have listened to and they are very smooth and not fatiguing at all. And am almost positive that the woofer in the x-719 would out do your B&W's in the bass department as well. I am not sure about your other choices but I have heard of them and they might be promising. I have Paradigm monitor 7's and have changed the tweeter the stock tweeter to a good 1 1/8 inch soft dome tweeter and the difference is substantial. And the monitor 7's had metal tweeters too and I have learned that for me in most cases metal dome tweeters are just way too bright for me to listen to for long periods of time. Since changing tweeters I have been listening way more and listening to music and CD's that I did not like before but it was because my speakers were way too bright.

blackraven
01-14-2010, 09:13 PM
I would see if you could find a used pair of PSB Synchrony's. Stereophile Class A rating. Nice warm but balanced sound, excellent bass.

Mr Peabody
01-14-2010, 09:13 PM
I'd suggest something in Dynaudio's Focus series or Contour. I've had my Contours on a full Krell system, used Arcam and now CJ, also Linn, and I've never been fatigued or disappointed, great speakers if I say so myself. :) You won't be disappointed in the bottom end either. If you want to go further in mellow give Thiel a listen, they have a sweet sound but I didn't find them terribly bass strong, not lacking, just not strong.

blackraven
01-14-2010, 09:20 PM
There are a few older thiel 3.6's for sale on audiogon in your price range.

Hyfi
01-15-2010, 05:02 AM
I'd suggest something in Dynaudio's Focus series or Contour. I've had my Contours on a full Krell system, used Arcam and now CJ, also Linn, and I've never been fatigued or disappointed, great speakers if I say so myself. :) You won't be disappointed in the bottom end either. If you want to go further in mellow give Thiel a listen, they have a sweet sound but I didn't find them terribly bass strong, not lacking, just not strong.

I have to ride on this one too. The silk tweeters in my Audience 82s and 42s is non fatiguing over long listening periods.

TheHills44060
01-15-2010, 06:03 AM
Maybe some Sonus Faber Concerto's or Vienna Acoustics Haydn's?

harley .guy07
01-15-2010, 06:43 AM
I like the Dynaudio idea very well. I have always liked their stuff and even their budget lines are top notch. B&W speakers have always been bright to me in the upper midrange and treble. I used to sell B&W back in the 90's and while I liked some of the things they did and the detail they presented was addicting at first they never were a speaker I could put real time into listening to for long periods of time due to their brightness. Especially with hard rock or music that has a lot of percussive attack in the cymbals and High hats. We sold Paradigm, and Mirage speakers too and most times people would choose either one of those brands over the B&W's due mostly to listening fatigue over extended listening periods. So I do understand what you are saying about the high end of their speakers all to well. Any of the speakers that the repliers are referring you to will be less fatiguing its just up to you which ones that you will like enough in invest your money in. Take your time and good luck.

Feanor
01-15-2010, 08:12 AM
Long story short, I've tried both tubes and SS on the Nautilus 805's but the metal tweeter always gets to me after long periods of listening. They do great on vocals/jazz but for faster/bass heavier music, they really leave something to be desired.

I'm looking for something with smoother highs, something that doesn't use a metal tweeter. Fuller bass would be nice too, I found the bass a bit lacking on the 805's, although it wasn't too bad in my 11x15 room.

Whether it's a tower or monitor makes no difference to me, but I do NOT want to add a subwoofer. My budget is about <$2000 on the used market (Audiogon) and my amp is a McIntosh 7100 (100wpc SS).
...

Like I mentioned, I'm looking for something that is non-fatiguing/smooth while retaining the openness/airy sound of the 805's. I've demo'ed a few speakers so far from B&M shops and while most sound smoother, many have a boxy/recessed sound.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks!
The choice if you have the room and listen to mainly accoustic music, (or at least not the "pounding" variety), is the Magneplanar MG 1.6 or possibly the new MG 1.7.

These planars will give you the "non-fatiguing/smooth while retaining the openness/airy sound of the 805's" without the "boxy/recessed" sound.

RGA
01-15-2010, 10:09 AM
Before you start aimlessly and possibly endlessly throwing money around I think you need to get out and listen and perhaps do a complete system re-think and factor in the room size and music you listen to (and think you might one day listen to) and volume level you wish to listen at and the money you're prepared to spend.

Tube vs SS is too simplistic. It depends on the maker and just because it's a big famous name does not mean the results are going to sound good. McIntosh and B&W are big famous audiophile approved names and it has not gotten you there. And they were probably class A or B rated components in Stereophile - which didn't get you there. Such lists are idiotic in my opinion for a number of reason - but those are off topic.

Ajani
01-15-2010, 10:49 AM
I'd suggest something in Dynaudio's Focus series or Contour. I've had my Contours on a full Krell system, used Arcam and now CJ, also Linn, and I've never been fatigued or disappointed, great speakers if I say so myself. :) You won't be disappointed in the bottom end either. If you want to go further in mellow give Thiel a listen, they have a sweet sound but I didn't find them terribly bass strong, not lacking, just not strong.

I'd also suggest auditioning some Dynaudio Focus Speakers.... I honestly can't imagine you finding them to be bright... they have quite a different sound from the 805s....

I also agree with RGA's advice to audition rather than just purchase.... You may solve your problem with brightness by switching speakers, but that may just lead to a whole different set of problems....

koven
01-15-2010, 11:01 AM
thanks for the responses

1st, i couldn't pass up on the proac response 1.5's.... i ended up paying $1000 shipped for them, there's no proac dealer near my area and i'm quite curious about their sound after reading so much about it

2nd, i might even pick up the usher x719s for $750 just for comparisons sake... what do you guys think? waste of time/money or worth the comparison?

3rd, i'm going to go demo dynaudio/magnepans this weekend

harley .guy07
01-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Just don't get yourself in such a hurry that you end up with a room full of speakers and out of all of them 1 pair you really want to keep. I do believe that the Ushers are very good and you could get your money back out of them if you liked the proac better. But I would also hate for you to go ahead and order those speakers and then go this weekend and demo the Dyn's or Magi's and fall in love with one of them. The two speakers that would most likely work the best for me would be between the Dynaudio and the ushers because they are not bright. And are very good with all types of music and have less of a dynamic limitation of the magnepans which I am not downing since they are great for what they can do I just do not like speakers that big to have the bass limitations and dynamic limitations that they seem to have. Plus my listening room would be a tight fit with a pair of Magnepans and I don't think i would have room to let them do what they do best. that would be the main factor to look at if I was you when it comes to the magnepans. If your room is big enough and you have enough open area in that room for you to move them around and get them away from the back and side walls like I have heard they do need to get the best out of them. Dynaudio,Paradigm,usher and others are a little more open to placement and also are not as big and room imposing as the magnepans. But you might find that the magnepans give you exactly what you need and are willing to live with them being bigger and the placement demands. Any of the brands we have talked about are going to be vastly different form the B&W's from which you are used to. B&W's to me are great out of the gate but they get real fatiguing after around 30 minutes or so.

koven
01-15-2010, 02:48 PM
hi harley, i really appreciate your input. i completely agree with you regarding the b&w's and being fatiguing. especially what you said about the hard rock/fast music.. the b&w's do not do well with that kind of music at all.

as for a room full of speakers.. i dont really mind, that's kind of my plan actually. i figure with the used prices i'm paying, i wont' be losing much when i put them back on the market.

another side note, fritz @ fritz speakers is coming to my house with his flagship Carbon 7's ( www.fritzspeakers.com) they use scan-speak drivers and ive heard many good things about them

i'm also working on loaning a demo pair of totem forests from my local dealer

so by next weekend, i should have the following in my room, ready to compare:

proac response 1.5
totem forest
fritz carbon 7
usher x719 (still undecided, have until this weekend to buy b4 he sells to someone else)

and whatever dynaudio/magnepan will let me take home

harley .guy07
01-15-2010, 06:09 PM
I have heard great things about the Scan Speak drivers and they are into SOFT dome tweeters because they are good. I don't know which model of Scan Speak he used but if they are the Revelator series or better they probably will be awesome. I have heard he is good at building speakers but you will be the decision of that. I am not against DIY or knowing a person who is an acomplished speaker builder to show you what you might be missing in your system. That might be pretty cool.

Mr Peabody
01-15-2010, 06:23 PM
RGA, just a pat on the back for using great restraint not giving the SET/high efficient speaker speech. :)

Koven, do keep us posted on your impressions of each brand, I'm sure we'd all be interested.

audio amateur
01-16-2010, 06:11 AM
another side note, fritz @ fritz speakers is coming to my house with his flagship Carbon 7's ( www.fritzspeakers.com) they use scan-speak drivers and ive heard many good things about them


Yes, let us know about the Frtiz too, look interesting.

02audionoob
01-16-2010, 09:13 AM
1st, i couldn't pass up on the proac response 1.5's.... i ended up paying $1000 shipped for them, there's no proac dealer near my area and i'm quite curious about their sound after reading so much about it


Have you ever auditioned one of these larger ProAc speakers? I'm a big fan of their smaller speakers, but the larger ones sound boxy to me.

Ajani
01-16-2010, 10:18 AM
hi harley, i really appreciate your input. i completely agree with you regarding the b&w's and being fatiguing. especially what you said about the hard rock/fast music.. the b&w's do not do well with that kind of music at all.

as for a room full of speakers.. i dont really mind, that's kind of my plan actually. i figure with the used prices i'm paying, i wont' be losing much when i put them back on the market.

another side note, fritz @ fritz speakers is coming to my house with his flagship Carbon 7's ( www.fritzspeakers.com) they use scan-speak drivers and ive heard many good things about them

i'm also working on loaning a demo pair of totem forests from my local dealer

so by next weekend, i should have the following in my room, ready to compare:

proac response 1.5
totem forest
fritz carbon 7
usher x719 (still undecided, have until this weekend to buy b4 he sells to someone else)

and whatever dynaudio/magnepan will let me take home

Frankly, I'm jealous...

I wish I had all those speakers in my house to compare :(

ENJOY!!!! And don't forget to let us know your thoughts and what you eventually select....

RGA
01-16-2010, 12:10 PM
For what it's worth I felt the Usher room was one of the better rooms (maybe top 15) at the CES show - of course they were $16,000 speakers but at CES that isn't even expensive:14:

You have not really mentioned what you listen to. If it's rock you can skip the magnepans and save yourself some time. You have not mentioned your budget.

My show report is coming - I have a best budget rooms grouping based on speakers under $10k. I have sent in several pages so far but they need to be edited and pictures fixed up a bit I hope. I looked at my five budget speakers - they're all completely different in size, design shape, power requirements. One is an electrostat, one uses a ribbon, one is a two way box, one is a crossoverless design with funky looks and the other is just funny looking in a Fargo Steve Bushemi kinda way. I didn't think that would happen. Indeed the upper priced best of list may be even more diverse.

I think though that the best stuff seems to start in the $4500 and up camp and not from the usual suspects.

koven
01-17-2010, 01:59 PM
quick update...

1) totem dealer is dropping off the forests this afternoon
2) fritz brought over his carbon 7's yesterday
3) picked up a pair of joseph audio rm7si locally
4) decided to get the ushers too... so the x-719 and proac response 1.5 will be shipped out to me tomorrow

my 805's have officially been sold. if anyone is interested, i made a video of the 805's playing some music ~two weeks ago, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HI9zO3Mp9I
yeah i know, not even close to how they sound in person but maybe it'll help someone.. i know when i look for new speakers, i like checking for videos on youtube just to get an idea of their sound, although videos like that are scarce

anyway, i'll report back once i play around with the totem/joseph audio/fritz... will snap some pics and if anyone is interested i could probably make a video of each one playing some music too



Have you ever auditioned one of these larger ProAc speakers? I'm a big fan of their smaller speakers, but the larger ones sound boxy to me.

this will be my first time hearing proac speakers... there are no local dealers unfortunately


Yes, let us know about the Frtiz too, look interesting.

the fritz carbon 7's are officially in my room.... fritz actually brought over a brand new pair so i'm giving them some time to burn in.. out of the box, they sound very crisp and open with great resolution.. bass is notable strength, but again, i've only had them for so long i'll reserve my comments until later..

on a side note, it was a great experience chatting with and meeting fritz.. he is very friendly, loves to chat about speakers, no high pressure sales pitch or anything like that... and of course, extremely knowledgeable, i learned a lot from him.


For what it's worth I felt the Usher room was one of the better rooms (maybe top 15) at the CES show - of course they were $16,000 speakers but at CES that isn't even expensive:14:

You have not really mentioned what you listen to. If it's rock you can skip the magnepans and save yourself some time. You have not mentioned your budget.

My show report is coming - I have a best budget rooms grouping based on speakers under $10k. I have sent in several pages so far but they need to be edited and pictures fixed up a bit I hope. I looked at my five budget speakers - they're all completely different in size, design shape, power requirements. One is an electrostat, one uses a ribbon, one is a two way box, one is a crossoverless design with funky looks and the other is just funny looking in a Fargo Steve Bushemi kinda way. I didn't think that would happen. Indeed the upper priced best of list may be even more diverse.

