Tweaking Magnapan 1.6 Tweeters

[manlystanley]

When I setup my new Magnepan 1.6's I loved the sound, but then all of a sudden the bass seemed to disappear. The sound became very harsh with little bass and I was wondering what was going on? After trying hours of different positioning, it turned out that I had forgotten that I had taken the 1.2 ohm tweeter attenuation resisters out. I've put these back in and the sound is once again much warmer.

But, the sound is a little dull. From what I've read, it seems that taming the brightness of the magnepans can be handled with two basic approaches, which are:

1.) Use room conditioning.
2.) Use some sort of crossover changes (or tweeter attenuation).

I'm not excited about doing a lot of room conditioning as I finished the basement myself and I really enjoy it looking the way I like it. Then there is is the added expense of buying sound absorbing materials, etc.

So, I was wondering what everyone else has done about the Magnepans? Is your room just naturally conducive to these speakers or have you: changed crossovers, put in tweeter attenuation, etc?

Here is a link of someone who put in a simple resister network: http://www.edgrochowski.com/article1.htm. He says that it keeps the magnepans' sounding 'exciting' yet lowers the tweeters. What do you all think of this??

Finally, my daughter listens to a lot of Opera and I'm concerned that the 2db lowering of the tweeter (via the 1.2 ohm resisters) will make the lower bass voices sound bloated and distorted. This is because the crossovers are set at 600hz and the human voice can go between 300 Hz to 3400 Hz. So with the 2 DB tweeter attenuation I'd think there would be a big surge in the bass' volume singing at just the lower notes??


Thanks for your help.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Feanor]

When I setup my new Magnepan 1.6's I loved the sound, but then all of a sudden the bass seemed to disappear. The sound became very harsh with little bass and I was wondering what was going on? After trying hours of different positioning, it turned out that I had forgotten that I had taken the 1.2 ohm tweeter attenuation resisters out. I've put these back in and the sound is once again much warmer.

But, the sound is a little dull. From what I've read, it seems that taming the brightness of the magnepans can be handled with two basic approaches, which are:

1.) Use room conditioning.
2.) Use some sort of crossover changes (or tweeter attenuation).

I'm not excited about doing a lot of room conditioning as I finished the basement myself and I really enjoy it looking the way I like it. Then there is is the added expense of buying sound absorbing materials, etc.

So, I was wondering what everyone else has done about the Magnepans? Is your room just naturally conducive to these speakers or have you: changed crossovers, put in tweeter attenuation, etc?

Here is a link of someone who put in a simple resister network: http://www.edgrochowski.com/article1.htm. He says that it keeps the magnepans' sounding 'exciting' yet lowers the tweeters. What do you all think of this??

Finally, my daughter listens to a lot of Opera and I'm concerned that the 2db lowering of the tweeter (via the 1.2 ohm resisters) will make the lower bass voices sound bloated and distorted. This is because the crossovers are set at 600hz and the human voice can go between 300 Hz to 3400 Hz. So with the 2 DB tweeter attenuation I'd think there would be a big surge in the bass' volume singing at just the lower notes??


Thanks for your help.

Best Regards,
Stan
Humm ... my 2 cents worth.

As previously mentioned, I don't use any tweeter attenuation and furthmore point the my 1.6's directly at my listening position, hence I get the full tweeter effect -- works for me, but my room has plenty of sound absorbing furniture and carpets.

If I were you, I'd try a minimal room treatment approach, e.g. place moderate sound absorption about 2 feet directly behind the Maggies; this can be a panel no wider than the Maggies themselves. At the same time, I suggest toeing in the the the speakers to point directly at your listening position. Bear in mind that the 1.6's are pretty directional and if you toe them in this way you will get less 1st reflection from the side walls.

The network referred to doesn't recommend itself to me. Given both tweeter and woofer have a resistor ahead of them and the 1.6's network is second order, the effect is a boost in the fairly narrow crossover region, 600 Hz; (the author admits as much). I don't see that this would a solution usefull for people in generall.

