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blackraven
11-29-2009, 06:02 PM
I was just at the Ultimate Electronic store today picking up a remote car starter and I asked the salesman how BlueRay player sales were going. He stated that they were selling 40-50 players a day .They had toshiba players selling for $127.

Also, Walmart is selling a Magnavox player for $79.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-29-2009, 08:43 PM
When you start seeing your disc going for $3.99 in the bargain bin of big box stores, you really should start playing taps, and planning the burial.

Mr Peabody
11-29-2009, 08:53 PM
I wonder how the performance of those cheap players are. I was not impressed with the Samsung BD-1500. It could be to the point where good upsampling DVD players compare favorably to a cheap BD player and Blu-ray could defeat their purpose.

blackraven
11-29-2009, 11:41 PM
I wonder how the performance of those cheap players are. I was not impressed with the Samsung BD-1500. It could be to the point where good upsampling DVD players compare favorably to a cheap BD player and Blu-ray could defeat their purpose.


Last months Consumer Reports magazine reviewed many of the low cost BD players and gave them all high marks for BR picture quality. I think that the people that buy the low cost players won't know or care about any significant difference in picture quality. Most will own cheaper HDTV's.

poppachubby
11-30-2009, 02:48 AM
Been thinking about Blu-Ray myself. I want to buy a new player. If Blu-Ray plays DVD, I figure why not?

Worf101
11-30-2009, 05:23 AM
If things keep going as they are, you'll have little choice. DVD player production might be left to the halt the lame and asian knock-off if all the major players continue dropping production of the format's players.

Worf

Invader3k
11-30-2009, 06:32 AM
Just picked up a BD player for my parents as a Christmas gift. Nice Samsung unit at Best Buy for $150. It will replace their 10+ year old Toshiba unit (one of the first units that boasted a component video output) that will move to my mom's office. They will probably mainly watch DVDs on it still, but should look better than the old Toshiba unit.

I think that is what will happen for a lot of consumers...the BD players will be so cheap, they'll just replace their old DVD players with a BD player that makes their DVDs look better anyway.

frahengeo
11-30-2009, 07:08 AM
For me, the pricing of blu-ray titles are at an acceptable level. $20 for new releases is definitely doable compared to the $35 price point not long ago.
Also, I just picked up 13 titles for $10 or less each. Gotta love it.

BadAssJazz
11-30-2009, 08:03 AM
For me, the pricing of blu-ray titles are at an acceptable level.

In my mind, pricing and availability both sound the death knell for DVD...and with The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly released in a Blu Ray format, the fat lady is definitely warming up her pipes. She can blow full throat if they release Cyrano de Bergerac or Car Wash on Blu Ray.

blackraven
11-30-2009, 11:42 AM
If things keep going as they are, you'll have little choice. DVD player production might be left to the halt the lame and asian knock-off if all the major players continue dropping production of the format's players.

Worf


Oppo has stopped selling their DVD players!

pixelthis
11-30-2009, 11:59 AM
Oppo has stopped selling their DVD players!

Thats the canary in the coal mine.
I said DVD was dead some time ago, but I thought it was going to be more gradual,
but this is like the trouncing LASER received.
More important than the players, there was a TON of BLU discs at BEST BUY.
Some for 9.99.
Start sounding TAPS for DVD.:1:

BadAssJazz
11-30-2009, 12:07 PM
One wonders how long Blu Ray will survive. A quick inventory of my viewing habits...I usually opt for online streaming for most of the Netflix stuff. No, not nearly the PQ or audio quality of Blu Ray, but in terms of convenience, or for those of us who simply do not have the space to house a BR collection, it's not bad. If they'd only invest some real ducats into the technology, maybe we'd have something truly remarkable. Or not.

bobsticks
11-30-2009, 02:48 PM
When you start seeing your disc going for $3.99 in the bargain bin of big box stores, you really should start playing taps, and planning the burial.

Yup, yup...not to mention all those Red Box thingies in the lobbies of the BBS's....those things are great for sampling movies that are "on the cusp".
Example: I'm a Liam Neeson fan, knew immediately that I would pay top dollar to get Taken On a lark my gf's daughter decides she wants to see UP! that new animated dealio...horrible, horrible movie...she hated it, the gf hated it, I hated it...glad I rented it for just a few bucks instead of buying the BR.

I suspect DVD will hang on for a bit longer than some folks think.

Woochifer
11-30-2009, 03:07 PM
If things keep going as they are, you'll have little choice. DVD player production might be left to the halt the lame and asian knock-off if all the major players continue dropping production of the format's players.

Worf

yep, pretty much the same thing has happened with standalone CD players. There's a whole thread on Linn's recent decision to drop CD player production, but aside from Sony, it seems that most of the CE giants stopped making standalone CD players a while ago.

Oppo's decision to stop making DVD players is just the first of many such announcements to come. Denon has now pared their DVD player lineup down to just two mid level models, and eliminated all of their high end players. There's simply no market for high end DVD players because the consumers that would spend more than $200 on a DVD player are spending that budget on Blu-ray instead.

The prices on entry level DVD players from brand name manufacturers have been stuck around $60 for a few years now. That's already commodity-price range, and it's not that far from the $150 street prices you now see for brand name Blu-ray players. There's no question that Blu-ray player prices will continue to tumble throughout 2010. As the street prices dip below $100 in the next year, the rationale for continuing to produce (and purchase) low margin DVD players also erodes.

So, indeed this means the remainder of the DVD hardware market will indeed go to those knockoff brands. But, that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it simply means that the broader market will have already transitioned over to the higher quality Blu-ray format.

bobsticks
11-30-2009, 03:11 PM
yep, pretty much the same thing has happened with standalone CD players. There's a whole thread on Linn's recent decision to drop CD player production, but aside from Sony, it seems that most of the CE giants stopped making standalone CD players a while ago.

Oppo's decision to stop making DVD players is just the first of many such announcements to come. Denon has now pared their DVD player lineup down to just two mid level models, and eliminated all of their high end players. There's simply no market for high end DVD players because the consumers that would spend more than $200 on a DVD player are spending that budget on Blu-ray instead.

The prices on entry level DVD players from brand name manufacturers have been stuck around $60 for a few years now. That's already commodity-price range, and it's not that far from the $150 street prices you now see for brand name Blu-ray players. There's no question that Blu-ray player prices will continue to tumble throughout 2010. As the street prices dip below $100 in the next year, the rationale for continuing to produce (and purchase) low margin DVD players also erodes.

So, indeed this means the remainder of the DVD hardware market will indeed go to those knockoff brands. But, that's not necessarily a bad thing, because it simply means that the broader market will have already transitioned over to the higher quality Blu-ray format.

All of this is true, especially regarding hi-end product, but, let us not forget how many people watch DVDs on computers and gamig systems....so, I agree with your assessment of the hardware situation but still feel the format will stagger on for some time...

...hell, you can still find VHS at truckstops, lol...

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-30-2009, 03:24 PM
All of this is true, especially regarding hi-end product, but, let us not forget how many people watch DVDs on computers and gamig systems....so, I agree with your assessment of the hardware situation but still feel the format will stagger on for some time...

...hell, you can still find VHS at truckstops, lol...

With hardware sales up 125%, and disc sales up 187% from last years, the format is hardly staggering. 2010 is when the format will really pop.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-30-2009, 03:26 PM
Yup, yup...not to mention all those Red Box thingies in the lobbies of the BBS's....those things are great for sampling movies that are "on the cusp".
Example: I'm a Liam Neeson fan, knew immediately that I would pay top dollar to get Taken On a lark my gf's daughter decides she wants to see UP! that new animated dealio...horrible, horrible movie...she hated it, the gf hated it, I hated it...glad I rented it for just a few bucks instead of buying the BR.

I suspect DVD will hang on for a bit longer than some folks think.

How can anyone hate the movie UP? Are you sure you two were not in a bad mood that night or day?

bobsticks
11-30-2009, 07:54 PM
How can anyone hate the movie UP? Are you sure you two were not in a bad mood that night or day?

We'll accept that as a theory my brotha...

Mr Peabody
11-30-2009, 08:34 PM
I tell you where a backlash may be, that's with firmware updating. As I sat down with the wife to watch Drag Me To Hell, a fine piece of theatrical treasure, which she picked out I might add, any way I digress, I popped it into the 7003 only to have it go black screen on me after the pirate warning and all that crap. I checked the website and sure enough a new firmware was available as of 11/10. After updating the player I was enjoying top shelf entertainment like eye balls appearing in harvest cake and Academy Award potential acting in no time. I wonder how well Joe 6-pak will deal with this? Also, how readily available will updates be with cheap brands? I'm really surprised I don't hear more about this. I wonder if people are saying "oh, it won't play it" and just getting the DVD or are more people tech savvy than I think?

