Wire is Wire - The Proof

[Rikki]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). I had VERY inexpensive 12 gauge speaker wire from Radio Shack (from a spool) connected to the mains. It sounded fine, but reading forums and talking to some friends I decided to upgrade to Monster Cable. I bought Monster Z1 cable 10ft pair for $75. Absolutely NO DIFFERNCE IN SOUND. And believe me if you’re familiar with Klipsch speakers (or read the reviews) they are extremely sensitive to what’s connected to them and are notorious for shedding light on the short comings of your system. At some point I’d like to get a Rotel pre-amp/amp and I’ll try the same test, but I’m sure the results would be the same.

I realize there are much higher end cable$/wire$ out there than Monster Z1, but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.

[mtrycraft]

but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. Wire is wire.


Many have tried to demonstrate differences, none have succeeded in all this time with comparable cables :D

By the way, you may be close to two very good audio clubs that would be glad to help you out in the comparisons :), even of amps and other components:)

[DMK]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). I had VERY inexpensive 12 gauge speaker wire from Radio Shack (from a spool) connected to the mains. It sounded fine, but reading forums and talking to some friends I decided to upgrade to Monster Cable. I bought Monster Z1 cable 10ft pair for $75. Absolutely NO DIFFERNCE IN SOUND. And believe me if you’re familiar with Klipsch speakers (or read the reviews) they are extremely sensitive to what’s connected to them and are notorious for shedding light on the short comings of your system. At some point I’d like to get a Rotel pre-amp/amp and I’ll try the same test, but I’m sure the results would be the same.

I realize there are much higher end cable$/wire$ out there than Monster Z1, but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.

But you came to the correct conclusion, so what the heck! And please don't take Mtrycrafts advice! I did, and I spent untold numbers of hours doing blind tests, only to come to the conclusion you arrived at easily! An insidious chap, that Mtrycrafts. I could hear him chortling from afar during my tests and he made me admit that I heard no differences under blind conditions right here on this forum! Oh, he haff vays of making you talk! I felt stupid and yet, I felt somehow smarter at the same time. Oh, he is a devious, sinister fiend!

[stratman672001]

I always felt this way about speaker cable. I never really bought into the "Silver plated garden hose" syndrome. All you need to know is this: Runs under 10', go with 16 gauge. Anything over 10', use 12 gauge. Simple. No?

[skeptic]

This hardly constitutes proof of anything. It is as unscientific and unjustified a conclusion based on almost no experience, as the claims that they do make a difference. How you feel and what you are guessing does not constitute proof. Only rigorous fair testing and retesting which can be verified by impartial people equally qualified constitutes strong evidence. It is not easy or necessarily even possible to prove a negative.

Having said that, and agreeing that nobody has published any credible proof, that does not mean that the infinitely inventive mind of man cannot devise a wire which causes a loudspeaker to sound different than another wire. Not necessarily better, just different.

However, it is not up to any of us to prove that these wires sound the same, it is up to those who would try to convice us that they are better to offer proof first by proving that they do sound different through fair and impartial tests. They have not done that after more than twenty years of selling these products as far as I can tell and my hunch is that it's because they can't. But even if they could, to justify their difference in price, any difference whatsoever, they must not only prove that they sound different but that the sound is better and that the improvement cannot be obtained in any other more cost effective way. Finally, after all of that is done, it becomes the decision of those who must buy the product to determine whether the improvement is worth the cost.

The debate should remain fair on both sides and irrational bashing does nothing to convince the thoughtful fence sitter that either side is right.

[Sondek]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.

You should stop right there. RF-7 are highly colored. They are overly bright, and the horn shout is prominent. Not hearing that alone disqualifies you from any hearing experiments. They are not exactly balanced, nor high end. Yamaha doesn't make anything particularly revealing. Instead of discreet components there are integrated circuits. I find the sound opaque. This system could not be used to master recordings, it's colored, and not revealing enough.

This sounds mean, but it's all true.

That is a very bad test bed in which to declare findings.
Your results are flawed.

I witnessed a "contest" like this. A guy told me there is no difference in cd players. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He tried it on his system, and another system. Sadly, he had bose, and the other system were some technics speakers. Neither one adequate for reference monitoring. This is much the same.

It also assumes you have a reference system, all speakers are equal and all amps are equal. That is all flawed logic.

[mtrycraft]

But you came to the correct conclusion, so what the heck! And please don't take Mtrycrafts advice! I did, and I spent untold numbers of hours doing blind tests, only to come to the conclusion you arrived at easily! An insidious chap, that Mtrycrafts. I could hear him chortling from afar during my tests and he made me admit that I heard no differences under blind conditions right here on this forum! Oh, he haff vays of making you talk! I felt stupid and yet, I felt somehow smarter at the same time. Oh, he is a devious, sinister fiend!


Ah, thanks for all the compliments. :)

[mtrycraft]

This sounds mean, but it's all true.


No, you just made a statement. Its truthfullness has yet to be established, right.

That is a very bad test bed in which to declare findings.

That is you opinion. Everyone has one; not all are created equal, right.

Your results are flawed.

Yep, not published, not peer reviewed. But then, so are all the reports for audible differences in cable, right.

I witnessed a "contest" like this. A guy told me there is no difference in cd players. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He tried it on his system, and another system. Sadly, he had bose, and the other system were some technics speakers. Neither one adequate for reference monitoring. This is much the same.

You speculation, yes.

It also assumes you have a reference system, all speakers are equal and all amps are equal. That is all flawed logic.

Is that what he stated? Or you are just speculating out of thin air?

I am sure you have evidence that you would approve of, right? Cite it please.

[WmAx]

I'd say this is ironclad proof that you are, in fact all of the above. The data is in. Now, just go away and listen to your boombox and let the real audiophiles play.What exactly is a "real audiophile"?

Speculating about mtrycrafts, I would not be at all suprised if what he does and/or has in real life is nothing less amazing in terms of performance; he probably finds it entertaining to see the baseless accusuations cast upon him. Again, I'm just speculating. :-)

-Chris

[Sondek]

What exactly is a "real audiophile"?

Speculating about mtrycrafts, I would not be at all suprised if what he does and/or has in real life is nothing less amazing in terms of performance; he probably finds it entertaining to see the baseless accusuations cast upon him. Again, I'm just speculating. :-)

-Chris

Actually, it is scientific and completely accurate based upon his posts. As a third party to the experiment, I am in complete agreement with the well-documented results.

It's a perfect, air-tight basis in which to examine the motives, mind and psyche of mtrycrafts, and his lap-dogs, drones and mindless followers.

[okiemax]

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

Here’s how I came to that conclusion…
I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). I had VERY inexpensive 12 gauge speaker wire from Radio Shack (from a spool) connected to the mains. It sounded fine, but reading forums and talking to some friends I decided to upgrade to Monster Cable. I bought Monster Z1 cable 10ft pair for $75. Absolutely NO DIFFERNCE IN SOUND. And believe me if you’re familiar with Klipsch speakers (or read the reviews) they are extremely sensitive to what’s connected to them and are notorious for shedding light on the short comings of your system. At some point I’d like to get a Rotel pre-amp/amp and I’ll try the same test, but I’m sure the results would be the same.

I realize there are much higher end cable$/wire$ out there than Monster Z1, but I’m confident that the results would be the same, so I’m not about to spend a nickel more on wire. I mean think about it…you can put insulation around wire, braid it in multiple strands like Bo Derek’s hair, and do other tricks, but you can’t really improve wire. Wire is wire.


It looks like you are catching it from all sides here for relating your experience with the Monster Z1 speaker cable. I believe cables can make a difference, but do not believe they necessarily will make a difference. I also believe you are the best judge of what works for you. You tried the cable, and concluded it was a waste of money. I see no reason to dispute your claim. Hopefully, you can return the wire for a refund.

Perhaps you would have saved time and money by asking forum members for advice before buying the cable. The naysayers would have recommended avoiding audiophile wires altogether. Even though I believe cables can make a difference, I would have questioned the economics of spending $75 on speaker wire for aYamaha RX-V670 receiver, when the receiver might not be worth much more than that amount in the used market.

The manual for your Klipsch RF-7 speakers recommends bi-wiring them to the amp. Whatever you do, don't ask about bi-wiring on this forum.

[kode3]

You should stop right there. RF-7 are highly colored. They are overly bright, and the horn shout is prominent. Not hearing that alone disqualifies you from any hearing experiments. They are not exactly balanced, nor high end. Yamaha doesn't make anything particularly revealing. Instead of discreet components there are integrated circuits. I find the sound opaque. This system could not be used to master recordings, it's colored, and not revealing enough.

This sounds mean, but it's all true.

That is a very bad test bed in which to declare findings.
Your results are flawed.

I witnessed a "contest" like this. A guy told me there is no difference in cd players. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He tried it on his system, and another system. Sadly, he had bose, and the other system were some technics speakers. Neither one adequate for reference monitoring. This is much the same.

