Next Gen of Audiophiles Hiding in Plain Sight???

[Ajani]

From about 10 years ago (when I first gained an interest in High End Audio, by accidentally stumbling across audioreview.com, in my quest to find a review for some cheap Technics speakers) I've seen threads claiming that audiophilia (how I hate that name) is dying/dead... Of course that really refers to North America and not places like Japan, where Hi-Fi is still booming...

Anyway, a recent thread on a Stereophile forum left me wondering if audiophilia is as strong as ever, but that it has morphed with the new generation... The point was made that the market for high-end headphones is growing and growing and that many younger listeners are as hardcore (if not more so) about their headphone rigs, as the the 'traditional' audiophile is about his loudspeaker setup...

A quick look at the number of younger persons actively involved on Head-Fi.com and regularly attending annual Head-Fi meets indicates that audiophilia is still very much alive and kicking...

Also, an examination of the headphone market shows new players vying for a spot selling high-end headphones... Monster has a line of them (starting with the Beats by Dr Dre - which have received excellent reviews and are featured in a number of pop music videos), B&W is entering the market... Earlier this year, Denon launched a $1K flagship pair... Sennheiser launched their $1.4K flagships, etc... Even Bose has received good reviews for their noise cancelling phones...

As I've mentioned in a previous thread, the trend towards high-end headphones rather than speakers makes sense, considering that most of us in the younger generations start off with an iPod or other portable player... So our first upgrade would usually be to buy a nicer pair of headphones... And considering how much cheaper it is to get to true high-end sound with a pair of cans than with loudspeakers, it is the only way many persons can afford high-end...

Now, some persons believe that the younger generation will eventually buy high-end speakers as their earnings grow... but IMO, whether they do or not is irrelevant, the fact that they are buying high quality gear already shows that our hobby is alive and kicking...

[Worf101]

Your points seem logical, make "common sense" and seem to be borne out by evidence that can be seen on the heads of people all around us. It makes sense I suppose that, with the reduced economic fortunes of the current generation, they'd see to get improved sound in the arena where they listen to music the most, and that's on their heads. This will probably mean that the audiophile of futre will NOT have a dedicated 2 channel system as he or she rarely shares their music with others outsdie of a boomin' system car. I suspect as you surmise they'll spend their money on better digital storage, DAC's, headphone pre-amps, mulitplatform interfaces and improved cans.

Only makes sense.

Worf

[poppachubby]

Ah, personally, I don't see this "generation" you're talking about. If they exist, it's a small percentage versus those who are wearing cheap earbuds and the like.

Whether or not these people would move onto 2 channel, is a question no one can really answer except those individuals. Everything else is just presumptuous...

The hobby is in decline, let's face it. That doesn't mean that it's headed to extinction. It also doesn't mean that it has to do an about face to change. Its appeal is already there, once the interested people find it, THEY will do the changing.

[Ajani]

Ah, personally, I don't see this "generation" you're talking about. If they exist, it's a small percentage versus those who are wearing cheap earbuds and the like.

Well, first you can try checking sites like head-fi.org, and check out their annual 'Can Jam' Meets (events that have far far far more younger persons than any of the traditional Hi-Fi shows, and if I'm not mistaken have better overall attendance)...

As for percentages: well that's always been true of high-end audio... The number of persons with quality speakers and electronics has always been a small percentage of those using cheap all-in-one turntable/cassette/CD mini systems or iPod docks... So the same should be expected of headphones...


Whether or not these people would move onto 2 channel, is a question no one can really answer except those individuals. Everything else is just presumptuous...

Firstly, headphones are 2 channel... But I assume you mean whether they will move on to speakers... As I said earlier: whether they do or don't really doesn't matter... high-end audio is about pursuing better quality sound... whether that is done using a turntable, tube amp and loudspeakers or a DAC, headphone amp and headphones makes no difference...


The hobby is in decline, let's face it. That doesn't mean that it's headed to extinction. It also doesn't mean that it has to do an about face to change. Its appeal is already there, once the interested people find it, THEY will do the changing.

Obviously, I disagree with the view of decline... I think the hobby has already changed for many persons... But one of the cool things about being an audiophile today, is the wealth of choice available... Whether you want a tiny but high-quality headphone rig or you have a dedicated listening room for a pair of Soundlabs U-1PXs, the options are there... I think it is a great time to be an audiophile...

[Feanor]

A few thoughts from me who's been in hifi since 1971.

The '70s were the heyday of hifi. The general population, (in North American and Japan, at least), were really into it and there were hifi shops on every street corner.

By the early '80 things were in hard decline. To some extent the market had become saturated, but the bigger factor, IMO, was the advent of the VCR. Video trumped audio for the majority of people then and it still does now. Today the mass market can only be moved by way of home theatre, though presently many are content with HTIB. But a stablization of the video technology, (no super new displays and commoditization at some), might divert the consumers' attention back to the audio aspect.

Audiophile interest persists however, and will continue to do so indefinitely. Interest is still very strong in Japan, (as mentioned), and is growing strongly in China and elsewhere in Asia. However it will remain a niche market more or less.

Notwithstanding, there is a better selection of really high-end equipment today than there ever was in the pass. On the other hand high-end is also more expensive than ever. Dedicated audio brands like Cambridge and NAD deserve a lot of praise for holding out in the entry and mid-range markets; of course they can only do so having move production off-shore to low wage markets.

A negative factor for hifi (and everything else) is the pending impoverishment of the American (and Canadian) working and middle classes. North America has shot its bolt in world economic affairs and most of its denizens can only look forward to an inevidable, though hopefully slow, decline to third-world living standards. Hopefully that third-world benchmark will rise a little in the meantime, but the forces of global wealth concentration work relentlessly against the common man & woman everywhere. Not to mention that 1.5+ billion people will be displaced due to seaboard inundation and desertification due to global warning -- since it's obvious the governments of the world can't agree to do anything to forestall the problem.

[poppachubby]

Well, first you can try checking sites like head-fi.org, and check out their annual 'Can Jam' Meets (events that have far far far more younger persons than any of the traditional Hi-Fi shows, and if I'm not mistaken have better overall attendance)...




Firstly, headphones are 2 channel... But I assume you mean whether they will move on to speakers... As I said earlier: whether they do or don't really doesn't matter... high-end audio is about pursuing better quality sound... whether that is done using a turntable, tube amp and loudspeakers or a DAC, headphone amp and headphones makes no difference...





Well, we have differing views on what qualifies as an interest in this hobby vs. a commitment. I am very much pro-headphones, but I don't think someone with a decent set of cans and a dac is all set-up in the ways of hi-fi.