[manlystanley]

If I were you, I'd try a minimal room treatment approach, e.g. place moderate sound absorption about 2 feet directly behind the Maggies; this can be a panel no wider than the Maggies themselves. At the same time, I suggest toeing in the the the speakers to point directly at your listening position. Bear in mind that the 1.6's are pretty directional and if you toe them in this way you will get less 1st reflection from the side walls.


Thanks for the feedback. So, what type of sound absorption would you recommend? Is there some good looking stuff that would add to the room's decor?

Thanks,
Stan

[JoeE SP9]

As a long time owner of various planar speakers I've heard many people call them dull or rolled off. After measuring various systems I've found that planars (Maggy's) are not dull or rolled off. What I have found is that most box speakers have too much treble. Many conventional tweeters sound peaky and harsh to my ears.

OTOH you can change the value of the tweeter resistor.

[blackraven]

You can try different interconnects that have a warmer signature. I'm sure people here can recommend some. I went the tube route to get the sound I liked. A tube buffer may give you the sound that you are looking for. http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123565 A warmer CD player like the Marantz SA8001/8003 will tame them as well. I auditioned both of those players and they warmed up the sound and produced more bass but at the expense of some detail, transparency and sound stage compared to my 840c and my VA DAC. But we are taking about an $800 CD player vs $1600 840c and $1500 DAC.

And don't forget, Maggies are not forgiving of bright or poorly recorded music. (this is my main beef with these speakers) I have CD's that I just can't stand to listen too on the maggies and can only play them on my Monitor Audio's.

[manlystanley]

BR and Joe,
Great comments, thanks. I'm about to have armed rebellion in my house about my stereo purchases, so I need to drop under the radar for a while. I put in a 1.2 ohm "tweeter attenuation" resister and that helps a great deal in warming the sound and bringing out the bass.

But a question: Will that distort the male voice that goes across the 600 Hz crossovers?

Thanks,
Stan

[blackraven]

Stan, I used the resistor in my MMG's and it did not seem to affect anything but the extreme high frequency. You can try different resistors if you find the high end rolled off. I think your best bet will be a tube buffer. You can try it between your amp and preamp or your CD player and preamp. They are cheap and you could probably resell it if you don't like it. Most people find that the buffers help. In fact, I'm thinking of getting one for my MMG's which are in my basement.

[manlystanley]

Stan, I used the resistor in my MMG's and it did not seem to affect anything but the extreme high frequency. You can try different resistors if you find the high end rolled off. I think your best bet will be a tube buffer. You can try it between your amp and preamp or your CD player and preamp. They are cheap and you could probably resell it if you don't like it. Most people find that the buffers help. In fact, I'm thinking of getting one for my MMG's which are in my basement.


BR,
For the 1.6, a 1.2 ohm resister had a huge effect. There was a large toning down of the tweeter and it really brought out the bass. The effect was so pronounced that I was wondering::

-- What would happen to the male voice? My fear is that a bass would be singling in an opera and when crossing the 600hZ crossover you would really hear 2-3db drops....

-- Then I read in other sites that the "tweeter attenuation" resister made the maggies 'dull'? I need to do some listening tests to see what I think. But, on your MMGs it just had a effect on the supper high frequencies??

I guess that I need to try it out and see what happens.....

Best Regards,
Stan

[Dawnrazor]

Manly,

You don't say how far out from the walls your speakers are.

Mags need at LEAST 3ft and 5ft or so is optimum. Make sure you have them well into the room.

Assuming you do, the next thing you could look into putting them in the Cardas position for dipoles as this will maximize the bass.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

That should help a lot, and probably be all you need to do.

If you need more, then try adding some RF chokes in the tweeter attenuator position. Mags are radio antennas and sometimes they can feed back into your amp. Off the top of my head, I think the J Henry 5502 are the ones to get at Mouser.com.

YOu can also try some wires that work better with mags. Magwire based designs seem to work well and thin gauge too, like the Mapleshades or DIY.

