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wd515
12-29-2009, 08:13 PM
Hey there,

I'm new to the forum and would like a suggestion as to how to get started in the hifi world
I'd like to buy a decent tube amp for under $500. I I want to listen to vinyl, but I also want to listen to other sources - what provides decent quality besides mp3(lossless)?
does owning a bluray have any advantages in respect to audio?
My other question is that I would like floorstanding speakers, but also have future aspirations for a home theatre systems. Can I use them for both (two inputs for each speaker or something.
Forgive my newbness, just want to built a system from scratch with your help.

02audionoob
12-29-2009, 09:52 PM
You could probably get a used Jolida tube amp on Audiogon for under $500. I'm not sure I wouldn't just prefer something like the Onkyo A-9555 (http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/ONKA9555BLK/Onkyo/A-9555-Integrated-Digital-Amplifier-Black/1.html)

cjpremierfour
12-29-2009, 10:46 PM
If your looking for Home Theater in the future, you may want to forget the tube amp. The tube amp will require a pre-amp unless you buy an intergrated unit. After you buy the turn table and your other DVD/CD/ MP3 source, you will have quite a few bucks wrapped up on your system.
It all depends on how much you want to spend and how you will upgrade. ( What direction will you want to go, Home Theater or 2 channel Hi-Fi )

Many Home Theater systems can sound great in 2 channel. If possible, you may want to visit a near by city and go stereo shopping. Go listen to some Demo's on Home Theater and 2 channel audio, you then go home and think it over. Look up reviews, specs, how much room you have, etc. There are people on this board that will spend days looking at reviews before buying replacement tube for their amps. Take your time spending your money, this hobby can be expensive!

As far as using floor standing speakers in Home Theater. You can choose different options that will mix your bass for large floor standing speaker. Most receiver will have different ways to send bass to your front mains if you choose not to use a sub-woofer.

*** There will be no way ( and no reason to do so ) to sent 2 different inputs to your speakers for stereo and Home Theater. One input from your receiver or amplifier is all you need.

Keep in mind that you can still listen to movies and TV programs in 2 channel audio if you decide to go with the tube amp.

poppachubby
12-29-2009, 10:52 PM
You could integrate your 2-channel with your H/T, but it would be a real bother IMO. There have been some amazing threads and suggestions recently regarding H/T. Personally, I say keep them seperate if at all possible.

I have recently purchased a tube amp. Tube amps are partial to horn style speakers. Perhaps you are familiar with the brand Klipsch? I use that as an example of a horn loaded speaker. Also, a full range, high efficiency speaker would do well with a tube amp. Tekton is a good example of this.

Here is a Klipsch RB-61 horn loaded speaker,

http://www.sounddistributors.com/images/RB61400x400.jpg

Here is a Tekton Model 6.1,


http://www.tektondesign.com/images/model65big.jpg

Both of these retail around $400 USD new. A nice used option would be this guy on Ebay. He builds a nice full range DIY speaker and puts them up for auction. Check it out...http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190343220079&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://i.ebayimg.com/16/!BZ10rQ!!2k~$(KGrHgoH-C0EjlLlt+dzBKorbKUjn!~~_12.JPG

As far as the amp goes, for under $500, you'd be looking at high quality used. As noob said, check Audiogon. If you look on Ebay, you can find hobbyists who convert the old console tube players into small, efficient tube amps. They usually sell them quite cheap.
Hope this gets you going...

Mr Peabody
12-29-2009, 11:08 PM
Hey there,

I'm new to the forum and would like a suggestion as to how to get started in the hifi world
I'd like to buy a decent tube amp for under $500. I I want to listen to vinyl, but I also want to listen to other sources - what provides decent quality besides mp3(lossless)?

CD's are probably the most widely used format. Some people are getting into turntables but that can be a bit involved for beginning. Jolida is a good suggestion. The only other tube amps I know of that cheap are some of the Chinese brands that I'm not familiar with. Out of curiosity, why tubes? There are a lot more choices in solid state integrated, NAD or Cambridge Audio.

does owning a bluray have any advantages in respect to audio?

Not much music available on Blu-ray yet. If not, looking to play video and no HDTV, I'd wait on Blu.

