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JohnMichael
11-27-2009, 01:04 PM
Help me spend my money, wisely. I have been looking at a new phono stage for awhile and I think it is down to the Phonomena II phono preamp. My hesitation has always been that its been years since I have heard anyones system with a very good phono preamp. I also think the CA 640P does a great job for a budget preamp. Again with nothing to compare it to except an older Rotel RQ 970BX.

I like the adjustability of the Phonomena for cartridge loading. I like what I have read about it. If I had a more expensive table and cartridge I could see spending more but I will be using it with the Rega for the foreseeable future. I have also noted that hifitommy has recommended the Dynavector but that is a little more than I want to spend right now.

I would like to hear what I might be able to expect with a better phono preamp. I am also interested in anyone's impressions who own the Phonomena.

Music Direct has a 10% off coupon good through the 30th and free shipping. That would bring the expense down to $540. I think now would be the time to buy.

Thanks for the advice and help.

02audionoob
11-27-2009, 05:41 PM
Seems like I saw the Dynavector on Audiogon for about half of list price.

JohnMichael
11-27-2009, 06:40 PM
I have never bought used equipment and I am not sure I am ready to start.

02audionoob
11-27-2009, 07:19 PM
Any interest in the Jolida?

JohnMichael
11-27-2009, 07:36 PM
Yes I have entertained the Jolida. Then I read a review about a modded Jolida that had a total cost over over $1,000. They bragged about the modded unit and I thought if I was going to pay for the unit and much more for the mods I was better off buying an expensive preamp. I miss the days where you could compare phono preamps in your local audio store.

I have been thinking also about the Graham Slee Fanfare or the Rega Fono MC which are both moving coil exclusive preamps.

audio amateur
11-28-2009, 03:27 AM
Why won't you buy used?

Jim Eck
11-28-2009, 03:27 AM
Any interest in tubes? Builing one?
The Seduction
http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=220&rn=429&action=show_detail

The Eros
http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=220&rn=428&action=show_detail

I have not heard these but they come highly recommended. You can buy them already factory assembled

Jim

JohnMichael
11-28-2009, 05:36 AM
Any interest in tubes? Builing one?
The Seduction
http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=220&rn=429&action=show_detail

The Eros
http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=220&rn=428&action=show_detail

I have not heard these but they come highly recommended. You can buy them already factory assembled

Jim



Thanks Jim but I am using a low output moving coil cartridge. I would need a little more gain than they offer. I am not sure if my fine motor skills are up to assembling and soldering.

poppachubby
11-28-2009, 11:28 AM
OK, thought I would share in your pre-amp thread John. Bought a 12V battery today, gonna wire up the MMF. It's rechargable by 12V adaptor.

JohnMichael
11-28-2009, 12:51 PM
Tried to order one from Music Direct but that did not work. See my post about the Music Direct ad.

hifitommy
11-29-2009, 12:02 PM
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1262652630&/Dynavector-P-75-Phono-preamp

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/dynavector_p75.htm

i dont see the risk in buying used. this item doesnt last long at agon whenever they are listed.

02audionoob
11-29-2009, 03:10 PM
This Audiogon seller with a PS Audio GCPH is a dealer. I don't know what he means by Like New on this exact item...maybe a demo.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preaphon&1264112429&/PS-Audio-GCPH-Phono-Preamp

hifitommy
11-29-2009, 05:55 PM
been to his store numerous times. if he says 'like new' then you can trust that. the location is rather elegant in the bel air hills of LA. i recently heard the magico m5s there and he is also a dali dealer.

my friend bought a used REL sub there as well. years ago, he invited me to his house to hear MBL101s and i foolishly didnt go.

E-Stat
11-30-2009, 06:58 AM
I have never bought used equipment and I am not sure I am ready to start.
Depreciation on high end gear is even steeper than for cars. I've purchased quite a few items used for about half price (or less). So long as it is quality stuff and the company is still around, I have no reservations.

rw

JohnMichael
11-30-2009, 09:38 AM
You are right about buying used and if it was an audio store close to home I would jump on it. If I had already heard the Dynavector and knew that was the one for me I would buy it.

If I order a product and it arrives and is not working possibly to mishandling in shipping who is responsible. The seller will state it was fine when packaged, the shipper may say well the box was fine so it was not something we did is it then my responsibility to live with it. These are things I do not know and need to find out before the purchase.