BadAssJazz
11-30-2009, 09:36 PM
I tell you where a backlash may be, that's with firmware updating. As I sat down with the wife to watch Drag Me To Hell, a fine piece of theatrical treasure, which she picked out I might add, any way I digress, I popped it into the 7003 only to have it go black screen on me after the pirate warning and all that crap. I checked the website and sure enough a new firmware was available as of 11/10. After updating the player I was enjoying top shelf entertainment like eye balls appearing in harvest cake and Academy Award potential acting in no time. I wonder how well Joe 6-pak will deal with this? Also, how readily available will updates be with cheap brands? I'm really surprised I don't hear more about this. I wonder if people are saying "oh, it won't play it" and just getting the DVD or are more people tech savvy than I think?

I shouldn't be surprised, but nevertheless I usually am when I pop in a blu ray title only to discover a stability issue. Every technology goes through these sorts of growing pains, but I doubt that Joe 6-pack has the patience for that sort of thing. I barely do, and I'm now on my, what, third or fourth Blu Ray player.

Even more alarming is how some sales persons are pushing the compatibility of Blu Ray players with standard DVD's without also conveying some of the issues and curtailing expectations. Nothing will tick the common man off more than a sin of omission or a bold face lie. A friend of mine -- a layman if ever there was one -- purchased an LG blu ray player on sale, loved the blu ray performance for the most part, but was extremely upset upon discovering that it took his DVD's much longer to load and the PQ wasn't nearly as good as his "reference" DVD player (by that I mean the el cheapo DVD player that he was used to using).

You can guess how this story ends. He returned the LG Blu Ray player and bought more standard DVD movies for his collection. If DVD doesn't die, it will be because of guys like him. You'll have to pry the last DVD from his cold, dead fingers.

Woochifer
11-30-2009, 10:48 PM
All of this is true, especially regarding hi-end product, but, let us not forget how many people watch DVDs on computers and gamig systems....so, I agree with your assessment of the hardware situation but still feel the format will stagger on for some time...

...hell, you can still find VHS at truckstops, lol...

I think next year will be when the Blu-ray disc prices begin inching down closer to the DVD levels. Right now, BDs already account for 20-30% of the sales for new releases, which is where the studios make their money (the Blu-ray sales for Star Trek accounted for 38%, and supposedly over half of the sales for the new extended edition of Watchmen). With the format now in its 4th year, you also have more older titles, and those are the ones that have already gone into the sub-$10 price tiers.

The DVD format will indeed survive for at least a few more years -- there's a glut of low priced product sitting on store shelves. It's now a low end movie-only product. Those feature packed special editions are getting phased out, and even the two-disc DVD sets often leave out items that are included with the Blu-ray versions.

If Blu-ray continues its accelerated growth, it's inevitable that the DVD format will eventually take a back seat to Blu-ray. It took the DVD format more than six years before it displaced VHS. But, once that happened, the studios and retailers began to rapidly phase VHS out. The DVD format took over the sales lead in 2003, and the final VHS movie release (Borat) came out in 2006. The last standalone VCRs were discontinued in 2007.

Those items you see at the truck stops were produced years ago (frankly, I haven't seen any VHS tapes sold through those channels in quite a while) and passed through several hands before they wound up in those truck stop bins. I recall a NY Times article from a couple of years indicating that only one company still distributed VHS movies, and those were all bulk items purchased through liquidation sales and auctions. The company said that they still had some demand, but were planning to get out of the business soon.

I think in less than four years, none of the brand name manufacturers will make standalone DVD players anymore. It will all be Blu-ray. Of course, by that time the Blu-ray players will sell for the same commodity prices that DVD players currently sell for. It's when the hardware side hits that tipping point that you will see stores very quickly move DVD off the shelves and studios stop making new release DVDs. At that point, the last bastion of DVD sales very well might be those truck stop bins.

Woochifer
11-30-2009, 10:55 PM
I tell you where a backlash may be, that's with firmware updating. As I sat down with the wife to watch Drag Me To Hell, a fine piece of theatrical treasure, which she picked out I might add, any way I digress, I popped it into the 7003 only to have it go black screen on me after the pirate warning and all that crap. I checked the website and sure enough a new firmware was available as of 11/10. After updating the player I was enjoying top shelf entertainment like eye balls appearing in harvest cake and Academy Award potential acting in no time. I wonder how well Joe 6-pak will deal with this? Also, how readily available will updates be with cheap brands? I'm really surprised I don't hear more about this. I wonder if people are saying "oh, it won't play it" and just getting the DVD or are more people tech savvy than I think?

You don't hear more about it because it's not a huge issue. The firmware and player compatibility issues have been getting less and less frequent with every successive generation. At this point, Joe6p is hardly in the mix as far as Blu-ray goes, except maybe through the PS3 and that's by far the easiest BD player to update.

I don't think this is anymore an issue than it was with the early DVD players, which had problems with things like dual layer media, seamless branching, and DTS streaming. It took a few generations before those playback problems subsided. Unlike the current crop of BD players, many of those DVD players had to actually have the physical ROM chip swapped out if a firmware update was needed.

Hyfi
12-01-2009, 04:47 AM
...hell, you can still find VHS at truckstops, lol...

I still regularly use two VHS machines

Feanor
12-01-2009, 06:59 AM
How can anyone hate the movie UP? Are you sure you two were not in a bad mood that night or day?
I'm old, old, old, but the acclaim of these Disney/Pixar efforts get eludes me personally.

They vary for somewhat to utterly puerile -- OK for sub-teen children maybe, not adults. I just saw Ratatouille: I was disappointed even though my expectations were low.

Hyfi
12-01-2009, 11:16 AM
I'm old, old, old, but the acclaim of these Disney/Pixar efforts get eludes me personally.

They vary for somewhat to utterly puerile -- OK for sub-teen children maybe, not adults. I just saw Ratatouille: I was disappointed even though my expectations were low.

Oddly, I am almost completely opposite to you. I am feeling that it's a damn shame when animated movies are better than those with actual people in them these days.

I just watched Horton Hears a Who again and I am amazed at the thought provoking content that children would not even come close to understanding, unless of course they are into quantum physics and have the understanding that the earth we live on is just a SPEC of dust in the big picture.

Feanor
12-01-2009, 11:57 AM
Oddly, I am almost completely opposite to you. I am feeling that it's a damn shame when animated movies are better than those with actual people in them these days.

....
But my point is the Disney/Pixar flicks aren't anywhere near as good as the reviews they get. I just don't see the charm in them, though they might appeal to children.

Maybe they're as good or better than the "people" films but that's beside the point.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-01-2009, 12:32 PM
We'll accept that as a theory my brotha...

Now you know I am just poken at ya? I know a few Disney folks that didn't care for it either!

rob_a
12-01-2009, 01:22 PM
I welcome the Blu-ray format, the quality is hands down better then DVD and with more people buying, this will give manufactures the incentive to continually updating the technology and work out the bugs.You also have the ability to use this machine to play your old DVDís, CD, ect, so it's a win win. I bought my BD player about 8 or 9 months ago and I have nothing but Love for it :thumbsup:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-01-2009, 01:33 PM
Oddly, I am almost completely opposite to you. I am feeling that it's a damn shame when animated movies are better than those with actual people in them these days.

I just watched Horton Hears a Who again and I am amazed at the thought provoking content that children would not even come close to understanding, unless of course they are into quantum physics and have the understanding that the earth we live on is just a SPEC of dust in the big picture.

I am not of the belief that animation these days is totally for kids. I love animation, and happen to have every animation title from all of the major studios, and some from European studios as well. A lot of the content on these titles are pretty sophisticated for a young child to understand, so I am not so sure it is totally directed towards them. I always found animation to be more "family" entertainment, not kids entertainment specifically.

Mr Peabody
12-01-2009, 07:12 PM
BAJ, you had four machines? Did you ever upgrade the firmware?

Wooch, I have never ever had a single DVD player I've owned, and that's plenty, need a firmware update. Some people may have but that's a totally different issue than what's going on with Blu-ray. Both of my Blu-ray players have had firmware updates and will continue to need them. Any one who has a Blu ray player will continually need to update the firmware. This is not a Hardware probblem, it's a software problem, caused by no Java standards. Frankly, at the cost it must take to keep the machines updated you'd think something would have been done about this before now. Any one who doesn't update their firmware will always have compatibility issues with certain discs. At this point Blu-ray and firmware updates are hand in hand if you want trouble free use.

frahengeo
12-01-2009, 07:27 PM
I am not of the belief that animation these days is totally for kids. I love animation, and happen to have every animation title from all of the major studios, and some from European studios as well. A lot of the content on these titles are pretty sophisticated for a young child to understand, so I am not so sure it is totally directed towards them. I always found animation to be more "family" entertainment, not kids entertainment specifically.

DEFINITELY not for kids only. Pixar movies, in particular, are so cleverly written and cater to both adults and children. Can't think of any particular lines, but I remember many instances where my wife and l were laughing pretty hard while my 7 year old son just looked at us in confusion. Pixar is a tier above the rest of the other animation releases (just my opinion of course).

02audionoob
12-01-2009, 08:58 PM
Cartoons have contained sophisticated levels of entertainment for many years. Have another look at Bugs Bunny, sometime.

Smokey
12-01-2009, 08:59 PM
I suspect DVD will hang on for a bit longer than some folks think.

I agree.

