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Ajani
12-23-2009, 02:33 PM
This month's Stereophile had a follow up review of the Totem Forests by Erick Lichte. Erick is a new reviewer for the mag, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading his first review (a follow up review of the Musical Fidelity 550K Superchargers)...

His review of the MF 550K was well... ummm... he didn't recommend the product in any capacity:

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/907mf/index5.html

That review has been credited with killing sales of the Superchargers in North America...

His latest review of the Totem Forests is not as scathing as the MF one, but it's not an 'instant recommendation' either... and it was met with a rather nasty letter in the manufacturer's comments from Totem... The review is not online yet, but you can check out discussions of it and the letter from Totem, on the Stereophile forums:

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=79549&an=0&page=0#Post79549

For those who have never read a less than stellar review for a popular product in a North American Hi-Fi mag, I suggest you read both articles... It's great to see fresh perspective and a little controversy in Hi-Fi reviews every now and again...

recoveryone
12-23-2009, 02:40 PM
WOW I didn't know they still put out a magazine. I can't find it in any stores in my area.

harley .guy07
12-23-2009, 03:58 PM
Wow a reviewer that does not care if what the says causes a company not to pay to advertise in their mag. I remember back when Stereo Review was like that as well before the Sound and Vision Magazine started and the whole advertising buys you good reviews thing. I am not saying it did not exist back then too they just were not so damn obvious about it like they are now. I mean a speaker could be as ugly as a Ford Pinto, Sound like Sh*&, and be priced higher than hell and the magazines will still say it is a good product because the company advertises in their mag. I see right through that when it happens and I am not saying all magazines or online publications do this but it does happen and it is insultingly obvious when it does and it gives this hobby and publications about this hobby a bad name and it makes me sick when it does.

Feanor
12-23-2009, 04:22 PM
This month's Stereophile had a follow up review of the Totem Forests by Erick Lichte. Erick is a new reviewer for the mag, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading his first review (a follow up review of the Musical Fidelity 550K Superchargers)...

His review of the MF 550K was well... ummm... he didn't recommend the product in any capacity:

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/907mf/index5.html

That review has been credited with killing sales of the Superchargers in North America...

...
I'm not sure I follow. The MF 550K review seemed quite positive to me: what did I miss?

Ajani
12-23-2009, 05:25 PM
I'm not sure I follow. The MF 550K review seemed quite positive to me: what did I miss?

The last paragraph:


Musical Fidelity's 550k Supercharger is a neat idea, and I really wanted the pair of them to transcend my system's limitations. But using them either as standalone amplifiers or to Supercharge my own amp, I found their tonal balance too bright and forward of neutral to preserve the magic of the less powerful amp strapped to them, or of the recording itself. The whole point of the Supercharger is to let your system play louder than it would be able to otherwise, but turning them up to the levels suggested by Musical Fidelity made their unforgiving sound only more prominent. While the 550K Superchargers could play loud, in other important musical ways, that was exactly what they couldn't do.

He didn't recommend the product as either a Supercharger (as they were marketed) or even as a standalone amplifier... which is the exact opposite of the previous reviews of the 550K in Stereophile....

Feanor
12-23-2009, 06:22 PM
The last paragraph:

He didn't recommend the product as either a Supercharger (as they were marketed) or even as a standalone amplifier... which is the exact opposite of the previous reviews of the 550K in Stereophile....
Ah! Right you are. Comments like "bright" and "forward" wouldn't sell me an amp.

Geoffcin
12-23-2009, 07:14 PM
Ah! Right you are. Comments like "bright" and "forward" wouldn't sell me an amp.

That's the trademark of a lot of the MF amps under the Kw series. Anyone who's used one of them can tell you that they can really output power into the treble. It's just what a lot of even really good speakers can use. Maybe not the reviewer's Revels, or my Maggies, but a lot of speakers could do with a dB more energy into the top octaves. I know first hand, as right now I'm using an MF A3cr to drive my big CSW T500's in my HT setup, and the extra dB of treble energy really suits them, not to mention that the dual mono design can dump a load of current when called on. It is really all about synergy. Got a laid back speaker? A MF amp might be just the ticket.

Ajani
12-23-2009, 07:47 PM
Ah! Right you are. Comments like "bright" and "forward" wouldn't sell me an amp.

That would be bad enough if the 550K were just being sold as monoblocks, but keep in mind that the purpose of the 550K was to "supercharge" your system... so you would keep your existing low powered amp, and connect the speakers output of that amp to the inputs of the 550K, and then connect the 550k outputs to your speakers... The claim was that the 550K would preserve the sound quality of your flea-watt SET amp, while adding 550 Watts of power... So the last thing anyone thinking of buying the 550K for that purpose would want to hear, is that it will make your delicate tube amp sound "bright" and "forward"...

Geoffcin
12-24-2009, 04:42 AM
I think the whole premise is flawed from the begining. If you like the sound from 2.5w flea power amps, then your into a kind of euphony that isn't served by power, or the speakers that can use it. Any SS amp is going to sound "bright" and "forward" compared to it.

kexodusc
12-24-2009, 05:19 AM
I think the whole premise is flawed from the begining. If you like the sound from 2.5w flea power amps, then your into a kind of euphony that isn't served by power, or the speakers that can use it. Any SS amp is going to sound "bright" and "forward" compared to it.
Well said (Missed these kinds of post during your hiatus...)

As for the reviews - I can't find the comments from Totem, but I don't really think this is a big deal. If the review sort of griped over something that designer was passionate was not the case, or not fair, of course they're going to complain. And as for the reviewer, well, I kind of hate the whole process. A lot of reviewers put positive-only spins in their articles and you sort of have to read between the lines to get info out...other reviewers pick and choose a few products here and there to sacrifice so they can make a name for themselves in the review industry as a hard-ass gear-slayer, it's a cheap trick to try and establish some street cred fast. Not saying that's the case here, but I am saying how would we know?

I wouldn't make a very good reviewer. I tend to find "warm" anything boring and unrealistic so I would probably have half the audiophile world on my doorstep with torches and pitchforks.

As for Totem - they make some damn good speakers - the Rainmaker and Dreamcatcher are solid performers. The Rainmaker is scary good for the size and price. I'd put it up against my Paradigm Studio 40's in every are except bass - but my Studio 40's wouldn't sound as good in smaller room, that's for sure! The Arrow is stil competitive and sounds good. The Forest is one that I think is a good speaker, but just a tad too expensive for what it offers. Might be time for them to update their product line a bit - some of the older models have lost their competitiveness.

It doesn't help either that once upon a time Totem could export their speakers when the Canadian dollar was trading at 70 cents to the US dollar....Totem's lost 30-40% on the currency exchange since the Forest came out.

Hyfi
12-24-2009, 05:37 AM
I think it's great that someone finally gives an honest review. I used to get the mag for about 10 years and was skeptical of the fact that 99.9% of the reviews were just a bunch of ass kissing. Nobody ever said a product was crap and they would not buy it.

But, I also never give too much credit to those golden ear few that reviewed every piece of equipment with the same classical music. My hearing, likes and dislikes, are going to be way different than those getting paid to help sell gear through reviews that are more an advertisement and endorsement of a product even if it was no big deal.

Also, every product they review will sound different in your home coupled with the gear that most of us can afford. I have yet to see personal systems using vacuum cleaner hose size cabling but have heard the systems in the old Soundex.

Give this guy a raise for telling it like he heard it and not just kissing ass as usual.

Geoffcin
12-24-2009, 06:49 AM
Well said (Missed these kinds of post during your hiatus...)

As for the reviews - I can't find the comments from Totem, but I don't really think this is a big deal. If the review sort of griped over something that designer was passionate was not the case, or not fair, of course they're going to complain. And as for the reviewer, well, I kind of hate the whole process. A lot of reviewers put positive-only spins in their articles and you sort of have to read between the lines to get info out...other reviewers pick and choose a few products here and there to sacrifice so they can make a name for themselves in the review industry as a hard-ass gear-slayer, it's a cheap trick to try and establish some street cred fast. Not saying that's the case here, but I am saying how would we know?

I wouldn't make a very good reviewer. I tend to find "warm" anything boring and unrealistic so I would probably have half the audiophile world on my doorstep with torches and pitchforks.

As for Totem - they make some damn good speakers - the Rainmaker and Dreamcatcher are solid performers. The Rainmaker is scary good for the size and price. I'd put it up against my Paradigm Studio 40's in every are except bass - but my Studio 40's wouldn't sound as good in smaller room, that's for sure! The Arrow is stil competitive and sounds good. The Forest is one that I think is a good speaker, but just a tad too expensive for what it offers. Might be time for them to update their product line a bit - some of the older models have lost their competitiveness.

