My first impressions of the Denon DP-300f

[manlystanley]

I've had my Denon DP-300f for a few days and have been playing all kinds of records on it. So far, I have mixed opinions, mainly because (I think) the cartridge is not the best. But here's my very humble assessment:

-- It looks drop dead gorgeous. The black metal finish is really eye catching.

-- I like the fully automatic functionality. I understand that 'really good' turntables tend to be manual, but I just like being able to: Put on a record and go back to vegging on the coach. No thinking invoked....... (burp, pass the junk food please)

-- The lever on the tone arm that manually raises and lowers the arm is nice, but I like a button in front better.

-- I've followed noob's advice and tried lowering the adjustments from: Two, to 1.75, to 1.5, to 1.25, and finally to 1. I found that I like 1.5 the best. But, the sound is still not as clear as I would hope. (I'll be getting a Shure SFG-2 tracking force gauge that nobb recommended and then be able to more accurately figure out the actual force).

-- The biggest problem that I have with the table is that on at least two records, the last two tracks sounded 'fuzzy', Not warm, but fuzzy. These are all really old records so I'm not sure if it is problems with the records or the table? I need to check this out more.


As a couple of questions:

1.) I got the Magic Eraser that was recommended to me, do I wet the eraser before I dip the stylus into it? Of just do it dry?

2.) Like I said above, on two records, the turntable sounded fuzzy when it get to the last two tracks of the record. Could this be a problem with the turntable??

Best Regards,
Stan

[poppachubby]

It could be your alignment, but more likely the vinyl is dirty. Perhaps your cleaning process is not considering the inside portion enough.

Stan, did the table come with the cartridge attached? Just be aware that the cartridge you are using has an ideal counterweight value. You can tweak it a touch, but as far as just picking a value goes, it's really non-optional.

I'm not sure what noob told you but I can assure you, he wouldn't steer you wrong. Perhaps a misunderstanding? If the weight is too heavy or too light you can do damage to both your LP and your stylus.

Have you done anything to establish your tracking force?

Without a gauge...

1) Protect the stylus if you can, slide the guard over it.

2) Make sure the table has no power and won't start spinning during your adjustment

3) Remove the arm from its rest position and lower the arm-elevater lever

4) Now...using the counter weight, reduce the weight until the arm is "floating". It should seem level and not favoring either side. A good test of this, when you think you've found the spot, is to lightly tap each end. It should return to its floating position after some movement.

5) This is Zero. Set your counterweight value now.

6) Now you can set the weight to 1.5 - 2.0. This is where most carts live. I wouldn't suggest much more than 0.5 in either direction of 2.0.

I hope this is explained in enough detail Stan. It's quite easy, but since the table is new to you, it'll take a while before you know it in and out. Definitely get a gauge.

[manlystanley]

I'm not sure what noob told you but I can assure you, he wouldn't steer you wrong. Perhaps a misunderstanding? If the weight is too heavy or too light you can do damage to both your LP and your stylus.



Ekkk.... I must have seriously miss-wrote my last e-mail. Nobb, is approaching sainthood in my book. Extremely knowledgeable and very helpful. Besides that, he is such a nice guy. I was just asking some questions about this particular table. Also, trying to understand some problems that I heard. So, PLEASE, understand that I'm NOT being critical of him.

I am very new to vinyl and so am just asking lots of questions.

All the reviews of the Denon turntable have all indicated that the included cartridge is the weakest part. And saint noob, has provided me with a complete list (and review) of best cartridges to use. So, my sincere apologies to Noob. I can see how my comments could be seen as being critical and that is my fault.

I've gotten so much from people like you and noob that I'm trying (in my limited way) to return the favor.

Best Regards,
Stan

[poppachubby]

Stan, Stan, Stan....I didn't think you were being critical for a minute! I meant just what I wrote. I'm not sure how noob has advised you to set up your cart and tracking force. I don't want to seem like I'm stepping on his toes, advice wise, or trying to confuse you by telling you contrary stuff.