As far as the decline thing goes. Feanor hit it on the head. My dad was huge into hi-fi, he was HK all the way. I remember when hi-fi was a huge buzz when I was a kid. Young guys with any kind of cash ran out to buy the biggest system they could afford. Times have changed, it's simply not like that right now. Besides the fact, who has money for any of it anyhow?

Anyhow, that's my 0.02

[Woochifer]

But, even with the iPod and these high end headphone options, the market for audio products remains small. The average household spends less than $50 a year on audio products. Keep that in mind when painting a pretty picture about the industry -- it's just not that big.

The home audio component market has been persistently shrinking since it peaked in 1992. As I've pointed out many times on this board, the audio market has been shifting towards portables and mobility products for decades. Consider that the iPod alone outsells the COMBINED home audio component more than threefold. Headphones are part of the iPod ecosystem, and that's where the market has gone. Even high-end components have begun to add iPod docks at least as an option.

High end headphones have always been around, but with more megabuck options, it looks like more manufacturers are trying to appeal to the "silly segment" of the market (i.e., the part of the market that charges exorbitant prices for incremental or illusory sound quality improvements). But, bear in mind that high end headphone options does not mean that people are buying them in droves.

The way I see the home audio market evolving, it's the middle market that has gotten squeezed. High end components can proliferate because those companies can survive by producing low volume with extremely high margins. Mass market components will do fine because economies of scale and cost reductions with electronic components and manufacturing techniques have pushed prices downward while keeping the sound quality at the same plateau. But, the options for higher quality in the middle price points have been dwindling.

[E-Stat]

Guys, I don't share all the gloom and doom voiced here. We're headed towards third world status? Audio is dead? Wha?

As for me, I think this is a golden age for those who really love music. Good quality gear has never been cheaper. Everyone can afford taking their favorite music mobile with incredible flexibility. Instead of being limited to radio or a single cassette, one can fit a library in their compact player. Not to mention having a CD changer or iPod dock in your car. There has never been more choices in terms of music deployment. Vinyl is still very much available and there are multiple digital formats, most of which can be centrally stored in a computer environment for immediate access. Compact bookshelf speakers today are incredibly good. For the crazies like me, available sound quality has never been better. The used market brims with great deals and with the internet, we have easy access to finding it. NOS tubes are easily found. And - as this forum demonstrates - there is an incredible source of sharing experience with others that never existed in the alleged "heyday" of audio. Call me an incurable optimist, but I can't imagine things in audio being any better for us!

rw

[poppachubby]

Hmmm, well put E-Stat. Those are all true. Perhaps you're right, a little too much gloom.

[Feanor]

....

High end headphones have always been around, but with more megabuck options, it looks like more manufacturers are trying to appeal to the "silly segment" of the market (i.e., the part of the market that charges exorbitant prices for incremental or illusory sound quality improvements). But, bear in mind that high end headphone options does not mean that people are buying them in droves.

...
High-end 'phones have indeed been around for a while.

Circa 1972 I bought Koss Electrostatics for C$400, close to $2000 in today's dollars. They need to be driven by a power amp; they were painfully heavy and head crushing. I never really like the sound either -- maybe it was my Dynaco Stereo 80 s/s amp driving them.

A few years later, perhaps 1977, I got myself Stax Electorstatics, paying maybe C$700, over $2100 in today's dollars. The Stax also need to be power amp driven; they were more comfortable and better sounding than the Koss.

[Feanor]

Guys, I don't share all the gloom and doom voiced here. We're headed towards third world status? Audio is dead? Wha?

...

It's just me, 'Stat. Just me, but then I could be right. :frown5:

[audio amateur]

I wholeheartedly agree with E. For one, good quality sound is cheap. On top of this, it has never been so easy and cheap to own music, and the choice is vast.

[GMichael]

I feel that as more and more people get into HT that it's inevitable that a percentage of them will take notice to 2 channel. Sure, most people are happy with a HTiB solution, but hasn't it always been that way? Even my modest HT system does 2 channel music better than the average stereo from 30 years ago.

But I also agree with Ajani. With Ipods being the walkman of the 21's century, it's only normal that we see a growth of headphones in use. It's also inevitable that as these kids grow up and buy homes that they'll want music there too. A percent will want real systems.

The information age is a good thing.

[dean_martin]

I'm pretty much on board with E-Stat. Availability of both gear and music (as pointed out by aa) is at an all-time high, IMO.

Whattabout the music? Do young people still hear their first "favorite" song on FM radio? I'm by no means an expert on what's going on out there, but does the quality of popular music (both quality of recordings and quality of performers) effect the market for top-notch gear? If there is a relationship between demand for better gear and popular music, then where does today's popular music stand in relation to years gone by? (This is from a guy who hasn't kept up with the top 40 in many years.) OTOH, is this new generation mining music from all decades? I'm interested in knowing what the new generation to which Ajani refers is listening to.

[Feanor]

I'm pretty much on board with E-Stat. Availability of both gear and music (as pointed out by aa) is at an all-time high, IMO.

Whattabout the music? Do young people still hear their first "favorite" song on FM radio? I'm by no means an expert on what's going on out there, but does the quality of popular music (both quality of recordings and quality of performers) effect the market for top-notch gear? If there is a relationship between demand for better gear and popular music, then where does today's popular music stand in relation to years gone by? (This is from a guy who hasn't kept up with the top 40 in many years.) OTOH, is this new generation mining music from all decades? I'm interested in knowing what the new generation to which Ajani refers is listening to.
There is no necessary connection between music loving and audiophilia -- there was a recent thread that touched on this.

In the '70 it might be said that people can to hifi because they had at least some love of music. Today that isn't necessarily true given most equipment today sold for HT -- movies not music. But pure audiophilia for the purpose of music listening won't die, albeit it is and will be a niche market.

Speaking of music, I've been hearing about the demise of classical music for a couple of decades at least. This ain't gonna happen either. Like high-end audio, there is more choice and better availability today than ever before. Granted, classical will be as it always has been: a niche reserved for the elite crème of music listeners.

[audio amateur]

I'm pretty much on board with E-Stat. Availability of both gear and music (as pointed out by aa) is at an all-time high, IMO.