My other question is that I would like floorstanding speakers, but also have future aspirations for a home theatre systems. Can I use them for both (two inputs for each speaker or something.
Forgive my newbness, just want to built a system from scratch with your help.

Now things get interesting. Are you going to have two systems when going to HT? As you will notice in my signature, I have two systems. What I do is switch the cable at the back of the speaker depending on which system I will use. Banana plugs makes this easy. When picking your floorstanding speakers I'd pick a brand that offered a matching center channel for your model so you can add it when you go HT.

If not wanting two systems you either need to scratch the HT or the tube amp. There are integrated amps that have a feature input that bypasses the preamp section for home theater so you can use the integrated amp to drive your main speakers of a HT set up. You need preamp outputs on the receiver. You connect the receiver's preamp left/right main output to the integrated amps input I was telling you about, this makes the integrated a slave to the receiver for HT. In my opinion tubes and solid state sound do not mix in a HT set up, they just don't blend. In addition, that's a lot of hours on tubes if maintenance and expense is a concern.

If you have Lossless music files many people will not bother with other sources for music. You might consider DAC from Grand Fidelity, not sure the model number. It will hook into your USB and decode your digital music files. If memory serves this also has a headphone input and volume control so you can connect it to a power amp and speakers, as well as use it for headphones.

poppachubby
12-30-2009, 01:46 AM
If you have Lossless music files many people will not bother with other sources for music. You might consider DAC from Grand Fidelity, not sure the model number. It will hook into your USB and decode your digital music files. If memory serves this also has a headphone input and volume control so you can connect it to a power amp and speakers, as well as use it for headphones.

Grant Fidelity Tube DAC-09 $275 USD Shipped
http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/Grant_Fidelity_Tube_DAC-09


http://grantfidelity.com/site/files/DAC09-4front.jpg

manlystanley
12-30-2009, 03:48 AM
Hey there,

I'm new to the forum and would like a suggestion as to how to get started in the hifi world
I'd like to buy a decent tube amp for under $500. I I want to listen to vinyl, but I also want to listen to other sources - what provides decent quality besides mp3(lossless)?
does owning a bluray have any advantages in respect to audio?
My other question is that I would like floorstanding speakers, but also have future aspirations for a home theatre systems. Can I use them for both (two inputs for each speaker or something.
Forgive my newbness, just want to built a system from scratch with your help.

Hello WB,
I've been doing HI-FI and video for about 2 years and what I've found is that audio is addictive. So, think of us as your fellow brothers who are happily pumping Hi-Fi audio/video into our brains in order to get the latest high. But, like all addictions the 'need' grows and gradually we 'need' more and more.

Two years ago I started with a $50 used Denon receiver with a $50 pair of used speakers. As the 'need' grew I got more and more. Now I have a 250W power amp, with a separate pre amp along with 6 foot tall speakers. However, the 'need' will continue to grow and grow.

With that said, I'd suggest that you start small and find out what you like and dislike. In my two year journey I learned so much from the people on this site and have had gobs of fun. I'd suggest that you start looking at Craigslist and learn how to pick the few choice plums from the basket that's also mixed with rotten fruit. It's time consuming, but it's kind of fun. Then come and tell us of your score and we can all celebrate (you know we're all in this joint for life--so might as well have some fun).

I'll let others comment on if this is a good deal or not (They know more then me), but here's a complete system on craigslist for $200 (Minus speakers): http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/ele/1528658952.html

*************************** Copied from CL **************************
$200 or OBO. Cash and Carry.
System includes:
Pioneer DT-570 Audio Digital Timer
Pioneer F-99X FM/AM Digital Synthesizer Tuner (Rose Wood side panels)
Pioneer SG-90 Graphic Equalizer
Pioneer PD-M900 Multi-Play (5 Disc) CD Player (Rose Wood side panels)
Pioneer A-88X Stereo Amplifier (Rose Wood side panels)
Yamaha K-1020 Cassette Deck
O’Sullivan Stereo rack

************************************************** *************************

Lots of people are upgrading there systems these days. I've had good luck on CL.