I think though that the best stuff seems to start in the $4500 and up camp and not from the usual suspects.

i mainly listen to rock/jazz/vocals/alternative... with some electronic/pop/r&b/rap on the side

my budget is <$2k and do not mind (actually, i prefer) buying used..

i listened to the magnepans this weekend.. it was a very interesting experience.. long story short, i didn't fall in love w/ their sound and i dont think they'd work well in my relatively small room nor would i be giving them enough power... unfortunately they did not have any dynaudios on demo nor would they let me take anything home

Ajani
01-17-2010, 03:11 PM
i listened to the magnepans this weekend.. it was a very interesting experience.. long story short, i didn't fall in love w/ their sound and i dont think they'd work well in my relatively small room nor would i be giving them enough power... unfortunately they did not have any dynaudios on demo nor would they let me take anything home

Sounds like my experience with the Maggies... It was a truly 'unique' experience but definitely wasn't my style....

I also had the same problems with the 805s... When I first auditioned the 805S and CM1 they were my favorite speakers.... but after some extended listening sessions I found they irritated my ears... Which is what has kept me from considering buying either of them....

koven
01-17-2010, 04:14 PM
^ yeah, definitely unique but i dont think it's for me

anyway, totem forests just got dropped off... the mahogany finish is gorgeous

here's a quick shot..... time to do some listening!

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9088/josephtotemfritz.jpg
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4270/josephtotemfritz2.jpg

Ajani
01-17-2010, 04:22 PM
Did I mention how jealous I am???

If you read the current (or even the old) review(s) of the Forest in Stereophile, they make it clear that the speakers don't sound anywhere near their potential unless you load them (with sand or kitty litter - in a bag inside the speaker, not directly into the cabinet).... So you might want to try loading them before making a final verdict on them...

02audionoob
01-17-2010, 05:21 PM
Ah...so the ProAc speakers are small. I was apparently thinking of a different model...a floorstander with those drivers is what I was thinking. Anyway...are you going to get them all at the same height?

poppachubby
01-18-2010, 03:36 AM
Ah...so the ProAc speakers are small. I was apparently thinking of a different model...a floorstander with those drivers is what I was thinking. Anyway...are you going to get them all at the same height?

Second that...don't even plug them in without stands or some elevation.

audio amateur
01-18-2010, 03:50 AM
Them Carbon 7's need stands. Looking really good otherwise :-)

koven
01-18-2010, 01:19 PM
i dont have the proac's yet.... it shipped out along with the usher's today, i should have them on Friday, if not Monday at the latest

what's in the picture: joseph audio rm7si, totem forest, fritz carbon 7

and yes, of course i'm raising them to appropriate height.. you gotta give me more credit than that, you guys didn't think i was laying on the floor listening to them did u? :)

koven
01-18-2010, 01:39 PM
so some quick impressions after listening for a few hours last night...

joseph audio rm7si:

these have the 120db "infinite" slope crossovers... the sound is EXTREMELY smooth, there is NO sign of harshness or fatigue at all when listening to these... on the other hand, it doesn't sound as detailed because of this... maybe even a bit recessed... i would say these might be TOO warm for my taste.. the bass is decent, not as tight as the fritz or totems though. they image very well but overall, they lacked musicality/energy... they sound nice and smooth but can also be described as dull/boring... not the funnest speaker to listen to.. but of course it depends on who you ask... for the price i paid, i think they are an extremely good vaule

totem forest:

okay, i was pretty impressed with these... these reminded me of the 805's in terms of openness... they were just as airy and detailed but not as harsh/fatiguing. the bass is what impressed me the most. very tight and clean with lots of presence and authority, feels like it goes deeper than the monitors. imaging was off the charts, the soundstage was HUGE.... like i mentioned, they really reminded me of a better version of the 805's... less harshness/sibilance, more bass, better speed/attack/PRAT, all that while retaining the open/airy sound... pretty much just what i was looking for.... if i hadn't heard the fritz speakers, i would be all over the forests


fritz carbon 7:

these are blowing my mind right now, ive never heard scan-speak drivers but they are INCREDIBLE. the carbon 7's throws just as big a soundstage and image just as well, if not better than the forests. the sound is smoother than forests, but it does not lose detail like the joseph audios. the bass is amazing for a monitor, really not far off from the forests... maybe even better than the forests if i get them on sand-filled stands. i was also impressed with how well the highs extend without sounding harsh... the sound is just so open, natural and life-like. the timbre is quite accurate. it's really an excellent speaker in terms of neutrality, tone and value. definitely more on this later. i cant believe these only cost 1700 brand new, i would take them over the 805's anyday.


will give the totems more time but at this point, they are more expensive and i prefer the carbon 7's. joseph audio's are nice but not for me. i'm very curious to see how the proac's sound when they arrive... same with the ushers.. i have very high hopes/expectations for both. will be interestnig to see how they compare to the fritz.

audio amateur
01-18-2010, 02:50 PM
Id really like to hear the scan speaks some day. People say they are some of the bass drivers you can buy.
Thanks for giving us your thoughts Koven. If you dont mind, we wouldnt mind more pics :D
Especially of the Carbons on stands if you don't mind ;) you might want to cut out the outside light if you take pictures, but you'll need a flash if you do that.

koven
01-18-2010, 03:05 PM
Id really like to hear the scan speaks some day. People say they are some of the bass drivers you can buy.
Thanks for giving us your thoughts Koven. If you dont mind, we wouldnt mind more pics :D
Especially of the Carbons on stands if you don't mind ;) you might want to cut out the outside light if you take pictures, but you'll need a flash if you do that.


no problem, i'll definitely try to get some better pics... my camera isn't the best though, just an old point & shoot

as for stands.. my temporary solution is placing the monitors on top of one another w/ that 6" stand on the bottom, which gets pretty close to ear-level... but if i decide to go w/ monitors instead of towers.. i'll probably purchase the ascend tp-24 pedestal stand and fill them w/ sand

harley .guy07
01-18-2010, 06:09 PM
I am very interested how the Ushers stand up to the Fritz speakers since I to have heard the Scan Speak drivers are top notch. I know that Madisound makes a floor standing kit called the Scan Speak revelator tower and it has received great reviews everywhere. I am very interested in seeing how the Ushers stack up.

audio amateur
01-19-2010, 03:42 AM
Id really like to hear the scan speaks some day. People say they are some of the bass drivers you can buy.
Thanks for giving us your thoughts Koven. If you dont mind, we wouldnt mind more pics :D
Especially of the Carbons on stands if you don't mind ;) you might want to cut out the outside light if you take pictures, but you'll need a flash if you do that.
*some of the best drivers

koven
01-19-2010, 02:44 PM
just got the tracking #'s..

proac will be here 1/22
usher will be here tomorrow 1/19

Mr Peabody
01-19-2010, 06:10 PM
Good deal. What's the brand name of Fritz's speakers? I want to find the website to have a look.

Ajani
01-19-2010, 06:44 PM
http://www.fritzspeakers.com/

Mr Peabody
01-19-2010, 06:51 PM
thanks. I've not heard of them before.

Ajani
01-19-2010, 06:57 PM
thanks. I've not heard of them before.

This thread introduced me to them as well.... It appears to be a boutique brand using high quality parts to create DIY (yourself being Mr Fritz in this case) speakers, and selling them direct over the net to keep costs down...

I find it interesting how the direct-sales-over-the-net market appears to be gaining ground...

koven
01-19-2010, 07:41 PM
yeah, i doubt many people have heard of fritz, it's a one man operation, i had just learned about it recently as well.. what caught my attention was that he was local so i gave him a call... he's very friendly and loves to talk about speakers, and was happy to bring them to my home for a demo.. how could i say no?

i certainly did not expect to like them better than the forests.... partly since they are half the cost, but mainly because of the endless praise i've read about the forests.. i was wrong though. if you guys are interested, definitely shoot him an email, or even call him. he is a cool guy and very down-to-earth. not pushy at all, just loves to talk speakers. i actually learned a lot from him, he's very experienced and has heard and played with countless speakers.

btw, for what it's worth, i believe these are the same mid drivers that some high-end brands use, like wilson audio, vienna acoustics, merlin, etc

anyway, snapped some more pics with my flash on this time... more to come when i get the ushers/proacs




http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7259/fritzfront.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3838/fritzback.jpg



in case anyone is wondering, the drivers used on the carbon7's are: ScanSpeak D2905/9500 1.1" textile dome tweeter, ScanSpeak 18W/8545K 7" carbon fiber/paper cone


http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1135/all32.jpg

Mr Peabody
01-19-2010, 08:54 PM
Fritz's website says he's been doing this since 1973.

audio amateur
01-20-2010, 05:03 AM
It appears to be a boutique brand using high quality parts to create DIY (yourself being Mr Fritz in this case) speakers, and selling them direct over the net to keep costs down...

LOL! would that make it DIF?

poppachubby
01-20-2010, 05:37 AM
No, it would be DIYBGAGTDIFY. I suppose you can't work that one out? Quite simply, Do-It-Yourself-But-Get-Another-Guy-To-Do-It-For-You.

koven
01-20-2010, 01:34 PM
No, it would be DIYBGAGTDIFY. I suppose you can't work that one out? Quite simply, Do-It-Yourself-But-Get-Another-Guy-To-Do-It-For-You.

sounds about right :p

btw, the ushers have arrived!

frenchmon
01-22-2010, 11:41 AM
Hey Koven...got any updated pictures or reviews with the other speakers??? I'm very interested in your findings.


frechmon

frenchmon
01-22-2010, 11:46 AM
double post.

frenchmon
01-22-2010, 11:48 AM
yeah, i doubt many people have heard of fritz, it's a one man operation, i had just learned about it recently as well.. what caught my attention was that he was local so i gave him a call... he's very friendly and loves to talk about speakers, and was happy to bring them to my home for a demo.. how could i say no?

i certainly did not expect to like them better than the forests.... partly since they are half the cost, but mainly because of the endless praise i've read about the forests.. i was wrong though. if you guys are interested, definitely shoot him an email, or even call him. he is a cool guy and very down-to-earth. not pushy at all, just loves to talk speakers. i actually learned a lot from him, he's very experienced and has heard and played with countless speakers.

btw, for what it's worth, i believe these are the same mid drivers that some high-end brands use, like wilson audio, vienna acoustics, merlin, etc

anyway, snapped some more pics with my flash on this time... more to come when i get the ushers/proacs




http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7259/fritzfront.jpg
http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/3838/fritzback.jpg



in case anyone is wondering, the drivers used on the carbon7's are: ScanSpeak D2905/9500 1.1" textile dome tweeter, ScanSpeak 18W/8545K 7" carbon fiber/paper cone


http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1135/all32.jpg


What pieces of gear do you have there? Is that a Deca piece? A Macintosh preamp? And what CDP is that and what cable do you use? IT all looks very nice.


frenchmon

koven
01-22-2010, 12:49 PM
hi frenchmon, thanks for the compliment

i'll give an update + pics this weekend with the proac response 1.5's and usher x-719's

as for my system.. i'm using my PC+PS3 as a source, feeding into a peachtree decco for DAC/pre, and then into a mcintosh mc7100 amp

speaker cable is kimber 8tc... interconnect is kimber hero

frenchmon
01-22-2010, 02:23 PM
Can that Decco be used as a tubed preamp and DAC from my computer at the same time?

frenchmon

koven
01-22-2010, 07:20 PM
Yes, that's how I'm using it right now, as a DAC and tube pre.

Peachtree also has a newer/improved version called the Nova.

koven
01-22-2010, 11:53 PM
okay, i thought the usher x-719's were a bit underwhelming... the build quality is probably one of the best ive ever seen, but the sound didn't impress me much. the bass was great no complaints there, the highs were well extended but a bit harsh at times, and the mids were a bit recessed. also, it didn't sound natural.. kind of artificial/digital sounding, but that could just be my system's problem. during complex music, it would often sound congested... all the details are there but just not separated/distinguished enough.. also sounded a bit thin compared to the forests and carbon 7's. it throws a nice horizontal & vertical soundstage but it lacks depth, it didn't have a 3D quality to it like the carbon 7's... anyway, i don't want to make it seem like i'm hating the x-719's, they do have many upsides but it's tough to compare 805's, forests, and carbon 7's to a <$1000 speaker... and honestly, the x-719's don't hold up too well to that group, but they are excellent competitors in their price range.

now.. a bit more on the carbon 7's, i'm really falling in love with these. the music sounds so full and lush, it fills my entire room with ease unlike the x-719's. the sound is very 3d and life-like. it handles all types of music very well too

the proac's got delayed and should be here tomorrow... i'm the most curious to hear these.. cus i've read so much about proac, but have never heard it

harley .guy07
01-23-2010, 08:54 AM
That was what I was wondering is how the Ushers compared. They are Ushers more budget minded speaker so I had a feeling that they would not hold up with the others in your group but Me being an usher fan was hoping for it to be different. But Scan Speak drivers are a hard driver to beat if set up and crossed over properly so really its starting to sound like the Fitz speakers are starting to win you over.

harley .guy07
01-23-2010, 09:01 AM
I went to Fritz website and looked at his speakers and he has some interesting models on his site. One thing to consider is the fact that he is not going to have the overhead that the bigger companies have to deal with so the markup of his products probably is not as high as the other speakers you have there. So to me it seems that you are getting more for your money and I believe it is starting to show as well.