Whattabout the music? Do young people still hear their first "favorite" song on FM radio? I'm by no means an expert on what's going on out there, but does the quality of popular music (both quality of recordings and quality of performers) effect the market for top-notch gear? If there is a relationship between demand for better gear and popular music, then where does today's popular music stand in relation to years gone by? (This is from a guy who hasn't kept up with the top 40 in many years.) OTOH, is this new generation mining music from all decades? I'm interested in knowing what the new generation to which Ajani refers is listening to.
It really depends which 'generation' he's referring to, and the person too. As an example, I'm 22 and one of my good friends listens to the Rolling Stones and the likes (which I think you'll agree are way before his time), whereas another would listen to the latest commercial cheese (though I do every now and then listen to the cheese). I don't believe it is really possible to generalise what that generation is listening to. A lot of people have eclectic tastes, and different people listen to different music.

[dean_martin]

My son is 20. I have no idea what kind of music he's downloading, but I do know what he listens to on other formats like vinyl because he often gets me to help him find a release and I give him vinyl for Christmas, birthday, etc.

As far as classical goes, there is a small minority of us who grow up exposed to classical, rebelled against it and then succumbed. Some of us weren't exposed to it by our parents, but rather we actually played it while in high school band, college band, taking piano lessons, (or perhaps others who could, sang in a choir) etc. And/or, we were blown away by a piece we heard in the soundtrack of a movie and had to track it down. As long as we continue to offer a well-rounded education there will be interest in classical music.

[E-Stat]

And/or, we were blown away by a piece we heard in the soundtrack of a movie and had to track it down. As long as we continue to offer a well-rounded education there will be interest in classical music.
When I was a teenager, I was really into prog rock. It was EL&P that got me started with Mussorgsky and Copland. At the time, I was a bass freak and had double Advents (as I do today in the garage). Their product brochure talked about the 32 hz note found in Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra tone poem. While the low C pedal doesn't last very long, I found I really liked the piece. As for soundtracks, there are numerous ones today that I thoroughly enjoy. John Williams continues to be prolific with his early "Harry Potter" scores and "Memoirs of a Geisha". The later "Harry Potter" scores are equally well done with Nicholas Hooper. The Hans Zimmer score from "The Thin Red Line" is also quite tasty.

rw

[dean_martin]

When I was a teenager, I was really into prog rock. It was EL&P that got me started with Mussorgsky and Copland. At the time, I was a bass freak and had double Advents (as I do today in the garage). Their product brochure talked about the 32 hz note found in Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra tone poem. While the low C pedal doesn't last very long, I found I really liked the piece. As for soundtracks, there are numerous ones today that I thoroughly enjoy. John Williams continues to be prolific with his early "Harry Potter" scores and "Memoirs of a Geisha". The later "Harry Potter" scores are equally well done with Nicholas Hooper. The Hans Zimmer score from "The Thin Red Line" is also quite tasty.

rw

Who knew the bass demo track would be so awesome!

My son's a drummer (marching band and drum set). He was a huge drum corp fan and went to many shows and watched them on video. As I'm sure Sir T can attest, drum corps' classical repertoire is quite vast. Next thing I know, I'm on the prowl for the "best" recordings of "The Planets" and "Pictures at an Exhibition".

Some of my favorite classical works I first heard watching movies like 2001, A Clock Work Orange, The Hunger and on and on. I've only skimmed the surface, but about once a year I do some research and add a couple of classical titles to the collection. Last year I took the wife to the Mobile Symphony Orchestra's Valentine's Day performance. I noticed I was on the edge of my seat during parts of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet.

[Ajani]

Well, we have differing views on what qualifies as an interest in this hobby vs. a commitment. I am very much pro-headphones, but I don't think someone with a decent set of cans and a dac is all set-up in the ways of hi-fi.

Unfortunately, I've been marking exam papers all day, so I'm just getting a chance to catch up on my thread... However your comment caught my attention... So rather than assume what you mean, I'll just ask:

1) What qualifies as a "commitment" in this hobby as opposed to an "interest"??? (Since based on the discussion it would appear to me that you are referring to headphone/DAC users as only having an interest and not a commitment - So I really would appreciate the clarification)

2) What does your last sentence mean? It's very ambiguous and could easily be construed to mean that Cans/DAC are not hi-fi... So once again, I'd love some clarification...

[Ajani]

It really depends which 'generation' he's referring to, and the person too. As an example, I'm 22 and one of my good friends listens to the Rolling Stones and the likes (which I think you'll agree are way before his time), whereas another would listen to the latest commercial cheese (though I do every now and then listen to the cheese). I don't believe it is really possible to generalise what that generation is listening to. A lot of people have eclectic tastes, and different people listen to different music.

Don't think it really matters which generation as many persons have very eclectic tastes (as you pointed out)...

I am 29, but I listen to everything from 60's Rock, R&B, Classical and Gospel to Gangsta Rap, Dancehall and Alternative.... as do many persons near my age....

BTW, part of that appreciation for music from before I was born, can be attributed to the "nemesis of so many audiophiles" - MP3s (really AAC).... as I was exposed to and was able to purchase a wide range of music from iTunes that I would not have had access to otherwise (as those CDs long left the shelves of the local record shops)...

[Ajani]

Guys, I don't share all the gloom and doom voiced here. We're headed towards third world status? Audio is dead? Wha?

As for me, I think this is a golden age for those who really love music. Good quality gear has never been cheaper. Everyone can afford taking their favorite music mobile with incredible flexibility. Instead of being limited to radio or a single cassette, one can fit a library in their compact player. Not to mention having a CD changer or iPod dock in your car. There has never been more choices in terms of music deployment. Vinyl is still very much available and there are multiple digital formats, most of which can be centrally stored in a computer environment for immediate access. Compact bookshelf speakers today are incredibly good. For the crazies like me, available sound quality has never been better. The used market brims with great deals and with the internet, we have easy access to finding it. NOS tubes are easily found. And - as this forum demonstrates - there is an incredible source of sharing experience with others that never existed in the alleged "heyday" of audio. Call me an incurable optimist, but I can't imagine things in audio being any better for us!

rw

Well said... That's exactly the point I've been trying to convey... That there is so much opportunity for someone interested in music or Hi-Fi today... The musical selections are endless... the formats are varied as well...

And even though I hear persons complaining about how there is a decline in the middle of the market for hi-fi gear; There are still virtually endless ways to assemble a good 2 channel setup for ANY budget... There is no shortage of quality new or used gear available...

Yes, 2 Channel Hi-Fi might not be the focus of every electronics store on the corner anymore (as is claimed to have existed in the 70s), but that in no way means that hi-fi is dead or even dying...

[poppachubby]

Well said... That's exactly the point I've been trying to convey... That there is so much opportunity for someone interested in music or Hi-Fi today... The musical selections are endless... the formats are varied as well...