It also assumes you have a reference system, all speakers are equal and all amps are equal. That is all flawed logic.

Very well said, I must agree.

[Sondek]

Very well said, I must agree.


To show that I am sincere, and not just raining on the parade here do this:

Take *any* cd player, any amp, any cables, any room. Listen to a variety of string quartette and violin music on the rf-7, or any reference klipsch.

The horn aperture resonates badly, and colors the sound. You can close your eyes and clearly get a mental picture of the size, position, and shape of the horn opening.

This is inherent to the speaker.

This is unacceptable, and limits the rf series to midfi and HT. A couple of my comrades that are not into stereo at all could hear it. One guy commented on how it sounds like an intercom.

[pctower]

[QUOTE=Sondek]I just ran an objective test with 6 on my friends. The task was to read 10 of your posts, and supply an opinion.

Scientific poll results:

From your post reading: would you say:

I personally find your crude, personal attacks on mtrycrafts to be highly offensive. Posts like this merely serve to poison the atmosphere on this board and discourage reasonable, informed, informative discourse.

I am only one board member without any authority here. However, I am personally requesting that you refrain from such behavior in the future.

[E-Stat]

I have a set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers, and an older high end Yamaha receiver (Yamaha RX-V670). I had VERY inexpensive 12 gauge speaker wire from Radio Shack (from a spool) connected to the mains. It sounded fine, but reading forums and talking to some friends I decided to upgrade to Monster Cable. I bought Monster Z1 cable 10ft pair for $75. Absolutely NO DIFFERNCE IN SOUND.
I'd say your proof is just as compelling as every other report I've seen on this board. :)

rw

[Sondek]

I personally find your crude, personal attacks on mtrycrafts to be highly offensive. Posts like this merely serve to poison the atmosphere on this board and discourage reasonable, informed, informative discourse.

I am only one board member without any authority here. However, I am personally requesting that you refrain from such behavior in the future.

Fair enough.

Now you need to tell Mtrycrafts to QUIT interjecting his BIAS, and personal issues into other peoples threads. He is outright calling people liars. He is outright telling people they are imagining things, and what they cannot hear. He is very disingenous, and has no buisiness invading threads with his PERSONAL ATTACKS thinly disguised as psuedo science.

Despite his posting of links and sources, what he is doing, is wrong. Talk about offensive? Someone who obviously listens to radio shack SPL meters, multimeter readings and magazine reviews...everything except music. He is NOT an authority on anything, but he obviously gets off pretending he is. Anyone with a real high end system and long term listening experiance can tell.

I find that personally offensive that he is not curbed in by moderators.

[skeptic]

"It looks like you are catching it from all sides here for relating your experience with the Monster Z1 speaker cable."

Actually what he is catching it for is calling his limited and narrow experience "proof." That's what he called it in the title of his thread. While some people here may not believe it, I am still open to the possibility that someday, somehow, someone, somewhere will demonstrate that one cable is superior to another although that hasn't happened yet IMO. Calling what he offered as "proof" is as irrational and untrue by the standards of most reasonable people as the claims made by other people who just went out and bought and used their first cables and came to the opposite conclusion. Namecalling doesn't change any of it.

[Rikki]

Well, I can only base this on my own equipment and experiences. "Proof" to me just means I don't see any reason to spend any more money or time on cables.

A lot of you sound like so called "experts" but I'd just love to get you all in a room and do some "blind tests", Like not tell you if you are listening to 10 cent wire or $100 wire. I'd bet that would prove my point even further. Where's a good place for everyone to meet ? Does NYC work for everyone ?

[DMK]

Ah, thanks for all the compliments. :)

Are you kidding? I just stopped punching my Mtrycrafts doll last week!!! You should see it, it's got a boombox body, zipcord for arms and legs and a CD for a head. :) You probably don't recall your comment that REALLY made me mad, so mad I created the doll. To refresh your memory, when I had finished with my exhaustive interconnect blind tests and came up empty, you said (paraphrased) "I think you should try speaker cables next!" LOL! Uh, I mean, Grrrrrrr!!!!!! :)

Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you :)

[pctower]

Fair enough.

Now you need to tell Mtrycrafts to QUIT interjecting his BIAS, and personal issues into other peoples threads. He is outright calling people liars. He is outright telling people they are imagining things, and what they cannot hear. He is very disingenous, and has no buisiness invading threads with his PERSONAL ATTACKS thinly disguised as psuedo science.

Despite his posting of links and sources, what he is doing, is wrong. Talk about offensive? Someone who obviously listens to radio shack SPL meters, multimeter readings and magazine reviews...everything except music. He is NOT an authority on anything, but he obviously gets off pretending he is. Anyone with a real high end system and long term listening experiance can tell.

I find that personally offensive that he is not curbed in by moderators.

I've challenged mtrycrafts (appropriately I believe) countless times. He is not an easy challenge as he usually covers himself pretty well. But he's only human, so if you really want to effectively challenge some of his claims and approaches it is possible. It just takes work rather than shooting from the hip.

[Rockwell]

But he's only human, ...

Pure speculation! ;)

[Monstrous Mike]

Fair enough.

Now you need to tell Mtrycrafts to QUIT interjecting his BIAS, and personal issues into other peoples threads. He is outright calling people liars. He is outright telling people they are imagining things, and what they cannot hear. He is very disingenous, and has no buisiness invading threads with his PERSONAL ATTACKS thinly disguised as psuedo science.

Despite his posting of links and sources, what he is doing, is wrong. Talk about offensive? Someone who obviously listens to radio shack SPL meters, multimeter readings and magazine reviews...everything except music. He is NOT an authority on anything, but he obviously gets off pretending he is. Anyone with a real high end system and long term listening experiance can tell.

I find that personally offensive that he is not curbed in by moderators.
I believe you need to do some fundamental research into this area before you wade into this any further. There is significant factor at work when subjectively assessing audio quality and that is perception. Perception is what you report, that is how you perceived a sound to be. It is very difficult to disagree with one's perceptions since that is a personal assessment.

However, we can perceive things to be there when they are not and perceive them not to be there when they are. So when people report that they think cable A sounds better (or different) than cable B, they are actually reporting their perception. To verify that perception it would take a good deal of effort by also making some objective measurements and also correlating your perception with that of others.

It is one thing to say that you are happy with a new product, you think it sounds better and all is well. But it is another thing to say there is an actual, quantifiable improvement that can be demonstrated repeatedly to others and is valid for most situations.

So you are not being called a liar at all, even though you may perceive that to be happening to you. You cannot say that wire A actually sounds different than wire B, you can only say that is how you perceive it. I perceive the exact opposite than you do about wires. That does not mean that one of us is lying and the other is telling the truth. It means that one of us possibly has an inaccurate perception for our given situation.

And one thing about perception is when given some prior knowledge of what you are about to assess, this can and will affect your perception and this is beyond the control of your concious thought. That is why people here are saying the original poster doesn't really have proof of anything. This concept applies equally to both sides of the fence.

Think of it like this. Say there is piece of abstract art, a whirlwind of chaotic color. If someone told you Jackson Pollack painted it you would have different perception of it than if someone told you their 5 year old daughter painted it.

[WmAx]

Actually, it is scientific and completely accurate based upon his posts. As a third party to the experiment, I am in complete agreement with the well-documented results.

It's a perfect, air-tight basis in which to examine the motives, mind and psyche of mtrycrafts, and his lap-dogs, drones and mindless followers.Seemingly silly assertions you are making IMO. But who cares what I think. Why won't you reply to the quesiton i asked? What is a "real audiophile", as you put it? I'm curious of your defintion.

-Chris

[E-Stat]

It just takes work rather than shooting from the hip.
It does take a lot of work constantly using the search engine to remind him of the things he posts and immediately forgets. Or of the studies that he cites and never reads.

rw

[Pat D]

Or of the studies that he cites and never reads.
He has copies of a great many studies and he reads 'em. Trust me, I've seen 'em.

[E-Stat]

He has copies of a great many studies and he reads 'em. Trust me, I've seen 'em.
It's a shame, however, that he is incapable of producing them. Perhaps you can fill the missing gap. What I am referring to is references wherein:

1. He fails to note the cost of the comparative cables, i.e. the Tag McLaren reference to support his $2.00 cables are fine position (one was in excess of $100, and the other about $300) and then uses his childish "you can't comprehend" defensive posture - no my friend, you CAN'T READ.

or

2. First says, then is unable to support the assertion that there are numerous (okay well zero) references where the gear reported is better than receiver and bookshelf receiver. I would be very interested to see even a single test using your fine Quad 'stats and something a cut above mediocre receivers.


rw

[bturk667]

Well there you have it! How could one argue with your conclusions?
I'm glad your happy!

[mtrycraft]

... but I'd just love to get you all in a room and do some "blind tests", Like not tell you if you are listening to 10 cent wire or $100 wire. I'd bet that would prove my point even further.