Jack in Wilmington
01-23-2010, 12:36 PM
Very interesting impressions on the Ushers. I was waiting to jump into the discussion after you listened to the X719's. Being an owner, I didn't want to influance you. I had similar thoughts when I first hooked up my pair and expressed my concerns to the dealer. Thinking that maybe my associated equipment might be the problem. He assured me that all would be fine after the drivers had time to loosen up. Now here I am 2 years later listening to a jazz DVD-A on a full set of Ushers as I'm typing this with a smile on my face. Knowing that I was thinking the same things about them.

I'll grant you that I didn't listen to the speakers that you're comparing to the Ushers. You have what I would consider the best way to check out speakers. In your own home, with your equipment will give you optimum listening conditions.

I listened to Dynaudio Focus 140's, Von Schweikert VR-1, Opera-Consonance Eric-1 and the Quad 12L's. I wanted to listen to ProAc's but couldn't find a dealer. I did check out Totem to here the Rainmaker and got to listen to the Forest, Sttaf and Arro also. Liked the Forest especially, but was more than I could afford.

Looks like you have some great speakers to choose from. Good Luck

Mr Peabody
01-23-2010, 05:09 PM
Jack, you decided on Usher over the Focus? Oh well, you have the same headphone rig as me, you can't be all bad :) I think the Focus 110 is the best bang for the buck speaker in that $1 to 2k range or more. It's a shame Koven couldn't have gotten a Dyn in the mix.

Jack in Wilmington
01-23-2010, 06:42 PM
Mr P, it was a real close choice. If they had been at the same shop, it could have gone the other way. It ultimately came down to price. The Usher dealer was able to discount the X-719's and the Dynaudio dealer was firm on the price. I knew that I would eventually want to get the matching center channel speaker and at $1000 list, any money I could save meant that I could make that purchase sooner. I just picked up a pair of Usher S-520 for surrounds. The wife has had her eyes on my Paradigm Mini Monitors to go with her new TV in the family room, so I made her a deal. The Dyns will always be on my "got to audition" list when it comes time to upgrade..

Mr Peabody
01-23-2010, 06:45 PM
Jack, I'm just giving you the business. .

Jack in Wilmington
01-23-2010, 06:52 PM
Jack, I'm just giving you the business. .

I didn't want to get on your $hit list with RGA.

jrhymeammo
01-23-2010, 07:34 PM
I used to own a pair of B&W Signature 805, and I think you are making a good decision.
They were very good speakers, but I didn't think they were worth the price at the time.

Currently, I own a pair of Tyler Acoustics Reference Monitor.
I don't have experience with SEAS Millenium tweets or their new Decade line, but the Reference products are worth auditioning.

Here is a link.
http://tyleracoustics.com/home_demo.html


Prior to purchasing the Tyler A, I had seriously considered Fritz, but decided to go with a local guy instead (I dreadfully live in KY). I haven't heard the D2905/9500, but the Revelator tweets are very very good. I believe Fritz offers Revelator upgrade. If I'm right, you might want to audition the upgraded pair. I imagine the upcharge to be around $200.

JRA

frenchmon
01-24-2010, 12:33 PM
Kovan...Do the Fritz Speakers come with grills?

frenchmon

harley .guy07
01-24-2010, 09:07 PM
Kovan...Do the Fritz Speakers come with grills?

frenchmon

Its funny that you ask that question because tonight my girlfriend just commented on the fact that she liked the fact that I run my speakers with the grills off because as she puts it they look more high tech and to me I just like nothing between me and the drivers. but I understand that grills are sometimes needed to keep a clean look. I am not putting down your question by any means but it was just ironic how my girlfriend made that comment at about he same time you posted your question.

Mr Peabody
01-24-2010, 09:45 PM
I listen with mine off but when I'm done I put them back on. With kids around they can sometimes help.

frenchmon
01-25-2010, 02:07 PM
I take mine of as well. But I ask because I cant understand why a Speaker company would not include them, especially at the price they ask for some of their gear. I think one such company that you have to buy what aught to be included in the price is Totem Acoustics.

frenchmon

koven
01-25-2010, 03:25 PM
frenchmon, fritz builds speakers to order and will include grills if requested.. most people prefer no grills though.. i have no wife/kids/pets so im not too worried about protection

mr peabody, yeah i really wish i could have some dynaudios in my home to compare.. maybe someday in the future i'll pick something up from audiogon

jack in wilmington, to be fair, the x-719's i have are brand new so burn-in could definitely be the issue.. i haven't gave up on them yet, i will give them some time to burn-in and re-evaluate my thoughts

Jack in Wilmington
01-25-2010, 05:13 PM
frenchmon, fritz builds speakers to order and will include grills if requested.. most people prefer no grills though.. i have no wife/kids/pets so im not too worried about protection

mr peabody, yeah i really wish i could have some dynaudios in my home to compare.. maybe someday in the future i'll pick something up from audiogon

jack in wilmington, to be fair, the x-719's i have are brand new so burn-in could definitely be the issue.. i haven't gave up on them yet, i will give them some time to burn-in and re-evaluate my thoughts

Any thoughts on the ProAc's yet? And some more pictures too. All those speakers reminds me of my dealer's room where he has all the bookshelf speakers.

koven
01-25-2010, 07:21 PM
unfortunately i missed the delivery on the proacs again..hopefully tomrrow will be different

here are some pics of the ushers .. my cheap camera doesnt do them justice.. they are really nice in person



http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3176/x7192.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9223/x7193.jpg

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5865/x719.jpg

harley .guy07
01-25-2010, 09:48 PM
Usher sure makes good looking speakers and yes I think a new camera is in your near future.

koven
01-27-2010, 01:57 AM
after a few hours of listening, i'm really enjoying the proac's.. i definitely prefer them over the forests.. the response 1.5's seem to fill my room better and the midrange is smoother/more natural.. it even makes the forests sound a bit thin/harsh.. i think the bass is tighter on the forests but the proac's just get the music right imo, very similar to the way the carbon 7's do..

anyway, i got the proac's for a really good price so now the decision is tough... i think i like the carbon 7's a bit better, but the response 1.5s are pretty close... much closer than the ushers or the forests,, i'm going to have to spend more time w/ both and do some a/b'ing before making a choice

i think the proacs are gorgeous btw, especially in mahogany, they look much classier than the forests imo

poppachubby
01-27-2010, 03:46 AM
You've got $80 000 of speakers in your living room. Have you considered any electro-stat/panel at all? I heard some Martin Logan's recently that made me want to cry. Quite honestly, I feel that an ESL is quite possibly everything that a box speaker listener is chasing, but may never get.

audio amateur
01-27-2010, 06:29 AM
$80 000??

harley .guy07
01-27-2010, 10:03 AM
Hey if you have the money and know that you can resell all the speakers you don't choose and get your money back he is doing the best form of speaker comparisons that you can do. In home demos are the best way to get a real feel for the speakers and see which ones you really like in your room instead of just going off specs or taking a chance.

poppachubby
01-27-2010, 12:05 PM
I'm not knocking him, I was exagerating. He's obviously fortunate enough to be able to audition everything, and I applaud the effort. I'm just saying that I think that Martin Logan could be a real option for him.

audio amateur
01-27-2010, 12:48 PM
Ah right thought so.

Ajani
01-27-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm just saying that I think that Martin Logan could be a real option for him.

I agree... if he has the chance he really should add something different to the mix (some kind of planar or maybe horn speaker - better yet - both).... You'll never know what sounds best to you until you try it...

koven
01-27-2010, 03:42 PM
i've actually had some brief experience with the ML Vantage

when i went to pick up my 805's from a fellow Audiogon'er, he actually had the vantage as an upgrade to the 805's... however, the funny thing is, he thought the 805's sounded better. he bought the vantages after auditioning in stores, only to find out that they didn't sound nearly as good in his room, i don't think electronics were his problem because he had a whole mcintosh rack w/ mono amps which had to be at least $10k all together

his problem was, his wife would not let him keep throwing around money on switching speakers so he was stuck w/ the ML's and his wife was forcing him to sell his old speakers (805's). we did some short a/b comparisons between the 805 and ML and there was no doubt in both of our minds that the 805's sounded more life-like/smoother. of course the ML's put out more bass, which is expected. something about it just didn't sound as natural or dynamic as the 805's.

anyway, i'm pretty sure that can be attributed to his less than ideal listening room, as i've heard planar/esl are very sensitive to room. but in this situation, the ML's did not sound good and since it was a first impression for me, i never looked into it further


on a side note, i did go listen to magnepans and like i've mentioned earlier in this thread, i did not fall in love w/ their sound.. i can totally see why someone would, but i don't think it's for me to be honest.... it sounded a bit soft, somewhat lacking in energy and dynamics especially compared to the proac and carbon 7's


but despite these two experiences, i would still love to have either a magenpan or ML in my room so i can see for myself... i will try to contact some local dealers for a home demo.. however, if they do not allow it, i probably wont go through the effort of buying a used planar/esl for demo'ing... because my first two experiences didn't go well, and also because i dont think my room and electronics would bring them to full potential

Mr Peabody
01-27-2010, 05:29 PM
I suspect the Vantage wasn't set up correctly. The active bass module has a control to add or subtract 10 dB and sounds best with a lot of room around it, not close to walls or back wall. The ML should have sounded great with Mac but my opinion of Mac is dropping as I'm hearing more and more not so good set ups with Mac.

ML's are great but maybe not for every one. What you miss is a physical sense of the music as the electrostat doesn't excite the air in the same way a dynamic driver would. Could be why he had the bass cranked. The benefit when set up correctly is an unmatched sense of presence. Match that with electronics able to convey presence, like tubes, and you have magic.

I haven't been to the site but I remember seeing an add for ML at Audio Advisor. Return shipping on speakers like that would be a bear, you'd have to be pretty sure you were serious about possibly keeping them, or just have the funds to be able to afford the audition.

Mr Peabody
01-27-2010, 05:52 PM
Although it seems about half the members here have Maggies I for one do not share in that enthusiasm. I don't dislike them in the way I do certain other brands but I definitely don't like them enough to own them. Some say the 1.6 is a great deal in that $1.6k range but when I can buy a Dynaudio Focus 110 for the same price I can't quite agree. And, the value factor of the 1.6 shrinks when you consider one would almost certain have to use a sub which would lead to further expense.

Now, if your intent was to not use a box speaker no matter what and on a budget the 1.6 is a good deal, one might say your only choice.

Maggies and ML have nothing in common especially the sound character and technology.

jrhymeammo
01-27-2010, 08:14 PM
Some say the 1.6 is a great deal in that $1.6k range but when I can buy a Dynaudio Focus 110 for the same price I can't quite agree. And, the value factor of the 1.6 shrinks when you consider one would almost certain have to use a sub which would lead to further expense.

Now, if your intent was to not use a box speaker no matter what and on a budget the 1.6 is a good deal, one might say your only choice.

Strongly agreed.[Runs out the door]
Easy gents, it's all a matter of taste.

vlastoc
01-28-2010, 03:05 AM
I'm not sure, but perhaps i'm out of price range with my tip: SPENDOR A6.
Is there a possibilty to hear them in your area?

http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/products/h63sp103.gif

poppachubby
01-28-2010, 03:34 AM
Funny, my experience couldn't have been more different. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents. The ML I heard were hooked into Mac gear also. I would have to think that they weren't configured correctly when you heard them...oh well. Maybe a pair of the ironically named Spendor?

Ajani
01-28-2010, 06:12 AM
Strongly agreed.[Runs out the door]
Easy gents, it's all a matter of taste.

Obviously you don't have any taste if you don't think maggie is totally aweso.... oh wait a tic, I don't like Maggies either... ummm... scratch that 1st point...

(Audio is all about tastes - at $2K my top choice would be a pair of Revel Performa M22's. I'd also take the Dynaudio Focus 140 over the Maggies. To each his own)

Ajani
01-28-2010, 06:15 AM
on a side note, i did go listen to magnepans and like i've mentioned earlier in this thread, i did not fall in love w/ their sound.. i can totally see why someone would, but i don't think it's for me to be honest.... it sounded a bit soft, somewhat lacking in energy and dynamics especially compared to the proac and carbon 7's

:shocked: Oh yeah, we already discussed that... I tend to forget things when threads last more than half a page... My bad :blush2:

Feanor
01-28-2010, 07:18 AM
Although it seems about half the members here have Maggies I for one do not share in that enthusiasm. I don't dislike them in the way I do certain other brands but I definitely don't like them enough to own them. Some say the 1.6 is a great deal in that $1.6k range but when I can buy a Dynaudio Focus 110 for the same price I can't quite agree. And, the value factor of the 1.6 shrinks when you consider one would almost certain have to use a sub which would lead to further expense.

....
Says who? The MG 1.6 is virtually flat to 40 Hz. You only need a sub if you listen lower than that. Virtually no standmounts and not many floorstanders in the price range do any better.

I have a sub, but then I occassionally listen to pipe organ music.

frenchmon
01-28-2010, 10:42 AM
I'm not sure, but perhaps i'm out of price range with my tip: SPENDOR A6.
Is there a possibilty to hear them in your area?

http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/products/h63sp103.gif


I sure love the Canton's in the original posting...you own a pair?

frenchmon

frenchmon
01-28-2010, 10:47 AM
Oh I see you own the CANTON Vento 807DC and the Eorgo's..How do you REALLY like them and how do they compare to other speakers such as the Dyaudio's, Splendor Proac and some of the other well known speakers? You don't see much fuss about Cantons in the States but I love what I've read about the reference series.

frenchmon

frenchmon
01-28-2010, 10:50 AM
Obviously you don't have any taste if you don't think maggie is totally aweso.... oh wait a tic, I don't like Maggies either... ummm... scratch that 1st point...