There are alot of programs out there that were taped in NTSC standard (480i) like old classic and sitcom TV shows, and DVD will be perfect medium for them. Also with stores like BigLots selling DVDs for $2.99, Bluray is still not on Joe6pack radar.

pixelthis
12-02-2009, 12:29 PM
I agree.

There are alot of programs out there that were taped in NTSC standard (480i) like old classic and sitcom TV shows, and DVD will be perfect medium for them. Also with stores like BigLots selling DVDs for $2.99, Bluray is still not on Joe6pack radar.

Peeps that go to big lots go to Walmart, and players are getting cheap.
As for most older TV shows,most were filmed, and were higher res than 480i,
and look a lot better on Blu, especially if they are cleaned up.
And there is the phenom whereby, after watching blu for awhile, you just wont buy
DVD at any price, pretty much what happened to VHS and LASER after the advent of
DVD.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-02-2009, 02:24 PM
Cartoons have contained sophisticated levels of entertainment for many years. Have another look at Bugs Bunny, sometime.

I have the entire Warner Brothers cartoon pack on DVD, but it is no match for the level of sophistication that some animation has today. I grew up on Bugs Bunny, but I got it. I am not so sure that I would "get it" with animation today if I was the same age as then. A title like Ratatoiulle would have went completely over my head as a kid. Cars would not have.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-02-2009, 02:39 PM
BAJ, you had four machines? Did you ever upgrade the firmware?

Wooch, I have never ever had a single DVD player I've owned, and that's plenty, need a firmware update. Some people may have but that's a totally different issue than what's going on with Blu-ray. Both of my Blu-ray players have had firmware updates and will continue to need them. Any one who has a Blu ray player will continually need to update the firmware. This is not a Hardware probblem, it's a software problem, caused by no Java standards. Frankly, at the cost it must take to keep the machines updated you'd think something would have been done about this before now. Any one who doesn't update their firmware will always have compatibility issues with certain discs. At this point Blu-ray and firmware updates are hand in hand if you want trouble free use.

Mr P. Firmware upgrades have quite frankly slowed quite a bit in the last year, especially compatibility firmware upgrades. Unfortunately you have a Samsung Bluray player, which IMO is the worst of the worst in terms of Bluray players. Samsung's players have unfortunately had more firmware upgrades than most all other players on the market (the new cheap players really don't have a track record yet). The PS3 firmware upgrades are for both gaming, and to improve what is already there. We have had zero compatibility upgrades in the last year, and that goes for Sony standalone's as well. Panasonic and Pioneer have not had any in the last year that I could recollect.

Bluray has had Java standards set from day one. That is not the problem here. The problem here is the Java kits purchased by the authoring companies didn't always match the standards set by the format. The kits are newer upgraded versions of previous kits which taxed the processing chips in some players.. Samsung players (especially their earlier models) tended to be the most poorly configured in terms of their chipset instructions, and have had to be updated consistently to correct these deficiencies.

Mr Peabody
12-02-2009, 07:21 PM
Well, what's interesting is it was my newer Marantz player that needed the firmware update and the movie actually played in my Samsung without an update. I don't know about the most recent generation of Pioneer but prior had massive firmware updates.

Look firmware is a fact of using Blu-ray at this point and it's better that people know about it and address it rather than thinking Blu-ray or a certain machine is a piece of crap. Especially, if the quirk can be fixed. No need to try and cover it up.

Here's a list from Bluray.com and there's a good number of updates dated 2009. And, it's not like you have to update daily or monthly. Time frames will vary with the unit and what's coming out. My Samsung actually has not been updated in quite a while.
http://www.blu-ray.com/firmware/

So as any one can see there's a **** load of firmware updates within the last year which includes a large numbers of manufactures. So, no, I'd say the firmware updates have not gone down and it is a significant factor in owning a Blu-ray player. I'd also say a wise person would take the time to check occasionally for updates to keep the machine updated and working without issues. Even Oppo is on there. How can you own the Oppo and not know that?

Woochifer
12-02-2009, 07:26 PM
Wooch, I have never ever had a single DVD player I've owned, and that's plenty, need a firmware update. Some people may have but that's a totally different issue than what's going on with Blu-ray. Both of my Blu-ray players have had firmware updates and will continue to need them. Any one who has a Blu ray player will continually need to update the firmware. This is not a Hardware probblem, it's a software problem, caused by no Java standards. Frankly, at the cost it must take to keep the machines updated you'd think something would have been done about this before now. Any one who doesn't update their firmware will always have compatibility issues with certain discs. At this point Blu-ray and firmware updates are hand in hand if you want trouble free use.

Did you actually own any of the first or second generation DVD players? Those were the ones that had the biggest issues with disc compatibility. I remember the reviews on this site of the early DVD players. Most of them cited major compatibility problems, and in many cases, the firmware could only be fixed by shipping the player back and replacing a ROM chip. Even the 4th generation Denon players had major problems. Sites like the DVD FAQ published long lists of DVD titles and which specific player models had playback problems with those titles.

From what I can see, you have two early generation Samsung BD players, which inherently raises the likelihood that you will have playback problems.

Your comments on the firmware are not generalizable because you're basing them on BD player models that are no longer made, and personal experience from a specific brand that has had an especially spotty track record on this issue. Someone who owns a PS3 or one of the more recent Panasonic models will have a very different experience.

Like I stated before, the newer models have not had the same issues with playback compatibility, and as Terrence pointed out, the firmware updates do not come out as frequently as before and now correct relatively minor issues. Joe6p is only now beginning to come into the Blu-ray market, right when the playback issues with the newer BD players have been largely resolved.


So as any one can see there's a **** load of firmware updates within the last year which includes a large numbers of manufactures. So, no, I'd say the firmware updates have not gone down and it is a significant factor in owning a Blu-ray player. I'd also say a wise person would take the time to check occasionally for updates to keep the machine updated and working without issues. Even Oppo is on there. How can you own the Oppo and not know that?

You've posted this site link before, and all that it confirms is that a firmware file is available for download, NOT how often it was updated or whether it fixes any major issues. It's a long list because the number of BD player models is itself a long list.

You do not know which firmware version come with the majority of production units for a particular model. And you don't know whether the production units started with firmware version 1.0 (I know that with computer motherboards, many of the firmware version numbers refer to internal test versions that never got released to the public). And just because a firmware update is out there does not mean that every consumer must inherently rush to update their players.

With Oppo, you're talking about a first generation BD player. Think any manufacturer got it perfect on the first try?

BadAssJazz
12-02-2009, 08:31 PM
BAJ, you had four machines? Did you ever upgrade the firmware?

No, never upgraded firmware on any of my units. I had one of the first Samsungs, followed by a trio of Panasonics.

I typically sell and upgrade components the minute that I hear the next series is due to be released. It doesn't have anything to do with the performance of a particular unit per se, but with my shopaholic upgrade-itis bent. But I think I'm slowing down now. In a perfect world, someone would produce a Blu-ray player that performs like the Oppo, but looks like the Pioneer Elite. I'm ashamed to admit it, but homogeneity is a factor with me these days.

Mr Peabody
12-02-2009, 08:42 PM
Wooch, you and Sir T argue for the sake of arguing or not wanting to admit even you can be mistaken. First you deny firmware updates are still out there and then when I prove you wrong there, then you want to down play the significance of them. The point is on that list is RECENT players and RECENT firmware updates. So what if Oppo is on the list or first gen, it's release was this year. Uh, just like some cheap players that are hittting this year and probably first gen as well, What's your point again? You all are trying to convince people, and foolishly I might add, that firmware updates aren't out there and if they are they aren't important. Oh, no, people shouldn't rush out and get an update, only if they want the machine to perform properly and have compatibility with recent movie releases.

Mr Peabody
12-02-2009, 09:14 PM
BAJ, you should take a look at the link I posted, Panasonic and Oppo are both there. Check your manual for how to update firmware. If I can do it any one should be able to. People like to pick on Samsung but they would actually send me the disc if I asked. Marantz wasn't any help at all. So I had to ask a lot of questions of others and learn how to download and burn to CD the update. My snag was I didn't realize the file was a zip file when downloaded. Couldn't understand why it wouldn't work. I can half smile at it now. So an addition of Winzip and a simple CD burning program and I was off. Oh, and the really fun part, Marantz has a sequence of buttons to push to tell the player to update. It's about 4 buttons. The manual says to push in 2 to 3 seconds, in actuality it was more like a blink of an eye. In the end I finally got it updated though. The second time the only problem I had was finding a disc my burner liked.

I was going to get a Pioneer BD51 but it is big and wouldn't fit in the space I had so I went with the Marantz. I notice you have a SVS as well. I am thrilled with mine.

Woochifer
12-02-2009, 09:48 PM
I agree.

Or you hope? At least until the BD player prices come down to current DVD player levels? :D The DVD format will be viable until it gets surpassed by Blu-ray. Some analysts are now projecting that will happen sometime in 2012.

At that point, the DVD's demise will be swift and decisive. The hardware will be all Blu-ray capable by that point, and retailers will not maintain dual disc inventories indefinitely. History bears this out. Look at how quickly VHS disappeared from store shelves after the DVD format took over the sales lead in 2003 (some retailers like Best Buy had already cut out their VHS titles well before then). It took only three years after that for the studios to abandon the format altogether, and most of their remaining inventory went out of print and into the hands of liquidators well before that.