Naw, then they will pick your components apart, your music, your room, something. their bad hair day, any excuse would do.
But, what you propose has been done for over 20 + years with no audible differences. Only fools reinvent the wheel or chase the rainbow.

[mtrycraft]

Are you kidding? I just stopped punching my Mtrycrafts doll last week!!! You should see it, it's got a boombox body, zipcord for arms and legs and a CD for a head. :) You probably don't recall your comment that REALLY made me mad, so mad I created the doll. To refresh your memory, when I had finished with my exhaustive interconnect blind tests and came up empty, you said (paraphrased) "I think you should try speaker cables next!" LOL! Uh, I mean, Grrrrrrr!!!!!! :)

Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you :)


Now I remember :D

I guess I was too hard on him too early :)

[mtrycraft]

Hey, you sure made an impression on ol' Sondek - and after only 6 posts from him! Usually, it takes people at least twice that many posts before they start insulting you :)

Where is his post to me, deleted?

[Mike That Likes Music]

I don't wish to jump on any bandwagons or backs, but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in". Cables do physically change when electricity runs through them. It has been stated over and over by professional reviewers that new cables and components need time to perform their best. They have to physically change, which takes time. Yes, these changes are usually small, but the results of the changes can be anywhere from almost nothing to huge. I remember reading an article in Stereophile about a product that took almost a month of constant, 24-7 use before it stopped changing sound.
I'm certainly no expert, and I can't cite studies, but this seems to be common knowledge within the audio community, at least from my limited exposure to it.
And from my small personal experience, I think that different components react to varying degrees to changes in the cabling. So I guess my idea of a true test is to test the cables with various components. How much can you honestly say a cable can do if you've only used it in one setup? It may make a bigger difference with another pair of speakers or amp.
In my own system, I have noticed a difference when I changed my interconnects and speaker cables. The differences were small, but to me they were there. I didn't get an extra octave lower bass or anything like that, but I think there is something to that whole "layers of gauze over the sound" stuff that I'm always reading.

[mtrycraft]

... but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in".

Does that make a difference? Evidence ?

Cables do physically change when electricity runs through them.

How so? Please expand on this assertion with hard data. Thanks.

It has been stated over and over by professional reviewers that new cables and components need time to perform their best.

And psychics talk to the dead. Astrologers predict your day and future, holistic healers will cure you. What else should I believe in?

They have to physically change, which takes time.

Why and why? Why do they have to change and why does it take time? How much time? Be very specific. Don't fudge or guess, please.


Yes, these changes are usually small,

Then it can be measured, right? Can you tell us those changed by numbers?

but the results of the changes can be anywhere from almost nothing to huge.

That is even better if it is 'huge.' Much easier to measure, right?

I remember reading an article in Stereophile about a product that took almost a month of constant, 24-7 use before it stopped changing sound.

And I remember watching John Edwards. Very convincing indeed.


I'm certainly no expert, and I can't cite studies, but this seems to be common knowledge within the audio community, at least from my limited exposure to it.


I keep asking for citations and studies too but get no responses. I wonder why it is so difficult to find such documents for those huge changes. How is the audio inductry to advance in knowledge if they cannot find out about it?
Commong knowledge in the audio community? So is creation in certain other communities.

[Rikki]

... but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in".

Does that make a difference? Evidence ?.

Yet, another urban legend. I'm sure Loch Ness or Bigfoot are the ones who originally came up with the idea of breaking in cable. But I did break in my cable based on "expert" advice.

[Rikki]

I don't wish to jump on any bandwagons or backs, but I have to wonder if either of the cables were "broken in". Cables do physically change when electricity runs through them.

Yes, I actually used the new Monster Z1 cables for three months before doing my comparison. I then took the time to disconnect them and hook the cheap wire back up. Did not sound any different to me. I played Jewel's Spirit, Johnny Cash/Willie Nelson VH1 Storytellers, Metallica's "Black" Album, and a classical cd (Haydn's String Quartet on Naxos). A wide variety of music, that are all great sounding cds with lots of different sounds and range (vocal, string percusssion).

I've got the Monster cable hooked back up just because I have them, but if I just left the cheap wire on I wouldn't hear a difference. And neither would anyone else.

[skeptic]

"Well, I can only base this on my own equipment and experiences. "Proof" to me just means I don't see any reason to spend any more money or time on cables."

This is exactly the same arguement the other side uses. They don't understand what real proof is either. I hope you never sit on a jury until you have a much better understanding of what the term proof actually means. So far, neither side has "PROVED" anything except that they can post a lot of words.

[Rikki]

The audio world is very subjective though. What sounds good to someone may not sound good to someone else. It's not clear cut like blood or DNA evidience. Since I heard no difference in the sound, I consider that proof. I would be willing to bet anything that no one else on this board could hear a difference either.

[skeptic]

Even accepting your admittedly limited experience with just a few cables, and even accepting that you are telling the truth, why should believe that your hearing or sound system is good enough to detect a difference if one exists.

Proving a negative is virtually impossible. Try to prove that god does not exist.

[happy ears]

In my limited experience with cables I have found both small change and no changes at all. In testing a pair of Monster Z1R's I found that they tended to roll off the end response slightly. This could be the speakers as I have always found them to be slightly strong on the top end. Could not notice the same problem with Monster Z2's and could not give a reason why this happened.

When making comparisons I do not use music per say but use samples of music such as glass breaking, piano note, single bass note. When I have noted changes they tend to be small, none of these day and night difference. Maybe I am getting to old and my ears are past their peak condition. I guess that applies to the rest of my body as well. They changes I have noted are small and do not believe that I would hear them comparing music as a whole. I find with music there is too much information to listen for hence why I use one instrument or note only. Like I said small changes and not always, this makes me wonder why some time I hear changes and not others, even though I can repeat the test and get the same results.

At what level of equipment can these small changes be heard I do not know. Have only preformed limited test. Now when we talk price it’s just like sports car one has to pay for small gains. Still do not think cables are worth there price, maybe if they where 10% of what they charge.

This is not proof that cables make a difference and still think it is the last thing one should look at. However I have been wrong before. For listening to music I would not worry about it, but I will still recommend Radio Shack gold plated RCA interconnects. Just one person's opinion.

[mtrycraft]

But I did break in my cable based on "expert" advice.


You need to change experts then.

[happy ears]

"You need to change experts then."

That's another one of those subjective terms again. Many people will tell you they are an expert but this is only their mind. Should have seen the hassle I had getting the local GM dealers to fix my check engine light on a one-month-old truck. 85 expert mechanics took 3 months to figure it out when one customer figured out the first time.

I consider myself a jack-of-all-trades but an expert of none. Even with my post secondary education there are many people without schooling that consider themselves to be an expert in the field that I studied. Now schooling is not an indication of intelligence but one of education. For those that put their minds and effort into something they too can learn a new trade. There is only one person that can be called the best just a fact of life but making it into the top 10% is still pretty good. Hmmm need to wait for some of those really old guys to retire so that I can move up the ladder. Don’t get me wrong there are many people experienced in fields that I know little about, I can build the computer but don’t ask me about software. Finding those that are truly brilliant in their field is always a pleasure.

The fall from stud to dud or god to dog can be fast and sudden with a loud crash at the bottom.

What is the approved cable break in procedure? Myself when it comes to breaking in new stereo equipment I use an old simple method, use it works for me. What is a true stereo expert?

Enjoy the music

[E-Stat]

What is the approved cable break in procedure? Myself when it comes to breaking in new stereo equipment I use an old simple method, use it works for me.
I think you missed the point given by our ever perceptive ditch digger. He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.

As for me, I just use the system for a while.

rw

[Rockwell]

I think you missed the point given by our ever perceptive ditch digger. He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.

As for me, I just use the system for a while.

rw

That is not the point at all. Where do you come up with this stuff? It has nothing to do with what Mtry can hear.

[E-Stat]

That is not the point at all. Where do you come up with this stuff?
For some odd reason, I read his posts. I'm guessing that his "need to change experts" comment to Rikki meant that he doesn't "believe" in break in effects at all.

rw

[happy ears]

"For some odd reason, I read his posts. I'm guessing that his "need to change experts" comment to Rikki meant that he doesn't "believe" in break in effects at all."

Anyone can call themselves an expert. However in this case Mytrcraft only says "need to change experts". This can be taken many ways, good and bad.

[Rockwell]

For some odd reason, I read his posts. I'm guessing that his "need to change experts" comment to Rikki meant that he doesn't "believe" in break in effects at all.

rw

He may not believe in cable break in, but the reason why he doesn't believe does not have to be because he can't hear it. The following three reasons are more compelling than a singular personal experience:
A) There is no scientific basis for the break in effect to exist
B) No one has demostrated that they can hear it under bias controlled conditions
C) No one has produced measurements indicating that the electrical properties of the wire change over a relatively brief time, audible or not.

[okiemax]

"Well, I can only base this on my own equipment and experiences. "Proof" to me just means I don't see any reason to spend any more money or time on cables."