It's probably best that one person guide you along, and noob is one of AR's finest. Stan, I think the fact that there's not a mean bone in your body, comes off of your posts really evidently.

So enough of that and back to your table. Are you confident enough to try and set the force, in the steps I provided? If you're patient, and work to find that perfect balance point, you'll be close to accurate.

[02audionoob]

Chubbs...what I recommended on tracking force is in Stan's PL-740 thread, posts #50 and #52:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=31741&page=3

I recommended trying 1.75g. We'll probably be more effective helping Stan if we keep future discussion of the DP-300F here, though.


Stan...Magic Eraser should be left dry. Just use the cueing lever to dunk the stylus on it. Inner groove distortion is common. Sometimes it's cartridge alignment. Sometimes it's the cutting of the record. The margin for error is less on the area where the groove radius is tighter and slower. Many of the better cartridges are able to overcome more of that than others.

[poppachubby]

Right on, ya I didn't think you'd advise 1.0. What do you think about Stan taking a shot at the TF? Good chance it's horribly out of wack. The dial has probably spun around 12 times between shipping and unpacking.

[02audionoob]

I've often seen where people don't realize you have to adjust the tonearm to float deal level and the zero out the dial before you adjust tracking force. At the time of the PL-740 thread, I felt like recommending a tracking force gauge because I believe it's the best long-term solution. Until it arrives, though, a discussion about the procedure surely won't hurt anything.

[manlystanley]

I recommended trying 1.75g. We'll probably be more effective helping Stan if we keep future discussion of the DP-300F here, though.


Hey Noob,
Yep, you gave me good advice. I was just experimenting between 1-2. I did the balance thing, but I'll make sure that I did it correctly sometime soon (by following your and Chubbs procedure).

BTW, I moved the thread to this forum because it was no longer talking about vintage stuff. I should have posted a note on the vintage thread. Hope it did not confuse anyone.

I'm the program manager for a new system and I've got more problems then a one armed paper-hanger. So, I don't have much time to have fun with my system. But, I'm teleworking tomorrow and I hope to play with it during lunch.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Chubbs annd Noob, Got home late last night and tried out your advice. Found out that the arm was a little off and so I balanced it and got the 1.75 point.

Then tried playing multiple records. What I found was the fuzzyness that I heard was not just the end of some records but on all of them (got to get my ears aligned). Played around some and found out that this fuzzyness was just on old 1940/1950 records. The newer ones played very, very good.

The player is still to warm for my tastes, but I'm sure that's (and all the reviews concur) that it's the cartridge. So, I'm very pleased. Thanks Noob!

I'm thinking about the Denon DL-110. Or maybe the Denon DL-160. But that will to wait some. I've spent a boat load of money this past month.

Best Regards,
Stan

[poppachubby]

Good stuff Stan, glad you're happy. It only gets better...

[02audionoob]

Stan...the fuzziness on the old 1940/1950's records is common with stereo cartridges on the old mono records with bigger grooves. If you have a stereo/mono switch in your system, be sure it's on mono. A cartridge with a bigger stylus could help for that. I've ordered a 1.0 mil spherical stylus for my Ortofon cartridge to experiment with this issue. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[manlystanley]

Stan...the fuzziness on the old 1940/1950's records is common with stereo cartridges on the old mono records with bigger grooves. If you have a stereo/mono switch in your system, be sure it's on mono. A cartridge with a bigger stylus could help for that. I've ordered a 1.0 mil spherical stylus for my Ortofon cartridge to experiment with this issue. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Please do! I'll be interested to find out your results.

Best Regards,
Stan

[manlystanley]

Stan, I think the fact that there's not a mean bone in your body.

Note to self: Self, next time I'm in a fight with my wife bring out the big guns, say: "We'll Chubbs thinks 'there's not a mean bone in [my] body.'.

Awww.... Its good to have heavy artillery in my back pocket......

[poppachubby]

Ya just tell her to call me up, I have your references available.