It doesn't help either that once upon a time Totem could export their speakers when the Canadian dollar was trading at 70 cents to the US dollar....Totem's lost 30-40% on the currency exchange since the Forest came out.


Why thank you my DIY genius friend! And you've touched about all the points regarding the Totem review perfectly. I can't agree more!

The loss of value for the US dollar, in addition to the prolonged recession has really pinched the Canadian audio manufacturing. Vince might have blown up on the reviewer (which is his right), but I think there's more there than meets the eye. With the perfect storm of economic trouble, the last thing they need is a reviewer picking on the fact that the speakers didn't ship with the sand for ballasting!?

Geoffcin
12-24-2009, 07:03 AM
I think it's great that someone finally gives an honest review. I used to get the mag for about 10 years and was skeptical of the fact that 99.9% of the reviews were just a bunch of ass kissing. Nobody ever said a product was crap and they would not buy it.

Give this guy a raise for telling it like he heard it and not just kissing ass as usual.

Very few poor products ever get reviewed so I think the occasional bad review is about all your going to get.

Stereophile has been pretty good about posting "not-so-nice reviews" but on the whole the idea is to review products that you would want to buy, not to steer you away from crap. Stereophile has a varied bunch of reviewers too, so you really gotta take it from a guy that has your tastes. I pretty much like anything that Atkinson like, but I take anything Fremer likes with a grain of salt. Other people like Fremer's taste (euphoniacs) but that's OK, audio is a big enough place for all of us. Oh, and even though I don't have Fremer's taste in audio, the guy could hear a pin drop at the crescendo of the 1812 Overture and tell you how far you dropped it. These guys didn't get their jobs caused they "kissed ass" on manufactures, they got it because they know audio and can articulate about it.

poppachubby
12-24-2009, 07:42 AM
Stereophile has a varied bunch of reviewers too, so you really gotta take it from a guy that has your tastes.

That's it in a nutshell. Unless you know the reviewer's biases and tendencies, it's really a bunch of crap. There's far too many variables to put alot of trust into a review. It's the few shadier variables that keeps me sceptical.

Bottom line is, if you are gearing up to spend thousands of dollars on a high end unit, you will be auditioning or using a more reliable source for info. I think the reviews can be helpful with a smaller decision, with less at stake.

With that in mind, reviews make for interesting reading (sometimes) and that's about it. I will make decisions based on what I know, not what someone else tells me, unless I know their preferences.

I find it funny how some guys just can't bring themselves to say "nope, don't know anything about it" or "never heard it". Instead, they will begin spouting every review they've ever read on the piece, as though it's gospel. Aside from technical specs, these are all just opinions.

Geoffcin
12-24-2009, 08:21 AM
I find it funny how some guys just can't bring themselves to say "nope, don't know anything about it" or "never heard it". Instead, they will begin spouting every review they've ever read on the piece, as though it's gospel. Aside from technical specs, these are all just opinions.

Now there's a statment that rings true!

To be honest I'm always fighting with myself about what I should comment on. I've owned a lot of gear over the years, but still I find myself wanting to comment on stuff I've never owned. As you've seen in the OB thread I was teasing the OP about the OB crowd, but really I'm very interested in the theory behind it. I've heard some OB cathedral radios and they are the bomb. Absolutely more enjoyable than any Bose wave radio could ever be.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Atwater-Kent-92-Wood-Cathedral-Tube-Radio-Sharp_W0QQitemZ380152343101QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item5882d86a3d

I've actually been thinking about making one of these myself. That would put me square in the DIY and OB crowd!

poppachubby
12-24-2009, 08:45 AM
I've actually been thinking about making one of these myself. That would put me square in the DIY and OB crowd!


I just read a review about you joining this crowd. Stereophile said it would be ok.

Yes, OB is fascinating. I think alot of people don't want to acknowledge it because in turn, you're admitting that your $2000 floorstanders are not a value. Personally, I am more excited about audio lately than I have been in some time. Actually, the last excitement "peak" was when I got my soundcard, and for $30 CDN at that!

Between the solid core cables I have been making and the tube amp, the OB/DIY horn should be the last piece of the puzzle, I hope. I really like the idea of spending my time upgrading through my own means. I think I may throw some money at the speaker issue just to get going, and then slowly build some full range horns.

It's really win/win. Infact it's win/win/win/win.....the best sound reproduction for a tube amp, for a lesser price by way of a design that I choose and build. Now THAT'S a hobby! The excitement is even distracting me from a TT upgrade, which had been on my mind fully.

Geoff, did you check these out BTW? A little off topic! Hey c'mon it's Xmas. Similar to the Tekton...http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190343220079&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

think I may get these to start. Great value.

poppachubby
12-24-2009, 08:51 AM
BTW, here's the latest version of my solid core cable.

mlsstl
12-24-2009, 08:57 AM
Reviews serve two main purposes for me.

First, they are simply general readings about a subject that interests me. That's the same motive I have for reading and participating in online audio forums. Sometimes it is just entertainment, other times I'll learn something I didn't know and still others I'll find the writer has an opinion that differs from mine. Occasionally I'll even come to the conclusion that the fellow doesn't know what he's talking about.

The second and less frequent role of a review is helping find potential candidates if I'm in the market for a new piece of equipment. This is less frequent for the simple reason that I don't switch equipment all that often. It is certainly helpful to be familiar with the writings and preferences of a reviewer, but even having prior points in common with a reviewer doesn't mean I'm willing to let him choose things for me.

The latter is important for good reason. To use speakers as an example, there are well over a thousand speaker makes and models on the market right now. It would be impossible for a person to critically audition all of them. Even people who do this for a living have models they haven't heard and many more they've heard in only a cursory manner.

It is very useful to pare that large field down to a smaller list of reasonable candidates. Sure, some of that paring can be done without reviews on simply a cost, size or appearance basis, but that still leaves a lot of prospects. Well written reviews can help a person reduce the list of candidates to a manageable level. And, at that point, what most people should do is listen for themselves.

RGA
12-24-2009, 12:59 PM
The problem with the negative review as I see it is threefold.

1) They are viewed as being more credible which is not necessarily the case. Negative is seen as objective while positive is seen as subjective. The negative review does stand out more though. Every critic likes or dislikes products. Generally magazines will send products to reviewers that the reviewer already tends to like (at least in terms of design).

2) People who want the negative review becuase it is supposedly mroe objective may not like what they read. For instance John Marks hates Magnepan loudspeakers. JM is one of the two or three main reviewers at Stereophile. You don't ever see him review them. His tastes though simply don't run to panels. So instead they give the guy who loves panels the magnepans and Quads to review. What purpose does it serve to have JM dump on a design he doesn't like? It will piss off Magnepan owners probably, and the manufacturer. The people who agree with JM about the speakers may view Stereophile as being more "objective" but see number one. He doesn't like the design and then gives it a negative review - it simply is his preference.

The Maggie owner will be far more interested in reading a panel review from Doug Schroeder of Dagogo - who has owned a lot of panel speakers - you want someone to compare "apples to apples" and a guy who already likes the sound of panel speakers in general. That reviewer can tell you the plusses and minuses of one panel at a given price level versus another.

3) Reviews of product components are in isolation - dependant on the listening environment and the associated gear. Bryston IMO sound horrific with my Audio Note J speakers - but they sound quite good on my Wharfedales. Reading between the lines of the reviews Bryston can be a mixed bag depending on the system. Stereophile also didn't rave about the Bryston 7B - I think from the same reviewer.

But here is an example of reviewer's hearing the same music in the same system with the same cd player and how differently they perceived the results. This is a review of my CD player - http://www.audiodesignguide.com/cdplayer/cd6.html

That is why no matter what the reivew positive or negative the bottom line is that you won't knwo until you listen. The review taking some heat from Stereophile however may be good for certain people - if you tend to agree with his likes/dislikes he mnay be someone to follow.

frenchmon
12-24-2009, 01:51 PM
That's it in a nutshell. Unless you know the reviewer's biases and tendencies, it's really a bunch of crap. There's far too many variables to put alot of trust into a review. It's the few shadier variables that keeps me sceptical.

Bottom line is, if you are gearing up to spend thousands of dollars on a high end unit, you will be auditioning or using a more reliable source for info. I think the reviews can be helpful with a smaller decision, with less at stake.