And even though I hear persons complaining about how there is a decline in the middle of the market for hi-fi gear; There are still virtually endless ways to assemble a good 2 channel setup for ANY budget... There is no shortage of quality new or used gear available...

Yes, 2 Channel Hi-Fi might not be the focus of every electronics store on the corner anymore (as is claimed to have existed in the 70s), but that in no way means that hi-fi is dead or even dying...

No, actually your original point was concerning Ipod/portable and headphone users entering a higher bracket.

My comments are simple. Sure. OK. A dac and headphones can be considered Hi-Fi. But I find it ironic for someone like yourself, who reveres this hobby so much, to really beleive that this is good enough.

It kind of mocks those who have made real effort to find a path and arrive at their chosen "nirvana". I suppose for some, headphones could very well represent the best of hi-fi. I simply don't see it that way.

Yes, there are tons of options out there for us all. The real question is, do non-audiophiles care? I personally think that many simply don't, and this is the "decline" I'm talking about. Maybe decline is a bad word... Anyhow, I don't think a pair of upgraded headphones constitutes much, even if they are on head-fi.com.

[Ajani]

My comments are simple. Sure. OK. A dac and headphones can be considered Hi-Fi. But I find it ironic for someone like yourself, who reveres this hobby so much, to really beleive that this is good enough.

It kind of mocks those who have made real effort to find a path and arrive at their chosen "nirvana". I suppose for some, headphones could very well represent the best of hi-fi. I simply don't see it that way.

Since reviews of headphones from just about all the major Hi-Fi mags regard them as being genuine high-end at incredibly cheap prices (relative to speakers), I think my point of view that they are Hi-Fi is more than justified...

Your point that "A dac and headphones can be considered Hi-Fi" is based solely on your own prejudices....

Sam Tellig's review of the AKG K701's in Stereophile pretty much sums up why many persons respect headphones greatly:

"Why mess around with speakers costing tens of thousands of dollars when you can have this?"

I have no issue if you want to spend every last cent you earn on Loudspeakers, amplification and room treatments, but that in no way diminishes the quality of a headphone setup...

Since clearly you just don't regard headphones as being real hi-fi based on your own prejudices, I won't spend any further time debating the subject with you... Enough experts rate headphones highly, that I don't need to convince you... I'll continue to enjoy my high quality rig and you can continue to enjoy yours...

[Luvin Da Blues]

I have no issue if you want to spend every last cent you earn on Loudspeakers, amplification and room treatments, but that in no way diminishes the quality of a headphone setup...

Some music just lends itself better to headphones, some to speakers. Completely different presentation. I really wish I could afford a real nice set of cans/headamp but I've spent enough on the main rig for now. Maybe next year. :14: :14: :14:

[Ajani]

Some music just lends itself better to headphones. Completely different presentation.

Same thing with Vinyl, CD, SACD, Tubes, Solid State, Electrostats, Horns, Cone Speakers, etc... Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses... And depending on your musical tastes and listening preferences, one or the other would serve you best....


I really wish I could afford a real nice set of cans/headamp but I've spent too much on the main rig for now. Maybe next year. :14: :14: :14:

Despite my love of headphones, I'd certainly put together a reference listening room with a pair of Soundlabs/Revel Ultima Saloons if I had the chance... I'd probably even setup a vinyl rig for the fun of it... Variety is always good... Just ask Tiger Woods

[poppachubby]

Man, I respect your love of reviews and reviewers, but I won't be lead around by the nose. It's the same with music critics, just opinions.

Yes we differ on the headphone topic. I must ask, if all you wear is headphones, are you concerned for your hearing at all? I'm not being facetious here, really. Even at moderate volumes, they can do a world of damage to your ears.

This would be my biggest point why headphones are a limited method.

Anyhow, yes, we will agree to disagree. More importantly than this point, was your original point that I was trying to speak to. About the new generation? You seem to think I want to argue the virtues of cans, but I don't really.

I have several pairs and am a huge fan actually. I also have a few amps. Besides recorded music, I am a musician and have been using headphones since I was a young teen, 13.

The real point I am trying to make is that I don't see the Ipod/headphone zealot making the leap. I mean why would they? Look at how much you enjoy your headphones...

[audio amateur]

We tend to listen louder w/ headphones/earphones unconsciously, but as long as you stay below 90dB you're fine. 90dB is pretty loud, even with headphones.

Chubbs, I'm good man. I've just finished the first term of my final year, getting ready to hit back home (Geneva) tomorrow. I'm pretty excited. I will be around tonight (my time) so I should be connected :)

[Feanor]

We tend to listen louder w/ headphones/earphones unconsciously, but as long as you stay below 90dB you're fine. 90dB is pretty loud, even with headphones.

Chubbs, I'm good man. I've just finished the first term of my final year, getting ready to hit back home (Geneva) tomorrow. I'm pretty excited. I will be around tonight (my time) so I should be connected :)
Hummm ... I think you're kidding yourself if you think long listening sessions at 90 dB are harmless over months and years. Too loud.

I listen (to my speakers) at an average level of < 70 dB, though occassional peaks can be 12+ higher. With headphones I might rarely go another 3-6 db at most. But personally I have no desire to listen at 90 dB.

[poppachubby]

Hummm ... I think you're kidding yourself if you think long listening sessions at 90 dB are harmless over months and years. Too loud.

I listen (to my speakers) at an average level of < 70 dB, though occassional peaks can be 12+ higher. With headphones I might rarely go another 3-6 db at most. But personally I have no desire to listen at 90 dB.

Hey Bill, I should have the Golden Tube up and running after the holidays. Do you think we can run it into your Mag's?

Joe was really pushing the Magnepan sound with a tube amp, but I have read alot to the contrary. I can promise you the amp will be tip top electrically and won't pose any threat to your gear. I have got an excellent technician on the case. After he gets it right, he will be doing the regular biasing that's required, until I can get my head around it.

I'm super pumped to hear your system...

[audio amateur]

Hummm ... I think you're kidding yourself if you think long listening sessions at 90 dB are harmless over months and years. Too loud.
.
I'm not kidding anyone. I did say under 90dB. I only stated that 90dB was loud as a reference point and I don't usually have any desire to listen at 90dB either.

[audio amateur]

I listen (to my speakers) at an average level of < 70 dB, though occassional peaks can be 12+ higher. With headphones I might rarely go another 3-6 db at most. But personally I have no desire to listen at 90 dB.
My average is probably only a little higher because I don't solely listen to classical, and generally classical pieces tend to be quieter over all, when you average quiet passage and peaks. This makes them less loud than your average music.