(Audio is all about tastes - at $2K my top choice would be a pair of Revel Performa M22's. I'd also take the Dynaudio Focus 140 over the Maggies. To each his own)

While I've not heard Maggies, I've listened to the Revels and the 140's and think they are great sounding speakers. I really liked the Revels but they are nothing special to look at.

frenchmon

Ajani
01-28-2010, 11:34 AM
While I've not heard Maggies, I've listened to the Revels and the 140's and think they are great sounding speakers. I really liked the Revels but they are nothing special to look at.

frenchmon

Yep, sadly Revel could use a makeover... I love the sound of their speakers, but the aesthetics are merely passable.... Especially compared to my other favorite speaker brand - Monitor Audio...

koven
01-29-2010, 03:36 PM
i've heard the revel floor stander when i was auditioning the thiels and magnepan, they did not impress at all, in both sound and looks.

vlastoc: no spendor dealers in my area unfortunately, i've read a lot about how great spendors.. they're on my list of things to watch for on audiogon.. along w/ dynaudio and harbeth



anyway, quick update.... i'm really liking the proac response 1.5's for the price i paid (around $1k) the mahogany finish is really nice and the speakers look very classy.. i actually like them better with the grill on

it's quite hard to decide between the carbon 7's and proac.. i prefer the carbon 7's sound but it's not by a lot, i'm not sure if they're $700 better.. i like the proac's looks better too... but im going to spend another weekend w/ both before i decide.. it's looking like the proac's are staying though. although i hope that doesn't take away from the carbon 7's because i still find them mind blowingly good, just more of a financial decision since i'm quite frugal

frenchmon
01-29-2010, 07:29 PM
How about some pictures koven? Sounds like you got a good price...is there a dealer in your area? Is he online?

frenchmon

koven
01-30-2010, 02:40 PM
i got it used off audigon... heres some quick pics

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2681/alllu.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1669/all2w.jpg

Ajani
01-30-2010, 03:08 PM
i've heard the revel floor stander when i was auditioning the thiels and magnepan, they did not impress at all, in both sound and looks.

vlastoc: no spendor dealers in my area unfortunately, i've read a lot about how great spendors.. they're on my list of things to watch for on audiogon.. along w/ dynaudio and harbeth



anyway, quick update.... i'm really liking the proac response 1.5's for the price i paid (around $1k) the mahogany finish is really nice and the speakers look very classy.. i actually like them better with the grill on

it's quite hard to decide between the carbon 7's and proac.. i prefer the carbon 7's sound but it's not by a lot, i'm not sure if they're $700 better.. i like the proac's looks better too... but im going to spend another weekend w/ both before i decide.. it's looking like the proac's are staying though. although i hope that doesn't take away from the carbon 7's because i still find them mind blowingly good, just more of a financial decision since i'm quite frugal

The Proacs seems the better value for your money (especially considering you don't need to buy stands for them).

If the difference in sound quality between them and the Fritz isn't substantial, and you don't have any plans to upgrade your electronics (which might increase the difference), then the Proacs are probably the right choice...

koven
01-30-2010, 03:51 PM
honestly i do think the fritz sound better than the response 1.5's... whether it's a slight difference or not, im still trying to decide that.. and whether if its worth the extra money.

i will do lots of listening to both this weekend.

02audionoob
01-30-2010, 04:02 PM
The ProAc speakers I've heard seem to really shine with top notch electronics, so I wonder if the subtle difference might remain subtle even if you upgrade other equipment in the system.

koven
01-30-2010, 04:25 PM
If I do keep the Proac's, I will likely sell my mcintosh SS for a tube... i'm thinking audio research or maybe prima luna

Mr Peabody
01-30-2010, 04:43 PM
If you decide to switch amps I hope you audition like you did the speakers. You might be surprised by the sound of Audio Research. I find it a bit unique compared to most tube gear. I hope you can throw some Conrad Johnson on your list when you get to that point.

02audionoob
01-30-2010, 04:43 PM
If I do keep the Proac's, I will likely sell my mcintosh SS for a tube... i'm thinking audio research or maybe prima luna

I like your thinking.

...but that's coming from a guy who has ProAc towers and an Audio Research tube amp.

poppachubby
01-30-2010, 06:01 PM
Great space koven! Perfect little nook, I assume the panels keep things more or less neutral? All things being equal in the room, I wonder if any of those speakers would respond better or poorer with any changes. It is however, an ideal space.

frenchmon
01-30-2010, 06:15 PM
i got it used off audigon... heres some quick pics

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2681/alllu.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1669/all2w.jpg


oooooweeee! Whats your address man...I can be there in a day.

frenchmon

frenchmon
01-30-2010, 06:18 PM
If I do keep the Proac's, I will likely sell my mcintosh SS for a tube... i'm thinking audio research or maybe prima luna

Dont you have a hybrid set up now with the tubed NOVA? I would think its warm now?

frenchmon

frenchmon
01-30-2010, 06:23 PM
I wonder if the drivers in the Totem is really the same as the drivers in the Swan Diva? They sure look like it. Looks like the drivers in drivers in the Proac's. are Seas.

frenchmon

koven
01-31-2010, 05:47 PM
^ Yeah, I think Totem and Swan both use HiVi drivers.

koven
01-31-2010, 06:29 PM
Great space koven! Perfect little nook, I assume the panels keep things more or less neutral? All things being equal in the room, I wonder if any of those speakers would respond better or poorer with any changes. It is however, an ideal space.

Thanks! The room is fairly empty so it sounded really sharp/harsh. The absorbers definitely smoothed out the sound. I think I'm going to add some corner/bass traps soon.

koven
01-31-2010, 06:31 PM
As for the Proac vs Fritz... I moved everything else out of the way and did a lot of comparing today between the two.

My initial reaction was to save money and go w/ the Proac's but I think my mind has changed. The Carbon 7's do sound that much better.. I will confirm later though, not 100% sure yet.

jrhymeammo
01-31-2010, 07:07 PM
As for the Proac vs Fritz... I moved everything else out of the way and did a lot of comparing today between the two.

My initial reaction was to save money and go w/ the Proac's but I think my mind has changed. The Carbon 7's do sound that much better.. I will confirm later though, not 100% sure yet.

Have you considered the Revelator option?

audio amateur
02-01-2010, 05:30 AM
Talk about speaker heaven! Nice showroom you got there!
The ProAc drivers do look similar to SEAS. Doesn't mean they are though.
However, i've always thought Totem used Dynaudio drivers throughout most of their range.

poppachubby
02-01-2010, 05:40 AM
DIY bass trap recipe: http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/traps/traps.html

Mr Peabody
02-01-2010, 06:10 AM
I was told by a dealer Dynaudio no longer OEM's for other manufacturers. Not sure when this came about but it seems a lot of speaker lines sound would have changed.

Feanor
02-01-2010, 06:15 AM
I was told by a dealer Dynaudio no longer OEM's for other manufacturers. Not sure when this came about but it seems a lot of speaker lines sound would have changed.
It's certainly the case that they don't sell for DIY anymore.

As for OEM, they might have "grandfathered" some customers, e.g. Totem (?).

harley .guy07
02-01-2010, 09:15 AM
Have you considered the Revelator option?

I have heard many good things about the Madisound Revelator and have given thought to it as well when I get ready for an upgrade. From what I have heard they are some of the best drviers Scan Speak makes and when put together with a top notch crossover and cabinet they are a unstoppable force. I heard people compare them to speakers system in the close to 5 figure mark with good results and Madisound sells the 2 way kit for around 1500 and 2.5 kit for around 2000 dollars. Not bad if you consider price and the floore space the Revelator speakers take up.

koven
02-01-2010, 12:59 PM
I was told by a dealer Dynaudio no longer OEM's for other manufacturers. Not sure when this came about but it seems a lot of speaker lines sound would have changed.

I've heard the same.

The drivers in the Totems are Dynaudio replicas called HiVi.

koven
02-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Have you considered the Revelator option?

I've asked Fritz about the Revelator upgrade, and he was honest and told me he doesn't think it's worth it. He said he'll charge me extra and put them in if I really want, but his honest opinion was that the current combination he's using has the best results.

audio amateur
02-01-2010, 01:56 PM
The new Illuminator series woofers from Scan-Speak look absolutely mental:
http://www.geocities.jp/maronie44/img/p_item/scanspeak/15wu_rear.jpg

Talk about a non conventional motor structure! I believe it can handle plenty of excursion too

koven
02-01-2010, 02:01 PM
Yeah, I wish I could hear the Illuminator!

koven
02-02-2010, 02:58 PM
okay guys... the proac's are up for sale now

i'm keeping the carbon 7's, they just sound too amazing to pass up

i will write a final summary/conclusion when i have time

02audionoob
02-02-2010, 08:10 PM
okay guys... the proac's are up for sale now

i'm keeping the carbon 7's, they just sound too amazing to pass up

i will write a final summary/conclusion when i have time

Are those yours with the story about financial difficulty?

atomicAdam
02-02-2010, 08:18 PM
^ yeah, definitely unique but i dont think it's for me

anyway, totem forests just got dropped off... the mahogany finish is gorgeous

here's a quick shot..... time to do some listening!



I see a lot of nice stuff, but how is your power? I heard, over and over again in my own experience and at demos, great equipment turned sour w/ bad power.

jrhymeammo
02-02-2010, 08:57 PM
I've asked Fritz about the Revelator upgrade, and he was honest and told me he doesn't think it's worth it. He said he'll charge me extra and put them in if I really want, but his honest opinion was that the current combination he's using has the best results.

Kovan,

I'm glad you are really satisfied with the Carbon 7, and I cannot doubt Fritz's honesty. ( I don't know the man). I don't want to stir you wrong, but he's not the one who decides which tweeter sounds best. It is possible he's just trying to reduce his inventory by selling overstocked items. Then again, we are just talking about a pair of tweeters here.

Don't let anyone decide what sounds best to you. I'm not saying that you are not aware of it. What if Revelators sound best to your ears? After all, you are auditioning tons of different speakers. Higher price tag does NOT guarantee satisfaction in this hobby, but different components change sound characteristic every time.

But I guess if he doesn't have a Revelator pair for demo, then it would be very hard for your audition. Also I doubt you can downgrade to less expensive tweets if you don't prefer the upgraded tweets. Congrats on your final pair (for now). Keep yourself away from the Upgradititus. :biggrin5:

JRA

harley .guy07
02-03-2010, 12:04 PM
I would still want to hear the revelator series drivers though. I have too much good press about them to not want to hear the revelator drivers before spending a good deal of money of speakers if the revelators were is a design that was good and the price was right.

koven
02-03-2010, 01:40 PM
Are those yours with the story about financial difficulty?

yes.. my financial difficulty is that i have too many speakers and need some of my cash back now!


I see a lot of nice stuff, but how is your power? I heard, over and over again in my own experience and at demos, great equipment turned sour w/ bad power.

hi adam, that's a great point but i'm fairly satisfied with my equipment... it may not be high-end, but i wouldn't call it inadequate either.. my amp is a 100wpc SS mcintosh which i think provides plenty of clean power for my relatively small room

i wish i could have taken this one step further and demo'd a bunch of amps along w/ my speakers... but unfortunately i dont have THAT much money to throw around

i really wish i could have tried some tube amps with the proac's... that could have won me over, but oh well, it is what it is, i'm extremely satisfied with the carbon 7's


Kovan,

I'm glad you are really satisfied with the Carbon 7, and I cannot doubt Fritz's honesty. ( I don't know the man). I don't want to stir you wrong, but he's not the one who decides which tweeter sounds best. It is possible he's just trying to reduce his inventory by selling overstocked items. Then again, we are just talking about a pair of tweeters here.

Don't let anyone decide what sounds best to you. I'm not saying that you are not aware of it. What if Revelators sound best to your ears? After all, you are auditioning tons of different speakers. Higher price tag does NOT guarantee satisfaction in this hobby, but different components change sound characteristic every time.

But I guess if he doesn't have a Revelator pair for demo, then it would be very hard for your audition. Also I doubt you can downgrade to less expensive tweets if you don't prefer the upgraded tweets. Congrats on your final pair (for now). Keep yourself away from the Upgradititus. :biggrin5:

JRA

hi JRA, i totally understand your point and it's a very valid one. however, i don't think it's an issue of overstocking... fritz builds speakers to order, he does not have a room stocked full of carbon 7's or anything like that.

and yes, i completely agree with the statement that higher price does not equate to better sound... the carbon 7's are a perfect example.. it also goes to show just how big the profit margin is for those large companies like b&w, proac, totem, etc

here's an interesting fact that fritz told me... he's played with plenty of proac response speakers including the new 'D' series and he told me, they actually DOWNGRADED the drivers on the new 'D' series to increase profit.. in the original response series, they used custom Seas drivers of nice quality, but now in the 'D' series, they use drivers that are half the price

as for revelators... plz see my next comment


I would still want to hear the revelator series drivers though. I have too much good press about them to not want to hear the revelator drivers before spending a good deal of money of speakers if the revelators were is a design that was good and the price was right.

hi harley, i agree. when i called fritz to tell him i'm keeping the carbon 7's, i brought up the revelators again.

fritz told me if i really wanted to hear the revelator series, he'll be glad to arrange something. he's also willing to put the carbon 7's in a tower for me.. further more, he's even willing to build a pair w/ the newest Illuminators, if i wanted to hear it

when it comes to sales, i've never dealt with a better person than Fritz. he is the epitome of customer service and the cherry on top, i can confidently say his speakers are giant-killers w/ top notch build quality.. a true hidden gem/diamond in the rough


anyway, like i mentioned earlier, i'll probably spend some time this weekend to write a final summary/conclusion of my "journey", but it'll likely be focused on how and where the carbon 7's excels over the other options i tried :)

02audionoob
02-03-2010, 01:45 PM
Sounds like Fritz's comments on ProAc and their new D series were a bit unprofessional.

audio amateur
02-03-2010, 01:50 PM
Wow, Fritz sure is dedicated to his customers!