I miss the days of going to an audio store and listening to analog equipment. Checking out the stores trade-in section for items that had been checked out by the stores techs. Hell I miss having an audio store in town other than Best Buy.

hifitommy
11-30-2009, 08:09 PM
if you dont like it, youll get your money back.

dean_martin
11-30-2009, 09:33 PM
Several reputable online dealers sell the Jolida. I bought one for 10 to 15% off list at audiowaves. It's also available at spearitsound. Both offer free shipping.

The Jolida has plenty of gain for your high output MC (my high output MC is rated at 3.3mV which is a little higher than the typical 2.5mV, but there's so much gain available from the Jolida I'm looking at some lower output alternatives like a Denon) and lots of settings options (more than I've been able to try) and I'm not sure why anyone would mod it. I'm still breaking in a pair of new Sovtek 12AX7LPS's. I'm sure tube-rolling is about the only change I'll make other than trying different power cords. I've read a lot of comments suggesting that Jolida components do well with upgraded power cords, but I've only tried it with the Jolida cdp. I've yet to be able to articulate any differences in sound. I never intended to go all Jolida, but after starting out with an integrated amp, I eventually added their cdp and most recently their phono amp. I've been pleased with my transition from solid state to tubes.

poppachubby
12-01-2009, 03:48 AM
I thought the Jolida was a good fit for you too John, remember? I think you had thought that you wanted to go bigger and better. I agree with you though, it's tough when you can't try it out first.

Anyhow, you have a hard decision to make. Are there any models that you have given any thought to? I mean aside from the Dyna...

JohnMichael
12-01-2009, 11:50 AM
The Cambridge Audio 640P is a pretty good sounding phono preamp. What really got me looking was the ability to properly load the Benz. When I buy a phono preamp I want it to be adjustable and sound better than the CA 640P. I do not want to go crazy in price for a preamp for a $300 cart in a $500 table. Many of you are right I should be looking for used. Yes and I have considered the Jolida. It also has the adjustments I am looking for at a good price.

E-Stat
12-01-2009, 12:29 PM
Many of you are right I should be looking for used. Yes and I have considered the Jolida. It also has the adjustments I am looking for at a good price.
Another approach to the loading issue is via inexpensive Y-adapters as seen here. (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=vinyl&n=848566)

You're getting close to the budget of a used Audio Research PH-3 (http://www.arcdb.ws/PH3/PH3.html).

rw

slate1
12-01-2009, 03:35 PM
It might help if you let us know what it is you feel the CA is missing. What are you trying to achieve with an "upgrade"?

I'll echo everyone else on the used Audiogon gear. I've bought literally dozens of items via Audiogon and as long as you stick with those who have stellar feedback I've never had a single problem. The great thing is that it's the only way to truly get your money back out of the gear if you decide you don't like it.

Anyhow - let us know some more details as to what your goals are and I may be able to help you down the right path.

JohnMichael
12-01-2009, 03:44 PM
It might help if you let us know what it is you feel the CA is missing. What are you trying to achieve with an "upgrade"?

I'll echo everyone else on the used Audiogon gear. I've bought literally dozens of items via Audiogon and as long as you stick with those who have stellar feedback I've never had a single problem. The great thing is that it's the only way to truly get your money back out of the gear if you decide you don't like it.

Anyhow - let us know some more details as to what your goals are and I may be able to help you down the right path.




The Cambridge Audio 640P is a pretty good sounding phono preamp. What really got me looking was the ability to properly load the Benz. When I buy a phono preamp I want it to be adjustable and sound better than the CA 640P. I do not want to go crazy in price for a preamp for a $300 cart in a $500 table. Many of you are right I should be looking for used. Yes and I have considered the Jolida. It also has the adjustments I am looking for at a good price.


Other than the loading of the cartridge maybe a more defined soundstage. I really have no chief complaints about the CA but I would like to hear how much better a step up may sound.

JohnMichael
12-01-2009, 06:09 PM
Well I have signed up for Paypal so watch out Audiogon.

E-Stat
12-01-2009, 06:15 PM
Well I have signed up for Paypal so watch out Audiogon.
Hopefully, you didn't give them your checking account number. :)

rw

JohnMichael
12-01-2009, 06:56 PM
Hopefully, you didn't give them your checking account number. :)

rw



Is that a bad idea?