With that in mind, reviews make for interesting reading (sometimes) and that's about it. I will make decisions based on what I know, not what someone else tells me, unless I know their preferences.

I find it funny how some guys just can't bring themselves to say "nope, don't know anything about it" or "never heard it". Instead, they will begin spouting every review they've ever read on the piece, as though it's gospel. Aside from technical specs, these are all just opinions.

pappa-C I agree with you completely.

There are a few guys over on the Musical Fidelity Forum at HTguide forum that loves the 550k. While I do readpro- reviews I do keep it in the back of my mind that the guys doing the review may have certain biases, just as we have certain biases.

Hey this hobby is expensive and certain biases come with spending our hard earned loot. Before I bought my speakers I read all kinds of trash about them that if I would have believed what was said 100% I would never have taken the chance, but I thought I would see if the pro-reviews where true, I could send them back within the 30 days. Well the negative pro-reviews I read where nothing like the way the speakers performed. But that's not to say some guys don't know what they are talking about, because some do. I took a chance on the Analysis Plus interconnect Cables and Speaker wire from the positive pro-reviews I read. They said the cable was warm, and articulate and detailed with a great sound stage and other good stuff. This was from professional reviews. But it was the consumer reviews that sold me. It is they whom I trust more. I can get a better feel from the consumer how gear will perform. So I took the chance and found the pro reviews as well as the consumer to be correct on the A+ cable...so I trust what the consumer says about the 550K...and the best part about consumer reviews on some of these forums is that you can email them with questions about product. I've even asked a few of my buddy s here about gear and I trust what you guys have to say. I got positive feed back from, Ajani about Rotel which was correct, I got feed back form Blackraven about cables, and feed back from RR that I did not believe about the Emotiva which was correct and I was wrong, and I got feed back from Mr.Peabody. So if I have a chance of getting a review from the consumer or the pro-review I almost always take what a consumer says over the pro review. But the best review is your own.

frenchmon

kexodusc
12-24-2009, 03:06 PM
The problem with the negative review as I see it is threefold.

1) They are viewed as being more credible which is not necessarily the case. Negative is seen as objective while positive is seen as subjective. The negative review does stand out more though.

Well said...go to any web-forum and find a positive review....you'll see a few fan-boys of brand x congratulate the wise decision, but otherwise, an unremarkable thread. But say you dislike a piece of gear and you'd better be ready to fight a flame war.

The review process is complicated by more than just the gear chain too. An Audiologist acquaintance of mine once told me that the shape of a persons ears can have a profound effect on their sensitivity to certain frequencies - several dB...and that's just FR. He opined that human hearing variances would account for a bigger difference than room acoustics and even the choice between some gear. People who live and die by anechoic chambers are only considering half the equation.

Kinda makes the whole process a crapshoot unless you find a reviewer with similar preferences. Fun to read though.

RGA
12-24-2009, 10:10 PM
Kex

Quite true and the other addition to that is that preferences to what we hear and gravitate to extends with our very "taste" in music. Some people are moved toward the sound of different instruments musicians, singing voices etc. One person loves rap or metal another can only accept opera and classical while each will hate the other's taste. Music is a series of tones at different speeds and levels.

All that said, a critic can and should be able to let you know within a subgroup which is good and which is spectacular. So you find the critic who "hears it like you" and then the reviewer can be valuable to let you know what is the better buy. So if you like High Efficiency horn speakers with lower powered triode amps then the reviewer who loves that stuff may be able to tell you which is the best $1500 - $3,000 amp to look into while maybe avoid the one that is "dry or overly neutral" read "bright and annoying". Obviously if the critic BOUGHT such a system then chances are he likes it a lot more than Quad and Krell. Thus, if you love Quad chances are he's not the critic for you.

My problem is I happend to have Quad, a Tannoy Dual Concentric, Audio Note so far in my top three favorite speakers LOL. I'm becoming a speaker slut.

And it may get worse - I am going to CES in January 6-11 and I will be auditioning many new to me speakers.

Ajani
12-26-2009, 07:43 PM
With the perfect storm of economic trouble, the last thing they need is a reviewer picking on the fact that the speakers didn't ship with the sand for ballasting!?

I've agreed with just about everything you and RGA have said in this thread except that point... That is patently untrue of the reviewer's complaint...

He validly said that the speakers don't sound good without the sand... So despite what Totem says; the sand is not optional... Whereas his reference and other comparable speakers in the Totem's price range sound good without that much effort... he also seemed to think the product was due for an update from Totem... also valid considering how old Totem's products are... So the complaint is not that Totem didn't ship the products filled with sand, but why the product should need sand to sound decent in the first place...

I've heard Totem's line and while they sound good, I think they are well overdue for updating... and hopefully a less than stellar review will give their product designers a much needed kick in the @$$ and get them back to work... rather than posting crap like this on their website:


Ultra sophisticated crossover
Hard wired
Bypass capacitors
Ultra expensive
Lovingly hand-assembled
Result
Non obsolescence
Soul moving

Seriously: Non obsolescence??? How arrogant do you have to be in order to believe that your product will never be obsolete???

Ajani
12-26-2009, 07:54 PM
There are a few guys over on the Musical Fidelity Forum at HTguide forum that loves the 550k. While I do readpro- reviews I do keep it in the back of my mind that the guys doing the review may have certain biases, just as we have certain biases.

The 550K was also raved about by Hi-Fi mags around the globe... including Stereophile... in Fact John Atkinson (Stereophile's Editor) owns a pair, and was the one who recommended that Erick try them for his follow up review...

And yes, just like all of us on this site, reviewers have their own biases (likes and dislikes might be a better choice of words than biases)... So as RGA said, you have to know which reviewer's share your listening preferences when you choose what reviews to rely on...

Normally Stereophile gets the right products to the Reviewer who will most appreciate them.... But Clearly since this guy is new, they haven't quite hit the nail on the head with him... which makes for some fascinating reading in the meantime...

Ajani
12-26-2009, 11:13 PM
Reviews of product components are in isolation - dependant on the listening environment and the associated gear. Bryston IMO sound horrific with my Audio Note J speakers - but they sound quite good on my Wharfedales. Reading between the lines of the reviews Bryston can be a mixed bag depending on the system. Stereophile also didn't rave about the Bryston 7B - I think from the same reviewer.

Something I should point out is in the current issue of Stereophile, the harshest review is not the new reviewer's follow up on the Totem Forests, but is Michael Fremer's review of the Bryston 7BSST2... However, there is a remarkable amount of difference in the classy response from the Bryston CEO in the manufacturer's comments versus the response from Totem....

Ajani
12-27-2009, 08:01 AM
But it was the consumer reviews that sold me. It is they whom I trust more. I can get a better feel from the consumer how gear will perform.
.................................................. ...........................................
So if I have a chance of getting a review from the consumer or the pro-review I almost always take what a consumer says over the pro review. But the best review is your own.

I can't say I agree with that... it reminds me of a recent post in the WHF forums where one of the forum members says he no longer gets excited by products raved about by forum members, since every time he auditions one of those products he finds them average at best...

Just like with pro reviews, consumer reviews are only really useful if you have similar listening preferences (and equipment/room acoustics) as the reviewer...

All reviews whether pro or consumer should be used as a helpful way of identifying products that you should audition... Never rush out and buy products based solely on reviews (unless you have an option to return them or have no other choice)...

My first real Hi-Fi setup (NAD CD & Integrated Amp with Mission Towers) was raved about by various Hi-Fi mags... and I bought it after a very brief audition based really on the strength of the reviews... While it never sounded bad at anytime and did a lot of 'Hi-Fi' stuff correctly, I found it booooooring and soon lost interest in listening to music on it...

My current setup is comprised of highly rated gear on the pro side, but I've seen very few persons who have/use my particular combination... and in fact, many persons (some who have never tried it) claimed on forums that it would sound bright and overly analytical... Had I followed that advice, I would have missed out greatly...

But of course, you might hear my first Hi-Fi setup and think it sounds brilliant... then hear my current one and think it sounds "bright and overly analytical"...

frenchmon
12-27-2009, 02:23 PM
I can't say I agree with that... it reminds me of a recent post in the WHF forums where one of the forum members says he no longer gets excited by products raved about by forum members, since every time he auditions one of those products he finds them average at best...

Yes I do trust the consumer more than the pro. But one has to learn to discern what level of consumer is giving the opinion of the product, and its easy to distinguish from someone who has been in the hobby for a while and someone who is new at the hobby. Some know what to listen for in a product and can describe what they hear and feel and some just don't have the skill level to do it. It is from this discernment that I make a judgment call on the consumers opinion.


