Magnepan 1.6 Review (Part #2)

[manlystanley]

I had several weeks to really play with my magnepan 1.6's. I've found out multiple things, which are:

-- I've learned that I have a lot to learn. I don't think the Manepan's are 'novice speakers'. They are fairly transparent and take some work to sound there best.

-- On the plus side, the company itself is really great to work with. I've called them up multiple times and they have been a big help. Further, they told me that most of there staff is at the CES, so to call back when they return--then I'll get even more help.

-- I have flip/flopped multiple times with these speakers. I've thought:
- Wow what a great sound!
- to Uggg.. It's OK.
- to With a little bit of work, it will be great.

-- I think that some of my problem is that I lack a real sense of determining how to 'diagnose' what I don't like about them. In other words, I listen to certain CD's and I think: Wow!! Musical nirvana. then I listen to other CD's and I think: something wrong here.... Not sure what???

-- My best times to evaluate things is when I teleworking. Then I listen to music 12 hours straight. My favorite set of CDs on these 1.6 speakers is several Celtic Hymn CDs. The 1.6's sound warm, full, vibrant and really increadable. and the bass--wow--shakes the house.

-- Then other CD's, I'm fairly disappointed with the speakers. So, I'm trying to figure out what is going on and at the same time to evaluate the 1.6's and figure out how to integrate them into my system.

-- What I've currently thinking, is:

-- It is so cool with these speakers to hear nuances of music that I've never heard before. I mean with CDs that I've listened to over and over for months, I'm discovering whole threads of musical content that I never noticed before. This is really neat.

-- Then, with certain CDs the bass shakes house..... A couple days ago, the speakers were not turned up too loud and my wife came down stairs complaining that they could not even talk up stairs because of the house rumbling.

-- The imaging is the best that I've ever heard. But yet, I had extremely high expectations of these and so am a little disappointed. I think my expectations was to high.

-- I think that my LP's tend to sound better then my CDs. So, I'm thinking that maybe my cheap 'top of the line' monoprice video cables are a problem. Or maybe my dual use DVD /CD player?

-- I only have one of he speaker stands (with points) put on now. I have not done a real evaluation, but first listen is: Wow! what a difference in bass. But, still I need a 12 hour session with it to do a real good evaluation..

-- I was really amazed that I heard, for the first time, 'granny-ness' in music. When I set the speakers exactly with what dawnrazor told me (via the web site), on one CD I could hear grannyness. Very distracting. But, then when putting the speakers back at 3 feet from the wall, that disappeared. So I guess that the 'optimum' position brought out all the music and exposed all my system's weaknesses.

-- The last big problem that I've got with the speakers is that many CD's sound 'thin' compared to my old B&W 684's (which are now sold). But then other CD's sound great and I cannot think of a single record that does not sound great. This is why I'm thinking that I've got a cabling problem or DVD/CD problem??

-- In general, I've gone from the:
-- Pinicale of excitement with buying these 1.6's
-- to buyer remorse
-- to now: "These are great speakers, I just need to set them and my system up correctly".

-- Appreciate all your help. This process has been gobs of fun. Learned a lot and really enjoyed playing/tweaking with things. Also, I love having really different speakers. I mean, I tell people that I've got mylar strip speakers that are almost 6 feet tall that vibrate to make sound-----and they think I'm nuts. I like that....

-- Last point, I live on the east coast and am now in Seattle. Then I fly home for a week and then fly out to Oklahoma city for two weeks. So, I'll not have much time to try any of your suggestions. But, please know that when I have a chance I'll make sure to try them.

Best Regards,
Stan

[blackraven]

Stan, what your hearing with the different CD's is how revealing the speakers are and how unforgiving they are to poorly recorded music. They will also bring out any weaknesses in your system as will most high end speakers. This is one of the things I dislike about the speakers and that I always tell people about before I recommend them. Its a trade off for getting that great sound. Its also one of the reasons that I added tubes to my system. The tubes really helped smoothing out poor recordings and made them more pleasant to listen too, but they are still noticeably bad. Now I'm very picky about what music I buy for my main system. I buy a lot of XRCD's, Blu-Spec CD's, SHCD's, remastered and Hybrid SACD's. Most of the poor sounding material is played on my Monitor Audio speakers.