There are alot of programs out there that were taped in NTSC standard (480i) like old classic and sitcom TV shows, and DVD will be perfect medium for them. Also with stores like BigLots selling DVDs for $2.99, Bluray is still not on Joe6pack radar.

But, that's a small minority of the total programming that sits in the studio archives. TV programs are a cheap way for the studios to get squeeze more revenue out of their libraries. TV DVD sets are generally not huge sellers, and most of them probably won't get re-released on Blu-ray anyway. DVD's the perfect medium, because for most TV series, that will be the ONLY medium.

Those $2.99 DVDs you see at Big Lots wound up at that price for a reason -- NOBODY WANTS THEM ANYMORE! Joe6p already rented them or bought them ages ago. Blu-ray is for the Joe6p's who have been buying HDTVs over the last couple of years (by the end of this holiday season, HDTV penetration is expected to be 50% to 60%).

Woochifer
12-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Wooch, you and Sir T argue for the sake of arguing or not wanting to admit even you can be mistaken. First you deny firmware updates are still out there and then when I prove you wrong there, then you want to down play the significance of them. The point is on that list is RECENT players and RECENT firmware updates.

And you seem to be posting this list repeatedly and suggesting that it means something significant, when it doesn't. The presence of a firmware file says absolutely nothing about how frequently it was updated or how significant the issues it remedies are. The Panasonic firmware update for the DMP-BD60 simply adds "BD-V" playback capability, while the firmware for the DMP-BD80 is still version 1.0.


So what if Oppo is on the list or first gen, it's release was this year. Uh, just like some cheap players that are hittting this year and probably first gen as well, What's your point again?

Since you seem to be ignoring my point, I'll say it again. Oppo is "on the list" because it is also "on the list" of BD players in production. EVERY major BD player model has the current firmware file on its manufacturer's website. In some cases it solves a problem, in other cases, it adds a new feature. And in other cases, it's no different than the firmware version that got loaded onto the production units.

This is Oppo's first attempt at a BD player. All of the other manufacturers have had at least three generations to iron out the bugs at their end. Even the cheap players are made by Funai, which has also issued at least three previous generations of its spec models. It took about that many generations for the early DVD player problems to get solved as well.


You all are trying to convince people, and foolishly I might add, that firmware updates aren't out there and if they are they aren't important.

Oh please. If you're going to accuse someone of arguing for argument's sake, why don't you try accurately representing what they said first.

Here's my original quote: "The firmware and player compatibility issues have been getting less and less frequent with every successive generation."

And here's my second quote: Like I stated before, the newer models have not had the same issues with playback compatibility, and as Terrence pointed out, the firmware updates do not come out as frequently as before and now correct relatively minor issues.

Where does it say that firmware updates "aren't out there" or "aren't important"? If you take issue with my statements, are actually you suggesting that the firmware updates and compatibility problems are just as bad now as they were three years ago? That would be foolish.


Oh, no, people shouldn't rush out and get an update, only if they want the machine to perform properly and have compatibility with recent movie releases.

YOU were the one wondering why you don't hear about compatibility issues anymore. And I simply stated the obvious in response -- you don't hear about it because it's not a major issue anymore. You seem to be the only one convinced that Blu-ray will fail because these Joe6p's won't install firmware updates. Y'know, updates that solve problems that the vast majority of newer BD player owners won't ever experience.

RGA
12-03-2009, 12:12 AM
I don't see any issues with BD players not being able to play DVD - some machines apparently are louder but they should be fine.

Blu Ray was handled well - the players are "backwards compatible" if DVD is backwards and so it makes buying a BD player painless.

I still like DVD's because the prices are dirt cheap and if it's not the kind of movie you care "that" much about it's not a bad deal to pick them up for $5 here or there.

My GF's father bought a Sony player recently and what bothered me more about it and my GF's LG player was how bloody SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW it was to just turn on and let the disc out and then read the disc and get going. Meanwhile the PS3 is lightning fast and the picture quality is identical to the stand alone player - and it plays games and doesn't cost much.

I'm not a huge gamer but I have to say when they advertise "it does everything" it pretty much does for the average user. I have never been a videophile to be honest with you but The PS3 is a very very tempting machine - I was screwing around with a baseball game on the thing and I was amazed at the graphics and detail of the whole thing. I can see why they're so popular. I have an old XBox that I bought for $40 (it pays to be one technology behind) because all the games are $5 - $20 used - and hey the games are all "new" to me. But the PS3 baseball game looks vastly better than the MVP2005 game I have.

Anyway, The PS3 plays the DVD's - it has apparently good upgrade paths, the picture quality is very good - and it plays games. Probably does a bunch of other technobabble things too that I don't know about. But a fellow on another forum compared it directly to his big brand new OPPO 83 and said the Sony is as good on picture for BD bit worse on DVD's. Even if that is a stretch - it's probably at least close - and that would be saying a lot for the Sony considering it's cheaper - and ohh - it also plays video games!!! And it's cheaper than I paid for my Pioneer DV333 years ago. Can't beat that!

Maybe it's time for a Christmas present for myself.

BadAssJazz
12-03-2009, 09:08 AM
BAJ, you should take a look at the link I posted, Panasonic and Oppo are both there. Check your manual for how to update firmware. If I can do it any one should be able to. People like to pick on Samsung but they would actually send me the disc if I asked. Marantz wasn't any help at all. So I had to ask a lot of questions of others and learn how to download and burn to CD the update. My snag was I didn't realize the file was a zip file when downloaded. Couldn't understand why it wouldn't work. I can half smile at it now. So an addition of Winzip and a simple CD burning program and I was off. Oh, and the really fun part, Marantz has a sequence of buttons to push to tell the player to update. It's about 4 buttons. The manual says to push in 2 to 3 seconds, in actuality it was more like a blink of an eye. In the end I finally got it updated though. The second time the only problem I had was finding a disc my burner liked.

I was going to get a Pioneer BD51 but it is big and wouldn't fit in the space I had so I went with the Marantz. I notice you have a SVS as well. I am thrilled with mine.

No worries, when I finally settle on a BR player once and for all, I plan to keep it fully updated on firmware. I just haven't felt the need to do that since I usually swap out the gear so quickly. I do check regularly for firmware updates on my SC-07, though, especially since that entails taking it to a local pioneer repair center. Fortunately, there are a couple here in the Bay Area within easy driving distance.

I love my SVS. I started off with the 20-39, but sold it in favor of the box...purely for aesthetics. The girlfriend wasn't fond of the 20-39's black cylinder in "her" living room at all. It stood out like a sore thumb, even though I tried my best to integrate it with the decor. Performance-wise, I've no complaints whatsoever with switching from the 20-39 to the SB12. The damn thing delivers and then some!

rob_a
12-03-2009, 01:09 PM
I think the Blu-ray format is great and I hope it becomes the standard in movies and music. If the music industry starts putting music out more on Blu-ray, I would be all for it. Think about it, one format means one player for all your needs. No more expensive universal players or a rack with 4 different players to cover all your compatibility needs. The audio and picture quality are second none, beating DVD-A and SACD in my book, yet inexpensive and simple to use, one HDMI cable to your receiver, your done. The firmware issue is not an issue, with BD live, this is as easy as a software update on your computer.

Mr Peabody
12-03-2009, 03:30 PM
And you seem to be posting this list repeatedly and suggesting that it means something significant, when it doesn't. The presence of a firmware file says absolutely nothing about how frequently it was updated or how significant the issues it remedies are. The Panasonic firmware update for the DMP-BD60 simply adds "BD-V" playback capability, while the firmware for the DMP-BD80 is still version 1.0.

** This is the first time I've used this link and if it wasn't significant the info wouldn't be listed on Bluray.com.

Since you seem to be ignoring my point, I'll say it again. Oppo is "on the list" because it is also "on the list" of BD players in production. EVERY major BD player model has the current firmware file on its manufacturer's website. In some cases it solves a problem, in other cases, it adds a new feature. And in other cases, it's no different than the firmware version that got loaded onto the production units.

** Of course, they'd be on the manufacturer website. Bluray.com gathers them in one place out of convenience for those who visit or have the intelligence to realize their machine needs the updates.

This is Oppo's first attempt at a BD player. All of the other manufacturers have had at least three generations to iron out the bugs at their end. Even the cheap players are made by Funai, which has also issued at least three previous generations of its spec models. It took about that many generations for the early DVD player problems to get solved as well.

** It's no shame for Oppo to have an update. I'm saying it's normal and it isn't going away soon.

Oh please. If you're going to accuse someone of arguing for argument's sake, why don't you try accurately representing what they said first.

Here's my original quote: "The firmware and player compatibility issues have been getting less and less frequent with every successive generation."

And here's my second quote: Like I stated before, the newer models have not had the same issues with playback compatibility, and as Terrence pointed out, the firmware updates do not come out as frequently as before and now correct relatively minor issues.