Just like with pro reviews, consumer reviews are only really useful if you have similar listening preferences (and equipment/room acoustics) as the reviewer...

True about the usefulness, but I'm more concerned with the performance of the product and how it behaves... not really into the room acoustics of the review because of knowing the characteristics of my two channel listening room . I listened to the Monitor Audio RS6 and the new Paradigm Studio 6, and to my surprise both speakers sounded similar with the MA bigger in bottom end and the Studio 6 a little more detailed in the mids with a smoother tweet . All the while I could determine how both would perform in my two channel room.


All reviews whether pro or consumer should be used as a helpful way of identifying products that you should audition... Never rush out and buy products based solely on reviews (unless you have an option to return them or have no other choice)...

Agreed, and I always make sure there is a return path, but with my Analysis Plus cable and speaker wire, I got it below retail cost from a local retailer who has no over head cost due to the fact he closed his store and sells out of his home, so no returns on cable of any sorts...his other gear is a different story. But the pro and consumer reviews where pretty much in harmony on the Analysis Plus cable. So I felt it was a safe buy.


My first real Hi-Fi setup (NAD CD & Integrated Amp with Mission Towers) was raved about by various Hi-Fi mags... and I bought it after a very brief audition based really on the strength of the reviews... While it never sounded bad at anytime and did a lot of 'Hi-Fi' stuff correctly, I found it booooooring and soon lost interest in listening to music on it...

Sounds like a learning experience...we all go through some sort of learning curve.


My current setup is comprised of highly rated gear on the pro side, but I've seen very few persons who have/use my particular combination... and in fact, many persons (some who have never tried it) claimed on forums that it would sound bright and overly analytical... Had I followed that advice, I would have missed out greatly...

But of course, you might hear my first Hi-Fi setup and think it sounds brilliant... then hear my current one and think it sounds "bright and overly analytical"...

Ahhh Ajani my friend. That's part of the fun of this hobby. Picking your own pieces to get the sound you want. Most would think my system sounds bright because of what others have said about Rotel and Canton speakers. But they are not inherently bright....throw in in warm cable and the Xray and its sorta on the warm and detailed side of things. I too don't know any one with the combination of gear that I have. Now others may not like the sound of my gear either, but it reaches into my soul and makes me feel good...I love passionate music. This hobby is very personal.....You build your system to make it sound the way you want it to sound ...and we keep tweaking and adding and discarding till we get there. Mine is set for now, and I love it...it has become a part of me.

frenchmon

Ajani
12-27-2009, 04:50 PM
Yes I do trust the consumer more than the pro. But one has to learn to discern what level of consumer is giving the opinion of the product, and its easy to distinguish from someone who has been in the hobby for a while and someone who is new at the hobby. Some know what to listen for in a product and can describe what they hear and feel and some just don't have the skill level to do it. It is from this discernment that I make a judgment call on the consumers opinion.

I don't think we have any disagreement on the other points, but I don't see why this one is any different with consumer versus pro reviews... If what you are looking for is an accurate description of the sound, rather than a judgement on whether you should buy the product (based on the reviewer's preference) then pro reviews can do a great job of that... For example, MF's review of the Bryston Amp this month gave a very detailed review of the amp... and regardless of his overall opinion, someone should be able to determine the characteristics of the Bryston from the review... All you need to do is ignore the overall verdict of "run out and buy one now" or "I preferred X brand" and look at the description of the sound... That's how I came to purchase my Benchmark and AKGs in the first place (as I was not able to audition before hand)... I read enough pro reviews to get a real idea of the sound of the products (since that description is 'normally' fairly consistent, regardless of whether the reviewer loved or bashed the product)...

Ajani
12-27-2009, 07:45 PM
A lot of reviewers put positive-only spins in their articles and you sort of have to read between the lines to get info out...other reviewers pick and choose a few products here and there to sacrifice so they can make a name for themselves in the review industry as a hard-ass gear-slayer, it's a cheap trick to try and establish some street cred fast. Not saying that's the case here, but I am saying how would we know?

Why that 'cheap trick' can work so well is because for many Audiophiles, dismissing reviews as being just the result of advertising bribery, is a medal of honor... I find it sad how many Audiophiles would never even read a review in a major mag, but mouth off opinions about how "worthless" reviews are...

I think the best way to combat both "read between the lines reviews" and "hard-ass gear-slayer reviews" is to educate more audiophiles about the correct way to use, and not use reviews...

Reviews, both the subject aspects and the technical measurements, can be of real use to any audiophile, as long as you don't make them a substitute for your own auditioning...

kexodusc
12-28-2009, 03:45 AM
Why that 'cheap trick' can work so well is because for many Audiophiles, dismissing reviews as being just the result of advertising bribery, is a medal of honor... I find it sad how many Audiophiles would never even read a review in a major mag, but mouth off opinions about how "worthless" reviews are...

I think the best way to combat both "read between the lines reviews" and "hard-ass gear-slayer reviews" is to educate more audiophiles about the correct way to use, and not use reviews...

Reviews, both the subject aspects and the technical measurements, can be of real use to any audiophile, as long as you don't make them a substitute for your own auditioning...
Yeah, they can be of use for sure. I usually learn about gear in magazine reviews. If a piece really sparks my curiosity I usually follow up with some consumer review searches, then an in-store audition.

For the most part, I find reviews to be 3 parts entertainment, 1 part information now. Some of the measurement data is valuable, and opinions of one person, possibly in comparison to that reviewer's reference gear, have some value, too.

RGA
12-28-2009, 02:18 PM
Why that 'cheap trick' can work so well is because for many Audiophiles, dismissing reviews as being just the result of advertising bribery, is a medal of honor... I find it sad how many Audiophiles would never even read a review in a major mag, but mouth off opinions about how "worthless" reviews are...

I think the best way to combat both "read between the lines reviews" and "hard-ass gear-slayer reviews" is to educate more audiophiles about the correct way to use, and not use reviews...

Reviews, both the subject aspects and the technical measurements, can be of real use to any audiophile, as long as you don't make them a substitute for your own auditioning...

As John Marks said recently on Audio Asylum - there is no bribary - reviewers can get discounts on gear - usually at manufacturer cost if they want it - but consider that that applies to ALL manufacturers - everything is still at a level playing field - in other words even if I could get a $5k retail amp for $1500 that is true for pretty much all $5k amps. Secondly, once the product is used by the reviewer it can no longer be sold as a "new" item so it is now "used" - what is the manufacturer going to do with it?

And even then there are often stipulations that the manufacturer would want if a reviewer did buy the unit - like not allowing the reviewer to sell it for a year to hurt resale etc. Now some reviewers may in fact be taking money - but I seriously doubt it. Why? Because most stuff is actually pretty good - good enough to be able to find someone who will Like it and positively review it.

poppachubby
12-28-2009, 03:10 PM
As John Marks said recently on Audio Asylum - there is no bribary - reviewers can get discounts on gear - usually at manufacturer cost if they want it - but consider that that applies to ALL manufacturers - everything is still at a level playing field - in other words even if I could get a $5k retail amp for $1500 that is true for pretty much all $5k amps. Secondly, once the product is used by the reviewer it can no longer be sold as a "new" item so it is now "used" - what is the manufacturer going to do with it?

And even then there are often stipulations that the manufacturer would want if a reviewer did buy the unit - like not allowing the reviewer to sell it for a year to hurt resale etc. Now some reviewers may in fact be taking money - but I seriously doubt it. Why? Because most stuff is actually pretty good - good enough to be able to find someone who will Like it and positively review it.

I've heard that all reviewers big and small attend an annual, secret conference deep in the Rocky mountains. Dressed in black robes, they are all taught this mantra that RGA has uttered on this post. LOL.

If there was bribery, I would think it would come in the form of scale. More infamous and trusted the reviewer, bigger the "bribe".

I know the instrument world operates like this, at several levels of endorsement. The little and barely known guy might get a guitar at cost for lending his name. Eddie Van Halen would get squillions of dollars, free merch, limos, coke, whores, etc.

Personally, I'm not too paranoid. It comes down to bias and opinion for me. I still read reviews and watch for new and interesting products. However, just watching the boards here and at AA is helpful too.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-28-2009, 03:49 PM
Reading this was quite refreshing. I am reminded of a very good AND brutally honest reviewer for the hometheater magazine Widescreen Review. Richard Hardesty is a analytical and profoundly thorough reviewer who had no problem telling high end speaker designers that their speakers look good, but do not sound very good. He used measurements to accompany what he heard in his listening room. After pissing off several of Widescreen Reviews advertisers, he was asked to toned down and de-emphasize the negative things, and play up the good things. He refused, and end up leaving Widescreen Review. It took years for that rag to make up for his loss.