02audionoob
12-01-2009, 08:03 PM
I've been paying PayPal out of my checking account for several years. I've never had a problem with them.

E-Stat
12-02-2009, 06:02 AM
Is that a bad idea?
You have zero protection from having them seize money from your account for a number of reasons. Google "paypal lawsuits" to get a flavor. Unless you plan to do a lot of business in terms of receiving payments, I find that using my American Express card for purchases works fine and I get the protection backed by the credit card company. When I ask folks why they voluntarily open themselves up to potential fraud, I have yet to get a good answer. Why take the risk? What is the benefit?

rw

02audionoob
12-02-2009, 06:11 AM
Although this looks like a 2-way conversation, I did a Google search on "paypal lawsuits" and it looks to me like people with problems they contributed to.

E-Stat
12-02-2009, 06:49 AM
Although this looks like a 2-way conversation, I did a Google search on "paypal lawsuits" and it looks to me like people with problems they contributed to.
I've heard other stories. So, what do you see as the benefit of using your checking account instead of a protected credit card?

rw

02audionoob
12-02-2009, 07:22 AM
I've heard other stories. So, what do you see as the benefit of using your checking account instead of a protected credit card?

rw

For me, linking a checking account has simply been convenience and speed. For example, when I have a balance from selling something I can easily and quickly get that money into my checking account with an electronic transfer executed within PayPal.

When it comes to paying for things, the option of using a credit card is always available. You can pay that way even through PayPal and even when you have a linked bank account. If you have a dispute that PayPal will not resolve to your satisfaction, you can still take it up with your credit card company.

Over the years, I've had increasingly more trouble with eBay transactions and in all my disputes PayPal has decided in my favor...not because I'm special or lucky...I've just been right.

E-Stat
12-02-2009, 07:34 AM
I can easily and quickly get that money into my checking account with an electronic transfer executed within PayPal.
That is the only benefit I see. In my case, I've always found a place to spend it!


When it comes to paying for things, the option of using a credit card is always available.
A chargeback, however, would always be taken from your bank account. Even if you *win* after arguing a case, you have to wait for your money to be reimbursed. If I were to ever have a problem with a purchase, I would write AMEX (and the seller) and explain why I'm not paying for the never delivered, misrepresented or damaged goods.

rw

02audionoob
12-02-2009, 07:41 AM
A chargeback, however, would always be taken from your bank account.

Do you know for sure that that is happening to people who are right and honest in the ttransaction? That's not how it's supposed to work. If your credit card charges it back to PayPal, PayPal should be charging it back to the seller. You then forfeit your right to PayPal's assistance in dispute resolution on that transaction. I'm just going from memory on this. I think it's explained in the PayPal agreement.

E-Stat
12-02-2009, 07:56 AM
Do you know for sure that that is happening to people who are right and honest in the ttransaction?
I refer to a different scenario and yes, I've heard of situations with honest sellers getting defrauded.

1. You are the seller.
2. You sell something and get paid via Paypal into your account (no CC involved)
3. Buyer balks about something and complains to Paypal
4. Paypal reverses the payment and drafts your bank account
5. You are out merchandise and money until you successfully defend yourself

rw

02audionoob
12-02-2009, 08:40 AM
I refer to a different scenario and yes, I've heard of situations with honest sellers getting defrauded.

1. You are the seller.
2. You sell something and get paid via Paypal into your account (no CC involved)
3. Buyer balks about something and complains to Paypal
4. Paypal reverses the payment and drafts your bank account
5. You are out merchandise and money until you successfully defend yourself

rw

I'd say that's just the risk you take to sell online. Going through a 3rd party like PayPal enhances the level of trust the buyer can have and therefore increases your ability to sell the item. You have to keep good records so you can make your case when the time comes.

I'm not here to defend or advocate PayPal. I just know I have always gotten adequate service and have been satisfied with all my transactions.

E-Stat
12-02-2009, 08:49 AM
I'd say that's just the risk you take to sell online.
Only if you choose that risk vs. convenience approach. I can always have Paypal send me a check.

rw

02audionoob
12-02-2009, 09:37 AM
Only if you choose that risk vs. convenience approach. I can always have Paypal send me a check.

rw

I don't understand. When a seller accepts online payments, isn't there always a risk associated with receiving that payment, such as a dispute filed by the buyer?