One thing that I would do is get rid of the Monoprice IC's and go with some higher end IC's that have a more detailed and warmer signature. Another option is to add a subwoofer to the mix. This may help some with bass issue's. Non ported subs match the best with Maggies but most quality subs will do. The Martin Logan Dynamo's are good but I don't believe the new one's have speaker level inputs which I prefer for 2ch music. You should see if you can do a home audition of a tube preamp to see if it improves things. If it does, then consider a tube buffer which is a cheaper way to get that tube sound.

I hope that this helps some. Sorry to hear your having such a hard time with them.

[manlystanley]

I hope that this helps some. Sorry to hear your having such a hard time with them.

Hello BR,
You and everyone has been a huge help. I'm enjoying playing with this stuff. I have no regret about buying these speakers. At the price I got them for, I'll be able to sell them for--particularly since I have custom made stands.

But, I to think that the cables is a really big thing. I also think I'll look into the tube amp, but this will need to really wait. I have busted my budget long ago.....

Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

I'm glad you're having fun, Stan. That's what it's all about, right? Or is the music? Whatever.

When you talk about DR's speaker positioning recommendation, are you referring to the Cardas formula? Personally I can't to set up my speakers strictly accordig to that formula in my space, but the major improvement is going to be in the bass and I'm not even sure whether it really applies to Maggies' di-polar design.

The 1.6's are virtually flat down to 45 Hz which might be deeper than the B&W's. I don't know how loud you're playing, but it could be that if the house is rumbling, you're getting bass node vibration effects.

In the end the 1.6's are only speakers hence they aren't perfect -- sort of like human beings.

I'm very skeptical that different cables or interconnects are going to made a significant difference to the overall sound. Likewise about the RFI filters and marble counter top. However obsessive people like DR or Mr P will disagree.

[manlystanley]

I'm very skeptical that different cables or interconnects are going to made a significant difference to the overall sound. Likewise about the RFI filters and marble counter top. However obsessive people like DR or Mr P will disagree.


Obsessive????? Ahaaaaa, now were talking. My family says I am really obsessive and so really think I'm going overboard. So, I'll fit into that group real well!

Best Regards,
Stan

[blackraven]

I was a cable skeptic but the Blue Jean Cables offered more detail and better treble compared to my Monster m950i cables and slight improvement over my m1000i's which have a warmer sound. The improvement isn't dramatic but its noticeable.

I think that a $160 tube buffer is worth the investment. Here's a used one-

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstube&1267554397&/Yaqin-Tube-Buffer-w/-extra-ge-

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?accsmisc&1267201503 this is a great buy, I just may buy it myself to use with my MMG's.

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/sold-grant-fidelity-b-283-tube-buffer-120-shipped-sold-465283/

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/ele/1547743248.html

[Feanor]

Obsessive????? Ahaaaaa, now were talking. My family says I am really obsessive and so really think I'm going overboard. So, I'll fit into that group real well!

Best Regards,
Stan
Hey, cool. Obsession is a choice, right?

Here's one more thing -- far more important than cables, etc. -- dump the Adcom and Emotiva and get yourself some seriously high-grade amplification. Far more than is usually the case in the moderate price range, Maggies will exploit high-end amplification and other components.

Yes, I know all about budget contraints. :sad:

[blackraven]

Here's a review on the Yaqin Tube buffer which is the same as the grant Fidelity buffer.

http://www.epinions.com/content_312424107652

http://www.epinions.com/Yaqin_Tube_Buffer/display_~reviews

[Dawnrazor]

Hey, cool. Obsession is a choice, right?

Here's one more thing -- far more important than cables, etc. -- dump the Adcom and Emotiva and get yourself some seriously high-grade amplification. Far more than is usually the case in the moderate price range, Maggies will exploit high-end amplification and other components.

Yes, I know all about budget contraints. :sad:

Feanor is dead on here.

I drove my mmgs with a $4k Pass Labs X-150. It wasn't crazy to pair that amp with my $600 speaker. The speakers were not outclassed especially when I modded them. The thing is that maggies sound way better than their pricepoint. I recently sold the pass and now have 2 Halo A21s for active biamping.

You need a real amp that can handle maggies ability to suck power. As you move up the line even really good amps have trouble driving maggies and that means clipping....

Mags are kind of like the free boat a friend gives you.