Best Regards,
Stan

Mr Peabody
12-30-2009, 07:25 AM
Thanks Poppa for picking up the slack on that GF piece.

wd515
12-30-2009, 07:37 AM
Amazing,
I don't think anyone has ever replied back over night in a forum. What am I getting into?:)
I appreciate all the suggestions. I love the rb61's, I read they might sound tinny but hope the tube amp would minimize that. If i started with the rb61s and an integrated tube amp, could I not just use them for rears in a future ht setup with banana plugs? Everything would be seperate for HT, but the rb's would see dual use?
I would need an integrated amp, or a pre amp, if I want to use a TT with a mp3/cd player right? The grand fidelity dac converts to lossless on the fly? Or should I scrap the idea and just buy HT in a box, and put more money to 2 channel stuff.
Sorry i'm new to this stuff. The Jolida looks great, i like this
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1265153350&/Jolida-JD-801A-Tube-integrated although it's over budget.
Anyway, keep it comin' i'm pumped to start buying stuff. I've never owned a real stereo before, so might as well start with a quality one. Thanks again guys.

Mr Peabody
12-30-2009, 08:00 AM
That 801 looks pretty good. I'd Google it to see if you can find out what original retail was. Also, if you've never used tubes, power output tubes require biasing to begin with and an occasional check. Some amps require use of a voltage meter for biasing. So if you aren't comfortable with that you might look for one that "auto biases" PrimaLuna comes to mind but not in your budget unless you can find one used. Conrad Johnson uses an easy LED set up but I'm not sure if any one else has adopted that.

When using a turntable it requires a phono stage(phono preamp) because the output signal is lower than typical source componets like tape, CD etc. The phono stage can be built in or outboard and doesn't have anything to do with whether you use a receiver, integrated or separates. You can actually find turntables with the preamp built in, I believe Denon makes one. Some other brands that have them built in are sort of cheezy. One thing about turntables if you are going to do it for sound quality it isn't going to be cheap. In my opinion mass market tables aren't worth your time and expense. You can get pretty good sound and the experience may be worth while before moving up. However, the improvement in sound quality is big when getting into a brand like Rega. There are other accepted good brands but I have not personally used them, such as Music Hall and ProJect. Playing vinyl is not convenient but sometimes fun and rewarding. Looking for good LP's in thrift stores, yard sales and resale shops can be fun. But think about some of this and see if it would be fun to you.

02audionoob
12-30-2009, 08:17 AM
If you’re looking to convert analog to lossless digital files, you need something like the M-Audio Transit or the SoundBlaster Live! USB. Or you could run analog interconnects to a mini-plug adapter and plug that into your sound card. M-Audio also makes a nice sound card that has RCA jacks. You can then record in Audacity (free software that can be downloaded) or the software that comes with the device. The DAC is for converting digital to analog, so it can be passed on to an amp - not for the purpose of making files.

I also like the idea of two systems. Jolida isn’t the top tier of tube equipment, but it would introduce you to the tube world. If you want to use a turntable, you could start out thrifty by getting one with a built-in preamp, like the Denon DP-300F. You could upgrade to a tube phono preamp by picking up something on Audiogon, like the Bellari VP129 or VP130, or the Pro-Ject Tube Box. There’s also the Jolida JD-9A. There are some highly-regarded solid-state phono preamps you could look at, depending on what you want to spend. The Cambridge Audio 640P is under $200, new. The PS Audio GCPH has a list price of around $1,000 but goes for around $650 on Audiogon, new. Of course, both solid-state and tube models can run up into much higher prices.

I’m a fan of the Klipsch RB series, so I agree with your approach there – use a pair in the 2-channel setup and perhaps later convert them to double-duty. This assumes you add more similar Klipsch speakers for the HT system, so the sonic characteristics match. My HT system is actually on the low-end side of things…a Pioneer receiver and a set of JBL S-Series speakers. I never even think about upgrades, other than when I added a Blu-ray. My audio mental energy goes into my 2-channel setup. I have an Audio Research CA50, which is a 50-watt tube integrated. If you do buy a Jolida on Audiogon, you could always put it back on Audiogon someday and move up to Audio Research. In fact, on the used market, Audio Research equipment is pretty affordable.