This is exactly the same arguement the other side uses. They don't understand what real proof is either. I hope you never sit on a jury until you have a much better understanding of what the term proof actually means. So far, neither side has "PROVED" anything except that they can post a lot of words.

You might want Rikki on the jury for your trial if you know you are guilty or at fault.

[E-Stat]

The following three reasons are more compelling than a singular personal experience:
I would be completely in agreement with you if in fact audible cable break in effects were indeed a singular personal experience.

rw

[Mike That Likes Music]

Okay, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a believer in break-in time for both components and cables. I've read articles and discussions talking about "adding and detracting ohm resistance value to/from transformers" etc..., but I haven't the education to understand these in their entirety. My oh-so-useful-in-the-real-world musical performance education has taught me much about how to appreciate the sounds coming out of my stereo, but not so much about how it gets out of the speakers in the first place.
The main argument for believers in cable break-in as far as I've been able to glean is that electrons need to find the path of least resistance through a cable, and that they settle into a "groove" after a certain period of time. Makes sense to me. If you dump a bucket of water on your driveway, it will quickly find the path of least resistance to get downhill. And if you continually pour a fairly constant amount of water onto the same spot, it will all follow the same path and will eventually carve a permanent path for any future water to follow. Now, I know that electrons and cables are hardly akin to water and sidewalks, but does anyone else involved in this discussion think these two are analagous? Water and electrons are both physical things, and they are both travelling through physical environments. My understanding of physical law is that one object cannot travel on/through another object without changing both on a temporary and a permanent basis, small though the alterations may be. So by that premise, a signal from your amp to your speakers will be physically altered by the cable, and the signal will have a cumulative physical altering effect on the cable. Admittedly, this argument doesn't cover the actual physical measurements no-one can seem to come up with... but hey if it did, we wouldn't be hashing this out in the first place. Whatcha think?
And I do have an honest question for those of you don't think break-in occurs. I'm not trying to be flippant or to piss any of you off, but... I've been reading various audio magazines and on-line articles about cables for the last few years, and virtually every one (no, I'm not going to list them. Pick up a Stereophile or Absolute Sound. I, for one, trust that these guys know what they're talking about ) has stated that the cables did change sonically over varying periods of time. Are they all wrong that the changes actually take place? How do you back this argument up? Now, I know I haven't been reading all the available materials, and that my reading has concentrated on reviews of the products sonic performance rather than the scientific principles as to how the signal was transferred...but hey a billion smokers can't be wrong, right? :)
Mike

[Rockwell]

I would be completely in agreement with you if in fact audible cable break in effects were indeed a singular personal experience.

rw

It is a singular personal experience. You hear it so you believe it. Now, you read others agreeing with you that this is happening and does that enforce your belief? Why do you read engineers telling you "no way no how" and discount that and go with people who agree with your personal experience?

[mtrycraft]

He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.
rw

Please post my message for any such claims from me.

Besides, it is irrelevant what I can hear. But, what you claim and able to demonstrate is the issue.

[mtrycraft]

For some odd reason, I read his posts. I'm guessing that his "need to change experts" comment to Rikki meant that he doesn't "believe" in break in effects at all.

rw


Is this 'break in' a religion? One must believe? How about some evidence? Demonstrate it.

[mtrycraft]

I would be completely in agreement with you if in fact audible cable break in effects were indeed a singular personal experience.

rw


Yes, I suppose since thousands report most favorably about Sylvia Brown, John Edwards, holistic healing, homeopathic medicines, astrology, etc, it must be so.
I thought you claimed some expert scientist status for yourself? Sure fooled me with the above. Actually with most of your posts, for that matter.

[Sondek]

Please post my message for any such claims from me.

Besides, it is irrelevant what I can hear. But, what you claim and able to demonstrate is the issue.

Everything you post has a logic hole a truck can drive through. You cannot actually go to someones house, measure everything through abx/dbt or your own...um..experiance.
IOW: you have NO means whatsoever of direct disproof. All you have is words, and quotes from other sources.

Do you really think because someone wrote an article for an audio magazine that is definative catch all proof? Dream on!

What you are doing is vicariously providing armchair skepticism without you engaging in any proof.

What is the most high quality system you have owned, and for how many years?

You are applying flawed and incomplete logic and testing.

[rb122]

Besides, it is irrelevant what I can hear. But, what you claim and able to demonstrate is the issue.

True. I can't quite figure out all the posts I read that are responses to yours where instead of offering some sort of evidence of what they hear, they instead tell you that YOU can't hear. I don't ever recall you posting that YOU could not hear something or that you could...not once. So why is your hearing always called into question? Strange, indeed.

[E-Stat]

It is a singular personal experience.
Experienced by large numbers of perceptive listeners.



Why do you read engineers telling you "no way no how" and discount that and go with people who agree with your personal experience?
It all depends upon which engineers are talking. Quite a few acknowledge what they hear and aren't prima donnas in thinking they know everything. I definitely discount those who live in the mid-fi world with limited experience.

rw

[E-Stat]

Please post my message for any such claims from me.

Have you forgotten again what you've said? Too much mercury in the water from cannery row?

In a response to Rikki two days ago you said this:

"You need to change experts then."

What did you mean?

rw

[E-Stat]

Yes, I suppose since thousands report most favorably about Sylvia Brown, John Edwards, holistic healing, homeopathic medicines, astrology, etc, it must be so.
Poor straw man example. Try again.



I thought you claimed some expert scientist status for yourself?
You really do need to work on that memory deficiency.

rw

[Rockwell]

Experienced by large numbers of perceptive listeners.



It all depends upon which engineers are talking. Quite a few acknowledge what they hear and aren't prima donnas in thinking they know everything. I definitely discount those who live in the mid-fi world with limited experience.

rw

Large numbers of perceptive listeners arriving at a conclusion by flawed means doesn't amount to anything. To demonstrate that point, you only have to look at tweaks where people claim to hear the difference between types of wood or foam touching the equipment. How 'bout Jon Risch claiming to hear differences in types of wire insulation? CDs cryogenically frozen, wire elevators, Tice clocks, and on and on goes the extraordinary claims. So, you see, perceptive listeners will hear ANYTHING, and wire break-in is in the same category.

[WmAx]

IOW: you have NO means whatsoever of direct disproof. All you have is words, and quotes from other sources.
Disproof? This is not required. Formal logic dictates that you must prove something exists; not the other way. The easter bunny might be real; I mean a giant 200lb rabbit that delivers baskets with candy in them on Easter Day. Disprove my Easter Bunny.



What you are doing is vicariously providing armchair skepticism without you engaging in any proof.
Your intepretation. However, based on logic, his skepticism is warranted. Do you believe that people should start believing in everything without requiring proof? What if I claimed that a boogie monster lives under my bed who can materialilze at any time he wished. Disprove me. You can't. That's why logic dictates you must prove something is valid, not prove it's invalid.


What is the most high quality system you have owned, and for how many years?
How does this relate to the issue(s)?

-Chris

[Rockwell]

Have you forgotten again what you've said? Too much mercury in the water from cannery row?

In a response to Rikki two days ago you said this:

"You need to change experts then."

What did you mean?

rw

How are you drawing the conclusion that Mtry can't hear breakin from that statement? All he is saying is that the "experts" Rikki is relying on are not really experts and he should listen to people who know enough to not recommend audio myths.

[Rikki]

I'm new to the forum how do we declare a winner for this argument ?

I'd have no problem admitting I'm wrong, but I've seen no evidence to prove my ears are lying. Shall I submit my hearing test exam results ? My hearing is on par with a dogs....really.

[mtrycraft]

I'm new to the forum how do we declare a winner for this argument ?

I'd have no problem admitting I'm wrong, but I've seen no evidence to prove my ears are lying. Shall I submit my hearing test exam results ? My hearing is on par with a dogs....really.

There is no winning, only discussing, education, understanding, accepting, and not accepting and continue to just believe. How is this different form any other area of interest?

Hearing exam will not tell anyone how well one can detect "just noticable differences" in audio. that is the key, what small differences can one detect. It isn't that small to begin with as there is a Journal paper on that too that I have cited here before, and with music, it takes an even larger difference to detect differences.

There is no end to this as there is no end to the discussion of things based in faith.

[mtrycraft]

Experienced by large numbers of perceptive listeners.

The problem here is the value, the reliability of those perceptions that thas not been demonstrate to be of value, yet you jump on it as being a fact. Doesn't show much for you, does it? Thousands report being abducted by space aliens, and on it goes.



It all depends upon which engineers are talking. Quite a few acknowledge what they hear and aren't prima donnas in thinking they know everything. I definitely discount those who live in the mid-fi world with limited experience.

rw


Prove it then. Simple. Don't just make extraordinary claims without proving it. You cannot. Simple. Even simpler, no one can or has.

[mtrycraft]

Poor straw man example. Try again.

rw


Not at all. An appropriate corollary. You just don't like it. Understandable based on your audio faith.