What amp are you using?

[Feanor]

Manly,
...

If you need more, then try adding some RF chokes in the tweeter attenuator position. Mags are radio antennas and sometimes they can feed back into your amp. Off the top of my head, I think the J Henry 5502 are the ones to get at Mouser.com.

....
Hi, DR. Good to see you at AR Forums.

I knew it was the real you when I saw you recommendation for shunt inductors to control RF. :)

[manlystanley]

Manly,

You don't say how far out from the walls your speakers are.

Mags need at LEAST 3ft and 5ft or so is optimum. Make sure you have them well into the room.

Assuming you do, the next thing you could look into putting them in the Cardas position for dipoles as this will maximize the bass.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

That should help a lot, and probably be all you need to do.

If you need more, then try adding some RF chokes in the tweeter attenuator position. Mags are radio antennas and sometimes they can feed back into your amp. Off the top of my head, I think the J Henry 5502 are the ones to get at Mouser.com.

YOu can also try some wires that work better with mags. Magwire based designs seem to work well and thin gauge too, like the Mapleshades or DIY.

What amp are you using?

Hello DR,
To answer your questions:
- They are a little over 3 ft from front wall
- I've got a Emotiva XPA-2 power amp.
- I'll try the web site (it looks really cool).
- Also, I'll check out the RF chokes.

Thanks so much!!

Best Regards,
Stan

[Dawnrazor]

Hi, DR. Good to see you at AR Forums.

I knew it was the real you when I saw you recommendation for shunt inductors to control RF. :)

Hey Feanor, Good to see you too. I knew it was you when I saw the 250 Classical cds!

But hey the choke tweek did wonders. It was strange because I never thought I HAD issues with RF. Hey, Nelson Pass has experience with everything, especially Maggies...I would think his amps would be immune. But the chokes and RC networks really helped. Though I never thought there was any brightness, the chokes really sweetened things up. It was weird that one could get MORE treble but have it be sweeter.

The last thing I need is ANOTHER audio Forum to hang out at, but AA was not working today, and I suppose I had to get my fix. But it is nice to know that there is a place to go when I get tired of AA. 7,700 post and it still hasnt happened. But who knows.

d

[manlystanley]

Manly,

That should help a lot, and probably be all you need to do.

If you need more, then try adding some RF chokes in the tweeter attenuator position. Mags are radio antennas and sometimes they can feed back into your amp. Off the top of my head, I think the J Henry 5502 are the ones to get at Mouser.com.


Hello,
I checked the Mouser.com site and I could not find a manufacture named "J Henry". But I did find one named "J W Miller". Is the J W Miller 5502 the one you were talking about??


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/JW-Miller/5502-RC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMueR%252blcXtRMwbG7NgPoIaPKGFbxjQGaTP w%3d

Thanks,
Stan

[Dawnrazor]

Hello,
I checked the Mouser.com site and I could not find a manufacture named "J Henry". But I did find one named "J W Miller". Is the J W Miller 5502 the one you were talking about??


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/JW-Miller/5502-RC/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMueR%252blcXtRMwbG7NgPoIaPKGFbxjQGaTP w%3d

Thanks,
Stan

Hey Stan,

Those are the ones. Looks like the memory is not what it once was...

[manlystanley]

Hey Stan,

Those are the ones. Looks like the memory is not what it once was...

I wish my memory was good once.....Then I could say I lost it.

But, as a question, I have the 1.2 ohms tweeter attenuators soldered in. I'm thinking about getting some terminal blocks so that I could just quickly add or subtract "speaker line conditioners". What do you think about that? Do I need audiophile terminal blocks? Is there such a thing?

Best Regards,
Stan

[Dawnrazor]

I wish my memory was good once.....Then I could say I lost it.

But, as a question, I have the 1.2 ohms tweeter attenuators soldered in. I'm thinking about getting some terminal blocks so that I could just quickly add or subtract "speaker line conditioners". What do you think about that? Do I need audiophile terminal blocks? Is there such a thing?

