Geoff's spinning vinyl again!

[Geoffcin]

Life has brought me full circle, at least audio wise.

Way back in October of last year I purchased a modest TT, the Marantz 6170, specifically for the vintage Shure V15 type III cartridge that was mounted to it. Well my luck Ebay hasn't been good lately and this was no exception. The cart, the reason I bought the darn TT in the first place, was NFG. In addition my plan to swap the cart into my trusty but old AR-XA TT wasn't going to fly according to my tech, who said the AR needed a bunch of work to bring it up to snuff.

What to do? Well I had the Marantz, but I would need to get another cart, or I could get another TT. Not thinking the Marantz worthy I pursued getting another TT, coming up short on a couple of deals. One was for a used Music Hall 5.1 with a MC cart, another for a vintage, but really nice Thorens TT also with a Goldring cart. Both of these TT were within driving distance as I was never going to buy a used TT again without first making sure it all worked. Frustrated with coming up short on these auctions I finally decided that getting a decent cart for the Marantz was the way to go. Enter Adam, who at that precise moment in time wanted to upgrade the cart on his TT to a MC cart, and had no need for his lightly used Shure M97xE cart. So Adam whisked the cart off to me and now after having my tech mount the cart with the perfection that only a master of the arcane science of vinylphilia can do.
So as I write this I am being blissfulyl serenaded by the purely analog sounds of vinyl grooves. And man I an grooving to it!!! :3:

[02audionoob]

Ahhh...you've come over to the dark side. Now, may your DAC sit around collecting dust as much as mine.

[poppachubby]

Time to pick up some tasty , new vinyl. Congrats!

[JohnMichael]

Welcome to the vinyl side! Glad you could join us. Glad you have a tech you can rely on for all the geometry that a properly mounted cartridge requires. Enjoy!

[Geoffcin]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I'm back spinning vinyl again and enjoying it thoroughly! So far I've only been though a few albums, but I'm shocked on how WELL they were recorded. Every one more dynamic than their CD counterpart? Adam seemed to feel the M97xE was a little dark on his rig, but in my system it's darn near perfect, smooth and extended. Right now I'm listening to an old copy of Jethro Tull's "Greatest Hits" and the flute on "Thick as a Brick" sounds like flute floating right there in space. There's some surface noise though, clicks and pops, but on the whole very enjoyable. Can't wait to hear some quality clean vinyl!

[JohnMichael]

I hear bobsticks is thinking about getting into vinyl. Maybe you can encourage him.:yesnod:

[Geoffcin]

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_pic.php?pic_id=7265&full=true&sid=0db2f855d6323961a4ef1bffbba354bb

[02audionoob]

"Clicks and pops" sounds like static. Is it cold and dry at your place?

[jrhymeammo]

I hear bobsticks is thinking about getting into vinyl. Maybe you can encourage him.:yesnod:

Good luck knocking on that door.
Bernd and I decided it would be right to send him some LP.
As far as we know, they are just collecting dust. Butg it was hilarious though.:ihih:

JRA

[jrhymeammo]

What a great way to start the new year!!!! We hope you'll enjoy what analog has to offer.

I'm glad that Shure cart is working out for you. I, too, thought the M97xE was bit on a dark side, but it does alot of stuff just right (especially for the price).

I'm sure there are tweaks you can experiement with, but be sure to enjoy your music.

Welcome back.
JRA

[hifitommy]

here are online places to hunt:

http://www.recordsbymail.com/

http://www.soundstagedirect.com/

or you could just come to LA where the streets are lined with vinyl.

;^)

[hifitommy]

http://www.jazzloft.com is another source.

another thing, the shure v15III can probably be rescued by a JICO stylus.

[Geoffcin]

http://www.jazzloft.com is another source.

another thing, the shure v15III can probably be rescued by a JICO stylus.

That's exactly what I thought, but my tech said that the reason I wasn't getting any signal from the right channel was that the circuit was open, ie the cart was broken in a way that fixing it was not possible.

[hifitommy]

a call to soundsmith may answer the Q.

[atomicAdam]

Awesome that the cart is working out for u. Glad it is getting love instead of collecting dust.

[Geoffcin]

Awesome that the cart is working out for u. Glad it is getting love instead of collecting dust.

Thanks, and yeah the cart sounds great! Just like I remembered my old Shure V15 used to.

[poppachubby]

Hey Geoff. 02audionoob kindly sent me his old M97xe (100 hrs). I'll have it aligned in the next couple of days. It has some stiff competition in the form of an ever improving Ortofon OMB-10.

[Geoffcin]

Hey Geoff. 02audionoob kindly sent me his old M97xe (100 hrs). I'll have it aligned in the next couple of days. It has some stiff competition in the form of an ever improving Ortofon OMB-10.

I'm happy with the sound. Remember I'm going for a "classic" rig with my vinyl setup. For me to approach the CD player I'd have to spend way too much.

[poppachubby]

I'm happy with the sound. Remember I'm going for a "classic" rig with my vinyl setup. For me to approach the CD player I'd have to spend way too much.