[blackraven]

Changing amps will not help the fact that some CD's sound great and some sound bad. The fact is that Maggies will let you know when the recorded music is poor quality. Thats why many people don't like them for rock. Upgrading to a better amp will help the overall sound quality though but not fix the problem and in fact may make it worse as higher end equipment is more revealing. I was reminded of this when I took my Cambridge Audio 840c CDP over to Frank Van Alstines studio and compared it to all three of his DAC's on his preamps and amps using the simply amazing Salk Veracity HTR3 $8000pr speakers. (Frank tested the 840c on his O.scope and said it was the best testing cd player to come across his desk) When the 840c played on his system you could hear a slight distortion on pristine Vocals. While his DAC's were totally free of any audible distortion. Then I took the DAC's and preamps home for an in home audition and the effect was not as dramatic becasue the Salk speakers were more revealing and detailed than my 1.6's.

[Dawnrazor]

Hey Blackraven,

I don't think we are saying that better amps will take care of a bad recording.

I think what we are saying was probably said bast by you:

"I can tell you that when I was using my 226wpc Adcom AVR to drive the Maggies the sound was good. When I went to my Parasound Halo A21, the sound was transformed and really came alive"

That is how I took Feanors comment.

THough I can tell you that some cds that were unlistenable before better amps and front end are now very nice.

[manlystanley]

I've done a lot of reading on the net with people who own both Magnepan speakers and Emotiva the XPA series of amps. All that I've read has been good. If it turns out that I've got to ditch all my current equipment to use the 1.6's, I'll ditch the 1.6's. I can't afford to buy 1000's of dollars of equipment. My budget per *year* for *all* equipment is $1000 and I find myself blowing past that. Just imagine if I upgraded that to $10,000.....my wife and I would have serious differences.

I'm going to continue to work with these 1.6's for another month and then if they are not right for me I'll look for a plan B. But, I just cannot spend that type of money on my hobby.

But, I think that I can get them to work for me. This process has been much more difficult then I imagined it would be. Also, still, it's been fun and I have no regrets. Thanks for all your help.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Here's a review on the Yaqin Tube buffer which is the same as the grant Fidelity buffer.

http://www.epinions.com/content_312424107652

http://www.epinions.com/Yaqin_Tube_Buffer/display_~reviews


This is a real possibility, I can afford this. I'll keep this in my back pocket....Thanks for the pointer..

Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

I've done a lot of reading on the net with people who own both Magnepan speakers and Emotiva the XPA series of amps. All that I've read has been good. If it turns out that I've got to ditch all my current equipment to use the 1.6's, I'll ditch the 1.6's. I can't afford to buy 1000's of dollars of equipment. My budget per *year* for *all* equipment is $1000 and I find myself blowing past that. Just imagine if I upgraded that to $10,000.....my wife and I would have serious differences.
...

Don't be silly. :hand: Maggies can exploit much better equipment but they're still going to sound to deliver better than anything else even driven by Panasonic receiver.

However I still suggest not pissing way your money on the likes of expensive cables or tube buffers that will make small improvements at best; instead save you bucks for what will make a big improvement such as a better amp.

[E-Stat]

What I've currently thinking, is:

-- It is so cool with these speakers to hear nuances of music that I've never heard before. I mean with CDs that I've listened to over and over for months, I'm discovering whole threads of musical content that I never noticed before. This is really neat.
That is what more resolving systems do.


-- Then, with certain CDs the bass shakes house..... A couple days ago, the speakers were not turned up too loud and my wife came down stairs complaining that they could not even talk up stairs because of the house rumbling.
I find their bass quite sufficient. You can always add subs later.


-- I was really amazed that I heard, for the first time, 'granny-ness' in music... But, then when putting the speakers back at 3 feet from the wall, that disappeared.
Never heard of that before! Old lady sounding? Proper placement, however, is key to optimum imaging. Leave them where that factor has disappeared.


The last big problem that I've got with the speakers is ...
Last problem? All I've heard is it took you a while to find the optimum position and you are hearing deeper into your recordings than you ever did before. I must have missed the problems.


... many CD's sound 'thin' compared to my old B&W 684's (which are now sold). But then other CD's sound great and I cannot think of a single record that does not sound great.
Yes, there is quite a variance in recording quality. Better systems will illuminate the contrast between the good, the bad and the ugly.