[mtrycraft]

I don't ever recall you posting that YOU could not hear something or that you could...not once. So why is your hearing always called into question? Strange, indeed.

It astounds me too:)

But, when they have nothing to offer, any excuse will do for them:)

[mtrycraft]

Have you forgotten again what you've said? Too much mercury in the water from cannery row?

In a response to Rikki two days ago you said this:

"You need to change experts then."

What did you mean?

rw

You insist I have comprehension problems and you cannot figure out a simple sentence? I cannot help you.

[mtrycraft]

Everything you post has a logic hole a truck can drive through. You cannot actually go to someones house, measure everything through abx/dbt or your own...um..experiance.
IOW: you have NO means whatsoever of direct disproof. All you have is words, and quotes from other sources.

Do you really think because someone wrote an article for an audio magazine that is definative catch all proof? Dream on!

What you are doing is vicariously providing armchair skepticism without you engaging in any proof.

What is the most high quality system you have owned, and for how many years?

You are applying flawed and incomplete logic and testing.


When you have a better understanding of the issues of science, please inform us and come back to discuss the issues at hand.

[E-Stat]

You insist I have comprehension problems and you cannot figure out a simple sentence? I cannot help you.
:)

I'm not at all surprised since this is certainly not the first time you have spoken from both sides of your mouth. First you say that anyone who follows the break in procedures of an expert needs to find a new expert.

Then you say that you never said that. When I question your immediate flip flop, then you respond as you normally do when people point out your inconsistency - dodge the question.

You're a piece of work my friend !

rw

[mtrycraft]

:) Then you say that you never said that.

News to me. Must be the moon effect? Or is it the 5 planet alighnemnt?

[E-Stat]

News to me.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=24868&postcount=50

The nice thing about Alzheimers is that you meet so many new people!

rw

[rb122]

It astounds me too:)

But, when they have nothing to offer, any excuse will do for them:)

I have no issue with those that believe they hear differences in cables. More power to them. Further, I don't care if they feel the need to provide proof or not. Cables are a non-issue for me. But I will never understand the "Mtrycrafts can't hear" defense.

Poster: My Flamboyogaster interconnects sound better than zipcord
Mtrycrafts: There is no evidence that you hear anything, placebo, etc, etc
Poster: Well, you're deaf and own a boombox so what do YOU know?

Apparently, your ability to read, follow science and gather data is impugned due to your perceived lack of hearing. There's a lack of scientific evidence to support Bigfoot. So since you've never seen him, I suppose that makes you blind. You have my respect for your ability to stay calm and keep the discussion on track in the midst of all the personal attacks. I don't always agree with you and I think some personal experience in certain areas might be an ear-opener for you but then again since you can't hear, what would be the point? :)

[Monstrous Mike]

Disproof? This is not required. Formal logic dictates that you must prove something exists; not the other way. The easter bunny might be real; I mean a giant 200lb rabbit that delivers baskets with candy in them on Easter Day. Disprove my Easter Bunny.

Your intepretation. However, based on logic, his skepticism is warranted. Do you believe that people should start believing in everything without requiring proof? What if I claimed that a boogie monster lives under my bed who can materialilze at any time he wished. Disprove me. You can't. That's why logic dictates you must prove something is valid, not prove it's invalid.

How does this relate to the issue(s)?

-Chris
You are quite right, Chris.

Belief in something without proof requires faith. There's nothing wrong with having faith in something but it is just not logical to request other people to disprove your own faith.

That's why people who believe certain audio myths are equated with believing in the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, crop circles, talking to the dead, etc. All of these have a common thread and that is there is no proof of any of it so any belief in these sorts of things must be done on faith.

The fun begins when people with faith start to put forth specious arguements, psuedo-science, logic fallacies, personal experiences, etc. as "proof" of their faith.

[okiemax]

You are quite right, Chris.

Belief in something without proof requires faith. There's nothing wrong with having faith in something but it is just not logical to request other people to disprove your own faith.

That's why people who believe certain audio myths are equated with believing in the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, crop circles, talking to the dead, etc. All of these have a common thread and that is there is no proof of any of it so any belief in these sorts of things must be done on faith.

The fun begins when people with faith start to put forth specious arguements, psuedo-science, logic fallacies, personal experiences, etc. as "proof" of their faith.

Before reading your post, I didn't know hearing differences in cables means I can have conversations with the dead. Boy oh boy, am I ever glad I hear that good!

I just now tried asking George Washington and Ben Franklin a few questions. So far they haven't replied. Do you think they have been dead too long to talk, or are they just ignoring me? I'll get back to you when I hear from them. In the mean time, I'll be looking out the window for Bigfoot.

Some of the guys who post here know what other people can and can't hear without even being there. If you can do it will you let me know what George and Ben had to say in case they tried to talk to me while I was sleeping?

[Rockwell]

Before reading your post, I didn't know hearing differences in cables means I can have conversations with the dead. Boy oh boy, am I ever glad I hear that good!

I just now tried asking George Washington and Ben Franklin a few questions. So far they haven't replied. Do you think they have been dead too long to talk, or are they just ignoring me? I'll get back to you when I hear from them. In the mean time, I'll be looking out the window for Bigfoot.

Some of the guys who post here know what other people can and can't hear without even being there. If you can do it will you let me know what George and Ben had to say in case they tried to talk to me while I was sleeping?

Is that what he said? It seems that you are having reading comprehension problems...or wildy distorting his words.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

To show that I am sincere, and not just raining on the parade here do this:

Take *any* cd player, any amp, any cables, any room. Listen to a variety of string quartette and violin music on the rf-7, or any reference klipsch.

The horn aperture resonates badly, and colors the sound. You can close your eyes and clearly get a mental picture of the size, position, and shape of the horn opening.

This is inherent to the speaker.

This is unacceptable, and limits the rf series to midfi and HT. A couple of my comrades that are not into stereo at all could hear it. One guy commented on how it sounds like an intercom.

Sondek,

After I read your comments(of which I do not agree with at all) I surfed the net for reviews of this speaker that agreed with your conclusions. I could find NONE. While the RF-7 is not a perfect speaker, every review I read tended to rate them as a little above average but not perfect. I for one understand that you cannot just stick a horn loaded speaker in a room without acoustical treatment. Unlike speakers that are not horn loaded, this speaker aims a great deal of their output directly at the listening position minimizing interaction with the ceiling, and side walls. You comment regarding horn resonances was not even mentioned in any of the reviews, so I will chalked that up to your personal bias.

The RF-7 was not born in the era of two channel music. It was designed to work in conjuction with the matching center, sub, and surround speakers. In this configuration almost all the reviews said these speakers excelled.

It seems funny to me that you would use a personal opinion as a foundation to critisize someone elses personal opinion. Can you tell my what makes yours more valid than his?

[mtrycraft]

I suppose that makes you blind. :)


I could be that too :)

I have a brail keyboards :D and one that reads the screen, so I don't really need to see or hear to post here :D

[okiemax]

Is that what he said? It seems that you are having reading comprehension problems...or wildy distorting his words.


I obviously distorted Monstrous Mike's words in jest. I do not think attempts at humor are out of place on the Cable Forum. Why beat around the bus if my takeoff on his comments offend you? What's wrong with just saying "I don't like what you said," and explaining why?

[Rockwell]

I obviously distorted Monstrous Mike's words in jest. I do not think attempts at humor are out of place on the Cable Forum. Why beat around the bus if my takeoff on his comments offend you? What's wrong with just saying "I don't like what you said," and explaining why?

Nothing wrong with humor, but it's hard to tell sometimes. Try to use the smileys :)

[Monstrous Mike]

Before reading your post, I didn't know hearing differences in cables means I can have conversations with the dead. Boy oh boy, am I ever glad I hear that good!

I just now tried asking George Washington and Ben Franklin a few questions. So far they haven't replied. Do you think they have been dead too long to talk, or are they just ignoring me? I'll get back to you when I hear from them. In the mean time, I'll be looking out the window for Bigfoot.
Funny stuff, Okie.

But seriously, what do you think when somebody says they talked to their dead relatives or even Ben Franklin? It may have been very real to them. This is difficult to contradict because there can be no proof it did not occur. But in your heart, you are saying they probably had a strong memory flashback and an emotional moment and to them, for that instance in time, they felt that the dead communicated with them. I guess the problem there would be if their deceased relatives told them to buy expensive cables (see I have a sense of humour too).



Some of the guys who post here know what other people can and can't hear without even being there. If you can do it will you let me know what George and Ben had to say in case they tried to talk to me while I was sleeping?
I don't have to be there, in person with clipboard in hand, to give the opinion that if you say you saw a duck and it barked like a dog, you might have been mistaken on two counts. It might not have been a duck and it might not have sounded like a bark.

Cables may make a large difference and the dead may be able to talk to the living, I don't really know for sure. But the point is that personal observations are not proof of anything, especially considering how our observations can be, and are often, fallible.