As far as what Adam was asking about, I think he was refering to the power from the socket, not your amp.

koven
02-03-2010, 01:56 PM
Sounds like Fritz's comments on ProAc and their new D series were a bit unprofessional.

i could see why you'd think that, but in the context of our conversation, it was completely appropriate.

if i had the 'D' series in my room, and he was talking down on them, then i could see the motive. but he was actually praising my response 1.5 and even told me that he's cloned them before (many others have too), since they're so great. then from that, we started the discussion about the new 'D' series. it was completely irrelevant to my decision and more of a 'fun fact'.

to be honest, i am not that naive and can tell when someone's pressuring or pitching me something.. i'm good at reading between the lines... this was far from it, more like a friendly conversation between pals, no pressure at all

also, for what it's worth, i know i'm starting to sound like a broken record/fritz salesman, but i have no affiliation or relation to fritz's business. it just so happened that the carbon 7's blew me away so much, that i genuinely want other people to hear it, because they're missing out imo. i've heard talk abuot giant killers but this is the first time i've experienced it for myself.


Wow, Fritz sure is dedicated to his customers!

As far as what Adam was asking about, I think he was refering to the power from the socket, not your amp.

could you elaborate on that? if he's asking if i have a line/power conditioner, i do not. is that what he's referring to?

02audionoob
02-03-2010, 02:09 PM
i could see why you'd think that, but in the context of our conversation, it was completely appropriate.

if i had the 'D' series in my room, and he was talking down on them, then i could see the motive. but he was actually praising my response 1.5 and even told me that he's cloned them before (many others have too), since they're so great. then from that, we started the discussion about the new 'D' series. it was completely irrelevant to my decision and more of a 'fun fact'.

to be honest, i am not that naive and can tell when someone's pressuring or pitching me something.. i'm good at reading between the lines... this was far from it, more like a friendly conversation between pals, no pressure at all
...snip..

You missed my point, but that's ok. After your explanation of the context, I stand by what I said.

koven
02-03-2010, 02:14 PM
You missed my point, but that's ok. After your explanation of the context, I stand by what I said.

hmm then it's not ok, i'd like to understand your point so please elaborate.

please keep in mind that the discussion on proac's came AFTER i called to tell him i'm keeping the carbon 7's. thus if you're implying that fritz had any influence on my choice to keep the carbon 7's over the proac's, i'd have to say you're wrong. i did hours and hours of a/b listening between the two and my ears are what made the final decision.

however, if you're merely implying it was unprofessional for fritz to even bring up the 'D' series, i do understand you're point now, but i still disagree. i'm the one that asked for his opinion on proac's in the first place. it had no influence on my decision. i dont see it as a big deal nor am i going to jump to any conclusions. fritz' service and ethics have been superb throughout my "journey", do you believe i should toss it all away based on one negative comment about the "competitor"? i just want to know what you're getting at.

audio amateur
02-03-2010, 02:41 PM
If he's asking if i have a line/power conditioner, I do not. Is that what he's referring to?
Yes, I think that is what he is refering to. He's been recently review some gear by PS audio (multiway sockets, power cords etc).
Personally I'm a little sceptical about the benefits of this type of accessory.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this shoot out & i'm definitely keeping Fritz's name as a future reference. Oh, and Scan-Speak is now high on my list of speakers to audition.

koven
02-03-2010, 03:40 PM
Yes, I think that is what he is refering to. He's been recently review some gear by PS audio (multiway sockets, power cords etc).
Personally I'm a little sceptical about the benefits of this type of accessory.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this shoot out & i'm definitely keeping Fritz's name as a future reference. Oh, and Scan-Speak is now high on my list of speakers to audition.

Yeah, scan-speak drivers definitely need to be heard, they are really amazing... many people compare them with SEAS and I, for one, prefer the warmer sound of the scan speaks... to me, SEAS drivers sound a bit brighter/more forward.. but both are very detailed and smooth with great bass response. The scan speak drivers w/ series crossover in the carbon 7's have incredible synergy.. you cannot pin point where the sound is coming from, the two drivers blend together incredibly well. i'm sure this contributes to it's massive soundstage/imaging depth and life-like/natural presentation.

And I'm also a bit skeptical about accessories like power conditioners, cable isolators, etc etc. Honestly, I'd like to give it a shot but I doubt my system is high-end enough to benefit (if there is even a benefit) from it.

02audionoob
02-03-2010, 03:50 PM
hmm then it's not ok, i'd like to understand your point so please elaborate.

please keep in mind that the discussion on proac's came AFTER i called to tell him i'm keeping the carbon 7's. thus if you're implying that fritz had any influence on my choice to keep the carbon 7's over the proac's, i'd have to say you're wrong. i did hours and hours of a/b listening between the two and my ears are what made the final decision.

however, if you're merely implying it was unprofessional for fritz to even bring up the 'D' series, i do understand you're point now, but i still disagree. i'm the one that asked for his opinion on proac's in the first place. it had no influence on my decision. i dont see it as a big deal nor am i going to jump to any conclusions. fritz' service and ethics have been superb throughout my "journey", do you believe i should toss it all away based on one negative comment about the "competitor"? i just want to know what you're getting at.

I think it's important to clarify that I believe you made your choice with your own ears. I simply believe that if a manufacturer made a statement about his competitor's product that was as you wrote it, it was unprofessional. He questioned his competitor's motives and quality and you repeated it on the internet. It could very well be that ProAc made their decision on the drivers with their ears, too...just as you did.

Also...keep in mind...a small manufacturer makes a profit, just like a big manufacturer. Do you have any way of knowing which one has the bigger margin? I don't.

atomicAdam
02-03-2010, 04:10 PM
Yes, I think that is what he is refering to. He's been recently review some gear by PS audio (multiway sockets, power cords etc).
Personally I'm a little sceptical about the benefits of this type of accessory.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this shoot out & i'm definitely keeping Fritz's name as a future reference. Oh, and Scan-Speak is now high on my list of speakers to audition.


aa - it isn't that i've been just auditioning the PSAudio stuff, I've been listening to every power cord I could get my hands on or hear at a demo.

So far the list.

Nordost Odin - Twice, once at AudioVision in SF and once at a BAAS event. The group over whelming heard the difference.

Granite Audio #560 - I've had a two of these at my place for the past couple months. The difference between these and a standard power cord, at least in my old apartment and new house is, well, incredible. On the JRDG 102 S, on the KingRex HQ1, and on the PSAudio Quintent running the AVA gear.

PSAudio PerfectWave AC3 & AC5 - still listening to them, but the improvement over standard power cords in my home is noticeable.

Now, said time and time again, I wont argue the benefits of a clean power to anyone. You have to hear for yourself, and you have to know the condition of the power out of your wall. For me it has, from what I've heard in several demos and at my own home, tamed irritating and fatiguing highs, extended the low end, widened the soundstage, giving better dynamics, and increased detail.

Of course, if you already have perfect power out of your walls than great. But as the saying goes, junk in = junk out. I for one, believe that applies to power as equally as source.

But, on that note.

I was just making an observation from the photos. With all that $$$ worth of speakers in the room, it just peaked my curiosity to know if the condition of the power was taken into consideration.

koven
02-03-2010, 04:34 PM
I think it's important to clarify that I believe you made your choice with your own ears. I simply believe that if a manufacturer made a statement about his competitor's product that was as you wrote it, it was unprofessional. He questioned his competitor's motives and quality and you repeated it on the internet. It could very well be that ProAc made their decision on the drivers with their ears, too...just as you did.

Also...keep in mind...a small manufacturer makes a profit, just like a big manufacturer. Do you have any way of knowing which one has the bigger margin? I don't.

okay, now i see your point and i understand/partially agree. however, it is insignificant & irrelevant to the bigger picture here. it's just something that came up in discussion, his motive was not to sway me into keeping the carbon 7's.

and sure, proac could have made a decision based on their ears.. but we'll never know. however, the educated assumption would be that they did not.. they changed management and the new attitude at proac was profit, not sound. also, i dont see what's wrong with repeating facts on the internet. although damaging to proac, i'm sure there are people out there who would prefer to know.

yes, everyone makes a profit, i'm sure fritz will make money off me. but will it be as big a margain as a large manufacturer? i would bet all my money that in terms of %, it's not. fritz isn't even a "small manufacturer", it's ONE person building speakers to order. he has little to no overhead costs, he loves speakers and music, he loves his job. sure he makes a profit, but for fritz, it's sound and value that takes priority. and it's extremely evident in his work. i highly doubt that big manufacturers have the same attitude.


also, i just realized you own proac's (possibly the 'D' series?). at first, i was a bit confused about your stand in this matter, and no offense, but now i see why you're biased/defensive on this subject. so let's just end it here.

koven
02-03-2010, 04:38 PM
hi adam, two questions:

how would i know/test if the power of out my walls is "perfect" or not?

what would you recommend as a good starting point? should i go w/ aftermarket power cables first? or should i get a power line conditioner? or is it an all or nothing type of thing?

although i'm skeptical, i'm also curious. thanks in advance for any advice

Mr Peabody
02-03-2010, 05:46 PM
Not so unprofessional if it's true.

Koven I was about to take those Proacs off your hands until you spilled the beans they have cheaper drivers :)

koven
02-03-2010, 06:01 PM
Not so unprofessional if it's true.

Koven I was about to take those Proacs off your hands until you spilled the beans they have cheaper drivers :)

Exactly my thoughts, and after dealing w/ Fritz, I'm confident that he's not the type of person that would fabricate a story like that for his own benefit. Technically, although he's a one man operation, he's still considered to be in the "industry" so I'm not surprised he knows these types of details.

As for your second comment, that's the thing, he wasn't even talking about my Response 1.5's. He said the R1.5's are the ones that use quality drivers (custom SEAS). He was referring to the updated 'D' series, that's where the change happened.

Also, I'm sure you were just joking, but for what it's worth, there's plenty of locals interested and will be coming by to take a look :)

Mr Peabody
02-03-2010, 06:29 PM
Ah, the ole better not wait someone is coming to look later routine :)

Personally, I'd recommend experimenting with power cords first. Not to go into my whole story, I brought home both power cords and an outlet gizmo thinking the cord wouldn't do anything and I'd probably keep the outlet gizmo. Actually, the opposite ended up being true. Only true though because the outlet gizmo, an early gen Transparent, didn't allow enough current through for my big daddy Krell. The power cords did some amazing things for my CD player and especially my phono stage. Later I picked up a Quintet because it had outlets with no current limit and the effect was more subtle but still a further improvement. I'm not happy with PS Audio right now, well, not that strongly, they gave me a RMA# with no problem but my Quintet has a couple outlets that went bad. How something like that happens is a mystery. I will be happy to get it back though because when I took it out the picture quality on my TV was noticeably not as good. With out it the dark sceen detail isn't as good and the color less vivid. I mean it's not huge but if it's your set you are used to watching you should notice.

koven
02-03-2010, 06:37 PM
Oh I know that routine, that wasn't my intention though, lol. What I meant was, whether you were serious or not, local pick-up has priority. And judging by the local interest so far, you shouldn't hold your breath for shipping :)

And thanks for the advice, I will look into some power cords when this is all said and done.

atomicAdam
02-03-2010, 07:04 PM
koven -

Well, perfect I guess isn't the word, more like, what will give my equipment the best possible starting point.

Besides, I'm not going to argue what perfect power is cause I'm no electrical engineer or even an electrician for that matter.

A good starting place would be price. From there, read reviews. Sorry to sound vague. One thing I could suggest, is if you are only going to spend money for one cable, plug it into your amp. At least, that has seemed to always make the biggest difference to me.

I've been reviewing the JRDG 102 S amp (~$2000) and with a Granite Audio #560 ($850) power cord into it and standard power cords into a cheapy ($30) surge protector, it made a greater difference than having the #560 plugged into the pre-amp or CD player or DAC with other things running cheaper power cords.

I'd almost want to say, for example only, if you have a grand, and are thinking, two power cords for $500, it might be better to get at least 1 fantastic one for a grand, and plug that into the amp, instead of 2 $500 ones into amp and pre-amp.

It seems like you worked wonders in getting a selection of speakers to audition, I would just start doing the same with power cords. But see if you can get ones that are already broken in for audition.

That would be my best, but obviously limited to my experiences, advice.

jrhymeammo
02-03-2010, 07:35 PM
I have heard many good things about the Madisound Revelator and have given thought to it as well when I get ready for an upgrade. From what I have heard they are some of the best drviers Scan Speak makes and when put together with a top notch crossover and cabinet they are a unstoppable force. I heard people compare them to speakers system in the close to 5 figure mark with good results and Madisound sells the 2 way kit for around 1500 and 2.5 kit for around 2000 dollars. Not bad if you consider price and the floore space the Revelator speakers take up.