With one of my tables being inputted into my soundcard, I can take on a CD player quite well. Of course, it's not true analog. However, with amazing dynamic range on some of the older LP's and then processed into 24/96, who cares?!? It sounds mint!!

[Geoffcin]

With one of my tables being inputted into my soundcard, I can take on a CD player quite well. Of course, it's not true analog. However, with amazing dynamic range on some of the older LP's and then processed into 24/96, who cares?!? It sounds mint!!


I'm with you on that Poppa. I've just got a mint copy of "Elton John's Greatest hits" and it sounds fantastic on vinyl! I didn't just put together the vinyl rig just for nostalgia, I really wanted to hear records again. There's something about sitting through a whole side of an album that makes you appreciate music a bit more.

Oh, I use a little trick that I used to do back in the old days; I toss a pillow over the top of the TT dust cover to damp any feedback. Gives you at least 10dB of overhead! Really makes a difference if you like to listen a little little louder.

[poppachubby]

Mine comes right off while playing. Do you use a weight or clamp at all Geoff? I had an entry level clamp, it was fun. However, I made myself a couple of weights and wow!! It really does make quite a difference. I posted a couple of pics in a thread...http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=32775

A fine tweak that doesn't cost too much. TTweights.com has some nice stuff. If you have a belt drive don't go too heavy. I have read that 300g on a direct drive is ideal.

[Geoffcin]

Mine comes right off while playing. Do you use a weight or clamp at all Geoff? I had an entry level clamp, it was fun. However, I made myself a couple of weights and wow!! It really does make quite a difference. I posted a couple of pics in a thread...http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=32775

A fine tweak that doesn't cost too much. TTweights.com has some nice stuff. If you have a belt drive don't go too heavy. I have read that 300g on a direct drive is ideal.

If I took mine off I would have to listen under 80dB or I would get some feedback. With the dustcover on and a pillow over the top I never worry about feedback.

Weights are cool, but really they work only to stabilize and flatten warped records. How could they affect the sound any other way?

[02audionoob]

Most warps are on the outer areas of the record, so that's really not the idea of a weight. They could flatten a cupped record from one side, but obviously not both. The idea is to control vibration...not all that different a concept from what you're doing with that pillow.

[Geoffcin]

Most warps are on the outer areas of the record, so that's really not the idea of a weight. They could flatten a cupped record from one side, but obviously not both. The idea is to control vibration...not all that different a concept from what you're doing with that pillow.

Certainly a heavier platter would have more mass and more resistance to vibration, but I think my platter weights like 3lbs, would a few more ounces make a difference?

In any case I'm pretty sure that most of the problem comes from the tonearm-headshell-cartridge assembly. I can induce feedback in it even with out it playing, if the volume is set high.

[02audionoob]

Not vibration of the turntable...vibration of the vinyl.

[poppachubby]

Makes a huge difference Geoff. By stabalizing the vinyl it allows the stylus to track better, and thus reproduce better. It's one tweak that's actually audible, which makes it really rewarding. As I said, the cost is a pittance really...

[02audionoob]

It's amazing Geoff's system can experience so much vibration, don't you think, Chubbs?

[hifitommy]

i am not sure which tt youre using geoff. but one of the things i wnat to try is the ttweights periphery ring. that would add lots of effective inertia to the formula in addition to help flatten the record of warps.

i have various weight/clamps-sota reflex, maplenoll clamp, planamax lightweight clamp, and an orsonic reflex clamp (small and not so heavy). the reflex clamps help with warps to a degree but the periphery clamp has many advantages.

i only wish i had one at this time.

http://www.ttweights.com/rings.html

[poppachubby]

Perhaps you should think about relocating your table Geoff. With a bit of isolation tweaking, mine sits in between the speakers and at high volumes, won't feedback. Got any pics?

[jrhymeammo]

A fine tweak that doesn't cost too much. TTweights.com has some nice stuff. If you have a belt drive don't go too heavy. I have read that 300g on a direct drive is ideal.

Hey Poppa,

Where did you read that?
Are you talking about suspended and/or belt drive design, instead of DD?
If so, I can understand that.

For DDs, platter is coupled directly to the motor spindle, so DD TTs are less prone to speed deviation caused by added weight. If you have a link to that, I would appreciate it. I would like to know what he means by "Ideal". But really, it's all about trusting your ears.

JRA

[poppachubby]

Ideal is my word, and my assessment. I was reading from a DIY page and his main thought is that a weight should be not too heavy or light. It should also be versatile for every type of table. Have a read and see what you think. I have been quite pleased with my 320g weight that I made.

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html

[02audionoob]

Added weight will not cause speed deviation on a belt-drive turntable until you start to stall it. It will potentially be slower to get up to speed, but once it's there it runs at the same speed it always does - dependent on power frequency. The difference between Pro-Ject's acrylic platter and their glass platter is more than double the amount of weight we're discussing here.