[audio amateur]

I'm super pumped to hear your system...
Don't get too pumped, apparently Maggies only sound good on Classical & acoustic music:D

Although I'm sure some nice jazz will sound good. It's nice of Bill to have you over. Hope you enjoy :thumbsup:

[Ajani]

Man, I respect your love of reviews and reviewers, but I won't be lead around by the nose. It's the same with music critics, just opinions.

Which is why I also listen for myself... And having heard both a wide range of traditional speaker/amp combos, I know that headphones are capable of true high end sound at far cheaper prices....

So since both my experiences and numerous user and professional reviews reach the same conclusion, I don't care whether you regard headphones and DACs as high end...


Yes we differ on the headphone topic. I must ask, if all you wear is headphones, are you concerned for your hearing at all? I'm not being facetious here, really. Even at moderate volumes, they can do a world of damage to your ears.

This would be my biggest point why headphones are a limited method.

Using a lawnmower can damage your hearing...

it really comes down to whether you make conscious efforts to be safe... In the case of headphones (and speakers as well) listen at reasonable levels... I don't like rock concert volume levels...


Anyhow, yes, we will agree to disagree. More importantly than this point, was your original point that I was trying to speak to. About the new generation? You seem to think I want to argue the virtues of cans, but I don't really.

I have several pairs and am a huge fan actually. I also have a few amps. Besides recorded music, I am a musician and have been using headphones since I was a young teen, 13.

The real point I am trying to make is that I don't see the Ipod/headphone zealot making the leap. I mean why would they? Look at how much you enjoy your headphones...

The problem is that in addressing my point about the new gen, you are arguing the virtues of cans... Since in my initial post I made it clear that no "leap" was required, as high end sound can be attained using headphones... You then made it clear that you feel a "leap" (to speakers and amps) is required as you think that headphones are not real high end...

If your argument was just that you don't think persons setting up headphone rigs will eventually switch to speakers, then we would have no disagreement... As some might other might not and no-one really knows how many would...

As for you using loads of cans: that merely means you have some use for them, as an alternative for when it is inconvenient or impossible to use loudspeakers... That in no way means you have any real regard for them... There are Audiophiles who have cheap iPod docks and table radios in their kitchens and bathrooms, that does not mean they regard those devices as real hifi...

As for my love of headphones, that doesn't prevent me from also buying a traditional amp/speaker setup... Right now I use my headphone rig for serious listening, but I have a decent pair of M-Audio Active speakers for other listening situations.... I've even been considering setting up a higher quality Monitor/Amp combo (Revel Performa M22/Naim Nait 5i-2) as an alternative to my headphone setup... Also, many members of head-fi have both a quality headphone rig and a loudspeaker setup (even though their primary love is often the headphones)....

[Ajani]

Don't get too pumped, apparently Maggies only sound good on Classical & acoustic music:D

No, they sound good on nothing... and people who use them (especially Feanor) only do so because they have never heard a traditional cone speaker... :dita:

[poppachubby]

Using a lawnmower can damage your hearing...

it really comes down to whether you make conscious efforts to be safe... In the case of headphones (and speakers as well) listen at reasonable levels... I don't like rock concert volume levels...




MMM hmmm. As I agree with you on making efforts to be safe, it's completely pointless if you don't know what safe is. I have been to hearing specialists in the past. You would be surprised at what can affect your hearing. Even at a "reasonable level", long term usage of headphones will chip away at your hearing. If you really are listening to your cans daily for hours, it could be a benefit to be 100% certain of the science. As a teenager, I foolishly compromised roughly 20% of my hearing, between live gigs and headphones.


As for you using loads of cans: that merely means you have some use for them, as an alternative for when it is inconvenient or impossible to use loudspeakers... That in no way means you have any real regard for them... There are Audiophiles who have cheap iPod docks and table radios in their kitchens and bathrooms, that does not mean they regard those devices as real hifi...

Have you ever used a pair of headphones to reproduce an actual note of music from an intsrument? Quite different than replaying an audio source. Yes, you could say I have a "use" for them. At this point, I don't use loads. My K240S are up to most tasks and lately, my K66 leave the house with me.

As I already mentioned, my original use for headphones was for practising on my bass guitar. It was after this that I began to use them for audio. I have probably owned 50 different pairs since that time. Do you suppose someone with no regard for cans would be actively seeking a pair of AKG K240 Sextett, late production? For years now infact.

If you're talking about a set-up similar to yours, well of course its hi-fi. It's also thousands of dollars. You have researched well and have achieved great synergy, with all things being thought out to achieve a goal. This is my point...

I think a typical portable user, with earbuds,cansniff out the lack of fidelity. For the small percentage who care, they may upgrade to some decent cans, I would guess in the $100 range. Maybe they'll even buy a dac or portable amp, again in the $100 range. Is that all it takes to be considered hi-fi? This is where my leap comes from. Even if it's a leap to a $1K set of cans.

[Feanor]

Hey Bill, I should have the Golden Tube up and running after the holidays. Do you think we can run it into your Mag's?

Joe was really pushing the Magnepan sound with a tube amp, but I have read alot to the contrary. I can promise you the amp will be tip top electrically and won't pose any threat to your gear. I have got an excellent technician on the case. After he gets it right, he will be doing the regular biasing that's required, until I can get my head around it.

I'm super pumped to hear your system...
I'd like to hear the Maggies driven by a tube amp. I don't expect there'd be any problems driving them with the Golden Tube -- at least not at reasonable volumes. Unfortunately it will be me who decides what reasonable volumes are. :biggrin5:

The Maggies are 4 ohms and other than that they aren't a difficult load. Does the GT have 4 ohm taps?

[poppachubby]

Afraid not Bill. It's very basic, however super nice gold pre amp inputs and banana speaker jacks.

I'll bring over a nice stack of jazz. The last thing I'm cvoncerned about is high volume. I am concerned with clarity, seperation and stage from an analog source.

[Feanor]

My average is probably only a little higher because I don't solely listen to classical, and generally classical pieces tend to be quieter over all, when you average quiet passage and peaks. This makes them less loud than your average music.
This probably true in general despite that with classical while the fortissimos are much louder, the pianissimo are also much quieter.

So since there are classical crazies, just like rock crazies, who try to achieve concert hall volumes at home, it might not be invariably true.

[audio amateur]

This probably true in general despite that with classical while the fortissimos are much louder, the pianissimo are also much quieter.