Ajani
12-28-2009, 03:52 PM
As John Marks said recently on Audio Asylum - there is no bribary - reviewers can get discounts on gear - usually at manufacturer cost if they want it - but consider that that applies to ALL manufacturers - everything is still at a level playing field - in other words even if I could get a $5k retail amp for $1500 that is true for pretty much all $5k amps. Secondly, once the product is used by the reviewer it can no longer be sold as a "new" item so it is now "used" - what is the manufacturer going to do with it?

Like you, I just don't see any great reason for reviewers to take bribes, or any evidence of it either... But that claim is still preached like Gospel, by so many persons who don't even read reviews... Persons who have never even had a discussion with a reviewer on a forum or at trade show etc, but somehow think they have 'inside knowledge' of the workings of the industry....


And even then there are often stipulations that the manufacturer would want if a reviewer did buy the unit - like not allowing the reviewer to sell it for a year to hurt resale etc. Now some reviewers may in fact be taking money - but I seriously doubt it. Why? Because most stuff is actually pretty good - good enough to be able to find someone who will Like it and positively review it.

Yep... I'm sure that many of the active members on this site would all be accused of taking bribes if we were reviewers, just because of the raves we'd give of favorite brands... Mr. Peabody for his love of Conrad Johnson & Dynaudio, me for Revel and Monitor Audio, E-Stat for those Soundlabs, Feanor, and Geoffcin for Maggies, Blackraven for Maggies and Van Alstine, Pix for B&W, Kex for Emotiva, etc... Just about any brand has loyal followers...

frenchmon
12-28-2009, 04:06 PM
I don't think we have any disagreement on the other points, but I don't see why this one is any different with consumer versus pro reviews... If what you are looking for is an accurate description of the sound, rather than a judgement on whether you should buy the product (based on the reviewer's preference) then pro reviews can do a great job of that... For example, MF's review of the Bryston Amp this month gave a very detailed review of the amp... and regardless of his overall opinion, someone should be able to determine the characteristics of the Bryston from the review... All you need to do is ignore the overall verdict of "run out and buy one now" or "I preferred X brand" and look at the description of the sound... That's how I came to purchase my Benchmark and AKGs in the first place (as I was not able to audition before hand)... I read enough pro reviews to get a real idea of the sound of the products (since that description is 'normally' fairly consistent, regardless of whether the reviewer loved or bashed the product)...

Ajani...lets just say the consumer is doing it as a passion rather than a pay check. I hope I haven't miss led you...I do take into consideration the pro's but kindly notice I did say I trust the consumer more . The pro's help sell magazines, so its possible that somethings have been fudged...I'm just say-in.

frenchmon

RGA
12-28-2009, 04:14 PM
poppachubby

Ultimately you have to ask the main reason why a company wants something reviewed. Answer - advertising.

There is no way around the fact that there is a conflict of interest at the outset. The magazine needs advertising dollars and to get it they offer the magazine "reviews" of their products. Presumably a good review is needed or the manufacturer won't send products (without products the reviewer has nothing to review) and if it is a sales magazine then they have ntohing to sell.

Also, if you're a magazine known for negative reviews like UHF then many companies won't send stuff to the magazine. B&W and Paradigm for instance are big enough not to want to RISK a negative review - they want sure things. One of the brit magazines gave Paradigm a 2 out of 5 rating and a Bryston Integrated amp a 3 out of 5 rating. That is very rare to see something get less than 4.

When I review stuff I try to see what the target market is - I reviewed a Trends headphone amp that another online magazine reviewed rather harshly. I felt the other magazine was quite unfair to it because they were comparing it to headphone amps at double or more the price and not looking at it as a travel unit for computers which to me is what it is aiming for. It should not be better than headphone amps at twice the price - or I should say headphone amps at twice the price ought to be better - they are after all twice the price.

Stereophile is often accused of bias towards advertising but case in point - they have been rather negative now on Bryston, Musical Fidelity, and Totem. All advertisers. Art Dudley bought Audio Note AN E loudspeakers he loved them so much they replaced his Quad panels and Lowther single drivers in his main system - Audio Note doesn't advertise. In fact 40% of the stuff that Stereophile recommends are not advertisers in their magazine.

While I do not give negative reviews - or have not - it's because I really don't want to spend 2-3months listening to something that stinks. I would rather tell you about good stuff that is maybe a little off the radar. Being one of the few Canadian critics I would prefer auditioning less known Canadian Companies - I was the first reviewer to review Grant Fidelity and I think the stuff is very inexpensive for the high quality sound and build on tap. I don't own anything from them and it has actually cost me money to review the stuff with drviing etc. The Audio Note stuff I owned before becoming a reviewer and paid retail.

Trends amp I shipped to another magazine who will review them.

Gee I\m not doing so well out of this. Going to Vegas - 100% on my dime. Sheesh I need an agent or something. I do it because I enjoy doing it - it's a hobby and a passion - I would hope that other critics do it for those reasons. And thinking over items at cost. Really if you buy "used" that will be lower than a new item at cost. Soundhounds in Victoria just sold A McIntosh MA7000 amplifier for $2k Canadian - new list is $8800 - a reviewer price would probably be over $3k (I'm guessing - could be $5-6k) - it was in mint shape.

Granted I have not been a reviewer that long so perhaps I am incredibly naive to what is going on - but when I look at most reviewer's stereos it's not like they're that costly. A lot of readers have pricier gear than even the big guys at Stereophile. Fred Crowder of Dagogo is probably too rich to be bought off - he owns $192,000.00 Acapella Triolons before ever becoming a critic. That guy is not going to be swayed by a free dinner or some cables.

Of course guys like Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic are crooks that give the audio press a bad name - but what can you do. They're out there.

poppachubby
12-28-2009, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the reply Rich. As always, very informative. I know nothing about the reviewer "world" except that yes, it seems to be hobbyists in these roles. I thoroughly enjoyed your reviews at Dagogo, they seemed sincere and forthright.

My last post was more joke than anything else, I'm sure you sensed that.

Ajani
12-28-2009, 05:52 PM
RGA:

One of the best points I've read in favor of why there should not be too many negative reviews, is from your staff profile on Dagogo:


Two people can listen to the same stereo of rap music, one person will love the sound and will be dancing around the room grooving to the beat, while the second person will run screaming from the room as if his or her ear was punctured by a dentist’s drill.

If I am the second person in this example it would make little sense for me to be reviewing rap music because it would come from a very jaded perspective. The rap lover would be able to better point out the strengths and weaknesses of the differing rap artists. Likewise, a panel speaker lover would be better able to tell you which panel loudspeakers are the best choices than the reviewer who loves horns and dynamic driver speakers and doesn’t truly care for panels.

I 100% agree with that point... If I don't like Dynaudio speakers, then what would be gained from having me review Dynaudio? Better to let a Dynaudio expert like Mr. Peabody do the review...



BTW, you need to update the link in your signature as it takes you to the Dagogo home page. Your page is:

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Staff.asp?hStaff=10

dwayne.aycock
12-28-2009, 06:29 PM
When I am evaluating a peice of equipment or recoeding, I try to always remember the reason I became an audiophile in the first place. We are all after the persuit of the live performance. Back in the day, the EQ was used to overcome speaker and room limitations. DACs were intended to smooth out the square wave of the digital signal and recreate the nuances and smoothness of the analog signal, without the hiss. Just sit in the sweet spot, close your eyes, listen, listen, listen. If you feel like the musicians are right there in the room with you, then you have confirmed the reason you are an audiophile too. I think the best evaluations of any equipment or recording is based on the combination of amps, wires, speakers, recordings, room, humidity.....the list can go on and on. In the end, what is best is actually what is best for you and your listening habits and budget. High dollar does not always equal high quality.

Geoffcin
12-28-2009, 06:42 PM
RGA:


I 100% agree with that point... If I don't like Dynaudio speakers, then what would be gained from having me review Dynaudio? Better to let a Dynaudio expert like Mr. Peabody do the review...



Well that's one of the more absurd things you've posited so far. Dynaudio is a BRAND of speaker, not a category. The whole idea of reviewing a product is to review it against other products of similar build and function.