Best Regards,
Stan
Hey Stan,

I am not 100% sure I understand what you are saying.

Did you solder the resistor in the stock "binding posts"?? Maybe a pict to help old Dawnrazor understand?

FWIW, I ditched the magnepan connecting hardware years ago, but that is an exercise that I can understand not wanting to do.

[manlystanley]

Hello DR,
I'll get you that picture, but let me describe what I've got:

--The two speakers are in the front of the room.
--All electronics are in the back of the room (23 feet away).
-- I ran speaker wire (monoprice 12 gauge) in the ceiling, before the dry wall went in.
--Both Magnepan's are biwired near the XPA-2 power amp (in the back of the room)

-- I cut one tweeter wire in the back of the room (for both speakers) and soldered in a 1.2 ohm resister that came with the speakers. This is in the tweeter circuit.

-- Before I put this tweeter attenuation in: very, very limited bass.
--After the 1.2 ohm resister went in: Lower bass sounded really good!
-- Also, high frequency sounded great!
--But music sounded hollow. Tried swapping in my old B&W 684's and found that on both 1.6's speakers mid bass was very very limited. Not sure what frequency it was. (I found this via comparing the two speaker sounds).


I tried that site that you sent to me, and I arranged the speakers exactly according to it. This was about 4 1/2 feet from front and side walls. Result was: better sound: But mid bass was missing.

Not sure what is going on??

I'll keep checking things and give you any more insight that I find--and get you the pictures.

[manlystanley]

Hello DR,
I've got a lot of stuff going on at home now, it will be a while till I can send you some pictures. Sorry--5 kids keep you busy.

Best Regards,
Stan

[Dawnrazor]

Hello DR,
I'll get you that picture, but let me describe what I've got:

--The two speakers are in the front of the room.
--All electronics are in the back of the room (23 feet away).
-- I ran speaker wire (monoprice 12 gauge) in the ceiling, before the dry wall went in.
--Both Magnepan's are biwired near the XPA-2 power amp (in the back of the room)

-- I cut one tweeter wire in the back of the room (for both speakers) and soldered in a 1.2 ohm resister that came with the speakers. This is in the tweeter circuit.

-- Before I put this tweeter attenuation in: very, very limited bass.
--After the 1.2 ohm resister went in: Lower bass sounded really good!
-- Also, high frequency sounded great!
--But music sounded hollow. Tried swapping in my old B&W 684's and found that on both 1.6's speakers mid bass was very very limited. Not sure what frequency it was. (I found this via comparing the two speaker sounds).


I tried that site that you sent to me, and I arranged the speakers exactly according to it. This was about 4 1/2 feet from front and side walls. Result was: better sound: But mid bass was missing.

Not sure what is going on??

I'll keep checking things and give you any more insight that I find--and get you the pictures.

Thanks for the explanation. Are your ceilings 7ft tall and the room 16ft wide??

I probably dont really need a pict now as long as you followed the manual it sounds like things are OK connection wise. Just to confirm there is nothing connected to the top inputs, but the lower 2 have the connections?

It will be interesting to see what the XLO disk phase test tell you.

5 kids and you are worried about your memory??;)

[manlystanley]

Thanks for the explanation. Are your ceilings 7ft tall and the room 16ft wide??

I probably dont really need a pict now as long as you followed the manual it sounds like things are OK connection wise. Just to confirm there is nothing connected to the top inputs, but the lower 2 have the connections?

It will be interesting to see what the XLO disk phase test tell you.

5 kids and you are worried about your memory??;)

Hello DR,
Again, thanks for your help!!

-- The ceilings are 93 inches tall ( 7" 7') and the room is 17 feet wide.

-- The speakers do not sound bad now. It's just that they sound hollow and I know from everything I've read, they should sound much better. It was a shock to me when I did the A/B test with my B&W 684's last night. I was thinking that all of the bass of the 1.6's was weak, but it turned out that the lower bass sounded good. It was just the middle bass that was missing.