E-Stat
12-02-2009, 09:42 AM
I don't understand. When a seller accepts online payments, isn't there always a risk associated with receiving that payment, such as a dispute filed by the buyer?
they can always dispute, but not immediately seize money from your bank account!

rw

02audionoob
12-02-2009, 09:48 AM
OK...you win.

jupiterboy
12-06-2009, 10:38 AM
I have this unit and like it very much. It is, to my ear, very neutral and revealing, with good bass extension and an overall fair presentation with good dynamic impact.

I had the Jolida for a few weeks and it was not the right fit for my system.

I would recommend the Phonomena II with a tube output system that could benefit from the speed of the SS stage. To be fair, I currently use a prototype that was modified for my system by Michael Yee. I am using a MM cart and wanted more loading and capacitance options than were stock.

My gear for reference:

AMC CVT-3030a Tube amp
Vandersteen 1b Speaker
Sota Comet sIII S300 arm Turntable
Audio-Technica USA 150MLX Cartridge
Musical Surroundings Phonomena II Preamplifier
Incognito Copper Tone Arm Wire Tweak
Pete Rigel Counterweight for the Common Man Tweak
Oppo DV-980H CD Player
AudioQuest Coral Interconnect
Denon TU-280 Tuner

JohnMichael
12-07-2009, 03:34 PM
I have this unit and like it very much. It is, to my ear, very neutral and revealing, with good bass extension and an overall fair presentation with good dynamic impact.

I had the Jolida for a few weeks and it was not the right fit for my system.

I would recommend the Phonomena II with a tube output system that could benefit from the speed of the SS stage. To be fair, I currently use a prototype that was modified for my system by Michael Yee. I am using a MM cart and wanted more loading and capacitance options than were stock.

My gear for reference:

AMC CVT-3030a Tube amp
Vandersteen 1b Speaker
Sota Comet sIII S300 arm Turntable
Audio-Technica USA 150MLX Cartridge
Musical Surroundings Phonomena II Preamplifier
Incognito Copper Tone Arm Wire Tweak
Pete Rigel Counterweight for the Common Man Tweak
Oppo DV-980H CD Player
AudioQuest Coral Interconnect
Denon TU-280 Tuner



Welcome to AudioReview. I noticed that you also used the Incognito rewire and are using a replacement counterweight. I thought about the Phonomena II but ended up buying Graham Slee's Gram Amp3 "Fanfare". I have spent much time reading reviews and looking at specs. The Fanfare is a moving coil preamp for low output cartridges only.

It arrived today and what I noticed most was a much wider soundstage, more extended highs and a more open midrange. The Fanfare will accept cartridges with outputs as low as .2mV and this sensitivity has given me the dynamics I have wanted. I also own the Cambridge Audio 640P and the Rotel RQ 970BX that I can use for MM cartridges. Out of the box the Fanfare is superior to both when using the Benz MC Gold. I look forward to it's sound after the continued burn in that I have read it needs. I will post more in a week or two.

Jim Eck
12-07-2009, 04:26 PM
Just thought this might be of interest regarding the original post. Bottleheads.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue46/tape_project.htm

Jim

nightflier
12-08-2009, 02:57 PM
JohnMichael,

As a long time user of the Phonomena (first generation), I have to say that it's a phono preamp that punches way above it's weight class. The Phonomena II is an improvement in that you don't need to remove the cover to change settings. I've been considering an upgrade to the Jolida, but like you I've read multiple recommendations that it really does need upgrades and better tubes, thus bringing the price up.

A few others I am considering:

Grado PH-1 (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/12296/Grado-PH-1_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Clearaudio Smart-Phono (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/15864/Clearaudio-Smart-Phono_Phono_Premamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Pro-ject Tube Box SE-II (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/41770/Pro-Ject-Tube_Box_SE_II-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Sutherland Ph3D (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/35533/Sutherland-Sutherland_Ph3D_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Aqvox - Phono 2Ci Balanced Phono Preamp (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/38656/Aqvox-Phono_2Ci_MKII_Balanced_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

The thought of running a sensitive component like a phono preamp off of batteries has always seemed to make more sense to me. Phonomena also makes one that runs off a recharchable battery, the Nova Phonomena (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/38118/Musical_Surroundings-Nova_Phonomena_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps), which you can leave plugged in, but then automatically disconnects from power when in use - very cool.