[mtrycraft]

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=24868&postcount=50

The nice thing about Alzheimers is that you meet so many new people!

rw


You are the one who lost all sense of the posts. You need to review it from day one so you don't confuse the issues as you have.

In a response to Rikki two days ago you said this:

"You need to change experts then."

What did you mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
He can't hear any break in effects, therefore neither can you.
rw


Please post my message for any such claims from me.

Besides, it is irrelevant what I can hear. But, what you claim and able to demonstrate is the issue.


start from the beginning and review all the posts and see who is confuesd.

[Rikki]

But the point is that personal observations are not proof of anything, especially considering how our observations can be, and are often, fallible.

Personal observations can be fallible. However, personal observations can also be enough "proof" to put someone in jail for the rest of their life, if say you alone see/hear someone commit a crime and others believe you "beyond a reasonable doubt".

I'll take personal observation advice over a geek in a laboratory with a muitimeter crunching numbers anyday when it comes to spending thousands of dollars on audio equipment. If I, or a jury of my peers, can't hear the difference, then there is no difference.

And I still say wire is wire beyond a reasonable doubt. The prosecution now rests :)

[Monstrous Mike]

However, personal observations can also be enough "proof" to put someone in jail for the rest of their life, if say you alone see/hear someone commit a crime and others believe you "beyond a reasonable doubt".
Are you kidding me? One guy says A, the other says B. Why would you believe one over the other? The answer is you wouldn't. You need a hell of a lot more evidence before believing one guy over the other.

If personal observations were enough "proof" to put somebody away for life, then it would be pretty easy to lock away somebody you didn't like, now wouldn't it?

If you ever get called for jury duty, all the defendant's lawyer would have to do is dig up this thread and you be tossed in a minute.

[Mike That Likes Music]

No one wants to say anything about my last post? It was 3 days ago. I was asked to come up with data, and I cited physical law. I have yet to hear from anyone on either side of this thing. So I'll reask the question: Are cables exempt from physical law? (see my last post for my whole argument) I'd love to slice one of those things open and take a REALLY close look at the conductors, but sadly my scanning electron microscope is in the shop (having its tires rotated). :)
To those who just want to stir the pot or raise language-use issues over other's postings, please ignore this. I'm looking for a well thought out response here.
And remember, lack of proof is not disproof. 50,000 years ago, every time it thundered it was because the gods were angry. Now we have solid scientific evidence of why thunder happens. Anyone think they'll ever come up with a scientific way to end this argument?
Mike

[okiemax]

Funny stuff, Okie.

But seriously, what do you think when somebody says they talked to their dead relatives or even Ben Franklin? It may have been very real to them. This is difficult to contradict because there can be no proof it did not occur. But in your heart, you are saying they probably had a strong memory flashback and an emotional moment and to them, for that instance in time, they felt that the dead communicated with them. I guess the problem there would be if their deceased relatives told them to buy expensive cables (see I have a sense of humour too).

I don't have to be there, in person with clipboard in hand, to give the opinion that if you say you saw a duck and it barked like a dog, you might have been mistaken on two counts. It might not have been a duck and it might not have sounded like a bark.

Cables may make a large difference and the dead may be able to talk to the living, I don't really know for sure. But the point is that personal observations are not proof of anything, especially considering how our observations can be, and are often, fallible.

You choose analogies that make cable yeasayers seem ridiculous. The following would be representative: Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming to have talked with the dead. People who claim they have talked with the dead are lying or delusional. Cable yeasayers are lying or delusional.

You never choose a complimentary analogy, such as .... Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming a believe in the hereafter. Those who believe in the hereafter have high morale values. Cable yeasayers have high morale values.

How about some balance?

[Monstrous Mike]

You choose analogies that make cable yeasayers seem ridiculous. The following would be representative: Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming to have talked with the dead. People who claim they have talked with the dead are lying or delusional. Cable yeasayers are lying or delusional.

You never choose a complimentary analogy, such as .... Claiming to have heard a difference in two cables is analogous to claiming a believe in the hereafter. Those who believe in the hereafter have high morale values. Cable yeasayers have high morale values.

How about some balance?
For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts. What I don't like are guys like John Edwards who takes money from people by exploiting this unproven possibility. He has been caught many times on his method of "talking to the dead" which is really a form of hot or cold readings.

And I have never used the words lying or delusional when describing a cable believer. All I am saying is that there is no proof, senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

The only real difference between me and cable believer is that the cable believer has positively concluded that his cable has improved his system sound while I am saying let's look at all the other factors first, before reaching a conclusion.

[Rikki]

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts.
But you don't believe that personal accounts hold weight in audiophile land ? I don't get it.



senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.
Senses are not perfect. But in my test for example, I had no emotions one way or the other. If anything I wanted to hear a difference since I spent $75 on the cables. Everything in the test was equal (i.e. the music, the room accoustics, etc.). It's very simple actually, there was no difference in sound. If there was a difference I would have heard it.

[okiemax]

For the record, I do not think it is ridiculous to think someone can communicate with the dead. That is a personal or religious matter and there may be something to it, however, there is simply no evidence other than personal accounts. What I don't like are guys like John Edwards who takes money from people by exploiting this unproven possibility. He has been caught many times on his method of "talking to the dead" which is really a form of hot or cold readings.

And I have never used the words lying or delusional when describing a cable believer. All I am saying is that there is no proof, senses can be fallible, actual differences can be caused by other factors, and emotions play a large part in subjective assessments.

The only real difference between me and cable believer is that the cable believer has positively concluded that his cable has improved his system sound while I am saying let's look at all the other factors first, before reaching a conclusion.

Yes, I know you have never accused cable yeasayers of lying.I should have left "lying" out of the analogy. I thought you had implied that they are delusional, although you may not have used the word "delusional."

I cannot communicate with the dead, and doubt anyone who claims they can. However, I occasionally imagine conversations with my dead parents. Something will happen that reminds me of my Father, for example, and I will think about what he would say and what I would say. He lives on in my mind.

An individual's claim about hearing a difference in two cables can be verified through blinded testing. But verifying subjective experience with objective testing is not a common consumer practice. Why? Because people have found that relying on their senses works. Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

BTW, I agree with your post on American Splendor and Adaptation. I really enjoyed these movies.

[mtrycraft]

But verifying subjective experience with objective testing is not a common consumer practice. Why? Because people have found that relying on their senses works.


Yes, and no. Multiple senses 9in combination can confuse the issue when you are checking small differences. That is well know. Subjective experience, unchallenged, is what the marketeers are hoping for.


Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.

Because they have not been tested, or know better how your senses can mislead you in some instances. Why would the marketeer tell you this? He wants to sell more, not less.

[E-Stat]

You are the one who lost all sense of the posts. You need to review it from day one so you don't confuse the issues as you have.
Let's try something simple that will require only a yes or a no.

Based upon your experience (either personal or by way of literature), do you find evidence for the concept of wire break in effects?

Remember - just "yes" or "no". I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

rw

[mtrycraft]

Let's try something simple that will require only a yes or a no.

Based upon your experience (either personal or by way of literature), do you find evidence for the concept of wire break in effects?

Remember - just "yes" or "no". I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

rw

How is this relevant? There is no evidence.

[E-Stat]

How is this relevant? There is no evidence.
You sure have lots of trouble with simple tasks. I take that as a "no". Which is the foundation behind a number of previous posts that refer to that notion.

rw

[Monstrous Mike]

But you don't believe that personal accounts hold weight in audiophile land ? I don't get it.
I didn't say that personal accounts don't hold weight. What I am saying is that if you take 100 personal accounts, a certain percentage will be accurate, a certain percentage will be close, a certain percentage will be off a little, and a certain percentage will be right out to lunch.

What these percentages are is anybody's guess. But if you give me a personal account I have no way of knowing which category you fall into so I can't take your personal account to heart. I would expect that you feel the same way about me although when most people learn I have not heard differences in wires they automatically put me in the "out to lunch" category.



I had no emotions one way or the other.
I know a lot of you feel this way. We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. However, it has been conclusively shown that there are many factors <i> that we are not conciously aware of</i> that can influence us. That doesn't mean you can't accurately assess anything in your audio system, just that there are pitfalls that could manifest themselves without you even knowing it.

[Monstrous Mike]

I cannot communicate with the dead, and doubt anyone who claims they can. However, I occasionally imagine conversations with my dead parents. Something will happen that reminds me of my Father, for example, and I will think about what he would say and what I would say. He lives on in my mind.
I'm sorry to hear about your parents. I have both of mine and I certainly appreciate them more now then when I was a teenager. I have no problem accepting that you still have personal relationship with them through memories or even conversations. Like I said, this is a personal matter. However, if somebody like John Edwards says he is talking your parents for you, would this not annoy you?



Trying to persuade people that their senses are fallible contradicts their experience, and may be unwelcomed instead of appreciated.
Well actually, it's not the senses that are fallible. It's the interpretation of the information that the senses provide us that causes problems. I agree that this level of analysis for simple home audio enjoyment is probably overkill and most people should just buy what they can afford and be happy with the sound.