Where does it say that firmware updates "aren't out there" or "aren't important"? If you take issue with my statements, are actually you suggesting that the firmware updates and compatibility problems are just as bad now as they were three years ago? That would be foolish.

** Going by the amount of manufacturers on the list and the current dates...... you can only go by what you see. You don't even have a Blu-ray player do you?

YOU were the one wondering why you don't hear about compatibility issues anymore. And I simply stated the obvious in response -- you don't hear about it because it's not a major issue anymore. You seem to be the only one convinced that Blu-ray will fail because these Joe6p's won't install firmware updates. Y'know, updates that solve problems that the vast majority of newer BD player owners won't ever experience.

Wrong again. No where did I say Blu-ray would fail. And, as I have already demonstrated new players will and do need firmware updates.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-03-2009, 06:09 PM
Wrong again. No where did I say Blu-ray would fail. And, as I have already demonstrated new players will and do need firmware updates.

I do not think anyone said otherwise. However you seem to be mis-representing exactly what the latest firmware upgrades actually do. There has not been a single disc compatibility upgrade announcement in the last year. It has mostly been tweaking upgrades - upgrades that speed up Java processing, improve BD live access, or add features that were announced after the player came to market (netflix access). These updates are all "choice" updates that you choose to add to your player, and not required to make it work. There is a difference. Some folks do not have a problem with their players operation right out of the box, as those firmware upgrades have already been loaded.

As I have told you previously, you seem to think that joe6pack is technologically challenged in that they cannot load a disc, and install a firmware upgrade if needed or desired. Over the last three to four years, that has been proven wrong. As a member of Bluray.com, and as an insider there as well - and as a person who visits other websites, one learns that folks know how to call customer service, or download and burn their own firmware disc and install updates based on instructions given. No big deal here. However, I have read many a times where a person has not installed the latest firmware upgrade, and the player is working just fine. The latest players contain wifi or ethernet access that makes downloading an upgrade a snap. I try not to make a mountain out of a ant hill, and that is not a bad suggestion to follow.

Mr Peabody
12-03-2009, 06:40 PM
I'm not trying to make more of this than what it is. Some people don't even know you need special programming to receive HD. I had to explain to some what Progressive Scan is let alone updating firmware. Not every single person will not read the manual but it's more than you would admit.

You can call it what you want but when my player won't play a certain movie I call it incompatibility. It's also funny how when I read a lot of the firmware updates it's many times to enable the player to play a certain movie. Even though my fix allowed me to watch Drag Me To Hell, the fix was actually for Babylon AD. Regardless, firmware updates are something that those who own BD players should know about and keep updated. Whether they choose to is up to them.

If any one made a mountain from a mole hil it's you and Wooch. You act like Blu-ray is totally perfect and nothing negative can be said. Actually, admitting there are firmware updates isn't even a negative. But it is part of ownership of one and you denying it don't make it any less so.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-03-2009, 07:02 PM
I don't see any issues with BD players not being able to play DVD - some machines apparently are louder but they should be fine.

Blu Ray was handled well - the players are "backwards compatible" if DVD is backwards and so it makes buying a BD player painless.

I still like DVD's because the prices are dirt cheap and if it's not the kind of movie you care "that" much about it's not a bad deal to pick them up for $5 here or there.

My GF's father bought a Sony player recently and what bothered me more about it and my GF's LG player was how bloody SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW it was to just turn on and let the disc out and then read the disc and get going. Meanwhile the PS3 is lightning fast and the picture quality is identical to the stand alone player - and it plays games and doesn't cost much.

Disc loading speed is definately a problem with early players, and has gotten much better in the latest generations. It was largely chip instruction inefficiencies that made the processors have to do a lot things separately when booting up, loading Java, and checking to see if the machine has been altered. When you added BD live to the equation, it slowed the processor even further. Now these processes are handled in a single process that speed load up time.


I'm not a huge gamer but I have to say when they advertise "it does everything" it pretty much does for the average user. I have never been a videophile to be honest with you but The PS3 is a very very tempting machine - I was screwing around with a baseball game on the thing and I was amazed at the graphics and detail of the whole thing. I can see why they're so popular. I have an old XBox that I bought for $40 (it pays to be one technology behind) because all the games are $5 - $20 used - and hey the games are all "new" to me. But the PS3 baseball game looks vastly better than the MVP2005 game I have.

And the interesting footnote on the PS3 is that they have not even used the Cell processor to its maximum capacity for gaming yet, and things will improve even further when they do.

Anyway, The PS3 plays the DVD's - it has apparently good upgrade paths, the picture quality is very good - and it plays games. Probably does a bunch of other technobabble things too that I don't know about. But a fellow on another forum compared it directly to his big brand new OPPO 83 and said the Sony is as good on picture for BD bit worse on DVD's. Even if that is a stretch - it's probably at least close - and that would be saying a lot for the Sony considering it's cheaper - and ohh - it also plays video games!!! And it's cheaper than I paid for my Pioneer DV333 years ago. Can't beat that!

Maybe it's time for a Christmas present for myself.[/QUOTE]

The observation on the PS3 versus the Oppo is correct, but it is close. I stated on this website recently that the software engineers a SCE are working on a high end computer based upscaling function for the PS3 which will make it a better upscaling player easily equal to the Oppo.

One comparison I have found that was ear opening is the CD playback of the PS3 versus the Oppo. I was quite surprised that my PS3 actually sounds better than my Oppo, and that has to be thanks to the excellent upsampling of the PS3. Even with the Upsample feature off, it sounded a bit more natural and unforced compared to the Oppo on their HDMI outputs. That was a huge surprise to me.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-03-2009, 07:29 PM
I'm not trying to make more of this than what it is. Some people don't even know you need special programming to receive HD. I had to explain to some what Progressive Scan is let alone updating firmware. Not every single person will not read the manual but it's more than you would admit.

You don't have to read the manual, the instructions are on the website, and you are prompted by the player through every step. Perhaps you should admit that people are smarter than you make them out to be. Every disc comes with an announcement to keep your player updated. You choose to update or not, it is just that simple.


You can call it what you want but when my player won't play a certain movie I call it incompatibility. It's also funny how when I read a lot of the firmware updates it's many times to enable the player to play a certain movie. Even though my fix allowed me to watch Drag Me To Hell, the fix was actually for Babylon AD. Regardless, firmware updates are something that those who own BD players should know about and keep updated. Whether they choose to is up to them.

Once again, you chose a Samsung player, a player who's software coding was poor from the onset, and has to continually be updated to fix that problem. The PS3 has not had a single compatibility problem in the entire 3 years that I have owned it, and the Oppo had the latest firmware upgrade installed when I purchased it. Where you are making a mountain out of a ant hill comes from the fact that when you look at the firmware upgrade page on Bluray.com, most players have had only ONE firmware upgrade released, not many as you are trying to allude to. Not one firmware upgrade in 2009 was for compatibility issues, NOT ONE!


If any one made a mountain from a mole hil it's you and Wooch. You act like Blu-ray is totally perfect and nothing negative can be said. Actually, admitting there are firmware updates isn't even a negative. But it is part of ownership of one and you denying it don't make it any less so.

On the flip side - you act as if Bluray was so flawed that average consumers will pause before buying or not buy it at all. I say this is BS big time. Anyone who owns a computer knows how to install a patch, especially Windows users. It is no big deal anymore except to computer illiterate individuals, or people who enjoy complaining about everything. The Bluray format is much more sophisticated than the DVD format by a long way. To expect a machine as complicated as a Bluray player to work perfectly out of the box is profoundly unreasonable. Having the ability to upgrade the player in the field is a plus, not a minus. If we didn't have that ability, then HD on disc would have been delayed for years trying to chase perfection out of the box.

Your insistence that a player MUST have the firmware upgrade to play is pretty disingenious. My best friend uses his Panasonic player every day, and he has never installed the latest upgrade, and it plays discs just fine. I have a Sony BDP-S300 I use for pulling screenshots for reviews that has never been upgraded, and it has played hundreds of disc flawlessly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is smart advice. To make a big deal out of a single firmware upgrade per player is nothing more than crying over a teaspoon of spilled milk.

Woochifer
12-03-2009, 08:25 PM
Wrong again. No where did I say Blu-ray would fail. And, as I have already demonstrated new players will and do need firmware updates.

Nice duck, but you failed to once again grasp the basic concept that the newer players are at a point where compatibility issues are largely irrelevant. The first generation BD players needed firmware updates to resolve basic playback and performance issues, just about all of the current players don't.


I'm not trying to make more of this than what it is.

You don't have to try because you already have.


If any one made a mountain from a mole hil it's you and Wooch. You act like Blu-ray is totally perfect and nothing negative can be said. Actually, admitting there are firmware updates isn't even a negative. But it is part of ownership of one and you denying it don't make it any less so.

As Terrence pointed out, you're way inflating the importance of these firmware updates and whether the average consumer has the technical know how to install them or even needs them in the first place.

For someone who buys one of the newer players, they will do just fine if they never update their players, because the compatibility issues with nearly all of those players have become few and far between. As T already indicated, NONE of the firmware updates issued in 2009 addressed compatibility issues. So why would a consumer want to flash their BD player firmware if it doesn't solve any problems?