[02audionoob]

Well, Stan...I've been giving the girls a spin with my new Ortofon Pro S stylus...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2511/4177096134_dc83ae8d68.jpg

Oops...sorry, Ella, for the unequal exposure...

I must say I like this for my mono records and older ones in less-than-great condition. That sound of bacon frying in the background has been reduced and the sound quality is still nice. It's a tiny bit fuzzy by comparison to my Audio Technica cartridge, so there's a trade-off.

I couldn't compare the Pro S to my elliptical stylus on the same Ortofon cartridge, though...the diamond fell off the elliptical. It was original to my old Technics turntable but had played only a very few times before it was replaced with an upgrade. I might try the Ortofon 20 stylus that replaced it, but that one is old, too.

In any case, I'm sure my Marantz receiver is appreciating the exercise rocking the Technics. Maybe one of these days I'll try the Pro S and Technics with the tube amp.

[frenchmon]

Question noob. Over on another forum there is an argument about the Techics TT SL1200 being a better player than the entry level Regas and Music Halls, Denons and Pro-Jects players. Did you have the SL1200? Whats your take?

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

Question noob. Over on another forum there is an argument about the Techics TT SL1200 being a better player than the entry level Regas and Music Halls, Denons and Pro-Jects players. Did you have the SL1200? Whats your take?

frenchmon

My Technics is the SL-7, which is a direct-drive linear-tracking turntable. I've heard the SL-1200 in a hi-fi system, as opposed to a DJ system, but not in my own system.

On AA and AK if you ask a question or post a thought about a Rega, Music Hall or Pro-Ject (or even a Dual, Thorens or Denon) belt-drive turntable you will inevitably get a response from an SL-1200 fan, saying that you should throw away the belt-drive and get a Technics SL-1200, preferably modified by KAB. There was a member at AK who recently asked for recommendations on a fully-automatic turntable that plays 33/45/78 and costs less than $550. Most of the responses were to get an SL-1200, without mention that (a) it's manual, (b) it would have to be modded by KAB to play 78 and (c) the modded SL-1200 costs $749.

I once started a thread at AK asking for thoughts on how to eliminate a noise in my Music Hall MMF-5's motor and I think the first "suggestion" was to buy an SL-1200. I saw a thread at AA asking for the best turntable between $2,000 and $4,000 not made by VPI. He had owned every VPI table and wanted to try something else. There were at least 2 replies I recall insisting the SL-1200 couldn't be topped in that range.

In order to defend their position, the SL-1200 fans usually cite specifications (like wow and flutter) and the fact that it weighs 30 pounds. If they're such fans of spec's, it seems like they'd just get a CD player. I'll admit the Technics is a nice turntable and sounds good. I wouldn't take one over my MMF-5.

[frenchmon]

I guess when it all boils down...its what you like. Personally, I dont like the looks of the 1200. I think the MMF-5 is a nice looking TT with its double stack. Do you have the MMF SE?

frenchmon

[02audionoob]

I don't care for the looks of the SL-1200, either. There are a few turntables closely modeled after the 1200's looks, too. I have just the plain MMF-5.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2515/4105892701_2939ffb756.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2784/4105893057_cba09f72c8.jpg

[frenchmon]

That's a beauty. Love that platter.

frenchmon

[hifitommy]

they look ok to me, i have had the SL120 (armless 1200) with a grace 707 arm and whereas i liked it, better sound came from other subsequent TTs including my sota sapphire/mmt.

the 1200s arent a bad deal at their price but the arm is a bit massive and may be a weak link. theres lots of 1200 fans, and they LOVE 'em. they are a joy to use, and changeable headshells are easy to love (i love my mmt for that).

its just that more refined sound can be had at that price and of course, way above. there are few truly high end direct drive TTs. things get really good with belt/air bearing tables/arms but those are usually VERY pricey.

i still have my kenwood kd500/grace 707 and its a joy to use. i must mount my f9e on it soon and use it.