This is why I'm thinking that I've got a cabling problem or DVD/CD problem??
If you are indeed using $3 interconnects, I would urge you to buy some decent Belden cable. Untrapped RFI can add an unpleasant edge to the sound. Blue Jeans offers a range of them at modest prices. While I use tube components in both my music systems, I don't find value in adding an otherwise superfluous buffer stage, tube or not.

Give yourself some more time with them.

rw

[blackraven]

Stan your equipment is fine, give it some time. I agree with every thing that E-stat says. However, i do believe that tubes go well with Maggies. They will not completely solve the problem with poor Cd's sounding bad, however tubes would help improve the sound IMO.

The bottom line is will you be ok with the fact that the Maggies are more resovling and are going to make poorly recorded music sound poor. Mggies don't color the music so much so what is recorded is what you get. I think that is why tubes help with their warmth and added distortion if you will.

[bluetrain]

I wholeheartedly agree with the folks who recommend not to make unnecessary purchases like tube buffers or cables at this point, even though eventually you've gotta get good interconnects. Your speakers are good, save for a nice tubed preamp, and then you'll see what happens.

For now, if you can spend up to $200, try to get Cambridge Audio CD4SE (not 4 or 6). This is a really tremendous player, I still have it as a backup. Even though my current player costs ten times more than the Cambridge, it still holds its own, and I really enjoy it. The midrange is smooth and rich, and overall presentation is lush. I think that's what you need now, until your amplification upgrade.

[JoeE SP9]

manleystanley;
When I got my first pair of Maggy's (MG-1's) in 1976 the awful sound of many recordings became immediately apparent. When you have revealing speakers it's something you learn to live with. Everyone that owns Maggy's, ESL's or Ribbons gets used to it. OTOH, good recordings sound truly marvelous. As another poster mentioned, the revealing quality may be the reason many "rock" fans don't like Maggy's. A lot of rock recordings demonstrate just how bad some recordings are.

You might note the two main ESL supporters (me and E-Stat) use tubes or recommend them to drive to drive our speakers. When I had the MG-1's 60WPC of tube power made me quite happy with them.

Before I started thinking of replacing amplifiers I would get rid of the monoprice cables. I have heard nothing good about monoprice cables from anyone. The Blue Jeans line seems to be much better received and reviewed for not much more money.

Yes, learning the in's and out's of speaker placement is a different process with panels. However, it's worth the effort to get them positioned properly.

[blackraven]

I'm not so sure I understand why every one is down on a tube buffer. While I have no direct experience with one, most (not all) of the user reviews I have read are positive. Stan already said he can't afford to make major changes in his gear. $100 for a used T.Buffer is worth the risk and its cheap. It may help some with warming things up, improving bass, sound stage and transparency- and I used the word may!

The first epinions review I posted gave a good review on the Yaqin buffer with magnepans and good equipment.

At worst he's out shipping cost's because he should be able to turn around and sell it for what he paid for it.

[Dawnrazor]

I'm not so sure I understand why every one is down on a tube buffer. While I have no direct experience with one, most (not all) of the user reviews I have read are positive. Stan already said he can't afford to make major changes in his gear. $100 for a used T.Buffer is worth the risk and its cheap. It may help some with warming things up, improving bass, sound stage and transparency- and I used the word may!

The first epinions review I posted gave a good review on the Yaqin buffer with magnepans and good equipment.

At worst he's out shipping cost's because he should be able to turn around and sell it for what he paid for it.

I for one think it might be an option, though I personally would treat it as a last resort. When I had one of those musical Fidelity X-10 tube buffer, it was good, but as my system improved I realized that it was really killing the resolution.

Manly would be better off IMHO focusing on the basics like isolating components from his granite counter top and each other than adding some "color" to the sound. Speaker placement has already helped a bit and he has some other inexpensive things he can try before he starts spending more money.

I remember an old adage that Laura Dearborn used in her book "Good Sound" that basically said that before buying any new equipment, you should make sure what you have already is set up properly. I dont think Manly is there yet.

[manlystanley]

....... Granny-ness........

Never heard of that before! Old lady sounding? Proper placement, however, is key to optimum imaging. Leave them where that factor has disappeared.