Now, if you were to say that Mr Peabody likes and is deeply knowledgeable about full range towers, and then finds the Dynaudio Contour S5.4 to be one the best that he's ever heard, that is something I would take notice of as a good review. But to say someone should review a product just because he's a fanboy of the brand is absolutely wrong.

Ajani
12-28-2009, 07:45 PM
Well that's one of the more absurd things you've posited so far.

One of? I guess I get more fans on this site everyday...


Dynaudio is a BRAND of speaker, not a category. The whole idea of reviewing a product is to review it against other products of similar build and function.

Now, if you were to say that Mr Peabody likes and is deeply knowledgeable about full range towers, and then finds the Dynaudio Contour S5.4 to be one the best that he's ever heard, that is something I would take notice of as a good review. But to say someone should review a product just because he's a fanboy of the brand is absolutely wrong.

Hmmm... I suppose my point was somewhat lost.... It's less about Dynaudio as a brand, than the kind of sound.... as all Full Range Towers do not sound alike or even similar.... My point is really that there is little to be gained from having someone who hates the sound of particular categories/brands of products doing reviews of those items... Put it this way: If I love Bright Solid State Gear, then is there much benefit in me reviewing neutral to slightly rolled off treble gear? It's not really about having an ultra fanboy do the review, but at least someone who is likely to appreciate the type of sound the product produces...

RGA
12-28-2009, 09:31 PM
I wonder what the thought would be of someone who generally doesn't like a particular "type of" speaker design but then hears one that truly impresses him. For instance a panel fan who auditions a particular boxed speakers and raves about them to the point of buying them himself and substiting his panels? Or the other way around.

atomicAdam
12-29-2009, 12:16 AM
Well that's one of the more absurd things you've posited so far. Dynaudio is a BRAND of speaker, not a category. The whole idea of reviewing a product is to review it against other products of similar build and function.

Now, if you were to say that Mr Peabody likes and is deeply knowledgeable about full range towers, and then finds the Dynaudio Contour S5.4 to be one the best that he's ever heard, that is something I would take notice of as a good review. But to say someone should review a product just because he's a fanboy of the brand is absolutely wrong.


Geoffcin, I don't think it is wrong to compare different speakers within a brand. It is perfectly reasonable, if you know the line up like the back of your hand, you know the history well, to review a floorstander A vs. floorstander B, or new Bookshelf A vs. 3 year old design Bookshelf B speaker within a companies line up. There is so much that could go right or wrong. Maybe the company has 12 products but 1 is an out standing 1 hit wonder. Or maybe they make a new bookshelf, price it too high, and it just doesn't really match their history or sound. It seems perfectly reasonable to me.

atomicAdam
12-29-2009, 12:30 AM
My goal in reviewing is to stay away from words like good or bad and comparing product a vs product b unless just comparing different sonic qualities. There is no right or wrong in this game. And there certainly should be no aim to reproduce "live sound".

One of the problems I'm finding is that I like different sounds for different types of music.

I like thick, laid back, warm, smooth highs, detailed, dynamic sound for bar room jazz, quartet jazz, vocals like Etta James or Leonard Cohen. Indie music such as Godspeed You Black Emperor or Broken Social Scene needs to be thick, detailed, heavy bass, big sound stage and a bit of punch. For Rock and Techno I'm really drawn to the punch and stabbing of a sharp kick and aggressive, forward, solid state amp clarity and excitedness really gets me going, but I want something that also handle the low points well and can offer a hell of a dynamic whoop when it needs to.

I enjoy learning what each piece of equipment matches what I like in each style of music.

I don't mean to down play any reviewer, but one thing that hasn't been brought up yet in this thread are reviewers who only listen to 1 or 2 similar styles of music. That to me, is really selling the reader short.

Ajani
12-29-2009, 05:28 AM
My goal in reviewing is to stay away from words like good or bad and comparing product a vs product b unless just comparing different sonic qualities. There is no right or wrong in this game.

I agree... since most of this really is just subjective, there is no point in me saying that the Monitor Audio RX6 is a good $1.2K Speaker, while the Magnepan MG12 is a bad $1.2K Speaker.... As obviously that is based solely on my own preferences, and many persons would strongly disagree with my conclusion....


And there certainly should be no aim to reproduce "live sound".

Also agreed... I believe that one of the great myths of High-End is that the goal is to reproduce "live sound".... That may apply to some recordings of live performances, but considering how many recordings are totally manufactured and polished in a studio, I don't see how anyone can expect to get a reproduction of a live sound from a non-live (dead?) performance...


One of the problems I'm finding is that I like different sounds for different types of music.

I like thick, laid back, warm, smooth highs, detailed, dynamic sound for bar room jazz, quartet jazz, vocals like Etta James or Leonard Cohen. Indie music such as Godspeed You Black Emperor or Broken Social Scene needs to be thick, detailed, heavy bass, big sound stage and a bit of punch. For Rock and Techno I'm really drawn to the punch and stabbing of a sharp kick and aggressive, forward, solid state amp clarity and excitedness really gets me going, but I want something that also handle the low points well and can offer a hell of a dynamic whoop when it needs to.

I enjoy learning what each piece of equipment matches what I like in each style of music.

I find that persons with wider ranging musical tastes often appreciate more that one category/brand of product.... I listen to just about any genre of music and so I am able to find songs I like that fit just about every speaker I've auditioned (the only exception being the MG12 - but I suspect that if I had enough recordings on me, I'd find the ones that show me what those speakers are capable of)...



I don't mean to down play any reviewer, but one thing that hasn't been brought up yet in this thread are reviewers who only listen to 1 or 2 similar styles of music. That to me, is really selling the reader short.

Well yes and no... it depends on who is reading the review... there are many persons on this site who listen to 1 or 2 similar styles of music... The key is to know what music and category/brand of equipment a reviewer likes, and then determining how much weight to give their review...

A magazine like What Hi-Fi? focuses on all-rounders (products that are good with any kind of music)... which is an admirable goal, and generally means that most persons should be able to enjoy products they give 5 stars to... BUT, as many persons have found out, something that is competent at all genres may not move you the way a product that specializes in the 1 or 2 genres you like, would...

Geoffcin
12-29-2009, 08:44 AM
Geoffcin, I don't think it is wrong to compare different speakers within a brand. It is perfectly reasonable, if you know the line up like the back of your hand, you know the history well, to review a floorstander A vs. floorstander B, or new Bookshelf A vs. 3 year old design Bookshelf B speaker within a companies line up. There is so much that could go right or wrong. Maybe the company has 12 products but 1 is an out standing 1 hit wonder. Or maybe they make a new bookshelf, price it too high, and it just doesn't really match their history or sound. It seems perfectly reasonable to me.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with comparing a manufacturers speakers across the line, but if we're talking about a quality review of the speaker (or any product for that matter) it should be judged against it's direct competition. This is something that a fan of a particular brand will have trouble doing, even though he may be very qualified to tell the nuances between speakers in the one brand.

Now I'm not saying that just because you've found one brand to be great that you can't review it properly, just that to be objective (or as objective as you can be) it must include some reference against another brand, preferably one that's no so esoteric that it can't be can be heard by a majority of people interested in the review.

So, if Mr Peabody is an "expert" on Dynaudio and tells me that he thinks the Contour S 5.4 is a great speaker, an even better speaker than the Totem Wind (and articulates it in a meaningful way), but that HE would rather get Contour 3.4 because it's a much better buy all around, and even sounds BETTER hooked up to anything less than mega-buck amplification than the 5.4, then I'm listening to what he says with both ears.

frenchmon
12-29-2009, 10:27 AM
And there certainly should be no aim to reproduce "live sound".

To be honest....I don't like overly polished studio music either. It becomes more about the studio mixing and overlaying of tracs more that the craft of the performer...im just sayin.

And there are many live recordings that just simply stink. Right now I'm listening to a Diana Krall SACD (The Girl in The Other Room) recorded in a studio that has been mixed but its still has the feeling of being live as if I where in a club listening to her. I attribute that to the gear being able to reproduce it the way it was recorded. That is what I like, and I look for recordings that have that ability.

I also have a SACD's from Chesky Records. They even tell you they don't record in studios. They say they document the sound of musicians performing in natural acoustic settings such as churches, music halls and small clubs. The reason being is they say, these spaces sound beautiful and they prefer the natural reverberation over even the best digital processors. They say they go to these places a day before the musicians arrive and set up all equipment so as to have all the gear and equipment warmed up when they start. They dont use closed mikes either....they use one special microphone that records the full 360 degree sound field of the musicians and the recording venue's acoustic space. Chesky Records always record their musicians live (no audience) and never overdub vocals or instruments. (no proecessing at all) All musicians are playing together feeding off of each other. The microphone is located in the front middle of the band as they play and recorded. This is truly a live recording. If played back on a good two channel system, you can tell where every musician is standing, and if you have a person playing a sax or another instrument while walking around the stage, you can tell he is moving around by the instuments sound.