So since there are classical crazies, just like rock crazies, who try to achieve concert hall volumes at home, it might not be invariably true.
That's the annoying thing.To hear the soft passages you to have the volume control turned up, which means the dynamic passages are often quite loud. When there are people around, you're constantly on the remote control... Some pieces you just can't enjoy unless you're alone.

[Ajani]

If you're talking about a set-up similar to yours, well of course its hi-fi. It's also thousands of dollars. You have researched well and have achieved great synergy, with all things being thought out to achieve a goal. This is my point...

I think a typical portable user, with earbuds,cansniff out the lack of fidelity. For the small percentage who care, they may upgrade to some decent cans, I would guess in the $100 range. Maybe they'll even buy a dac or portable amp, again in the $100 range. Is that all it takes to be considered hi-fi? This is where my leap comes from. Even if it's a leap to a $1K set of cans.

I'm not talking about users whose journey ends at slapping a pair of $50 iGrados on their iPhone... Even though that would sound good enough for most of the mass market... I'm talking about the number of headphone users who spend large amounts of time and care assembling a decent rig (or several)...

My setup costs $2K, which might seem like a lot to members of this site... but as I keep telling you: check out Head-Fi.org and you'll see that there are more members than I can count, who own setups far more expensive than mine.... not to mention that a large number of the members own multiple high quality headphone rigs... And Head-Fi has more active members than any of the typical audiophile forums I've been on... So when you start to consider how many of them have quality rigs, you'll see why I can refer to them as another generation of audiophiles...

The last thread I read on Head-Fi was about guys who combine Grado PS1000 Cans ($1,700) with Cary Exciter Amps ($2,800)...

One of the things that makes Cans so addictive to many is because of the ability to not only assemble a quality rig for a relatively cheap cost, but to setup several quality rigs (variety)... With traditional loudspeakers, the cost and space requirements generally prohibits having more than one reference setup...

[Feanor]

Afraid not Bill. It's very basic, however super nice gold pre amp inputs and banana speaker jacks.

I'll bring over a nice stack of jazz. The last thing I'm cvoncerned about is high volume. I am concerned with clarity, seperation and stage from an analog source.
I see that now that I've gone back and looked at you pictures of the amp. The GT and most tube amps use output transformers; most often they provide 4 and 8, and sometimes 16 ohm taps from these transformers. It's a bit unusual to see one without. For the sake of the amp more than the speakers, it would be wise to read what GT says about 4 ohm loads.

[pixelthis]

Since reviews of headphones from just about all the major Hi-Fi mags regard them as being genuine high-end at incredibly cheap prices (relative to speakers), I think my point of view that they are Hi-Fi is more than justified...

Your point that "A dac and headphones can be considered Hi-Fi" is based solely on your own prejudices....

Sam Tellig's review of the AKG K701's in Stereophile pretty much sums up why many persons respect headphones greatly:

"Why mess around with speakers costing tens of thousands of dollars when you can have this?"

I have no issue if you want to spend every last cent you earn on Loudspeakers, amplification and room treatments, but that in no way diminishes the quality of a headphone setup...

Since clearly you just don't regard headphones as being real hi-fi based on your own prejudices, I won't spend any further time debating the subject with you... Enough experts rate headphones highly, that I don't need to convince you... I'll continue to enjoy my high quality rig and you can continue to enjoy yours...

OUCH!
Somebody got his toes stepped on!
I have a 80$ set of cans and thats all I need, and I listen quite a bit to them.
But "canned" music has a distinct sound, and to each his own, but nothing will ever beat a
decent set of bookshelves(speakers).
As for the "next gen" of audiophilliacs, will they ever know what its like to build a receiver from a kit?
A true piece of audio gear is wood and metal, or at least metal.
I laugh when I SEE SOMEONE pay five grand for a SET amp when I could build one with
second hand parts, a schematic, and a soldering iron.
But that is probably in the past, a rack of gear lovingly collected by hook or crook, second hand, new, repaired.
"Sigh".:1:

[Ajani]

OUCH!
Somebody got his toes stepped on!

It's the same (well mine is probably a more civilized reaction) that you see when some clown tells another audiophile that his carefully researched, auditioned, setup and expensive Naim gear is not real Hi-Fi...

OR

That his B&W 802D are just overpriced mass market junk that can be bettered by a $2K set of PSB speakers or a pair of Maggie MMGs....

OR

That his $30K CD Player has a harsh digital sound that could be bettered by a $1K turntable....

OR

That his reference Tube Integrated Amp is crap, because it don't measure as well as a cheap Solid State Receiver...

Trying to define High End as being limited to our individual sonic preferences is shear stupidity and is the cause of most disagreements I've seen between audiophiles...


I have a 80$ set of cans and thats all I need, and I listen quite a bit to them.
But "canned" music has a distinct sound, and to each his own, but nothing will ever beat a
decent set of bookshelves(speakers).

Yes Cans have their own advantages and disadvantages... It's a matter of preference... Their are many Can users who would never switch to a pair of speakers, as they much prefer the sound of Cans...


As for the "next gen" of audiophilliacs, will they ever know what its like to build a receiver from a kit?

Some do... There are many DIYers on Head-Fi...

[Feanor]

It's the same (well mine is probably a more civilized reaction) that you see when some clown tells another audiophile that his carefully researched, auditioned, setup and expensive Naim gear is not real Hi-Fi...

OR

That his B&W 802D are just overpriced mass market junk that can be bettered by a $2K set of PSB speakers or a pair of Maggie MMGs....

OR

That his $30K CD Player has a harsh digital sound that could be bettered by a $1K turntable....

OR

That his reference Tube Integrated Amp is crap, because it don't measure as well as a cheap Solid State Receiver...

Trying to define High End as being limited to our individual sonic preferences is shear stupidity and is the cause of most disagreements I've seen between audiophiles...
...

Yes Cans have their own advantages and disadvantages... It's a matter of preference... Their are many Can users who would never switch to a pair of speakers, as they much prefer the sound of Cans...
...

Some do... There are many DIYers on Head-Fi...
It's a problem I have; the inability to politely nod and smile when people utter nonsense. It's been career-limiting for one thing.

Yes, I guess it is crassly rude to dismiss the supposed benefit of a person's gigabuck system as being a matter of taste or, worse, imagination. Civility is important. :o

Civility should perhaps be paramount when it comes to hifi systems but maybe not so much when it comes to global warning or healthcare.

[poppachubby]

It's the same (well mine is probably a more civilized reaction) that you see when some clown tells another audiophile that his carefully researched, auditioned, setup and expensive Naim gear is not real Hi-Fi...