Give yourself some more time with them.

rw


..... Granny-ness: Math major you know, can't spell. That should be Grainy-ness.

Give myself more time: Agreed. I'm on the road now, but am looking forward to jumping back in on this consuming 'hobby'

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Stan your equipment is fine, give it some time. I agree with every thing that E-stat says. However, i do believe that tubes go well with Maggies. They will not completely solve the problem with poor Cd's sounding bad, however tubes would help improve the sound IMO.

The bottom line is will you be ok with the fact that the Maggies are more resovling and are going to make poorly recorded music sound poor. Mggies don't color the music so much so what is recorded is what you get. I think that is why tubes help with their warmth and added distortion if you will.

Hello BR,
Great advice. I need several more teleworking days to really figure out what I'm hearing. Also, when that test CD comes I'll start to check out that. I am enjoying hearing the new musical threads that I never heard before. Like:

--On one tract, the player is walking back and forth as he plays. I never heard that before. Before, it just sounded stationary. Now, it's clear as a bell.

-- Then on another track there is a secondary guitar player that I never heard before. Now, it's clear as a bell.

-- Etc.

But, on the other hand, like you said, the problems with my equipment and recordings is now coming through. In the past I had read about the advantages & problems with transparency, but never really understood it...... Now I do understand.

I got tired of my B&W 684's. Great speakers, but I could tell that I missing much of the music. I'm in a transition phase and will just need to work this out.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Hello Everyone,
I wanted to reply to everyone, but got to get downstairs to use the gym, before I go back out to Microsoft. I wanted to say: "love all your insight!!!" I'll chomp on it a bit, play around at home and then get back to you all about what I've found. It's great to have a bunch of guys who are further along then I am. Also, so appreciate you sharing your insights.

On the plus side I had gave an hour long briefing to a large group of engineers at the conference--and it was that was very well received. Glad that's over.

Best Regards,
Stan

[E-Stat]

I'm not so sure I understand why every one is down on a tube buffer.
Buffered outputs don't need buffering.


It may help some with warming things up, improving bass, sound stage and transparency- and I used the word may!
Exactly how can one improve sound stage accuracy and transparency by adding another stage ? My long term experience suggests the opposite. That's why I do not use a preamp with line level sources. Every electronic stage imparts its own sonic characteristics. You can't fix one by adding another.

rw

[E-Stat]

That should be Grainy-ness.
I considered that, but this comment through me off the trail:

"...on one CD I could hear grannyness. Very distracting. But, then when putting the speakers back at 3 feet from the wall, that disappeared.

Graininess is a function of cumulative electronic grunge. With dipoles, placement can tune the lower midrange and bass response along with optimizing imaging - but really cannot cure upstream electronic sins.

With respect to your other comment about a "thinness", that is where experimenting with distance-to-wall can help. The room becomes the speaker "enclosure" and affects the warmth region due to its unique set of modes based on the dimensions. Your listening position affects the perceived bass response, too. One tends to get nulls in the middle of the room. I spent hours with my stats finding the most neutral result via both speaker and listening couch placement.

rw

[Feanor]

I'm not so sure I understand why every one is down on a tube buffer. While I have no direct experience with one, most (not all) of the user reviews I have read are positive. Stan already said he can't afford to make major changes in his gear. $100 for a used T.Buffer is worth the risk and its cheap. It may help some with warming things up, improving bass, sound stage and transparency- and I used the word may!

The first epinions review I posted gave a good review on the Yaqin buffer with magnepans and good equipment.

At worst he's out shipping cost's because he should be able to turn around and sell it for what he paid for it.
The technical purpose of a buffer is to better match the output impedance of the source (which is ideally low) with input impedance of the downstream target (which is ideally high). Tube buffers can service this purpose where it is required, but tube buffers can also be used to inject some of the elusive "tube sound", (warmth, body, depth, yada-yada).

I recently tried a semi-DIY buffer using 6922 tubes; I rolled the cheap Asian tubes for a pair of Amperex orange PQ's. Installed downstream of my DAC, the only effect was a slight loss of transparency and added grain.

Of course, I already have tubes in my preamp, so maybe that's why I heard no benefit. My dark suspicion remains that tubes work -- at least in simple instance like a tube buffer -- by adding euphonic low-order harmonic distortion.