The trouble starts when people categorically state things like: "My JPS Labs speakerwires sound better than zip cord because of their proprietary crystal lattice structure, doing recommended burn in period and the mathematical analysis of Jon Risch."

[mtrycraft]

You sure have lots of trouble with simple tasks. I take that as a "no". Which is the foundation behind a number of previous posts that refer to that notion.

rw


How so? Getting a better expert is just that. Who said he had an expert to begin with?
What was his evidence? Zero.

[pctower]

I didn't say that personal accounts don't hold weight. What I am saying is that if you take 100 personal accounts, a certain percentage will be accurate, a certain percentage will be close, a certain percentage will be off a little, and a certain percentage will be right out to lunch.

What these percentages are is anybody's guess. But if you give me a personal account I have no way of knowing which category you fall into so I can't take your personal account to heart. I would expect that you feel the same way about me although when most people learn I have not heard differences in wires they automatically put me in the "out to lunch" category.



I know a lot of you feel this way. We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. However, it has been conclusively shown that there are many factors <i> that we are not conciously aware of</i> that can influence us. That doesn't mean you can't accurately assess anything in your audio system, just that there are pitfalls that could manifest themselves without you even knowing it.

"We would all like to think we approach our in home testing with a completely objective frame of mind. "

Make that "all" minus one.

I could care less if I approach home "testing" with an objective mind. The only "testing" I'm doing is what brings me pleasure. If I were focused on whether I'm "objective" or not, the pleasure would be gone. Anything that gets in the way of pleasure in my soundroom is strickly forbidden in accordance with a scrupulously enforced zero tolereance policy.

[E-Stat]

How so?
Your inability to follow a simple "yes" or "no" question. Most kindergarteners are able to do that very well.



Getting a better expert is just that. Who said he had an expert to begin with?
What was his evidence? Zero.
Why all the pussyfooting around? Why don't you simply say that you have never read of any evidence to support the notion of cable break in effects? In your experience-free world, that's all you can do anyway, isn't it? You have nothing to add to the discussion yourself. The limitation with simply quoting others is that you really never do understand the reasons why.

rw

[Ogeez]

At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth here is my 2 cents:

I spent a long time reading all your quips and quibles and in between there were references made about wires and the test that was done which started all this but I must say that the bottom line IN MY OPINION is simply put all related to your own ears, equipment, and room configuration. If you like what you hear with what you've got then who cares. If you listen to jazz, funk, R&B, Metal or Opera, each theme does what it does regardless of the equipment. If you have the money to compare cheapos with expensivos then knock yourself out. Make the conclusion yourself and enjoy the choice you make. If you do not have the money to compare then go with what your budget allows and live with the consequences. In the long run your ears, choice of tunes and your pocket book will dictate the final say so. If it's a pissing contest you are trying to win, then why are there locks on your doors? Is it not to keep people out of your sanctuary?

Thanks for the fun read guys.

:-)

[mtrycraft]

Thanks for the fun read guys.

:-)

Great, that is what it's supposed to be :)

[mtrycraft]

Your inability to follow a simple "yes" or "no" question. Most kindergarteners are able to do that very well.



Why all the pussyfooting around? Why don't you simply say that you have never read of any evidence to support the notion of cable break in effects? In your experience-free world, that's all you can do anyway, isn't it? You have nothing to add to the discussion yourself. The limitation with simply quoting others is that you really never do understand the reasons why.

rw

Nothing wrong with simple, to the point answers like 'get a better epxert' or 'get a real expert.'


Oh, I do understand the reasons why. It is you who has a difficulty.

[Rikki]

Let's try something simple that will require only a yes or a no.

Based upon your experience (either personal or by way of literature), do you find evidence for the concept of wire break in effects?

Remember - just "yes" or "no". I have every confidence in your ability to succeed.

rw
no

(small problem with your instructions, responses must be at least 5 characters on this site :) )

[E-Stat]

no

(small problem with your instructions, responses must be at least 5 characters on this site :) )
It's amazing how much misspelled ink mtry spent answering this question. While my experience is different, I applaud appreciate your concise alacrity.

rw

[Rikki]

Update:
I have some new equipment and re-did the test. My conclusion still holds true. Wire is Wire...

I’ve concluded that high end cables/speaker wire are a waste of money and does not significantly improve the sound of your system. As long as your wire has a “solid connection” meaning the wire is not broken or have crimps in it, 10 cent per foot speaker wire performs just as well as $10+ per foot wire.

I now have a Rotel RSP-1069 pre-processor and Rotel RMB-1075 5 channel amp. I've had them for several years. I took my time with the test. The Rotel equipment was a big upgrade over the Yamaha $700 receiver that I originally had and did significantly improve my sound. So yes, money spent on upgrading components is well worth it. I still have the same set of Klipsch RF-7 speakers - I still love the sound of them - especially for the price.

I tried the same test I did at the beginning of this thread. Hooked up the Monster Z1 cables that I have to the mains. I then (over several months at different times) swapped out the Monster cable with some cheap radio shack wire 16 gauge wire from a spool (cut to same length as the monster cable - 10ft). Guess what NO DIFFERENCE in sound quality.

Many of you may have much more expensive components than I do - that's fine - the same test would still hold true. Expensive wire will not improve your system. Go ahead and try it for yourself if you want to waste time/money. On second thought, please spend your money on components not wire to improve your system. I'm begging you.

P.S. The same also holds true with HDMI cable. Don't spend hundreds of dollars on cables. I'm trying to save you guys some money in these tough times.

[E-Stat]

Many of you may have much more expensive components than I do - that's fine - the same test would still hold true.
It's certainly true that comparing one flavor of zip cord to another would indeed yield similar results. Hopefully, that didn't take you eight years to ascertain!


Expensive wire will not improve your system.
So what other cables have you auditioned and in what systems?

[JohnMichael]

Rikki did not lose our number. Has your hearing remained the same over 8 years? Have your ever tried solid core or a higher quality stranded cable? I find your number and types of cables used limiting.

Welcome back!

[Poultrygeist]

Are there double blind studies to support the advantages of expensive wires?

[E-Stat]

Are there double blind studies to support the advantages of expensive wires?
According to mtry's vast references, only with mediocre cable and of course with a box that necessarily shares a common ground (to eliminate switching transients) which completely negates the test.

You end up comparing both cables to - both cables.

Parlor games are fine for some things. I'll use my senses instead.

[Rikki]

It's certainly true that comparing one flavor of zip cord to another would indeed yield similar results. Hopefully, that didn't take you eight years to ascertain!


So what other cables have you auditioned and in what systems?

What reminded me of this thread - I was at a high end stereo shop last weekend and the guy was trying to sell me a bunch of Esoteric speaker cables. I told him I wanted to hook my cheap wire up to his best system and hear the difference vs. the Esoteric wires. The salesman was unwilling to try this test. Why ? Because it would reveal the scam. Marketing people invented expensive wire not engineers.

The only thing that's changed in the 8 years since the original post is the advent of HDMI cables to handle both video and sound. That's actually been a great idea and a great technological advancement in cables. However, $100 HDMI cable works exactly the same as $10 HDMI cable. Same exact thin wire inside both products. Different HDMI specs 1.2 vs. 1.4 etc. can carry different info - so that could make a difference - but the sound and picture quality from any given 1.2 cable will always equal that of any other 1.2 cable.


Are there double blind studies to support the advantages of expensive wires?
I have never seen any. If I win the lottery, I will fly everyone on this forum to a neutral site and we can do some blind tests. Or since we're there we could just hang out, forget the cable tests, and enjoy the music since I am positive I am right.

P.S. When they cost hundreds of dollars they like to refer to it as "cable" not "wire". How dare you!

[E-Stat]

I told him I wanted to hook my cheap wire up to his best system and hear the difference vs. the Esoteric wires. The salesman was unwilling to try this test.
Good dealers will allow you to audition cables in your own system. That's how I've ended up with most of my cabling. With some Blue Jeans cable and Belden 89259 I terminated myself, I didn't bother auditioning first.


However, $100 HDMI cable works exactly the same as $10 HDMI cable. Same exact thin wire inside both products. Different HDMI specs 1.2 vs. 1.4 etc. can carry different info - so that could make a difference - but the sound and picture quality from any given 1.2 cable will always equal that of any other 1.2 cable.
Different animal altogether. Since this is a basically a network cable delivering data packets, I largely agree.

There is no potential for the time smearing experienced using high effective dielectric constant audio cabling. Shielding against RFI continues to make a difference, however, with any kind of cable to prevent interaction with surrounding components.

[JohnMichael]

What reminded me of this thread - I was at a high end stereo shop last weekend and the guy was trying to sell me a bunch of Esoteric speaker cables. I told him I wanted to hook my cheap wire up to his best system and hear the difference vs. the Esoteric wires. The salesman was unwilling to try this test. Why ? Because it would reveal the scam. Marketing people invented expensive wire not engineers.