My point was simply that the firmware updates are coming out less frequently, and address less serious issues than before. Your continued ignorance of that simple truth is rather glaring if you claim that you're not arguing for argument's sake.

Smokey
12-03-2009, 10:33 PM
As for most older TV shows,most were filmed, and were higher res than 480i, and look a lot better on Blu, especially if they are cleaned up.

Given that msot classic TV shows on DVD are Sitcom, I don't think that is true. Top shows like Sanford and Son, Married With Children, All In The Family or Three's Company were taped (not filmed) and don't think they look too good on Bluray.

You can tell pretty much which TV shows were taped and which one were filmed. The shows that were filmed have more depth, resolution and color saturation than taped ones.


The DVD format will be viable until it gets surpassed by Blu-ray. Some analysts are now projecting that will happen sometime in 2012. At that point, the DVD's demise will be swift and decisive. The hardware will be all Blu-ray capable by that point, and retailers will not maintain dual disc inventories indefinitely.

I have not been to Bestbuy in a while (or Walmart :D), but they have like 7 or 8 ailes of DVD on both sides. So you are saying that in 2 or 3 years, all those ailes with DVDs will be replaced with Bluray discs?

There are so many movie titles out ther that be a while before it get on Bluray, and maenwhile DVD probably will be the only medium to have those titles. So if BB or WM pull those DVDs off the shelves and don't replace thme with its Bluray counter part, I don't think that be good business sense as you would have empty shelves.


Look at how quickly VHS disappeared from store shelves after the DVD format took over the sales lead in 2003 (some retailers like Best Buy had already cut out their VHS titles well before then). It took only three years after that for the studios to abandon the format altogether.

That might be comparing apple and oranges as VHS was more flawed than DVD fromat. Public were demaning to get rid of the format due to its "analog" nature. But there seem to be no such a push for DVD as gain is not so dramatic.


TV DVD sets are generally not huge sellers, and most of them probably won't get re-released on Blu-ray anyway. DVD's the perfect medium, because for most TV series, that will be the ONLY medium.

That might be true when they are full priced but if they are on sale, they will go pretty fast. For example, Bestbuy put different TV titles by season on sale on weekly base (starting Sunday) for $12.99, and if you don't get to store by Sunday or Monday, they will be gone. So sombody out there buying them.


Those $2.99 DVDs you see at Big Lots wound up at that price for a reason -- NOBODY WANTS THEM ANYMORE! Joe6p already rented them or bought them ages ago.

Contrary to Walmart's Bargin bin where most titles have been seen, many DVD titles at Biglots are obsecure or hard to find titles. Just recently picked up movies like There Was Crooked Man, Sunshine Boys, Going In Style and Support Your Local Sherif where I have not seen in BB or Walmart.

Invader3k
12-04-2009, 05:49 AM
There's also a ton of big movies that haven't made the transition to Blu-Ray (yet). Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc. When some of those heavy hitter films start coming out on BD, I think that is going to be a real tipping point.

bfalls
12-04-2009, 11:44 AM
Wednesday and Thursday we had an Open House at Sony DADC. It was reported we manufactured 1.5M DVDs and 800K Blu-rays. I hope DVD isn't dead:eek6:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-04-2009, 03:05 PM
Wednesday and Thursday we had an Open House at Sony DADC. It was reported we manufactured 1.5M DVDs and 800K Blu-rays. I hope DVD isn't dead:eek6:

Don't worry, those numbers will be switched soon enough. I need to find out how Panasonic line did.

Did they tell you how many were BD-50 and BD-25?

Woochifer
12-04-2009, 04:57 PM
I have not been to Bestbuy in a while (or Walmart :D), but they have like 7 or 8 ailes of DVD on both sides. So you are saying that in 2 or 3 years, all those ailes with DVDs will be replaced with Bluray discs?

Might need to take time out from the bin diving and drop by a Best Buy store. :cool: BB announced before the holidays that they would roughly triple the shelf space for Blu-ray to 30% of their movie sections, and the Blu-ray presence at all of my local BB stores has really ramped up over the last couple of months.

Costco said that they would ramp up their BD title selection by 50% for the holidays. In an article from Video Business, Costco's DVD/Blu-ray buyer said that their Blu-ray player sales are now 450% above where they were last year. Those are the types of accelerated growth trends you saw with the DVD format when it got into the 4th year.

The DVD format surpassed VHS after six years. According to some analysts, Blu-ray is on pace to do the same thing by the end of 2012. Recall that Best Buy's VHS selection had already gotten pared way back before then. Once the DVD format reached majority status, that signaled the death knell for VHS, and retailers, manufacturers, and studios alike abandoned the format very quickly thereafter.


There are so many movie titles out ther that be a while before it get on Bluray, and maenwhile DVD probably will be the only medium to have those titles. So if BB or WM pull those DVDs off the shelves and don't replace thme with its Bluray counter part, I don't think that be good business sense as you would have empty shelves.

That's a non-issue because the home video business is and always has been driven by new releases. The market follows what happens with newer titles. Catalog titles fill the shelf space, but generate only a fraction of the total sales. The Blu-ray sections are replacing the DVD shelf space simply because that's where consumers have headed. If Blu-ray reaches majority status, then it would not make good business sense for retailers to continue stocking a lower margin format rapidly headed towards obsolescence.

When the DVD format was in its 4th year, VHS had a far greater selection, but that did nothing to keep that format alive indefinitely. Even now, the DVD format's title selection does not approach what VHS had. Doesn't matter -- VHS is still a dead format.


That might be comparing apple and oranges as VHS was more flawed than DVD fromat. Public were demaning to get rid of the format due to its "analog" nature. But there seem to be no such a push for DVD as gain is not so dramatic.

It's not apples and oranges because it's still consumers talking with the dollars and cents they spend on video products. And those dollars have now shifted towards Blu-ray in a pattern very much parallels what happened with the DVD. For other people, the DVD format is equally flawed because of its "standard def" nature.

VHS still controlled a sizable share of the market when video stores, retailers, and manufacturers began phasing out the format. Doesn't matter if you don't perceive a push away from the DVD because the sales figures would indicate otherwise. Remember that the DVD's success was far from certain, and I recall many voices out there opining that VHS was "good enough" for most consumers.


That might be true when they are full priced but if they are on sale, they will go pretty fast. For example, Bestbuy put different TV titles by season on sale on weekly base (starting Sunday) for $12.99, and if you don't get to store by Sunday or Monday, they will be gone. So sombody out there buying them.

But, again TV shows don't make up a huge chunk of the overall sales. Why would those TV seasons need to be discounted down to $13? With BB basically tripling their shelf space for Blu-ray, all that space has to be cleared somehow.

Like I said, they are a cheap way for the studios to clear out their vault material, but certainly not something that's going to drive the market.

Woochifer
12-04-2009, 05:15 PM
There's also a ton of big movies that haven't made the transition to Blu-Ray (yet). Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc. When some of those heavy hitter films start coming out on BD, I think that is going to be a real tipping point.

The real tipping point will be when sales on new releases begin regularly splitting 50/50 between Blu-ray and DVD. That's the point at which you'll see the industry begin to consolidate around Blu-ray and phase out the DVD. New releases are where Blu-ray will attract the big sales numbers.

Catalog titles are a relatively small chunk of the market, and re-releases on sell-through titles generally don't sell nearly as well as they originally did in their home video debut. The best examples are the Disney titles, which can sell tens of millions of copies when they first become available. But, when those titles got released on DVD, the sales were a fraction of those from the original VHS release. The biggest sellers remain the new releases.

Finding Nemo is the biggest selling DVD ever with over 40 million copies sold. Whenever that title comes out on Blu-ray, they'll be lucky to even get 5% of that.

Smokey
12-05-2009, 11:40 PM
That's a non-issue because the home video business is and always has been driven by new releases. The market follows what happens with newer titles. Catalog titles fill the shelf space, but generate only a fraction of the total sales. If Blu-ray reaches majority status, then it would not make good business sense for retailers to continue stocking a lower margin format rapidly headed towards obsolescence.

We are in agreement that DVD will eventually take a left turn...but couple of more thougths :)

If retailers pull the plugs on DVD in couple of years, then what would happen with all those low profit DVD catalog titles that Bluray will not be able to replace overnight?

It took 5 to 6 years before obsecure tiltes became available on DVD, and if retailers dump DVDs, do we have to wait another 5to 6 years before those titles come on Bluray. As you said, older catalog titles are low profit for retailers, but woudn't you say that still be better than no profit waiting for bluray titles to catch up with DVD.

pixelthis
12-06-2009, 10:32 AM
We are in agreement that DVD will eventually take a left turn...but couple of more thougths :)

If retailers pull the plugs on DVD in couple of years, then what would happen with all those low profit DVD catalog titles that Bluray will not be able to replace overnight?

It took 5 to 6 years before obsecure tiltes became available on DVD, and if retailers dump DVDs, do we have to wait another 5to 6 years before those titles come on Bluray. As you said, older catalog titles are low profit for retailers, but woudn't you say that still be better than no profit waiting for bluray titles to catch up with DVD.