Now to just say liveas if I was sitting in Bush Stadium listing to a live concert with 50 thousand screaming fans would be totally ridiculous...I don't even go to concerts like that any more seeing I don't enjoy that any more and I sure as heck don't want my gear trying to reproduce such a sound unless it was a live recording of the sort. I've been to club concerts in small settings where the music was just fabulous and its possible to get that same feel from your gear and many do shoot for that...nothing wrong with that, just shows a person wants good stuff and it shows the ability and good craftmanship of the manufacturer. Mr Peabodys Conrad Johnsons tubes also gave the feeling as if I was at a club concert especially when he Played that one Alisha Keys CD. That was about the best presentation I've heard that sounded as if I was in the front row.


Now speaking of live recordings in a small setting that sucked played back through my 2 channel, I've got Brad Mehldau Trio Live at the Village Vanguard that's just a terrible recording in my estimation. There is no sweet spot when listening....the piano comes out of the left speaker only and the acoustic bass and drums out the right speaker only with nothing in between. I spent $20 bucks on that CD and it just stinks.

So I guess the mark of a good system is the ability to reproduce the music as it was recorded,and its possible to get that live feel. Some do a better job of doing this better than others as seen with Mr.Peabodys Conrad Johnson/T+A/Dynaudio system.

fenchmon

Ajani
12-29-2009, 11:49 AM
So I guess the mark of a good system is the ability to reproduce the music as it was recorded,and its possible to get that live feel.

Exactly.... If the music was processed then it should sound processed... If it was recorded live in a church/concert hall then it should sound like it was recorded at such a venue...

RGA
12-29-2009, 02:04 PM
I subscribe to the notion that accuracy in an absolute sense is unknowable - there is no frame of reference with which to compare - all there are are some faulty and highly imcomplete measurements that people derive based on preference. Peter Qvortrup's elephant analogy in the other thread is correct that we are working backwards from very little information.

Leonard Norwitz a classical composer reviewer and a long time Quad owner and AN distributor and now reviewer for enjoythemusic wrote Comparison by Contrast and I think it's largely correct - even though it won't yield what is most accurate either it will get you there better in my view. And a speaker that isn't better at being an allrounder is hardly more accurate though it still may be more pleasing. I find that number 6 is the failing of most supposed high end speakers. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0601/audiohell.htm

Geoffcin
12-29-2009, 02:36 PM
And there are many live recordings that just simply stink. Right now I'm listening to a Diana Krall SACD (The Girl in The Other Room) recorded in a studio that has been mixed but its still has the feeling of being live as if I where in a club listening to her. I attribute that to the gear being able to reproduce it the way it was recorded. That is what I like, and I look for recordings that have that ability.


Actually you can attribute that to Diana, who has NEVER let herself be poorly recorded. She's actually quite a legend in that respect, absolutely demanding only the best when she's in session. Shows too eh?

atomicAdam
12-29-2009, 02:53 PM
Exactly.... If the music was processed then it should sound processed... If it was recorded live in a church/concert hall then it should sound like it was recorded at such a venue...


Actually, when recorded in a church it should sound like it was recorded in a church, not like you are actually in a church.

Remember, even in these live settings, mics, chords, mixers, engineering, mastering, and transferring all effect the information on that CD/vinyl ever before it goes into your system. You aren't actually hearing what was played in that church perfectly.

Geoffcin
12-29-2009, 03:16 PM
Actually, when recorded in a church it should sound like it was recorded in a church, not like you are actually in a church.

Remember, even in these live settings, mics, chords, mixers, engineering, mastering, and transferring all effect the information on that CD/vinyl ever before it goes into your system. You aren't actually hearing what was played in that church perfectly.

Yes I agree, but sometimes I think it can sound even BETTER!

I've found that in a "HiFi' setup that I like, a good "live" recording will actually sound better to me than it would if you were to hear it live in anything but the "best seat in the house". The ability to control all of the parameters that go into the recording as if you were in the "best seat in the house" lay them down, and then play them back in your controlled audio room makes for a better "sound". It might not be live, but it sounds better! (at least to me)

p.s.

We should open a different thread if we want to get into the "truth vs. beauty" argument...

frenchmon
12-29-2009, 04:40 PM
Actually, when recorded in a church it should sound like it was recorded in a church, not like you are actually in a church.

Remember, even in these live settings, mics, chords, mixers, engineering, mastering, and transferring all effect the information on that CD/vinyl ever before it goes into your system. You aren't actually hearing what was played in that church perfectly.

And how does a live recording in a church sound versus like you are in a church AA?

Remember, he did not say they go to sound like they where in a church, but to get the natural acoustic settings, because these spaces sound beautiful and they prefer the natural reverberation over even the best digital processors. NO one is in the church when they record...they dont record gospel or christian music at all...they just want what the church acoustics have to offer.

Now I've got many gospel recording that where recorded live in a church, and they sound like they where recorded live in a church, and I do get the feeling like I'm in a church when sitting in my easy chair. And while I know a recording may not be perfect, I can't hear or pick out the imperfections on the recording thus while logic says it not perfect, I cant pin-point the imperfections on a live recording.

frenchmon

Geoffcin
12-29-2009, 04:54 PM
Now I've got many gospel recording that where recorded live in a church, and they sound like they where recorded live in a church, and I do get the feeling like I'm in a church when sitting in my easy chair. And while I know a recording may not be perfect, I can't hear or pick out the imperfections on the recording thus while logic says it not perfect, I cant pin-point the imperfections on a live recording.

frenchmon

Well I don't presume to answer for Adam, but when was the last time you sat in your easy chair at church with the volume control in your hand?

These recordings might sound LIKE a church, but if you actually were at the church it would sound different, and probably not nearly as good. The amount of effort people like Chesky go through to put down these tracks mean that what you are hearing, even with the limitations of playback tech, is usually MUCH better than anyone sitting in the recording venue could possibly expect to hear.

It sucks to be us eh?

Ajani
12-29-2009, 05:37 PM
Yes I agree, but sometimes I think it can sound even BETTER!

I've found that in a "HiFi' setup that I like, a good "live" recording will actually sound better to me than it would if you were to hear it live in anything but the "best seat in the house". The ability to control all of the parameters that go into the recording as if you were in the "best seat in the house" lay them down, and then play them back in your controlled audio room makes for a better "sound". It might not be live, but it sounds better! (at least to me)

p.s.

We should open a different thread if we want to get into the "truth vs. beauty" argument...

Agreed... I also think recorded can sound much better than live (though obviously that is totally subjective)... It's part of why I don't ascribe to the view that the aim of Hi-Fi is to reproduce the live event...

In addition to your points about "best seat in the house", there is also the issue of mistakes, audience noise, etc... that can make a live event less satisfying than a recorded one... I find that many artists who can produce beautiful music in a studio, can't sing the same song very well at a live event....

frenchmon
12-29-2009, 05:55 PM
Well I don't presume to answer for Adam, but when was the last time you sat in your easy chair at church with the volume control in your hand?

These recordings might sound LIKE a church, but if you actually were at the church it would sound different, and probably not nearly as good. The amount of effort people like Chesky go through to put down these tracks mean that what you are hearing, even with the limitations of playback tech, is usually MUCH better than anyone sitting in the recording venue could possibly expect to hear.

It sucks to be us eh?

Funny you should say that. I enjoyed my church in North Carolina. It was a huge congregation with about 3000 members. They had about 200 in choir and a 15 piece praise band. They had a Yammie PA sound system with these huge speakers hanging from the ceiling. They would play numerous songs from Jars of Clay, Michael W. Smith and the sorts and the original artist did sound better when I played them at home. I think it was the system at church that was terrible. But now I live in a suburb of St. Louis and attend a much smaller church about 150 members with 5 people in the choir and 4 people in the praise band. I was just sitting in church about 2 weeks ago, in my same spot I always sit in listening and thinking how much better the system sounds....that it sounded just like I was sitting in my two channel room at home. The only difference in sound was the noise from the church members, but the sound system the church was using was great. I listen through amplification at church as well as home. The only differenc other that the noisy members is one is live the other is recorded. If I close my eyes and the gear is good, I can get the same sound. Once againI can't hear the imperfection of the recording equipment versus a live peformance. But its all subjective any ways.

frenchmon

frenchmon
12-29-2009, 05:59 PM
.. I find that many artists who can produce beautiful music in a studio, can't sing the same song very well at a live event....