One last thing – don’t skimp on the source. If you’re going to listen to CDs, get a good player. If you can afford a good turntable, consider at least the middle of the product lines of Rega, Pro-Ject or Music Hall, like the Rega P3-24, Pro-Ject Xpression III or Music Hall MMF-5.1. If you get a lesser turntable, put a good cartridge on it.

Mr Peabody
12-30-2009, 08:26 AM
wd515, nothing will change a mp3 to Lossless though. The original track would need to be in Lossless.

wd515
12-30-2009, 09:50 AM
Thanks for all the info. A bit overwhelmed. The options are endless so I have some thinking to do...so rb speakers with a turntable with a built in preamp, the joliba tube amp, and the tube dac? Does this tube dac mean i can plug in, say, a psp or squeezebox as a source? learning lots!!

E-Stat
12-30-2009, 10:18 AM
You could upgrade to a tube phono preamp by picking up something on Audiogon, like the Bellari VP129 or VP130, or the Pro-Ject Tube Box.
Minor clarification here. I have a VP129 and like it very much, but... while there is ONE dual triode for both channels, it serves only as a buffer stage. All the gain is performed by two separate stages of op amps. As such, it is really a hybrid unit, not tube.

rw

02audionoob
12-30-2009, 10:28 AM
Thanks for all the info. A bit overwhelmed. The options are endless so I have some thinking to do...so rb speakers with a turntable with a built in preamp, the joliba tube amp, and the tube dac? Does this tube dac mean i can plug in, say, a psp or squeezebox as a source? learning lots!!

Yes...you could connect the digital output of a Squeezebox to the DAC.

poppachubby
12-30-2009, 11:24 AM
Don't get too caught up on the Klipsch. The RB-61 is a great match for a tube amp, but as a newbie, I was trying to give you a name you might recognize. Try and think about horns in general.

Here is an interesting site for you to look at. Welcome to the world of Frugal Horns! I am currently in the process of building the Metronome design. All of the models you see have plans available, if you have any DIY savvy. The great thing is, if you have the ability to build/create, Frugal horns is a great option. If not, oh well. Check out the site anyhow...

http://www.frugal-horn.com/

BTW, here's the Metronome. VERY easy build...

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/metronome-crop.jpg

poppachubby
12-30-2009, 11:42 AM
Oh and BTW, my opinion is keep your H/T seperate if you can. Most guys here "slack" when it comes to H/T. But then again, our opinion of slack still involves fidelity. Lately I have been REALLY enjoying my movies. My H/T gear is far from amazing or S.O.T.A., but my living room comes to life when a movie goes on. The great thing is, I paid next to nothing for it.

There are some guys on here who can put you onto some amazing deals for this. Then you can just focus on building a 2 channel system. H/T can be a distraction and hinderance when integrating with 2 channel.

I only have a 32" Sony Vega and Sony STR-DE575. I get a nice picture and the amp does what it needs to digitally. I bought them both new several years ago.

http://www.cbshosting.com/garage_sale/i/kv32xbr250.jpg

http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2001/158/h158STRE575-f_MTp.jpg

I have a PSB Century 100i Center, Angstrom Modular Three Mains, Polk r15 Surrounds and a powered KLH sub. All together I paid approx. $300 CDN for these. Just waiting patiently for deals to come around.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll274/thanhtung13188/PSBCentury100Ci001.jpg
http://www.angstromloudspeakers.com/Images/Modular/ModularThreeBlkPair.jpg
http://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/products/2002/107/h107r15-f-1p.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MN1D0RRPL._SS400_.jpg

wd515
12-30-2009, 12:24 PM
Thanks for the input. I think you're right - HT should be seperate, one thing at a time. So 2 ch. stuff for now. I'll keep looking for tube amps and tt's in my price range. I don't care about wattage but i listen to all types of music, so something versatile is important. Are you guys able to discern between the different types of tubes? and to clarify, i would have to get a tt with a build in preamp, otherwise i would need something like the pro-ject tube box? and an integrated tube amp,or..?
sorry for the quesitons - complete newbie-

blackraven
12-30-2009, 12:40 PM
Take a look at this Tube Audio Design TAD-60

http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?intatube&1259461425

www.spearitsound.com has a demo on sale for around $600 and it lists for $1300.