I am sure there will always be a "niche" for cheap DVD, just like there is for VHS.
And what Wooch said is basically correct, BB was just swamped with BLU titles.
I have always said that BLU is just an upgrade from DVD, and I THINK most will treat it as such.:1:

Woochifer
12-06-2009, 08:03 PM
If retailers pull the plugs on DVD in couple of years, then what would happen with all those low profit DVD catalog titles that Bluray will not be able to replace overnight?

They will remain in place until the DVD shelf space gets smaller and smaller, and then it will become unavailable altogether, except through back channels or mail order. This is no different than what happened to VHS. Starting around 2003, mail order was the only way to obtain many VHS titles.


It took 5 to 6 years before obsecure tiltes became available on DVD, and if retailers dump DVDs, do we have to wait another 5to 6 years before those titles come on Bluray. As you said, older catalog titles are low profit for retailers, but woudn't you say that still be better than no profit waiting for bluray titles to catch up with DVD.

Look at where we are, and where we're going. By the time DVD availability becomes an issue, the Blu-ray format will be more than six years old (and probably closer to nine years old). By that time, the obscure titles will have been trickling out in Blu-ray for a while.

You also have to keep in mind that many of these DVD titles will have gone out of print well before then. Even if a retailer wanted to keep those cheap DVDs around, the selection and availability will dwindle in a hurry once the DVD format is consigned to minority status. The studios will delete scores of titles from their wholesale catalogs, making them unavailable altogether. In the short-term, that might be a good thing for dollar bin diving as the studios empty out their warehouses. But, consider that a last hurrah once the supply gets depleted.

If in the meantime, it's more profitable to the retailers to expand their shelf space for Blu-ray, they will do it (and they already have). When Best Buy and other retailers began paring back the VHS sections, there were (and still are) thousands of titles that had yet to come out on DVD, but the DVD sections generated far more revenue and turned over inventory much quicker.

But, don't ever expect the title availability to cover everything that was/is available on DVD. A lot of titles simply won't generate enough demand to justify a Blu-ray release. But, remember that there also remains tens of thousands of movie titles that were available on VHS that have never come out on DVD. That never stopped the DVD format from taking over or retailers from phasing out the VHS sections.

frahengeo
12-07-2009, 07:28 AM
I just bought the sequel to Night at the Museum for Xmas for my son. Planning to buy the new Harry Potter as well. Both of these blu-ray titles come with the DVD as well and are cheaper than the DVD only package.
Seems like a very good strategy to get more people to adopt blu-ray. I mean, even if I didn't own a blu-ray player/HDTV, the cost alone would drive me to buy the blu-ray since it includes the DVD anyways.
On top of this, with more high definition sets finding its way into people's homes as well as the availability of HD broadcast...Point is. once you've become accustomed to the resolution of 1080P/720P, its somewhat difficult to watch SD. It appears out of focus

Mr Peabody
12-07-2009, 07:13 PM
I find what comes to Blu-ray interesting. Circle Of Iron is on BR but to my knowledge has never been on DVD. The John Wayne movie The Searchers was put out on BR and almost immediately became a budget movie. I picked it up at $7.99. It just some how never made it into my collection yet. I see African Queen is coming out. A lot of non-mainstream stuff is coming out too. I rented the movie Hell Ride which was on Blu, I didn't know what it was, that movie would have to stretch to become a "B" movie. Sometimes I wonder if there is a rhyme or reason to what gets released. Looks like several 80's titles, The Last Starfighter, Gremlins, Never Ending Story, etc.

I think prices dropping is really going to get things moving though, and so far the numbers show it.

Feanor
12-08-2009, 07:39 AM
I find what comes to Blu-ray interesting. Circle Of Iron is on BR but to my knowledge has never been on DVD. The John Wayne movie The Searchers was put out on BR and almost immediately became a budget movie. I picked it up at $7.99. It just some how never made it into my collection yet. I see African Queen is coming out. A lot of non-mainstream stuff is coming out too. I rented the movie Hell Ride which was on Blu, I didn't know what it was, that movie would have to stretch to become a "B" movie. Sometimes I wonder if there is a rhyme or reason to what gets released. Looks like several 80's titles, The Last Starfighter, Gremlins, Never Ending Story, etc.

I think prices dropping is really going to get things moving though, and so far the numbers show it.
I think you're right that low prices on these oldies will give a good many customers an incentive to switch to Blu-ray.

How good are these BR remasters?? I guess many are made from film, (35mm? 70mm?), that presumably have plenty of resolution for BR, so there would seem to be plenty of potiential (for the video if not the sound).

On the other hand Sir ToT has been telling us how expensive it is to switch production to BR, how much more difficult to master, etc.. So I wonder what the trick is that they can produce these oldies for $8.00 per copy? Obviously the cost of the original filming is totally irrelevant, but what about the post-production costs?

I've always made the point that the incremental cost to put one more physical copy on the shelve is unrelated to the $30-40 MSRP of the new-movie product.

Worf101
12-08-2009, 08:51 AM
I've been into BR a little while now with my Oppo BD-83. I've found that most disc incompatibility problems are usually the result of a faulty disk. I've not found one disk that wouldn't play if washed or replaced by Netflix. I've not bought any BR disks and probably won't long as I can git em on Netflix. But I've found the entire process of migrating from DVD to BR to have been relatively painless if you DON'T count the cash outlay!!!! LOL

Da Worfster

Feanor
12-08-2009, 10:02 AM
I've been into BR a little while now with my Oppo BD-83. I've found that most disc incompatibility problems are usually the result of a faulty disk. I've not found one disk that wouldn't play if washed or replaced by Netflix. I've not bought any BR disks and probably won't long as I can git em on Netflix. But I've found the entire process of migrating from DVD to BR to have been relatively painless if you DON'T count the cash outlay!!!! LOL

Da Worfster
Amen to that. I'll be getting mine from Zip.ca. I'd be happy renting forever, though my wife will probably want to buy a few.

BadAssJazz
12-08-2009, 10:52 AM
I've been into BR a little while now with my Oppo BD-83. I've found that most disc incompatibility problems are usually the result of a faulty disk. I've not found one disk that wouldn't play if washed or replaced by Netflix. I've not bought any BR disks and probably won't long as I can git em on Netflix. But I've found the entire process of migrating from DVD to BR to have been relatively painless if you DON'T count the cash outlay!!!! LOL

Da Worfster

+1 on Netflix. It's impossible to own everything that I want to see on BR. Well, not impossible, but very expensive..

pixelthis
12-08-2009, 01:35 PM
I think you're right that low prices on these oldies will give a good many customers an incentive to switch to Blu-ray.

How good are these BR remasters?? I guess many are made from film, (35mm? 70mm?), that presumably have plenty of resolution for BR, so there would seem to be plenty of potiential (for the video if not the sound).

On the other hand Sir ToT has been telling us how expensive it is to switch production to BR, how much more difficult to master, etc.. So I wonder what the trick is that they can produce these oldies for $8.00 per copy? Obviously the cost of the original filming is totally irrelevant, but what about the post-production costs?

I've always made the point that the incremental cost to put one more physical copy on the shelve is unrelated to the $30-40 MSRP of the new-movie product.


Sir Talky tells a lot of stuff, a good percentage a tad delusional.
The biggest cost for a title is always royalties, these older titles are cheap in that regard,
some are even general issue.
And transcoding up to BLU can be expensive, but lets face it, a lot of these old gems arent having much time wasted on them.
You "upconvert" an old movie everytime you watch it on a 1080p telly, really.
NO BIGGIE.:1:

Woochifer
12-08-2009, 01:47 PM
I think you're right that low prices on these oldies will give a good many customers an incentive to switch to Blu-ray.

How good are these BR remasters?? I guess many are made from film, (35mm? 70mm?), that presumably have plenty of resolution for BR, so there would seem to be plenty of potiential (for the video if not the sound).

The quality of the masters will vary considerably. Some of the BDs that had major restoration work done with frame-by-frame scans (e.g., Blade Runner and Sleeping Beauty) are jawdropping in their image quality. Newer movies are also either filmed digitally or use a digital intermediary during post production, so the BD transfer is very close to the original. Artistically, I think BD brings the viewer closer to the source because details like the film grain are now visible.

Others BDs use deficient sources, and that's reflected in the end product. For example, the BD for Gladiator has been getting roundly panned by enthusiasts for its subpar image quality. Apparently, that BD simply reused the same high definition scan originally done for the 2001 DVD release. Yes, it's true HD resolution, but the scanning technology has exponentially improved since that time. That master might have looked fine for a DVD transfer, but its flaws are visible when viewed at 1080p.


On the other hand Sir ToT has been telling us how expensive it is to switch production to BR, how much more difficult to master, etc.. So I wonder what the trick is that they can produce these oldies for $8.00 per copy? Obviously the cost of the original filming is totally irrelevant, but what about the post-production costs?

Once the post-production is switched over, it's done. Once the BD production lines are up and running, they're done. You're talking about one-time sunk costs that get amortized over time. BD production costs are already fairly low, so it's not the production costs that explain the price differential between Blu-ray releases and their DVD counterparts.