Hey HG,
Are you talking about the Zaph Audio ZRT 2.5-Way offered by Madisound?
It looks very tempting since I've curious about the new(er) AirCirc tweeters.

koven
02-03-2010, 07:37 PM
adam --

thanks for the advice. unfortunately i wont be able to afford any super expensive power cords.. i was thinking something more in the ~$100 range, just like a step up from the generic cords. and maybe a ~$100 conditioner/surge protector too. any brands you may recommend in that case?

i see zu birth cables go for about ~$40 on ebay... also the bok for ~$100, any thoughts on zu?

jrhymeammo
02-03-2010, 07:56 PM
So what tweeters does the new D line use?
The Scanspeak Discovery series based tweeters?
Looks like D80 and up uses the D2904 based tweeters, but I'm not sure.

Something just doesn't add up about Fritz, and not sure what it is. But sounds like you found a pair you like.Enjoy.
Too many uncertainties..... better flip the LP.

02audionoob
02-03-2010, 09:07 PM
okay, now i see your point and i understand/partially agree. however, it is insignificant & irrelevant to the bigger picture here. it's just something that came up in discussion, his motive was not to sway me into keeping the carbon 7's.

and sure, proac could have made a decision based on their ears.. but we'll never know. however, the educated assumption would be that they did not.. they changed management and the new attitude at proac was profit, not sound. also, i dont see what's wrong with repeating facts on the internet. although damaging to proac, i'm sure there are people out there who would prefer to know.

yes, everyone makes a profit, i'm sure fritz will make money off me. but will it be as big a margain as a large manufacturer? i would bet all my money that in terms of %, it's not. fritz isn't even a "small manufacturer", it's ONE person building speakers to order. he has little to no overhead costs, he loves speakers and music, he loves his job. sure he makes a profit, but for fritz, it's sound and value that takes priority. and it's extremely evident in his work. i highly doubt that big manufacturers have the same attitude.


also, i just realized you own proac's (possibly the 'D' series?). at first, i was a bit confused about your stand in this matter, and no offense, but now i see why you're biased/defensive on this subject. so let's just end it here.

No...I don't have the D series. I have the TriTowers. I don't think you are entitled to call me biased/defensive on the issue. I just said what I judge to be true about one person's comments, regardless of subject matter. I believe it's unprofessional and I believe you're gullible. What you've said..and called "fact" is only what Fritz told you...a guy who is selling you speakers...a guy who besides building speakers sells them.

And by the way...what you'd bet on the profit margin doesn't say anything about reality. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you could at least provide a fact instead of "betting". Then there wouldn't be so much left open to doubt.

And lastly...I think your Audiogon ad is dishonest. Not funny. There's a recession on. There are people with real problems.

Mr Peabody
02-03-2010, 10:23 PM
Koven, I'd wait on power conditioner for your amp. You want one that does not limit current. Many entry level conditioners don't have the capacity to feed a large or high quality amp. You can find decent entry level power cords in the $100.00 to $200.00 range. I'd also buy either from a local or online retailer with a return policy. Ebay sellers, if you can call them that, are notorious for the occasional counterfit cable. I didn't realize you were buying all those speakers. You should make use of the return policies available. Usually cable companies give dealers a demo kit so they can loan them out to customers to try. I know my local dealer pretty well, they just through me the cord to try.

When I first tried aftermarket cables I was using a Krell amp and they may have had a decent cable already. When rotating the power in and out of my system the amp was more subtle than the CDP or phono stage which the improvement I would consider sizeable. Of course, I wasn't using a Granite either. So how many of those $1k babies you buying Adam?

harley .guy07
02-03-2010, 10:35 PM
Hey HG,
Are you talking about the Zaph Audio ZRT 2.5-Way offered by Madisound?
It looks very tempting since I've curious about the new(er) AirCirc tweeters.

Yes I am. The 2.5 Zaph audio design is a sealed chamber design that I for one am very interested in hearing for myself. The price is good for the amount of quality there and from what I have read from owners of these speakers is that they are comparable to some speakers close to the 5 figure mark for around 2000 bucks. Thats saying something and while I was not there to hear a comparison like this for myself and it is a bold claim but hell if these speakers can keep up with speakers in the 5 to 6 thousand dollar range then buying them and putting them together yourself would be well worth it and they could be something I would keep and listen to for years. One of them speakers to keep for a long time and enjoy knowing you got way more for the money than most.

koven
02-04-2010, 12:26 AM
So what tweeters does the new D line use?
The Scanspeak Discovery series based tweeters?
Looks like D80 and up uses the D2904 based tweeters, but I'm not sure.


see below, regarding your question, these are just two quotes from soundstage.com talking about the new proac d series


All previous Response-series speakers used silk-dome tweeters sourced from Scan-Speak and modified by ProAc. No more. The tweeter used currently, still a silk-dome unit, is sourced from D.S.T. of Denmark

But with the D100 and D80, ProAc began an affiliation with Volt, a pro company based in England. ProAc used a modified version of a Volt woofer in the D100 and D80



No...I don't have the D series. I have the TriTowers. I don't think you are entitled to call me biased/defensive on the issue. I just said what I judge to be true about one person's comments, regardless of subject matter. I believe it's unprofessional and I believe you're gullible. What you've said..and called "fact" is only what Fritz told you...a guy who is selling you speakers...a guy who besides building speakers sells them.

And by the way...what you'd bet on the profit margin doesn't say anything about reality. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you could at least provide a fact instead of "betting". Then there wouldn't be so much left open to doubt.

And lastly...I think your Audiogon ad is dishonest. Not funny. There's a recession on. There are people with real problems.

wow, sorry i struck a nerve. i didn't think you would take this so seriously. you picked a detail in my post that was insignificant & irrelevant, and made it into a huge deal. it had little to do with what i was talking about.

first of all, i'm not "entitled" to call you biased but you can call me gullible (and dishonest)? i dont get it.. i guess your opinion is worth more than mine

second, earlier in this thread, you said "I like your thinking....but that's coming from a guy who has ProAc towers and an Audio Research tube amp." to me that looks like, "good choice, but im biased"... your attitude towards me made a 180-degree turn after i made my comment. what happened? i thought we were going to be "proac buddies" :rolleyes5:

i dont think you're giving me enough credit. i've done my share of research. i look into everything fritz tells me, i dont hang off his every last word. contrary to your belief, when he says jump, I........ "Google" the what/when/where/how of jumping. i think you get my point. proac did ditch scan speak drivers in their new 'D' series, that's a fact. however, whether or not it's costing proac less money than the scanspeaks, only the people at proac know the answer.

sorry if you took it the wrong way but my comment's motive was NOT out of malice. i didn't even think much about it, this is an audioreview forum.. i just thought the more info, the better. i'm not some undercover Fritz salesman on a mission to put down all other brands, i'm just an average(probably below average in terms of $) "audiophile". i came here to share/document my experience and hopefully learn things on the way. i'm sure there's some people reading this and did not know Proac switched to Volt drivers in their new 'D' series. i've read it's more of a british sound and some PMC speakers also use Volt drivers, not as warm as scan speak but probably great nonetheless - warm is a preference afterall.

also, unless you've personally dealt with Fritz, you don't have the right to judge his professionalism. if anything, i'm the unprofessional one for paraphrasing him on the internet. i've met a lot of salesmen in this world, and most of them aren't the epitome of ethics, if you know what i mean. while fritz may not be perfect.. overall, i'd consider him a diamond in the rough.

as for my audiogon ad, you make it seem like i fabricated a sob story to sell the speakers. i said "i have financial issues and need to free up cash". in any case, i dont see how that's relevant to anything, you seem to be attacking me for the hell of it. all i have to say is, you know nothing about me, or my life (and there's no reason to share it here), all you've got are assumptions. you see a room full of speakers and you think i have a tree that grows money.

anyway, in retrospect, if i knew you were going to react this way (and for the sake of this thread), i wouldn't have even brought it up... i didnt come here to start arguments... maybe a moderator can "edit out" all this negative talk

koven
02-04-2010, 12:40 AM
Koven, I'd wait on power conditioner for your amp. You want one that does not limit current. Many entry level conditioners don't have the capacity to feed a large or high quality amp. You can find decent entry level power cords in the $100.00 to $200.00 range. I'd also buy either from a local or online retailer with a return policy. Ebay sellers, if you can call them that, are notorious for the occasional counterfit cable. I didn't realize you were buying all those speakers. You should make use of the return policies available. Usually cable companies give dealers a demo kit so they can loan them out to customers to try. I know my local dealer pretty well, they just through me the cord to try.

When I first tried aftermarket cables I was using a Krell amp and they may have had a decent cable already. When rotating the power in and out of my system the amp was more subtle than the CDP or phono stage which the improvement I would consider sizeable. Of course, I wasn't using a Granite either. So how many of those $1k babies you buying Adam?

definitely will do that, i know most places are more generous with in-home cable demos as opposed to taking some expensive speakers home.

any recommendations as far as brand? the zu cables on ebay are actually auctions from zu audio, so i was thinking about giving it a shot with their 60-day return policy. just want to know what else i should look into, there's so many choices.

02audionoob
02-04-2010, 06:06 AM
anyway, in retrospect, if i knew you were going to react this way (and for the sake of this thread), i wouldn't have even brought it up... i didnt come here to start arguments... maybe a moderator can "edit out" all this negative talk

I'm letting it go at that, even if the mods leave it in. Enjoy your speakers. They seem great. No hard feelings on my part. It would all seem less significant if said over a beer rather than in writing.:cool:

Mr Peabody
02-04-2010, 06:30 AM
I have aftermarket power cords from Transparent and MIT's Z series and both work well for me. I hear good things about Zu. All I currently have of theirs is a coaxial digital cable. www.amusicdirect.com carry PS Audio and offer a return policy. A large part of PS Audio is their power products and could be worth trying. Other than that if you find something good let me know.

audio amateur
02-04-2010, 06:41 AM
aa - it isn't that i've been just auditioning the PSAudio stuff, I've been listening to every power cord I could get my hands on or hear at a demo.

In the context of Koven's confusion, it was just giving him the gist. I don't doubt that you have auditionned power cords other than PS audio's...

Keeping on topic, I haven't done any A/B with aftermarket power cords and I probably won't for a while simply because they are out of my budget and also because any difference in sound will probably be far lesser than upgrading speakers. I once switched my Rat shack interconnects for a pair which retailed at 150$, and I couldn't hear any change. Could be my ears, could be the lack of resolution of my system, but it could also be that they actually didn't improve anything. If they did, I believe the difference was so small that any Placebo effect would be far greater. Personnally I have no doubt that a LOT of differences heard in the audiophile comunity are that created by Placebo.

ps: any news from the Trends Audio guy?

poppachubby
02-04-2010, 06:49 AM
In the context of Koven's confusion, it was just giving him the gist. I don't doubt that you have auditionned power cords other than PS audio's...

Keeping on topic, I haven't done any A/B with aftermarket power cords and I probably won't for a while simply because they are out of my budget and also because any difference in sound will probably be far lesser than upgrading speakers. I once switched my Rat shack interconnects for a pair which retailed at 150$, and I couldn't hear any change. Could be my ears, could be the lack of resolution of my system, but it could also be that they actually didn't improve anything. If they did, I believe the difference was so small that any Placebo effect would be far greater. Personnally I have no doubt that a LOT of differences heard in the audiophile comunity are that created by Placebo.

ps: any news from the Trends Audio guy?

Indeed. I think that the gear has to be of a certain ilk. Low end gear is just that, no matter what you attach to it.

You're right about placebo. I think the biggest problem is simply pride. No one who just spent $200 on a power cord wants to admit there's no audible or likely benefit.

I think if a person optimizes everything in their system, be it "mid-fi" or hi-fi, small changes become easier to detect. You can't expect to hear small differences from a power cord when it's sucking a heap of garbage from the wall, which the user did nothing to improve.

Anyhow, bottom line is, if you're happy with what you have, great!!

audio amateur
02-04-2010, 06:50 AM
And by the way...what you'd bet on the profit margin doesn't say anything about reality. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you could at least provide a fact instead of "betting". Then there wouldn't be so much left open to doubt.


I'm not sure what's the big problem is, but here is a fact: Scan Speak drivers in general (and those in the Carbon 7's more so), are expensive. Take into account they are mated to a quality crossover and are housed into what appears to be a gorgeous cabinet. Surely at 1.7K, they are a bargain! I'll bet you anything that he makes far less profit on what he sells than 99% of speaker manufacturers.

02audionoob
02-04-2010, 07:15 AM
I'm not sure what's the big problem is, but here is a fact: Scan Speak drivers in general (and those in the Carbon 7's more so), are expensive. Take into account they are mated to a quality crossover and are housed into what appears to be a gorgeous cabinet. Surely at 1.7K, they are a bargain! I'll bet you anything that he makes far less profit on what he sells than 99% of speaker manufacturers.

What's the point in "betting"? A one-man manufacturer/direct merchant has no middle man and super low overhead. I would "bet" he has a very nice profit margin. There is no problem, though. I already tried to drop it in my previous reply.