[poppachubby]

Added weight will not cause speed deviation on a belt-drive turntable until you start to stall it. It will potentially be slower to get up to speed, but once it's there it runs at the same speed it always does - dependent on power frequency. The difference between Pro-Ject's acrylic platter and their glass platter is more than double the amount of weight we're discussing here.

Perhaps, I wonder if the same could be said for my humble Pioneer.

[jrhymeammo]

Ideal is my word, and my assessment. I was reading from a DIY page and his main thought is that a weight should be not too heavy or light. It should also be versatile for every type of table. Have a read and see what you think. I have been quite pleased with my 320g weight that I made.

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html

Thanks Poppa, I'll read up on it.

[jrhymeammo]

Added weight will not cause speed deviation on a belt-drive turntable until you start to stall it. It will potentially be slower to get up to speed, but once it's there it runs at the same speed it always does - dependent on power frequency. The difference between Pro-Ject's acrylic platter and their glass platter is more than double the amount of weight we're discussing here.

Hmm. I guess that's something we all have to observe on our own, but on my Technics and PJ Belt drive decks, 2lbs of weight certainly slowed down the platter.

Do what sounds best I guess.

[02audionoob]

Hmm. I guess that's something we all have to observe on our own, but on my Technics and PJ Belt drive decks, 2lbs of weight certainly slowed down the platter.

Do what sounds best I guess.

Slowed it down to a consistent slower speed or slowed it down erratically like it was going to stall it? Or maybe your belt was slipping? Take a look at the Wikipedia article on AC synchronous motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_motor). One of the bullet points under Advantages says, "Speed is independent of the load, provided an adequate field current is applied." The glass platter on my Music Hall MMF-5 weighs over 3 pounds.

[poppachubby]

Slowed it down to a consistent slower speed or slowed it down erratically like it was going to stall it? Or maybe your belt was slipping? Take a look at the Wikipedia article on AC synchronous motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_motor). One of the bullet points under Advantages says, "Speed is independent of the load, provided an adequate field current is applied." The glass platter on my Music Hall MMF-5 weighs over 3 pounds.

How much does the acrylic one weigh?

[02audionoob]

How much does the acrylic one weigh?

Needle Doctor told me the Pro-Ject Acryl-It platter weighs 1.6 pounds. I have not found a confirmation of the exact number, but at the Sumiko website I found the weight of the Xpression III is listed as 12.4 pounds and the Debut III is listed as 14 pounds. From outward appearance, it appears that this difference in weight of the two turntables would be due to the lighter platter on the Xpression III.

To be more specific about my Music Hall glass platter...it weighs 62 ounces. The GrooveTracer website says their acrylic platter for Rega matches the weight of Rega's glass platter at 70 ounces by using acrylic of a larger dimension than other acrylic platters. The GrooveTracer owner believes it is necessary to maintain the mass of the original platter and has stated that in other forums, like AK and VE. I suspect there's one advantage to the lighter platter in that the turntable could probably recover faster from wow and flutter with less weight to turn. However, the greater mass has more inertia, so it might experience less deviation in the first place...flywheel effect. I've been meaning to read up on that, but really I'd just like to hear it for myself.

[poppachubby]

Ya I don't know about that. Without any drive, the belt wil slow down the platter. Even if it's big and heavy I'd be surprised by any other result. Anyhow, I guess it just depends on a specific table as to whether it's too heavy or not.

[02audionoob]

Ya I don't know about that.

I don't follow. Don't know about what?

[poppachubby]

I suspect there's one advantage to the lighter platter in that the turntable could probably recover faster from wow and flutter with less weight to turn. However, the greater mass has more inertia, so it might experience less deviation in the first place...flywheel effect. I've been meaning to read up on that, but really I'd just like to hear it for myself.

This...

[02audionoob]

Do you think there's an advantage to having either more or less mass in the platter? The guy at GrooveTracer is specifically trying to maintain mass in his platter.

[poppachubby]

Well I can't really say I know. Certainly more mass as far as thickness is a good thing in terms of vibration. Also with a clamp, we know the added benefit of more mass, particularily acrylic is a good thing. But when it's too much, I don't know. Like I said, probably requires the owner to test the waters on their specific table.

[02audionoob]

I believe more mass and therefore more inertia makes good sense, especially if you can minimize friction, like in the case of Clearaudio's magnetic bearing. If I understand correctly, Rega seems to believe not so much in assemblies that resist vibration but rather in assemblies that dissipate that energy quickly.

[poppachubby]

At what price point do they "believe"? Does the 1 model have it? Of all the big tables, I know Rega the least.

[02audionoob]

I think the slim but very rigid plinth is representative of Rega's philosophy starting with the P1. Look at the platter of the P9, though...ceramic. Extremely hard material.

[poppachubby]

OK, went really heavy on this one. 1.25Kg...so far results are quite pleasant. Superior depth.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2733/4314712249_177098ca5a.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4315447358_4191e944d0.jpg

[02audionoob]

Huge!

[poppachubby]

Looks good though, doesn't it?

[02audionoob]

Is that stainless steel?

[poppachubby]

Steel