-- I was thinking last night and I came up with several possibilities for the problem:

Option A.)

-- The 1.2 ohm resisters I put in really allowed the lower bass (up to 600 Hz) to come out. But then it weakened everything else about 600 Hz. (e.g. where the crossovers were).

-- Then I have wood paneled cabinets in back of the room that brings out the higher frequencies. THis is why the higher frequencies sound good but the lower bass does not.


Option B.)

-- The speaker wires must have a good 30 ft run (20 ft room and then the cables go up and then down).

-- Maybe this is causing the bass to get hit??


Option C.)

--- The Feedback to the Amp that you were talking about.


***********

But, yes, I'll be interested when the XLO disk comes! The disk was shipped last night so should be here next week. I'm going to be giving a presentation at a meeting with Microsoft next week, and so will not be able to check anything out for about a week or so. I'll be excited to find out what is going on.

One last question: If I get the inductor that you mentioned, should I get two or four of those? I have two channels, but then four wires coming from my amp. So, I'm not sure where to insert these?

Thanks again for your help.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

If it helps, here is some pictures of my movie listening room (with my old B&W 684's that are now sold).


http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=6263&cat=500&ppuser=276367

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=6265&cat=500&ppuser=276367

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=6266&cat=500&ppuser=276367

As you can see:

-- Speakers are in front of the room.

-- Electronics are in the back, with wood cabinets in back as well.

-- Speaker wires go from the front of the room, through the ceiling, down to the electronics in the back of the room.

-- I used 12 gauge mono price speaker wires.

-- Walls have banana plug receptors in the front and back.



Thanks,
Stan

[blackraven]

Stan, have you tried pushing the speakers out about 2' from the side walls? This will increase the bass. I used this trick with my MMG's to squeeze every bit of bass out of them.

[Dawnrazor]

If it helps, here is some pictures of my movie listening room (with my old B&W 684's that are now sold).


http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=6263&cat=500&ppuser=276367

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=6265&cat=500&ppuser=276367

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=6266&cat=500&ppuser=276367

As you can see:

-- Speakers are in front of the room.

-- Electronics are in the back, with wood cabinets in back as well.

-- Speaker wires go from the front of the room, through the ceiling, down to the electronics in the back of the room.

-- I used 12 gauge mono price speaker wires.

-- Walls have banana plug receptors in the front and back.



Thanks,
Stan

Yikes. I think there is another issue in the setup besides just positioning and tweeter attenuation. THose picts show components on top of each other and all of them on what appears to be granite. This is a bad recipe for brightness. The components pretty much all have vibrations from their power supplies and moving parts and the granite rings and probably reflects the vibration back to the components. Also the amp appears to have something on top of it and well that cant be good for heat dissipation.

Anyhow, here is an easy fix. You can find little wooden boxes at a hobby store. I found some round ones say 3-4" in diameter. They usually come with lids. Remove the lids as they are to big for our needs, fill with repti-sand from a pet store, and top with a smaller circle of wood or something like a tennis can lid. The key is to set your components only on the sand and make sure the component legs dont touch the side of "box", and that whatever you set on top of the sand, like the tennis can lid doesnt touch the sides either.

Get the kids to help if you want, and you can paint the boxes if you want. Basically you are separating the components from each other and the granite. It bet this will help you a lot in taming the highs, and even if it doesnt, it will make your components last longer because they will have better ventilation.

I am sure there are other ways, but this is cheap and easy.

Here is a link. The ones I found at Michaels where thicker than the ones in this link, but I am showing you the CONCEPT not necessarily the specific boxes to use.

http://www.bagnboxman.co.uk/acatalog/info_RWB.html

Also, the rf chokes go in series with the tweeters, so you just need 2, though I use them also on the bass panels and if you are biwiring you could get 4. Put on one each of the positive legs of each driver. You can just solder them on the tips of your existing wires and use their tips to make the connection to the speaker.