There is no trick to producing older movies for $8 each. Most of those BDs getting marked down that low have been in print for at least a couple of years. It's nothing more than a normal product cycle where a title gets released, and then it migrates down into lower price points over time. The reason why so many BD disc prices are so high is because most of them are relatively new and haven't gone through that price cycle yet.


I just bought the sequel to Night at the Museum for Xmas for my son. Planning to buy the new Harry Potter as well. Both of these blu-ray titles come with the DVD as well and are cheaper than the DVD only package.
Seems like a very good strategy to get more people to adopt blu-ray. I mean, even if I didn't own a blu-ray player/HDTV, the cost alone would drive me to buy the blu-ray since it includes the DVD anyways.

I think that's a very smart transition strategy, although I think the studios are doing that primarily to maintain the higher list prices. With those titles, I've begun seeing the BD prices lower than the special edition two-disc DVD versions (but still higher than the single-disc DVD). That would be a hopeful sign that the studios are now inching the BD prices closer to the single-disc DVDs. Or it's simply a sign that the studios are ready to pull the plug on the special edition two-disc DVD sets.

Universal also announced that they will begin issuing DVD/BD flipper discs that put both formats onto a single disc. On the surface that seems like a good idea, but I recall that the DVD/HD-DVD flippers were plagued with high defect rates and not especially durable. If that issue is not resolved before these flipper discs go out, that would make for a lot of bad PR for Blu-ray. I'm not so sure that this would reduce the production costs by all that much, but it would eliminate the need for dual inventories (which studios and retailers alike hate) and I think that might be the primary motive here.


On top of this, with more high definition sets finding its way into people's homes as well as the availability of HD broadcast...Point is. once you've become accustomed to the resolution of 1080P/720P, its somewhat difficult to watch SD. It appears out of focus

I think all of these tech bloggers who've been predicting/hoping for Blu-ray's demise keep missing this fundamental point. Blu-ray right now is the highest quality video format available to consumers. When consumers upgrade to HDTV, they also typically upgrade to a larger screen size. And on that larger screen, SD resolution looks horrible. On a larger screen, those "HD" downloads and streams will also look substandard compared to Blu-ray.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-08-2009, 03:23 PM
Sir Talky tells a lot of stuff, a good percentage a tad delusional.
The biggest cost for a title is always royalties, these older titles are cheap in that regard,
some are even general issue.
And transcoding up to BLU can be expensive, but lets face it, a lot of these old gems arent having much time wasted on them.
You "upconvert" an old movie everytime you watch it on a 1080p telly, really.
NO BIGGIE.:1:

Ummmm Pix, from what position that you sit that you can judge what I post as delusional? Have you ever worked in the film industry? No you have not, you don't even know the difference between a matrix format, and sound enhancements.

Royalties are not the biggest cost, it is restoration, compression and authoring. And you do not trancode up to Bluray resolution, either the source is equal to 1080p (most 35mm film) or you have to down rez to Bluray (IMAX, 65mm or 70mm)

When you state that someone elses information is "delusional", it might help that your comments are at least accurate, or in the ball park. Much of the time your comments are neither.

All movies on Bluray are encoded at 1080p, so there is no need for upconversion of any Bluray disc.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-08-2009, 03:35 PM
Universal also announced that they will begin issuing DVD/BD flipper discs that put both formats onto a single disc. On the surface that seems like a good idea, but I recall that the DVD/HD-DVD flippers were plagued with high defect rates and not especially durable. If that issue is not resolved before these flipper discs go out, that would make for a lot of bad PR for Blu-ray. I'm not so sure that this would reduce the production costs by all that much, but it would eliminate the need for dual inventories (which studios and retailers alike hate) and I think that might be the primary motive here.

Personally I think someone at Universal is smokin crack on this. The HD DVD combo disc cost Universal a fortune to replicate, and then turn around and replace. The bonding that glues the two sides together did not hold, which caused the disc to either rot, or fail after a few months. They had a high failure rate during replication, and often the failed disc made it into the distribution chain and to consumers which they had to replace. The Ant Bully costs Warner a fortune because of the amount of disc that failed and had to be replaced.

Combo disc cost quite a bit of money to replicate, which is why Warner gave up on the HD DVD/Bluray combo disc even before it came to market. The best way to get rid of dual inventory is to do what many studio are currently doing...offering a Bluray disc, and a DVD disc (and digital copy) in the same box. This is cheaper than the flipper disc, and has proven to be quite consumer friendly. We at Disney have gotten a great response from this practice, and plan to continue doing it until DVD goes away.

L.J.
12-09-2009, 11:07 AM
The best way to get rid of dual inventory is to do what many studio are currently doing...offering a Bluray disc, and a DVD disc (and digital copy) in the same box. This is cheaper than the flipper disc, and has proven to be quite consumer friendly. We at Disney have gotten a great response from this practice, and plan to continue doing it until DVD goes away.

Yeah I was hoping that would catch on. I started a thread over a year ago (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=28306) asking would the BR with bonus DVD become the norm. This is huge to me. I put the DVD in a separate case to go in my kids room or bring along to play on the laptop. Hopefully more studios join Disney on this.

frahengeo
12-09-2009, 01:41 PM
Yeah I was hoping that would catch on. I started a thread over a year ago (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=28306) asking would the BR with bonus DVD become the norm. This is huge to me. I put the DVD in a separate case to go in my kids room or bring along to play on the laptop. Hopefully more studios join Disney on this.

Night at the Museum II: Fox
Harry Potter 6: Warner Bros ($14.99!!)

pixelthis
12-09-2009, 03:06 PM
Ummmm Pix, from what position that you sit that you can judge what I post as delusional? Have you ever worked in the film industry? No you have not, you don't even know the difference between a matrix format, and sound enhancements.

To call being a PR hack "work" is streching it a bit, but I will concede the point



Royalties are not the biggest cost, it is restoration, compression and authoring. And you do not trancode up to Bluray resolution, either the source is equal to 1080p (most 35mm film) or you have to down rez to Bluray (IMAX, 65mm or 70mm)

And you said awhile back that film wasnt HD because its not 16:9.
And I worked at a disc plant for awhile, talked to a lot of the bigshots on several occasions,
and remarked on how much goes into making a title one day while watching a machine the size of my house wash a batch with purified water.
THE manager watching said (after I REMARKED AT HOW EXPENSIVE making a disc must be) that royalty payments and other such were far and away the most expensive part of disc making.
BLU is probably higher, but the average cost (packaging, authoring, pressing, the truck)
is two dollars for one disc.
WHICH IS WHY i DONT GREIVE MUCH about how sales of CD's are tanking.





When you state that someone elses information is "delusional", it might help that your comments are at least accurate, or in the ball park. Much of the time your comments are neither.

Awww dont be like that talky! I was just kidding(mostly):1:


All movies on Bluray are encoded at 1080p, so there is no need for upconversion of any Bluray disc.

Maybe now, but they started out making some at 720p, and there are still 720p discs out there, mostly at firesale prices.
And the fact that most are 1080p is why you set your receiver to "through", BTW:1:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
12-09-2009, 05:32 PM
Maybe now, but they started out making some at 720p, and there are still 720p discs out there, mostly at firesale prices.
And the fact that most are 1080p is why you set your receiver to "through", BTW:1:

No Pix, your lying again. The standard is based on 1080p encoding, and there are zero Bluray disc out there at 720p.


To call being a PR hack "work" is streching it a bit, but I will concede the point

At least I have a job Pix.....


And you said awhile back that film wasnt HD because its not 16:9.

Actually film is not HD because HD is based on a video standard, not a film standard. Film is encoded into high definition video.


And I worked at a disc plant for awhile, talked to a lot of the bigshots on several occasions,
and remarked on how much goes into making a title one day while watching a machine the size of my house wash a batch with purified water.
THE manager watching said (after I REMARKED AT HOW EXPENSIVE making a disc must be) that royalty payments and other such were far and away the most expensive part of disc making.

One thing you forgot in your statement, you cannot make a disc without the process that happens before it is complete. And here is what you really said, and it mentions nothing about disc replication.

The biggest cost for a title is always royalties, these older titles are cheap in that regard,
some are even general issue.

The biggest cost for getting a title to disc is the restoration of the film elements, authoring, compression. These three alone cost more than the entire replication process combined including royalties.


BLU is probably higher, but the average cost (packaging, authoring, pressing, the truck)
is two dollars for one disc.
WHICH IS WHY i DONT GREIVE MUCH about how sales of CD's are tanking.

Not accurate at all. The current pricing for an order of 5,000 bulk BD25 discs would be $9,350, including replication, AACS and mastering (but excluding shipping and taxes). That is to say, overall unit price would be $1.87 per disc without shipping and taxes. When you add shipping and taxes, the per disc price raises well above two dollars per disc.

The cost of a 5,000 bulk BD50 would be a along the lines of $2.60 with replication, AACS and mastering. And this is for a smaller replication facility that handles mostly non studio clients. For larger orders, the price comes down per disc, but the overall costs go up. So the "rough" estimate you got is not accurate at all.

When you add in the fact that most movies are utilizing the BD50 disc, you can see the per disc price is well above your $2 estimate.