Aint that the truth!

frenchmon

Geoffcin
12-29-2009, 06:08 PM
Ahh, convergence is a wonderful thing. Really when you get down to it we're all after a similar experience.

For me it's really simple. A well recorded closely mic'ed recording of a vocal sounds in my system like the person is in front of me, quite literally standing there between my speakers. I've been to loads of concerts, Broadway plays, and clubs and I've NEVER had that feeling in situ. I've listen to a bunch of a great audio gear, and the ones that really work give you that "being on stage" with the performer feeling when the music was recorded that way.

Like I said, it sucks to be us eh?

Geoffcin
12-29-2009, 06:25 PM
Funny you should say that. I enjoyed my church in North Carolina. It was a huge congregation with about 3000 members. They had about 200 in choir and a 15 piece praise band. They had a Yammie PA sound system with these huge speakers hanging from the ceiling. They would play numerous songs from Jars of Clay, Michael W. Smith and the sorts and the original artist did sound better when I played them at home. I think it was the system at church that was terrible. But now I live in a suburb of St. Louis and attend a much smaller church about 150 members with 5 people in the choir and 4 people in the praise band. I was just sitting in church about 2 weeks ago, in my same spot I always sit in listening and thinking how much better the system sounds....that it sounded just like I was sitting in my two channel room at home. The only difference in sound was the noise from the church members, but the sound system the church was using was great. I listen through amplification at church as well as home. The only differenc other that the noisy members is one is live the other is recorded. If I close my eyes and the gear is good, I can get the same sound. Once againI can't hear the imperfection of the recording equipment versus a live peformance. But its all subjective any ways.

frenchmon


Oh, don't get me wrong. There's times when nothing, nothing short of having your own church will do. For example;

I was on vacation in England in '98 and we went to Bath. Well they have a beautiful Church there, the Bath Abbey, and the organ they have is one of the most extraordinary organs I've ever seen or heard. I was lucky enough to have a professional organist put it though it's paces, and in this respect I will agree with you 100%. There's not a sound system on earth that could reproduce what I heard that day. it's quite literally burned into my brain.

Before we went to the Moon as a species we did things like this;

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1130729221047124484nEUxFJ

Truly sublime...

Ajani
12-29-2009, 06:52 PM
Ahh, convergence is a wonderful thing. Really when you get down to it we're all after a similar experience.

Yep, pretty much... We all want basically the same thing, even though we'll fight like stray dogs over a piece of meat, about the best way to achieve those goals...

atomicAdam
12-30-2009, 12:21 AM
Do any of u think there is a possibility that a reviewer is possitively swaded by listening to their favorite album as opposed to something they don't like.

What I mean, is we all probably read a reviewer say ' I was able to get lost in the music and stop thinking critically of the sound '. Isn't great music, music u love, supposed to do that anyways? I mean for me, New Order songs on a system of any quality tend to take me away to a different place.

What made me think of this is that I've heard classical (of which I am not always a fan) on an amazing system, and I loved it!

And jsut tonight I was listening to Broken Social Scene, first on a CD and was reading the forums and about 3/4 the way through kicked off the yoke of the internet and just listened to the music. I started to get lost in it when while reading the forums I though more critically about what I heard. When I switched over to the same BSS on vinyl, and didn't read the forums, I was lost, but not fully, until about track six.

I guess, I'm just wondering if a reviewer pre biases equipment by listening to music they love?

(Btw, forgive typos. This was posted from my phone while in bed)

RGA
12-30-2009, 01:09 AM
The trap is buying well recorded cds of music you don't particularly love just because it is said to be of great recording quality. Patricia barber's Cafe Blue - yes good recording - not really my cup of tea musically - on any system really.

The stereo system should not be choosing the music you listen to. If it only renders supposed good recordings listenable - it does not mean that it is "showing you" the weaknesses of the recordings - it may in fact be adding its own problems and good recordings are less affected. Good recordings tend to make mediocre systems sound a lot better than they are.

A while back I was using The Outfield "Play Deep" which is a mediocre CD in the mid 1980s that happened to be the first CD I bought. I use this from time to time to hear what it is a system will do with it. On Audio Note's CD player running through Sim Audio amplifier and Sonus Faber Toy loudspeakers the sound was more open and far more informative than it had ever been on any other system I have ever heard that CD on. It showed up faults in the recording but remained listenable and interesting. With the Sim Audio CD player the album was darker deader less informative and less interesting. It wasn't bright or etchy - it just sounded a lot like my 12 year old Cambridge Audio and a lot more like how most CD players play this cd. It's like half the signal is lost but it's enjoyable enough.

On another CD however - Pulp Fiction (I forget which track) a male vocal sounded as if he was almost "straining" vocally while again the Sim Audio thickened everything making it dark and brooding. Something definitely to be said for a lack of contrast in the Sim Audio Player. Not that it was bad by any means - I quite enjoyed the Sim Audio Gear and Sonus Faber combo because it was "musically" enjoyable and all of that. The AN CD player delineated differences with the recordings in a rather striking manner - moreso with the matching tube amps.

The Sim Audio reminds me of Bob Neill when he compared his Naim CD player in that it grabs you by the scruff of the neck with its stamped on bold flavour and impressive deep bass. But it's always there - on every recording and it doesn't go away.

This is the thing about differentiating differences - when a rock album has a kick you in the chest midbass hit the speaker needs to have that ability. If it doesn't then it's not differntiating the differences - it is not reproducing what is on the disc. No speaker will do that perfectly incidentally no matter how much you spend. So you choose the compromise that meets your needs.

poppachubby
12-30-2009, 01:35 AM
I mean for me, New Order songs on a system of any quality tend to take me away to a different place.



What kind of unwashed, smelly hippy are you?!? New Order? Pfffftt....so much to learn about "the movement"...

atomicAdam
12-30-2009, 08:04 AM
What kind of unwashed, smelly hippy are you?!? New Order? Pfffftt....so much to learn about "the movement"...

I'm no hippy. I no listen to the Grateful Dead of Phish or any thing like that.

frenchmon
12-30-2009, 05:29 PM
I wonder what the thought would be of someone who generally doesn't like a particular "type of" speaker design but then hears one that truly impresses him. For instance a panel fan who auditions a particular boxed speakers and raves about them to the point of buying them himself and substiting his panels? Or the other way around.

RGA and Adam...just read a wonderful review of the Canton Vento Reference 7 speaker at www.dagogo.com. Canton just happends to be one of my favorite speaker lines but just don't get their due in the States, thus not many reviews. Never heard of the reviewer (Ed Momkus) but he did a wonderful and professional job in his review of the speaker. Kindly tell him if you happen to
see him that I said thanks.

frenchmon

Ajani
12-30-2009, 06:21 PM
I wonder what the thought would be of someone who generally doesn't like a particular "type of" speaker design but then hears one that truly impresses him. For instance a panel fan who auditions a particular boxed speakers and raves about them to the point of buying them himself and substiting his panels? Or the other way around.

I think that would make people take notice... as long as it is a case where the reviewer has sufficient experience with the other "type of" speaker, but never liked any of them... and not a case where this is basically the first time he is being exposed to a panel speaker...

If it's the first time he's being exposed, then that probably just means he was always a 'panel' guy but didn't know it yet... if he's heard, for example, the entire Magnepan line, and suddenly a new model is released that gets him to put aside his B&W 802D, then I suspect the new Maggie has accomplished something that previous ones did not.... And hence would be worth an audition by persons who don't like panels...

RGA
12-30-2009, 09:10 PM
RGA and Adam...just read a wonderful review of the Canton Vento Reference 7 speaker at www.dagogo.com. Canton just happends to be one of my favorite speaker lines but just don't get their due in the States, thus not many reviews. Never heard of the reviewer (Ed Momkus) but he did a wonderful and professional job in his review of the speaker. Kindly tell him if you happen to
see him that I said thanks.

frenchmon

If I see him I will let you know. I am not sure which dagogo reviewers - so far All I know is that I am going (if the U.S. will let Canadian Planes in. My computer is iffy - They are saying no carry-on bags and to check everything - I'm not checking a laptop. But they may soften this before Jan 6th.

Other than me - I know that Constantine Soo is going but so far not sure about anyone else.