Another option which would be cheaper would be to use a tube buffer like this

http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/B-283+Tube+Processor+Buffer

http://www.pacificvalve.us/YaqinTB.html

If you are wanting to get away from the digital sound with out tubes you can do that by carefully picking your equipment. Certain brands are known for a warmer sound. Marantz CD players and amps, B&K amplifiers (you can pick up a new reference series 125.2 amp for about $600 and much less used on audiogon) Van Alstine (check his refurbished gear http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/used/used.htm this company strives to obtain a more tube like sound with its solid state equipment), NHT Speakers-nice warm sounding speaker, NAD equipment.

02audionoob
12-30-2009, 01:19 PM
An integrated amp is a combination of amp and preamp. It might or might not have an internal phono preamp. If your integrated amp does not have phono, you'll need either a separate phono preamp or a turntable with its own built-in phono preamp. The quality of the built-in preamp on a turntable is not as good as most external preamps or maybe even the phono preamps in integrated amps, so it would be a worthwhile upgrade to eventually get an external phono preamp even with a turntable that has its own.

wd515
12-30-2009, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the clarification and amp suggestion.
If i use a dac through a cd player, computer, or squeezebox, being an analog signal, how would it compare to vinyl? just wondering.

Mr Peabody
12-30-2009, 05:49 PM
DAC=digital to analog converter. A DAC is inside each CD player, or home theater receiver as far as that goes. So you'd use either a outboard DAC or CD player. You could use a CD player or DVD player as transport to feed the DAC, transport being the part that plays and controls the CD. A transport isn't necessary if using some type of music server. So the transport or server would deliver a digital signal to the DAC. The connection from a transport being optical or coaxial while a server probably would be USB.

There's no way to tell you how it would compare, a lot would depend on how good each is. Many people enjoy turntable feeling it gives a more warm and pleasing sound. I've heard some great digital playback so I know it can sound good. I have both, both sound good to me. I'm not a strong hold for either camp. I will say that if an LP is to sound good it needs to be in good shape. Aside from LP's not being convenient there is potential for a lot of background noise. With my Rega and a LP in good condition it's hard to tell apart from a CD except maybe between tracks in that silent space, in regards to quietness. The only thing I can say regarding sound difference is that they are different presentations. Both are enjoyable to me.

wd515
03-26-2010, 07:15 PM
This is the thread that got me started in Hi-fi so i'm temporarily reviving it. I finally put together a system and opted for an onix sp3 with the ref 1 speakers. Only a dvd player as a cdp right now but i still plan on getting the sb3 and eventually a dac Was it worth the wait and the investment? Yes. I've never been 'lost' in music before. What an experience! I am somewhat worried about losing the synergy i have with an sb3 - but i only have an old jvc dvd as a source with no fancy cables, basic rca and speaker wire, and i still am amazed with the nuances that were unrecognizable beforehand.
I will post pics soon. Thanks to all that helped me decide. I came so close to using the tektons, and would still love to hear a fostex driver, espcially a hornshoppe type.

wd515
03-28-2010, 04:08 PM
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j39/vroommx6/IMG_0556.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j39/vroommx6/IMG_0552.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j39/vroommx6/IMG_0549.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j39/vroommx6/IMG_0538.jpg

:15:
:D
:D

Thanks again to everyone for educating me on the basics of hifi!

JoeE SP9
03-29-2010, 02:38 PM
Very nice setup you got there. PC's suggestion of a Grant Fidelity tube DAC is a good idea. It will make a plain jane DVD player sound much better.
Your speakers will sound much better spread 5 or 6 feet apart and on stands that get the tweeters at ear height when seated.