Feanor
02-04-2010, 07:16 AM
I'm not sure what's the big problem is, but here is a fact: Scan Speak drivers in general (and those in the Carbon 7's more so), are expensive. Take into account they are mated to a quality crossover and are housed into what appears to be a gorgeous cabinet. Surely at 1.7K, they are a bargain! I'll bet you anything that he makes far less profit on what he sells than 99% of speaker manufacturers.

Indeed, some ScanSpeak are very expensive, e.g. THIS (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8713) Beryllium-dome D3004/6640-00 "Illuminator" series tweeter.

Although a few are rather moderate, e.g. THIS (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8645) silk-domed D2606/9200 "Discovery" series tweeter.

Ajani
02-04-2010, 07:21 AM
What's the point in "betting"? A one-man manufacturer/direct merchant has no middle man and super low overhead. I would "bet" he has a very nice profit margin. There is no problem, though. I already tried to drop it in my previous reply.

That is exactly the point that most persons are ignoring... It's not necessarily that Mr Fritz makes less profit than other manufacturers, but that he sells direct online... Direct Sales cut out the cost of retailers (and their profit margins) from the equation....

audio amateur
02-04-2010, 07:22 AM
What's the point in "betting"? A one-man manufacturer/direct merchant has no middle man and super low overhead. I would "bet" he has a very nice profit margin.
I will also bet that he sells far less, hence the fact that if he does make a decent profit (no harm in that), he probably isn't filthy rich either.

There is no problem, though. I already tried to drop it in my previous reply.
Indeed, i read that after i wrote my reply.

audio amateur
02-04-2010, 07:25 AM
Indeed, some ScanSpeak are very expensive, e.g. THIS (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8713) Beryllium-dome D3004/6640-00 "Illuminator" series tweeter.


Jeez, what do they line those with, gold?

Feanor
02-04-2010, 10:45 AM
Jeez, what do they line those with, gold?
Beryllium!! :biggrin5: Which is evidently difficult and potentially toxic to work with.

koven
02-04-2010, 11:01 AM
I'm letting it go at that, even if the mods leave it in. Enjoy your speakers. They seem great. No hard feelings on my part. It would all seem less significant if said over a beer rather than in writing.:cool:

Agreed.

No hard feelings at all.. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/images/smilies/beerchug.gif

koven
02-04-2010, 11:05 AM
On a positive note, Fritz will be bringing me a floorstander with the new AirCirc Illuminator tweeter in ~two weeks.

Until then, I'll be enjoying the Carbon 7's and maybe look into some of the less expensive aftermarket power cords... I think I'll give Zu a shot first. Zu Audio has auctions on ebay for their cables and they usually end at about 20% of the actual MSRP cost, lol. 60-day return on top of that too.

audio amateur
02-04-2010, 11:14 AM
On a positive note, Fritz will be bringing me a floorstander with the new AirCirc Illuminator tweeter in ~two weeks.
Wow, that's very cool! So is he just swapping tweeters or does he also have to modify the crossover to do so? What about the Illuminator woofer?

koven
02-04-2010, 11:23 AM
Wow, that's very cool! So is he just swapping tweeters or does he also have to modify the crossover to do so? What about the Illuminator woofer?

It was pretty vague and just came up at the end of our conversation, I'll have to ask him for the details next time we speak.

I'm assuming he'll be modifying/tuning the crossover since it's a different driver... I'll also ask about the woofer.

Feanor
02-04-2010, 12:09 PM
Wow, that's very cool! So is he just swapping tweeters or does he also have to modify the crossover to do so? What about the Illuminator woofer?
It's the exception that one driver is a simple swap for another, (though it's a little more likely in the case of tweeters than woofers). In general, optimum performance means reworking the crossover network.

jrhymeammo
02-04-2010, 12:13 PM
see below, regarding your question, these are just two quotes from soundstage.com talking about the new proac d series

Thanks, I failed to see that post.



maybe a moderator can "edit out" all this negative talk

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel like this is one of the best threads we've had in years. I think it's refreshing and informative. :thumbsup:
Nothing is out of control here....yet.

JRA

koven
02-04-2010, 01:49 PM
Thanks, I failed to see that post.

I don't know about everyone else, but I feel like this is one of the best threads we've had in years. I think it's refreshing and informative. :thumbsup:
Nothing is out of control here....yet.

JRA

Thanks JRA, I'm glad to hear that and I hope others feel the same.

jrhymeammo
02-04-2010, 04:43 PM
Yes I am. The 2.5 Zaph audio design is a sealed chamber design that I for one am very interested in hearing for myself. The price is good for the amount of quality there and from what I have read from owners of these speakers is that they are comparable to some speakers close to the 5 figure mark for around 2000 bucks. Thats saying something and while I was not there to hear a comparison like this for myself and it is a bold claim but hell if these speakers can keep up with speakers in the 5 to 6 thousand dollar range then buying them and putting them together yourself would be well worth it and they could be something I would keep and listen to for years. One of them speakers to keep for a long time and enjoy knowing you got way more for the money than most.

I have no idea how they would sound in provided combination, but I predict they are exceptional speakers. I imagine with a little tweak to the crossovers, they will compete with speakers costing 3-4x the price.

Here is a list of small speaker companies I've been curious about outside of Tyler Acoustics and Fritz.

http://www.taylorspeakers.com/index.html
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/
http://www.selahaudio.com/
http://www.salksound.com/
http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/speakers.htm
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com.

JRA

koven
02-04-2010, 07:54 PM
I've heard a lot of great things about Salk SongTowers.. wish I could hear them some day.

atomicAdam
02-04-2010, 08:25 PM
So how many of those $1k babies you buying Adam?

None - They are on loan. You think I got that kind of cash? I wish.

vlastoc
02-05-2010, 01:39 AM
hi Koven, Frenchmon

I honestly have to say, I didn't audition the mention Spendors A6 in real, I only have read the very detail review at our local hifi forum (hifi-voice.com). I know that its predecessor S6 was also super...

Anyway , as you Koven write, you can't get it in your area.

If I should compare Cantons and the others...
I never cared much about the Dynaudios, ooh, know their quality, but I prefer more dynamic, live performance ...and of course, they are quite expensive, on the other hand, I think Dynaudios are much closer to so called high end..

I never heard Proac.

Cantons are vey live performance, suited to rock, metal, drums, jazz..I don't listen classical, orchestral music, so can't say. Some lower series and older series had a bit edgy highs, perhaps little boomy bass.
But without any shame, I could recommend Canton Vento 880 or 890DC. (Older Vento 809 is review here http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/605canton )

Reference series is more expensive.

My Ventos 807 are very musical, witch great timbre, clear mids and smooth highs.

Mr Peabody
02-05-2010, 06:21 AM
Vlastoc, which Dyn's did you hear and what was driving them. I know they don't appeal to everyone but their dynamics, "live like performance", is one of the strenghs I enjoyed about them. Most models do require some good amplification to get that out of them though.

frenchmon
02-05-2010, 08:08 AM
hi Koven, Frenchmon

I honestly have to say, I didn't audition the mention Spendors A6 in real, I only have read the very detail review at our local hifi forum (hifi-voice.com). I know that its predecessor S6 was also super...

Anyway , as you Koven write, you can't get it in your area.

If I should compare Cantons and the others...
I never cared much about the Dynaudios, ooh, know their quality, but I prefer more dynamic, live performance ...and of course, they are quite expensive, on the other hand, I think Dynaudios are much closer to so called high end..

I never heard Proac.

Cantons are vey live performance, suited to rock, metal, drums, jazz..I don't listen classical, orchestral music, so can't say. Some lower series and older series had a bit edgy highs, perhaps little boomy bass.
But without any shame, I could recommend Canton Vento 880 or 890DC. (Older Vento 809 is review here http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/605canton )

Reference series is more expensive.

My Ventos 807 are very musical, witch great timbre, clear mids and smooth highs.

Hi Vlastoc. I have a pair of Cantons 403's which I enjoy very much. And I have heard the Dynaudio's 140's, 110's Contours t2.5, and some of the higher end speakers from Dynaudio. Both speakers brands are great but are not that far apart in what they can do. While I cant say I've heard any other line other than the GLE line form Canton. Both CANTON and DYNAUDIO have a very good bottom and comparing the 140's and 403's the edge going to the 140. The 140's are a more nuetral speaker than the 403's but the 140's have a more subtle tweeter compared to the 403's which do have a more lively tweeter. I think the 403's are a very clear and transparent speaker. The 140's where a more forward speaker, but thats not to say the 403's are laid back and polite, becasue they are not at all, but the 140's seem more forward to me. The Cantons present a very good sound stage. They even recommend no toe in with the 403's. The craftsmanship that I see on the Vento and Reference series are just out standing...a very good looking speaker it is. Its just to bad that they are not a popular speaker here in the states.

I am in the market for new speakers and a little cash strapped at the moment with Christmas and all. Once I get a my reserves flowing I will see if I can get some Ventos with a thirty day trial in my home seeing we have no dealers here.

frenchmon

FSonicSmith
02-05-2010, 12:17 PM
Am I the first to mention after all the posts in this thread that your room is too small. I mean I realize that you have to make do with what you have but your B&W 805s never stood a chance in that room. Further, in such a small room you have far too many hard reflective serfaces of which that flat panel is certainly one. Look at extensive room treatments and consider towing your speakers outward rather than toed-in or straight firing. Stay away from silver ICs or speaker cable. Room treatment and system matching is what you need in a very big way.
I hope this does not come across as unduly harsh. I would also audition each candidate without any other speakers in the room where they can affect your dispersion. Do you intend to have all those speakers in your room when you settle upon the "winner"? Do you not realize that in such a small room the other speakers present more hard, reflective surfaces? Read a primer on acoustic principles in rooms and start from the big picture in rather than from the small picture (the speaker) outward.

audio amateur
02-05-2010, 12:59 PM
consider towing your speakers outward rather than toed-in or straight firing.
Are you sure? I have never ever seen speakers oriented outwards.

koven
02-05-2010, 02:23 PM
Am I the first to mention after all the posts in this thread that your room is too small. I mean I realize that you have to make do with what you have but your B&W 805s never stood a chance in that room. Further, in such a small room you have far too many hard reflective serfaces of which that flat panel is certainly one. Look at extensive room treatments and consider towing your speakers outward rather than toed-in or straight firing. Stay away from silver ICs or speaker cable. Room treatment and system matching is what you need in a very big way.
I hope this does not come across as unduly harsh. I would also audition each candidate without any other speakers in the room where they can affect your dispersion. Do you intend to have all those speakers in your room when you settle upon the "winner"? Do you not realize that in such a small room the other speakers present more hard, reflective surfaces? Read a primer on acoustic principles in rooms and start from the big picture in rather than from the small picture (the speaker) outward.


I appreciate the comment and don't worry, I did not take it as harsh although you make some assumptions and your tone is a bit condescending. I always welcome criticism as it helps me learn.

1. The room is small - I know, but it's my only option so I need to make the best out of it. The TV may not be ideal, but that's there to stay. I've already realized I have many hard surfaces in my room, which is why I put up some absorbers - it's the bare minimum, but it's a start. My next step will be corner/bass traps and maybe filling up the front walls w/ diffusers.

2. I only placed the speakers there to take a picture. When I actually listen, it's one speaker at a time, or sometimes two - for A/B purposes. The rest get moved into the room behind me.

3. My interconnects and speaker cables are all copper.

4. I've already picked a winner, it's the Fritz Carbon 7's.

koven
02-22-2010, 04:15 PM
fritz brought over the carbon 7's w/ illuminator tweeter this weekend... havent spent much time with them so far, but i cant say it blew me away compared to the regular carbon 7's

to be honest, i dont think the illuminator tweeter blends w/ the 18w8545 as well as the 9500 tweeter ... dont get me wrong though, it is an AMAZING tweeter by itself, but it also seems to stand out/out-do the woofer

for those wondering, it is the D3004/6620-01

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/images/d3004_662001.jpg

anyway.. more on this later, and some pics

jrhymeammo
02-22-2010, 06:13 PM
I was minutes away from purchasing a pair of these.
It took me tremendus amount of will power to keep myself from punching in the 16 digit code...

http://www.robertsacoustics.com/Roberts%20Acoustics%20Speakers/robertsacoustics.html

perhaps you might want to give them a try. They should still have pairs of Demo units.

audio amateur
02-23-2010, 06:37 AM
I was minutes away from purchasing a pair of these.
It took me tremendus amount of will power to keep myself from punching in the 16 digit code...

http://www.robertsacoustics.com/Roberts%20Acoustics%20Speakers/robertsacoustics.html

perhaps you might want to give them a try. They should still have pairs of Demo units.
So you tend to buy speakers after reading an attractive description of them?

frenchmon
02-24-2010, 12:27 PM
So you tend to buy speakers after reading an attractive description of them?

Others have done it, and are quite satisfied.


frenchmon

jrhymeammo
02-24-2010, 06:00 PM
So you tend to buy speakers after reading an attractive description of them?

I buy lots of gear based on curiousity. Auditioning gear is not a bad idea and I can see why it benefits people, but I find it to be fairly irrelevant and time and resources not well spent.
I find speakers and carftridges fairly easy to determine whether I would like them or not, but other components such as CD Players, Preamp, and Amps are mostly useless to audition.

I was going to purchase these speakers based on the components used.
Also, I wasn't about to drive or fly 1500 miles just hear how they sound....
Of course this is my opinion and majority of people here would strongly disagree.