Of course, if you are willing to purchase used, there are lots of other options, including this first generation Phonomena cover-less listed on eBay for $345:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Musical-Surroundings-Phonomena-phonostage-II-MO_W0QQitemZ180384100200QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item29ffbaef68

It's been listed for a while (probably because it lacks a cover), so you may be able to haggle with the seller and get a better price. You can probably score a second-hand Phonomena cover from Musical Surroundings for very little.

dean_martin
12-08-2009, 06:10 PM
congrats on the Gram Amp3! Keep us posted.

poppachubby
12-08-2009, 06:22 PM
JohnMichael,

As a long time user of the Phonomena (first generation), I have to say that it's a phono preamp that punches way above it's weight class. The Phonomena II is an improvement in that you don't need to remove the cover to change settings. I've been considering an upgrade to the Jolida, but like you I've read multiple recommendations that it really does need upgrades and better tubes, thus bringing the price up.

A few others I am considering:

Grado PH-1 (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/12296/Grado-PH-1_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Clearaudio Smart-Phono (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/15864/Clearaudio-Smart-Phono_Phono_Premamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Pro-ject Tube Box SE-II (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/41770/Pro-Ject-Tube_Box_SE_II-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Sutherland Ph3D (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/35533/Sutherland-Sutherland_Ph3D_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

Aqvox - Phono 2Ci Balanced Phono Preamp (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/38656/Aqvox-Phono_2Ci_MKII_Balanced_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps)

The thought of running a sensitive component like a phono preamp off of batteries has always seemed to make more sense to me. Phonomena also makes one that runs off a recharchable battery, the Nova Phonomena (http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/38118/Musical_Surroundings-Nova_Phonomena_Phono_Preamp-Phono_Pre_Amps), which you can leave plugged in, but then automatically disconnects from power when in use - very cool.

Of course, if you are willing to purchase used, there are lots of other options, including this first generation Phonomena cover-less listed on eBay for $345:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Musical-Surroundings-Phonomena-phonostage-II-MO_W0QQitemZ180384100200QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defa ultDomain_0?hash=item29ffbaef68

It's been listed for a while (probably because it lacks a cover), so you may be able to haggle with the seller and get a better price. You can probably score a second-hand Phonomena cover from Musical Surroundings for very little.


Any pre amp can be a battery operated pre amp... I already posted to that effect on page 1...I almost have this up and running perfectly. I am running 2 12 volt batteries in series with a fuse and then plugging into the input. It's dead quiet and is drawing all the power it needs. I can't beleive how awesome it sounds.


http://forums.audioreview.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6389&stc=1&d=1259436527

Phonomena can suck the big one...

nightflier
12-09-2009, 12:26 PM
Phonomena can suck the big one...

Huh?

Regarding the battery discussion, yes, I saw what you posted. Very interesting, but not exactly out-of-the-box, which is I think what the OP was looking for.

poppachubby
12-09-2009, 06:12 PM
Huh?

Regarding the battery discussion, yes, I saw what you posted. Very interesting, but not exactly out-of-the-box, which is I think what the OP was looking for.

NF, I'm not suggesting it for John. I'm saying the concept of batteries can be applied to the stage of choice, if one really wants. Obviously, Phonomena make a great product.

JohnMichael
12-21-2009, 02:16 PM
Well I think the Gram Amp 3 has been used enough to be sounding it's best. The phono preamp is detailed and extended but not bright. I am now hearing the benefits of using a low output moving coil cartridge. The Benz/Graham combo is giving me great dynamics. I used to think the Benz was slow and compressed sounding through both the Rotel and the Cambridge Audio preamps. Now I am enjoying faster transient speed which is bringing more excitement to the music. Bass is tighter and better defined. The Gram Amp 3 is a low output MC cartridge preamp only and it far exceeds the moving coil settings of the Rotel and Cambridge Audio phono preamps. There is much more vinyl spinning with the arrival of the Gram Amp 3.

jrhymeammo
12-27-2009, 09:26 AM
It's nice to hear MD had redeemed themselves. But more importantly, congrats on your purchase. How about some pics? I would love to see internal components as well.

Have a great year!

JohnMichael
12-27-2009, 11:43 AM
It's nice to hear MD had redeemed themselves. But more importantly, congrats on your purchase. How about some pics? I would love to see internal components as well.

Have a great year!



My Torx drivers are too small to open it. The preamp is very small and light but puts out a big sound. I will work on some pictures and I think I need a size 10 Torx.