P.S. When they cost hundreds of dollars they like to refer to it as "cable" not "wire". How dare you!



I have spent a lot of time finding the best combination of IC's and speaker cables for the most accurate sound to my ears. I am sure the dealer went to as much trouble with his state of the art system. Once you have achieved the best level of sound for your demonstration gear I can imagine why he would not welcome unfamiliar cable.

[Florian]

Hi Rikki,

if you are ever in the area of southern Germany or Switzerland i will gladly show you the difference with a double blind listening test using either of the two systems:

System 1:

Apogee Acoustics Scintilla
Lamm 2.1 Monoblocks
Silvaweld Reference Preamp

Two cables for our testing are the Magnan Reference Speaker Cables and the Alphacore Goertz Ribbon

System 2:

Apogee Acoustics Grand
CAT SL1
CAT JL 2
NAT SE2SE
Monarchy NM24
Monarchy DIP

We can do the testing using analog or digital. With blinded eyes or open, it won't matter. 4 out of 4 people hear the difference clearly. Unfortunately, my Magnan cable lost.... but not by much.

[frenchmon]

Florian....can I get that same test if I am in your area? But I believe there is a difference....I just want to listen to your system:D

[markw]

How lame is this forum that one has to go back and re-open a thread that's been dead and buried for over eight years?

Nothing new to say?

[JohnMichael]

How lame is this forum that one has to go back and re-open a thread that's been dead and buried for over eight years?

Nothing new to say?


The OP thought he had gained some new insights.

[markw]

The OP thought he had gained some new insights.But that was over eight years ago. I've got grandkids that have been born and started school in that time.

[JohnMichael]

But that was over eight years ago. I've got grandkids that have been born and started school in that time.



Yes after 8 years he bought some new equipment and used the same old wires for the same failed conclusion.

[markw]

Well, OP gave it a considred try and still came to the same conclusion. What more can be said?

I'd say eight years is a pretty good try, wouldn't you?

[RGA]

Cable debates. Geez.

Every place I've ever been to will let you take the cables home first. Even the big box chains like Best Buy and Future shop have 100% no questions asked return policies of either 14 days or 30 days on cables. Try them - perform DBTs and then return them if you don't like them or think they do anything.

Cables are glorified tone controls - what one cable does in one system may do ZILCH in another and I've used the cable logic fault numerous times.

You have a stereo system that has a turntable, CD transport, DAC, Preamplifier, Power amplifier, Loudspeakers. All form different manufacturers.

Turntable has internal wiring (called A) and let's be generous and assume the Interconnect out to the preamp is the same.

CD transport has internal wiring B

DAC has internal wiring C

Preamp has internal wiring D

Power amp has internal wiring E

Loudspeakers have internal wiring F

This system has 6 different cables (which in theory all sound different than each other)

Most audiophiles don't seem to use exactly the same interconnects and speaker wires - so let's split the difference and say they use the same Interconnects throughout (cables G) but different speaker wires (cable H)

Now we're up to 8 different sounding wires.

[As an aside this doesn't even begin to mention the mass number of audiophiles who mix and match components like tube preamps with SS power amps from designers who think the other design is wrong and these audiophiles are basically trying to press two opposed magnets together. Ie - wildly opposed "voices"]

To me two results come from this laughable mess of cables.

1) all the bloody different wires cause a reduction to the weakest link. I don't see how an expensive IC is going to fix the 3 cent per meter cheap junk wiring inside the amplifier or CD player. And 99% of all mainstream stuff uses the cheapest ass wiring that is humanly possible to use - so of course people have trouble telling ICs or speaker cables apart - assuming their was some greatness to be had in an expensive speaker cable once it hits the pennies a ton wiring inside most loudspeakers that "goodness" has become irrevocably sullied.

2) Even if all the components in the systems use high quality cables it still has 6-8 competing voicing vying to come through to the listener. Which reduces ALL cables to mere tone controls often at ludicrously expensive price points. The MIT cable that sounds better in one guys discombobulated 8 wire system may sound utterly dreadful in someone else's discombobulated 8 wire system. Then it becomes a bit of marketing and brand hype. The big fat speaker wire looks cool and carries a hefty price tag but if the components are using cheap dredge then I scratch the old noggin.

Some speaker makers are selling their own speaker cable cables like Zu presumably with their own wires inside their speakers and you can buy the exact same speaker cable and interconnect cable. Logically that makes a lot of sense.

Audio Note is the only company I am aware of where you can buy a complete stereo and pretty much get the exact same wiring from cartrdige to speaker voice coil right down tot he soldering material and even the transformer windings.

So you get 99.99% Silver Litz inside the amplifiers Cd players, turntables, cartridge wiring, to transformer windings, to outboard crossovers on the speakers hardwired right into the speaker voice coil which is also wound with the wiring and the soldering material is also 99.99% Litz and the very capacitors throughout the chain are made of silver as well as ALL connectors on all components are also silver and power chords are also 99.99% silver Litz.

The 6-8 cables(not to mention soldering materials, caps, connectors (gold plated???) and the whole weakest link factor and glorified tone control is now 1 cable made of the exact same purity and sonic purity throughout - there is no tone control.

And as great as that all is - in order to do it means you have to buy a system from them - and not just any system but one of those 6 figure jobs starting with at least a 3. eesh.

So play with the cables and buy or not but with the whole mix and match aspect of most systems you can't say much about their transferability across systems.

[Smokey]

Cable debates. Geez.

Every place I've ever been to will let you take the cables home first. Even the big box chains like Best Buy and Future shop have 100% no questions asked return policies of either 14 days or 30 days on cables. Try them - perform DBTs and then return them if you don't like them or think they do anything.

Cables are glorified tone controls - what one cable does in one system may do ZILCH in another and I've used the cable logic fault numerous times.

You have a stereo system that has a turntable, CD transport, DAC, Preamplifier, Power amplifier, Loudspeakers. All form different manufacturers.

Turntable has internal wiring (called A) and let's be generous and assume the Interconnect out to the preamp is the same.

CD transport has internal wiring B

DAC has internal wiring C

Preamp has internal wiring D

Power amp has internal wiring E

Loudspeakers have internal wiring F

This system has 6 different cables (which in theory all sound different than each other)

Most audiophiles don't seem to use exactly the same interconnects and speaker wires - so let's split the difference and say they use the same Interconnects throughout (cables G) but different speaker wires (cable H)

Now we're up to 8 different sounding wires.

[As an aside this doesn't even begin to mention the mass number of audiophiles who mix and match components like tube preamps with SS power amps from designers who think the other design is wrong and these audiophiles are basically trying to press two opposed magnets together. Ie - wildly opposed "voices"]

To me two results come from this laughable mess of cables.

1) all the bloody different wires cause a reduction to the weakest link. I don't see how an expensive IC is going to fix the 3 cent per meter cheap junk wiring inside the amplifier or CD player. And 99% of all mainstream stuff uses the cheapest ass wiring that is humanly possible to use - so of course people have trouble telling ICs or speaker cables apart - assuming their was some greatness to be had in an expensive speaker cable once it hits the pennies a ton wiring inside most loudspeakers that "goodness" has become irrevocably sullied.

2) Even if all the components in the systems use high quality cables it still has 6-8 competing voicing vying to come through to the listener. Which reduces ALL cables to mere tone controls often at ludicrously expensive price points. The MIT cable that sounds better in one guys discombobulated 8 wire system may sound utterly dreadful in someone else's discombobulated 8 wire system. Then it becomes a bit of marketing and brand hype. The big fat speaker wire looks cool and carries a hefty price tag but if the components are using cheap dredge then I scratch the old noggin.

This is a good analysis, and sadly at the same time highlight the slipery-slope and ugly side of cables having "sound" argument :)

[blackraven]

Florian, which Alpha Core cables do you have?

[Poultrygeist]

Here are some interesting sound improvement techniques. Anyone tried freezing their cables?

Free sound improving techniques (http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html)

[JohnMichael]

Florian, which Alpha Core cables do you have?


This reminds me I have not used my Alpha Core MI1 with my Krell S-300i. I was thinking about buying some MI2 because I read the highs are better. Of course both my speakers are bi-wire so I will need to check the cost. The MI1 had great bass and midrange with a dark top end but loved the midrange.

[JohnMichael]

I hooked up the AlphaCore speaker cables last night. I had last used them with the Onkyo A-9555 Class D and they were not a good match. They sing with the Krell. I had forgotten how good they are. Everything was sounding so good that I listened to music until 2:30 AM sadly I was up at 5:30 AM.

I was so impressed that I ordered a bi-wire pair. I ordered the shotgunned pair of MI1. The cables will have single pair of banana plugs at the amp end and double pairs at the speaker ends. While I was online I ordered a new pair of Micropurl IC's.

As good as the AlphaCore cables sound I look forward to the bi-wire pair and having the metal jumpers removed. Thanks Florian and blackraven for rekindling my interest in AlphaCore cables.