E-Stat
03-29-2010, 02:51 PM
Very nice setup you got there. PC's suggestion of a Grant Fidelity tube DAC is a good idea. It will make a plain jane DVD player sound much better.
I agree with the concept, but if you look closely, what you find is a hybrid affair much like my Bellari VP-129 phono pre. A single dual triode does not have enough gain to provide two volt stereo output. A JFET LF353N op amp is used in the design and appears to do the heavy lifting. I suspect that the tube is used as a buffer stage as with the Bellari. In the vintage system, I use a Manley DAC with a pair of 12AU7s in the output section. Note that the REF series of Audio Research CDPs uses four tubes in the output section.

rw

poppachubby
03-29-2010, 03:04 PM
Looks great!! Congrats and enjoy the ride...

wd515
03-29-2010, 06:31 PM
Thanks for all the comments. I've been looking foward to buying stands, some were for sale at av123 around $110...does the base plate have to be the same size as the bottom of the speaker?
i'd like to get a squeezebox to go with a dac...and since this is a bone stock system, i look foward to getting better cables/speaker wire soon..I'm convinced an flac setup will retain good synergy with a dac..not sure how i started the thread with 'i want vinyl' and now it's 'i want selection'...!
So how does the system sound as it stands?
well, as commented the speakers are close together, and, sound close together. The room I have them in really compliments the size of the speakers (small 8x10 carpeted).
Vocals are in your face realistic, pianos are very 3d like (this is something i haven't heard until my hifi journey), and guitars are crystal clear.
If there is one thing i've learned that I didn't know before, it's that the system is half the battle, it seems as though the producer who made the cd is the other important side of the coin in quality audio. So far, my favorite cd, astral weeks, is also the best sounding. Elliot Smith XO a close second. *****es Brew, is oddly enough, the worst sounding, as static noise completely drains out the music.??? I figured exhale on main street would sound amazing because so much stuff is going on in every track, but, not so much...?

again thanks for the comments, any bang for your buck upgrade suggestions welcome!

wd515
12-20-2013, 08:51 AM
I'm putting my old thread back to life to ask a question to the hifi people here. Since beginning my journey a few years back, my system has seen some changes. The SB3, although it sounded incredible, I could never get the thing working and ended up selling it. I used a Playstation 1 cd player, which surprisingly lived up the hype and matched well with the tube amp. Now my system has evolved again as I bought a tcc-750 phono preamp to go along with a pro-ject debut II record player which goes through the Onix sp3. Yes, I am somewhat new to vinyl, but the dynamics in the system have really changed. It's almost too warm, too rolled off, as if the speakers are positioned 20 feet back instead of right in front of me. Is this just me getting used to vinyl again, or can something in my system be improved to bring the sound forward again.

thanks :)

blackraven
12-20-2013, 09:57 AM
I would consider upgrading to a higher end phono preamp. Take a look here-

Phono Preamps (http://www.needledoctor.com/Phono-Preamps)


I would not skimp on phono preamp. Give them a call, tell them what gear you have and your problem and they can make some good recommendations on what preamp and cartridge will match with your TT and system. Consider something in the $300-400 range. Check used on Audiogon.

The Clear Audio nano is a very good preamp. If it is above your budget, consider the Cambridge Audio 651p. Correct matching of TT, Cartridge and Phono Preamp is very important.

What cartridge are you using? You may need to upgrade it as well.

Vinyl will not sound nearly as dynamic as digital music especially with a lower priced analog system.

wd515
12-20-2013, 03:41 PM
I would consider upgrading to a higher end phono preamp. Take a look here-

Phono Preamps (http://www.needledoctor.com/Phono-Preamps)


I would not skimp on phono preamp. Give them a call, tell them what gear you have and your problem and they can make some good recommendations on what preamp and cartridge will match with your TT and system. Consider something in the $300-400 range. Check used on Audiogon.

The Clear Audio nano is a very good preamp. If it is above your budget, consider the Cambridge Audio 651p. Correct matching of TT, Cartridge and Phono Preamp is very important.

What cartridge are you using? You may need to upgrade it as well.

Vinyl will not sound nearly as dynamic as digital music especially with a lower priced analog system.

Thanks for your response.

I suppose your right, the preamp just isin't doing enough. It did receive great reviews, but they were on amazon's site not a hi-fi audio site. It sounds good, but like the rest of the people on here, i'm looking for great.

I'm using the stock cartridge...ortholon 5me I believe.

I guess i'll consider spending some more on a better preamp, or maybe even asking a store to let me try one on my system.