OR

That his B&W 802D are just overpriced mass market junk that can be bettered by a $2K set of PSB speakers or a pair of Maggie MMGs....

OR

That his $30K CD Player has a harsh digital sound that could be bettered by a $1K turntable....

OR

That his reference Tube Integrated Amp is crap, because it don't measure as well as a cheap Solid State Receiver...

Trying to define High End as being limited to our individual sonic preferences is shear stupidity and is the cause of most disagreements I've seen between audiophiles...



Yes Cans have their own advantages and disadvantages... It's a matter of preference... Their are many Can users who would never switch to a pair of speakers, as they much prefer the sound of Cans...





None of these things are relevant here. I'm starting to think you enjoy being a martyr. It has been acknowledged that your set up is indeed hi-fi. I don't think the guy upgrading his Ipod headphones is hi-fi, whether he has a dac/amp or not. I also don't think that will particularily lead him anywhere or prompt him to buy anything later in life. We have agreed, our philosophies are different. Just like you don't want to hear about analog having a "soul", and want to see numbers and whatever else. Fine. Let's get back to the topic, the one that YOU posted.

You keep citing Head-Fi, but if you look at Head-Fi's numbers, they really aren't that encouraging. Approx. 115 000 members. Audioreview has 65 000, and we know they aren't all flag waving audiophiles. Head-Fi's percentages are probably even worse.

Even assuming that every single member of Head-Fi is a guerilla headphone enthusiast, against the population of even just the Americas.....so what!?! I think if you want numbers to satisfy your point, you should probably look at a place like Best Buy's receipts.

They have had a banner year, although I don't know how it breaks down in terms of sales. Headphones possibly? More likely cell phones and gadgets...

[Ajani]

None of these things are relevant here. I'm starting to think you enjoy being a martyr. It has been acknowledged that your set up is indeed hi-fi. I don't think the guy upgrading his Ipod headphones is hi-fi, whether he has a dac/amp or not. I also don't think that will particularily lead him anywhere or prompt him to buy anything later in life. We have agreed, our philosophies are different. Just like you don't want to hear about analog having a "soul", and want to see numbers and whatever else. Fine. Let's get back to the topic, the one that YOU posted.

You keep citing Head-Fi, but if you look at Head-Fi's numbers, they really aren't that encouraging. Approx. 115 000 members. Audioreview has 65 000, and we know they aren't all flag waving audiophiles. Head-Fi's percentages are probably even worse.

Even assuming that every single member of Head-Fi is a guerilla headphone enthusiast, against the population of even just the Americas.....so what!?! I think if you want numbers to satisfy your point, you should probably look at a place like Best Buy's receipts.

They have had a banner year, although I don't know how it breaks down in terms of sales. Headphones possibly? More likely cell phones and gadgets...

My point was fine... since, my reply that Pix was commenting on, occurred well before your backtrack 'acknowledgment' that my setup is hifi...

Your initial comment that I took issue with was:


My comments are simple. Sure. OK. A dac and headphones can be considered Hi-Fi. But I find it ironic for someone like yourself, who reveres this hobby so much, to really beleive that this is good enough.

Since my setup is a DAC and Headphones, It is obvious to anyone why I would be insulted by that post... So you shouldn't be acting shocked at my earlier reactions... Your post was as offensive to a DAC/Headphone user like myself, as the examples I cited earlier about Naim, B&W, CD Players and Tubes would be to their respective owners...

My points have all been made regarding the next gen of audiophiles, and anyone is free to agree or disagree with them as they please... But there is nothing left for you and I to debate... You see Doom and Gloom, while I'm embracing a bright future in Hi-Fi... Almost everyday I see more hi-fi products and new albums that are tempting me to empty my wallet... So as far as I'm concerned, these are great times....

[RGA]

People often say things on forums they would not say in real life - the forum is not the best place for discussion - a face to face discussion is best. The internet is the end of the art of human interaction.

As for headphones - and many topics in hi-fi - I do not see why we have to get into "either or" scenarios. Vinyl or CD debates - tons of music is on each format and not available on the other. So rather than worry if a Rega P3 at $700 is better than a CD player at $1500 - just buy BOTH technologies to the level you're comfortable with and do not make proclamations about the superiority of one over the other until you have heard the finest examples of both.

With headphones - they offer a different sound. The great thing about them though is they get around the foibles that many beginning audiophiles suffer. Young people often don't have the financial resources to dedicate a room to audio spending large on a high end system with room treatments. The headphone has no room issues - you can listen in the worst room in the world and you get the same results.

You can listen wherever whenever and as loud as you like.

I am a headphone buff and while in Korea was able to listen to some amazing headphone systems including my second go around with the Stax Omega II and Orpheus set-ups. The AKG 1000 I auditioned at Soundhounds and they connected it up to a Wyatech Labs SET amplifier.

It's simply with the headphones I don't feel the need to spend that much money but some do and that's fine.

I enjoy the more budget headphone systems because for me I use the headphones more when I'm not at home or traveling for long periods. What I demanded from a home stereo was that on sound quality it must beat the HD 600s/Grado RS1, AKG 700s of the world. Very few systems do - they need to be as clear in the listening chair and have the bass treble and resolution etc. Thus headphones can also serve as a check when buying a stereo.

I think you're money goes much further with headphones. Buy a good USB headphone amplifier/DAC and a nice set of headphone and for under a grand you can probably get to where most $5k systems only dream of getting to. That said if you like having parties and guests over to listen to some tunes you need the stereo.

I am going to the CES in Vegas - and I know I want to stop by and here the new flagship Senns and AKG's (I still wish they didn't get rid of the AKG 1000. It's not the tamest thing I've heard - but it is open and has a level of "impact" sound that is different from most cans I've heard. Butt ugly though.

[Ajani]

People often say things on forums they would not say in real life - the forum is not the best place for discussion - a face to face discussion is best. The internet is the end of the art of human interaction.

As for headphones - and many topics in hi-fi - I do not see why we have to get into "either or" scenarios. Vinyl or CD debates - tons of music is on each format and not available on the other. So rather than worry if a Rega P3 at $700 is better than a CD player at $1500 - just buy BOTH technologies to the level you're comfortable with and do not make proclamations about the superiority of one over the other until you have heard the finest examples of both.

With headphones - they offer a different sound. The great thing about them though is they get around the foibles that many beginning audiophiles suffer. Young people often don't have the financial resources to dedicate a room to audio spending large on a high end system with room treatments. The headphone has no room issues - you can listen in the worst room in the world and you get the same results.

You can listen wherever whenever and as loud as you like.