Ajani
02-24-2010, 07:08 PM
I buy lots of gear based on curiousity. Auditioning gear is not a bad idea and I can see why it benefits people, but I find it to be fairly irrelevant and time and resources not well spent.
I find speakers and carftridges fairly easy to determine whether I would like them or not, but other components such as CD Players, Preamp, and Amps are mostly useless to audition.

I was going to purchase these speakers based on the components used.
Also, I wasn't about to drive or fly 1500 miles just hear how they sound....
Of course this is my opinion and majority of people here would strongly disagree.

Actually I think many persons agree with you, in the sense that the best way to really 'audition' gear is in your own system... It's just that most persons are afraid to buy and return/resell...

frenchmon
02-25-2010, 12:57 AM
I buy lots of gear based on curiousity. Auditioning gear is not a bad idea and I can see why it benefits people, but I find it to be fairly irrelevant and time and resources not well spent.
I find speakers and carftridges fairly easy to determine whether I would like them or not, but other components such as CD Players, Preamp, and Amps are mostly useless to audition.

I was going to purchase these speakers based on the components used.
Also, I wasn't about to drive or fly 1500 miles just hear how they sound....
Of course this is my opinion and majority of people here would strongly disagree.

I would agree with you 100% especially when you live in a place that has hardly no stores.


frenchmon

koven
02-25-2010, 11:23 AM
quick shot of the carbon 7's w/ illuminator tweeter

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6694/fritzilluminator.jpg

Ajani
02-25-2010, 11:45 AM
quick shot of the carbon 7's w/ illuminator tweeter


Any thoughts on whether you're going to keep the illuminator Carbons?

audio amateur
02-25-2010, 02:02 PM
I have to say, i don't find them attractive at all. The tweeters, that is..

frenchmon
02-25-2010, 04:24 PM
quick shot of the carbon 7's w/ illuminator tweeter

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6694/fritzilluminator.jpg


I think shes a beauty

Ajani
02-25-2010, 04:38 PM
I have to say, i don't find them attractive at all. The tweeters, that is..

The issue for me is that the Tweeter draws way too much attention to itself, especially considering the subtle yet elegant cabinetry of the Fritz speaker...

I also suspect, that the sound will do the same thing... I don't like mismatches of materials in speakers...

jrhymeammo
02-25-2010, 06:13 PM
Yes, it does indeed look aweful, but how does it sound compare to the previous Carbon7?
Did you get a Demo pair that are already broken in?
If not, I imagine giving 200+ hours will really make them come to life.

Does Fritz offer speakers in Gloss black or White?

Green thumbie for trying out different gear!!!

jrhymeammo
02-25-2010, 06:17 PM
Actually I think many persons agree with you, in the sense that the best way to really 'audition' gear is in your own system... It's just that most persons are afraid to buy and return/resell...

That's why I shop on Agon. I get to try out something different without losing more than 5% of my initial investment.

koven
02-25-2010, 06:37 PM
The issue for me is that the Tweeter draws way too much attention to itself, especially considering the subtle yet elegant cabinetry of the Fritz speaker...

I also suspect, that the sound will do the same thing... I don't like mismatches of materials in speakers...

that is pretty much how im feeling right now, i dont really like the looks because it "sticks out" compared to the cabinet/woofer,

as for sound, i'm getting the feeling that the tweeter outclass the woofer. compared to the 9500 tweeter, the illuminator sounds more lively/energetic, definitely has more "zing" to it, highs sparkle more but not fatiguing at all, very natural/smooth. it sounds really excellent actually, but i dont feel it matches as well w/ the woofer, the sound is not as seamless compared to the carbon 7's. dont get me wrong though, the illuminator is amazing and realistically, the difference vs the carbon 7's isn't as "bad" as i'm making it seem like, but \i really wonder what it'd sound like matched w/ an illuminator woofer. it'd probably sound better, and definitely look a lot better.

i'm still unsure which one i'm keeping though.. it could very well be the illuminators, but i need more time


Yes, it does indeed look aweful, but how does it sound compare to the previous Carbon7?
Did you get a Demo pair that are already broken in?
If not, I imagine giving 200+ hours will really make them come to life.

Does Fritz offer speakers in Gloss black or White?

Green thumbie for trying out different gear!!!

the woofers have a lot hours on them but the tweeters are new

i'm not sure if he does gloss finishes, i haven't seen any but i'd imagine it can be done for extra

frenchmon
02-26-2010, 02:30 PM
that is pretty much how im feeling right now, i dont really like the looks because it "sticks out" compared to the cabinet/woofer,


You guys really think it looks that bad???? I've seen speakers that look really awful like these.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3772/blwebpaartineo3297771.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/blwebpaartineo3297771.jpg/)


Now the sound may a different story but imo those things are butt ugly for a speaker.

jrhymeammo
02-26-2010, 05:21 PM
You guys really think it looks that bad???? I've seen speakers that look really awful like these.

PIC REMOVED

Now the sound may a different story but imo those things are butt ugly for a speaker.

Hey Frenchy,

Did I miss your sarcasm?
I have to strongly disagree with you on this one.
Those are one of the best looking pair of speakers I've seen in while.

frenchmon
02-26-2010, 06:21 PM
Hey Frenchy,

Did I miss your sarcasm?
I have to strongly disagree with you on this one.
Those are one of the best looking pair of speakers I've seen in while.

Sorry but I like speakers to look more like traditional speakers. I dont know what they are trying to represent, but sorta looks like two spinning tops sitting on its own platform.

Hears another by MBL of America.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8550/101extreme7062113.png (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/101extreme7062113.png/)


Now they all have very good craftsmanship and I'm sure they sound excellent and cost much coin, but as far as looks for a speaker, imo they suck and look like a high priced lamp. If I won them or was given these, I'd be selling to the highest bidder. I dont care how good they sounded, they would never disappear unless I sold them.

frenchmon

frenchmon
02-26-2010, 06:33 PM
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5914/xtreme017908138.png (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/xtreme017908138.png/)


Naw...I'd be selling.

Mr Peabody
02-26-2010, 06:59 PM
I wouldn't care what a speaker looked like if it sounded good enough. It's like women at closing time, you won't see them in the dark and hopefully the music is intoxicating enough your mind won't worry about the looks :)

koven
02-27-2010, 12:16 PM
okay.. so ive been spending lots of time with the illuminators and i'm really amazed at and in love with this tweeter

i still stick to what i originally said, that this combo is not as seamless as the carbon 7's, but regardless, the sound from the illuminator is very very good.. im quite impressed

it is a very energetic tweeter, but smooth too, it does not even get close to harsh/bright... it has a lot of sparkle without being fatiguing, that's rare in my experience... i just wish the woofer was better matched


anyway, i did some "tweaking" yesterday and found that the sound seems better with a slight toe-in, i also moved my TV all the way back against the wall.. seem to have given the speakers more room to breathe.. sound is fuller overall, bass has more authority, sibilance non-existent

audio amateur
02-27-2010, 12:26 PM
Now the sound may a different story but imo those things are butt ugly for a speaker.
In the beginning, I never liked the look of unconventional speakers. I've since grown to like a lot of these unconventional designs...

jrhymeammo
02-27-2010, 03:14 PM
anyway, i did some "tweaking" yesterday and found that the sound seems better with a slight toe-in, i also moved my TV all the way back against the wall.. seem to have given the speakers more room to breathe.. sound is fuller overall, bass has more authority, sibilance non-existent
:thumbsup: I've taken out my TV from my living room. It's always nice to have a TV, but from my experience it degrades sound imagining.

Let us know how they sound after a full break-in.

JRA

koven
03-02-2010, 09:09 PM
I was minutes away from purchasing a pair of these.
It took me tremendus amount of will power to keep myself from punching in the 16 digit code...

http://www.robertsacoustics.com/Roberts%20Acoustics%20Speakers/robertsacoustics.html

perhaps you might want to give them a try. They should still have pairs of Demo units.

here's your chance!

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1272743408&/Roberts-Acoustics-Rapide

Feanor
03-03-2010, 09:22 AM
here's your chance!

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1272743408&/Roberts-Acoustics-Rapide
Wow! That's some nice speaker for the price -- at least on paper. Even as the ad suggests, it would be difficult to buy the raw components for that money.

koven
03-03-2010, 01:44 PM
Wow! That's some nice speaker for the price -- at least on paper. Even as the ad suggests, it would be difficult to buy the raw components for that money.

Yeah, I'm curious to hear them.. looks very impressive on paper. I emailed the guy about a demo but no response yet.

jrhymeammo
03-03-2010, 05:42 PM
here's your chance!

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1272743408&/Roberts-Acoustics-Rapide

Thanks Koven,

That's exactly what I was going to buy. A pair of B stock in Gray.
I'm more interested in buy a tube pre with phono stage or phono preamp.

Aircirc tweets and Accuton drivers. Accuton are usually reserved for exotic speakers such as Kharma, Marten Design, etc.

koven
03-18-2010, 05:32 PM
carbon 7's in ribbon mahogany... *drool

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/340/carbon7ribbonmahogany02.jpg


these look amazing as well.. :)

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9766/carbon178rosewalnut600.jpg

koven
03-18-2010, 05:52 PM
some new pieces to my system..

joseph audio rm25si.. seas millennium drivers w/ infinite slope crossover.. these got a perfect 5/5 from 16 people on audioreview, that doesn't happen too often..curiosity got the best of me so i picked them up, they sound better than the rm7si's i previously had, but i think i still prefer the carbon 7's by a bit, im probably going to end up selling them, i think my room may be too small for them
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/5089/rm25si.jpg

tube audio design tad-60.. using el34's right now but have some kt88's on the way
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7900/tad60.jpg
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/4571/tad602.jpg

peachtree decco2, i think they just released this a few month ago, same DAC/pre as the nova, just less power (40wpc vs nova's 80wpc)
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3680/decco2.jpg

frenchmon
03-18-2010, 06:45 PM
I assume you are using the Decco as a DAC only?

koven
03-18-2010, 08:53 PM
i'm using the pre too.. i'm using the tad-60 as a power amp only, volume is on 100%

harley .guy07
03-18-2010, 09:02 PM
I wouldn't care what a speaker looked like if it sounded good enough. It's like women at closing time, you won't see them in the dark and hopefully the music is intoxicating enough your mind won't worry about the looks :)

I would agree. I would give up looks for sound quality any day. when I close my eyes and hear the music I don't really care what the speakers look like if they make me feel like I am right there at the performance. I guess I am a different kind of audiophile. Performance over looks any day. If you like them go with them and to h%^& with what they look like as long as they don't completely distract from the rest of your system.

Ajani
03-18-2010, 09:16 PM
I would agree. I would give up looks for sound quality any day. when I close my eyes and hear the music I don't really care what the speakers look like if they make me feel like I am right there at the performance. I guess I am a different kind of audiophile. Performance over looks any day. If you like them go with them and to h%^& with what they look like as long as they don't completely distract from the rest of your system.

Nothing wrong with either point of view: it is up the individual to decide whether looks plays a part... Many persons have tastefully decorated living rooms and would not be willing to spoil the appearance with a truly hideous piece of gear... Some have a man-cave dedicated solely to HiFi, so looks are irrelevant to them... there is no right or wrong... just personal choice....

koven
03-19-2010, 06:17 AM
there is no right or wrong... just personal choice....

agreed, it's just a matter of preference!

Mr Peabody
03-19-2010, 02:45 PM
Good point, location, location, location, it would make a difference if it's the "man cave" vs the main living room. Early in the marriage before I had the "man cave" I had picked out a pair of Electro Voice speakers but the wife didn't quite agree that road carpet fit our decor. So I moved on and ended up with a pair of Infinity Kappa 7's. I didn't regret the switch but totally different sound. In the long run I may have been better off.

koven
03-28-2010, 11:18 PM
picked up a pair of Meadowlark Kestrel 2's

anyone heard meadowlark speakers before? i am extremely impressed, especially for the price i got them at

Mr Peabody
03-29-2010, 06:54 PM
Never got to listen to any. How do they compare to the Fritz?

koven
06-23-2010, 07:11 PM
i'm back!

here's what my room looks like currently:
peachtree decco 2 -> tube audio design tad-60 -> sonus faber grand piano home
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9780/73900451.jpg

as for the past few months.. i shall give a short summary/update later

jrhymeammo
06-23-2010, 07:16 PM
You are certainly not afraid to try different gear. My kinda guy.

When I auditioned SF Grand Piano with Rotel separates at a local dealer 5 years ago, I thought it sounded very colored or veiled. I've always thought it was due to the listening room, but never had ways to find out the truth.
I look forward to reading your review and how they sound with your gear combo.

Have Fun,
JRA

Mr Peabody
06-23-2010, 07:17 PM
Welcome back. What happen to the Fritz? Now Sonus Faber?

smwick
11-13-2010, 03:53 PM
Update please. This has been a very enjoyable thread for the most part. Did you ever hear the tower version of the Carbon 7?

Mr Peabody
11-13-2010, 07:16 PM
Yeah, what is going on? A shop in town just picked up Sonus Faber and I'm anxious to hear them. I'm sort of looking for speakers, I still like the Dyn's but playing with the Klipsch have me looking for something more efficient than the Dyn's while still having the refinement. I want a more effortless sound. But I'm in no hurry.