I am a headphone buff and while in Korea was able to listen to some amazing headphone systems including my second go around with the Stax Omega II and Orpheus set-ups. The AKG 1000 I auditioned at Soundhounds and they connected it up to a Wyatech Labs SET amplifier.

It's simply with the headphones I don't feel the need to spend that much money but some do and that's fine.

I enjoy the more budget headphone systems because for me I use the headphones more when I'm not at home or traveling for long periods. What I demanded from a home stereo was that on sound quality it must beat the HD 600s/Grado RS1, AKG 700s of the world. Very few systems do - they need to be as clear in the listening chair and have the bass treble and resolution etc. Thus headphones can also serve as a check when buying a stereo.

I think you're money goes much further with headphones. Buy a good USB headphone amplifier/DAC and a nice set of headphone and for under a grand you can probably get to where most $5k systems only dream of getting to. That said if you like having parties and guests over to listen to some tunes you need the stereo.

I am going to the CES in Vegas - and I know I want to stop by and here the new flagship Senns and AKG's (I still wish they didn't get rid of the AKG 1000. It's not the tamest thing I've heard - but it is open and has a level of "impact" sound that is different from most cans I've heard. Butt ugly though.

Very well said RGA....

Another part of the appeal of headphones for many young persons is the ability to experiment... While I'd be afraid to drop say $2K on a low powered tube/class A amp to drive speakers, I'd have no problem trying out a $300 tube/class A headphone amp...

Interestingly, your point about needing a home stereo setup that beats the HD 600s/Grado RS1, AKG 700s of the world, is one of the major issues that has prevented me from buying another home stereo so far... I know that the only setups I've heard that sound as good or better than my existing headphone rig, greatly exceed my existing budget...

So even though I now have the freedom and room to setup a stereo again... I really don't want to buy something below the quality of my headphone rig, else I won't use it that often (like my M-Audio active speakers which I pretty much use as background music/when guests come over - while they sound fantastic for the price, they are nowhere near the same quality as my cans)...

I think we need to stop debating what is real hi-fi (as we all have our preferences) and just enjoy that there are so many alternatives.... Nothing (well, other than money :p ) prevents someone from enjoying both a CD Player and a Turntable... or even a powerful Krell Integrated and a low powered SET amp... Headphones and Speakers...

[Ajani]

People often say things on forums they would not say in real life - the forum is not the best place for discussion - a face to face discussion is best. The internet is the end of the art of human interaction.

I forgot to address this point... Yes, sometimes people are more 'extreme' with their opinions online than in real life... but another major factor is that people often neglect to re-read their e-mails/posts before they click 'send'.... Sometimes what you think you've said in a message is totally different from what you've actually said...

[Happy Camper]

I'd like to weigh in on the headphone vs speaker debate.

Two different tools and two different presentations.

I've lived with my current speaker setup for some 12 years. I love my speaker rig. But I find myself going to listen to my headphones more. It confines sound to my listening area and the details are as good without the db needed for speakers. Less power consumed and just as satisfied when I shut down the gear for bed.

Point is headphone listening has gained a lot of ground in high fidelity. High powered headphone amps fed from a dedicated DAC/CDP/TT will put many a speaker to shame in all but soundstage. If I were starting in the hobby again, I would get a rig set up for headphones while I'm getting through school. That way you could get a decent source and enjoy high fidelity while building your earning power. When you get the space and bucks for a speaker rig, you will know what high end sound is.

The normal Joe wouldn't spend $2000 for an amp and $2000 for a quality source to drive a $200 headphone. Don't let the price fool you, SQ value is higher with headphones.

[poppachubby]

I forgot to address this point... Yes, sometimes people are more 'extreme' with their opinions online than in real life... but another major factor is that people often neglect to re-read their e-mails/posts before they click 'send'.... Sometimes what you think you've said in a message is totally different from what you've actually said...

Yawn....hang on, let me check that. I thought you might have something interesting to say about the OP, indeed, we are done.

[Ajani]

I'd like to weigh in on the headphone vs speaker debate.

Two different tools and two different presentations.

I've lived with my current speaker setup for some 12 years. I love my speaker rig. But I find myself going to listen to my headphones more. It confines sound to my listening area and the details are as good without the db needed for speakers. Less power consumed and just as satisfied when I shut down the gear for bed.

Point is headphone listening has gained a lot of ground in high fidelity. High powered headphone amps fed from a dedicated DAC/CDP/TT will put many a speaker to shame in all but soundstage. If I were starting in the hobby again, I would get a rig set up for headphones while I'm getting through school. That way you could get a decent source and enjoy high fidelity while building your earning power. When you get the space and bucks for a speaker rig, you will know what high end sound is.

Well yes... Headphones allow you to really build a "source first" speaker setup if you like... Since you can combine a high quality (possibly expensive) source with high quality (though relatively cheap) headphones and headphone amp... So if you make the move to speakers then you already have a great source to start with... as opposed to splitting money on relatively cheap source/Integrated/Speakers when you first start... and having to upgrade all of them as you upgrade...


The normal Joe wouldn't spend $2000 for an amp and $2000 for a quality source to drive a $200 headphone. Don't let the price fool you, SQ value is higher with headphones.

Yes, though you can spend $2K on source and use a $200 - $500 Headphone Amp (no need for $2K for a headphone amp, unless you are really aiming for state of the art- in which case you'd want to upgrade to more expensive headphones)....

[Ajani]

It's a problem I have; the inability to politely nod and smile when people utter nonsense. It's been career-limiting for one thing.

Yes, I guess it is crassly rude to dismiss the supposed benefit of a person's gigabuck system as being a matter of taste or, worse, imagination. Civility is important. :o

Civility should perhaps be paramount when it comes to hifi systems but maybe not so much when it comes to global warning or healthcare.

Civility aids any discussion... whether hifi or global warming... One of the reasons why organisations like PETA have such a hard time, is that many people just regard them as obnoxious @$$holes... and so their entire message gets ignored...

In hifi it tends to be even worse, since it really all just comes down to what sounds good to the individual... There are many persons who claim turntables are better than CDs, but that means nothing to persons who prefer the sound of CDs... In such a case there really is nothing to debate... so a drawn out, heated argument about why Vinyl or CD sounds better is just an exercise in frustration...

It would be like you and I engaging in a debate about whether Revel or Magnepan sounds better... Nothing you say will convince me that Magnepan sounds better... and unless you prefer the sound of Revels, then no argument I present would convince you to ditch the Maggies... There is no right or wrong, just a matter of individual tastes... We might as well argue about whether barbeque chicken tastes better than a hamburger...