Power Cords.

[frenchmon]

Has anybody ever used external replacement power cords for their gear? If so what where the reults? All of my gear goes through a power conditioner so would it make and sense to get better external power cords?

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Has anybody ever used external replacement power cords for their gear? If so what where the reults?
frenchmon

Yep, I bought an Acoustic Research AC cord for an old CDP. It was supposed to help with regulating power. I can honestly say the results were that I had a nice purple cord on the end of my CDP. It was grounded which was good I suppose, but no sonic improvements, that's for sure.

Here it is except mine was purple... http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Research-Performance-3-PIN-Grounded/dp/B000I3C476/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_0

[Glen B]

I use high end power cords in my 2-channel system, and have had improvements. With my HT systems I use plain-Jane cords. I don't see any reason to waste time using aftermarket power cords with mid-fi equipment which may not have the resolving ability to reveal any differences. BTW, check out the following post on power cords by Ralph Karsten, the designer/owner of Atma-Sphere high end electronics.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1249822202&openflup&36&4#36

[blackraven]

I use an upgraded audioquest power cord and I cant tell the difference. I've tried it on various pieces of equipment and it all sounds the same.

[E-Stat]

Has anybody ever used external replacement power cords for their gear? If so what where the reults? All of my gear goes through a power conditioner so would it make and sense to get better external power cords?
I would never source a power amp through a conditioner, especially the 10 amp per monoblock VTL tube amps. With few very expensive exceptions (Nordost, Audience, Shunyata, etc.), they limit current and thus dynamic range. I run all my power amps and the speaker power supplies through JPS Labs, Harmonic Technology and some DIY after market cords. Result? Better bass punch and low level resolution through better RFI rejection. I run the sources through conditioners.

The usual canard is that after miles and miles of wire, how can the last three feet make any difference? The problem with that myopic view is that the cords represent the first three feet in an environment most likely polluted with any number of digital switching power supplies. There was an old TV repairman here by the name of Woodman who staunchly asserted that there was no possible way that any power cord could ever make a difference. Naturally, he had zero actual experience with any aftermarket cord and relied entirely upon his speculation and imagination. The concept of cords actually having active RFI filter networks and shielding was beyond his ability to comprehend. I can think of some others here today who will likely share that same view. :)

rw

[harley .guy07]

I myself would say with power amps it could make a difference seeing that they are higher current drawing components that relly on the input power to amplify. With preamps and cdp's and lower current drawing components I would say the difference would be small at best, most likely it would not make a differnce.

[Mr Peabody]

Actually, Harley, it's just the opposite in my experience. Lower level components benefit the most.

Several years ago the guys at Music For Pleasure threw me a Transparent power cord to try. I went in to borrow a 6 outlet power conditioner. I tried the conditioner by itself and did not like it. As E-stat referred to the conditioner, I suspect, limited the current to my Krell and the result was a weaker presentation. So with that set aside I remembered the power cord. I honestly didn't think a power cord could make a difference. After trying it first on my CD player I was amazed at the improvement. I began to rotate the power cord to each of my components. Each demonstrated an improvement. The largest, most noticeable was in the CD player and phono preamp. So I when I took the outlet device back I bought a power cord for every component in my system that allowed a replacement. Remind me to show you behind the sceens you will see the Quintessence with several after market Transparent power cords coming from it. I do have one MIT Z-cord I bought for my Linn amp. It worked beautifully on it. I have not compared the Transparent against the MIT, too much trouble. I highly recommend trying one of the Transparent and MFP will allow you to audition one before you buy.

[Smokey]

I The concept of cords actually having active RFI filter networks and shielding was beyond his ability to comprehend.

rw


You really have to look at PC in an opposite view.

Power cords are probably the biggest source of low frequency noise interference (EMI) in an audio system due to its high current. And shielding it to reduce its EMI emission to its surrounding (or to protect it from outside EMI) at low frequency is useless since you will need a really thick shielding (2 inches copper at 60 Hz) to be any useful at lower frequency protection.

The best way to combat this situation is to use cable geometry to fight low noise interference. Cable such as Canare 4S11 that have four wire “Star Quad” configuration. Such a configuration not only have advantage of reducing EM field around the cable (to reduce emiision), it reduces susceptibility to electro-magnetically (EM) induced noise from outside sources too.

[Mr Peabody]

I should add the improvement won't be like when you swiched CD players. I hate to say more subtle but I think to most it will be. What you will notice is a quieter background, easier to hear fine detail and I noticed less of what I can only call glare on digital playback. When I refer to "noise", you'll say, "well I don't hear noise now." It's not apparent until you hear it gone. The noise floor dropped significantly on my phono stage. The one I use is not cheap, I was surprised at what a difference it made.

At the time I added the power cables my system amplification and CDP was all Krell. I noticed what I mentioned above but I didn't note any improvement to frequency response like when changing to high quality speaker cables or RCA's. To me the improvement was well worth the expense but I can see how maybe to others it might not be.

I'll have to pick one up and try it on the ERC to see what happens.

[harley .guy07]

Well I stand corrected. I would think the highest current drawing component would benifit the most with upgraded power cables. But I trust your judgement as you have been a realiable source before for info, and the fact that you have worked with a lot of different brands of high end stuff helps.

[frenchmon]

Yep, I bought an Acoustic Research AC cord for an old CDP. It was supposed to help with regulating power. I can honestly say the results were that I had a nice purple cord on the end of my CDP. It was grounded which was good I suppose, but no sonic improvements, that's for sure.

Here it is except mine was purple... http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Research-Performance-3-PIN-Grounded/dp/B000I3C476/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_0

Thanks pappaC. Is there suppose to be sonic improvement or a better feed to the gear? You think it nothing but snake oil?

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I use high end power cords in my 2-channel system, and have had improvements. With my HT systems I use plain-Jane cords. I don't see any reason to waste time using aftermarket power cords with mid-fi equipment which may not have the resolving ability to reveal any differences. BTW, check out the following post on power cords by Ralph Karsten, the designer/owner of Atma-Sphere high end electronics.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1249822202&openflup&36&4#36


HI Glen B....dont know where but I know you from another forum. Thanks for the article...I guess its not all snake oil. But from reading the post, I'm better off without them.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I use an upgraded audioquest power cord and I cant tell the difference. I've tried it on various pieces of equipment and it all sounds the same.

It seems it depends on what grade of gear your fall in...does that make sense?

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Thanks pappaC. Is there suppose to be sonic improvement or a better feed to the gear? You think it nothing but snake oil?

frenchmon

No, not at all. I think E-Stat hit it on the head. Read his post. I also agree with him that messing with an amps intake could prove troublesome. The CDP I used it for wasn't of the highest quality, perhaps this was the problem.

I think coupled with the right unit, this could serve as a nice upgrade. My thoughts are that it would lower the noise floor that crumby, unpolarized cords are know for adding to. This in turn should bring some of the music to the forefront. Really for the cost, try it out. Best to see for yourself. The AR cord I linked you probably isn't the greatest either, check and see for others.

I am in the process of adding an extra breaker line for my equipment. I will have one for analog and one for digital. This will serve as an alternative to power conditioning, at a much cheaper cost for me. I will be sure to let you know how it goes Frenchy, I plan to photograph and make a thread. Is this an option for you?


What exactly are you looking to do? Replace an existing cord on a source?

[frenchmon]

I would never source a power amp through a conditioner, especially the 10 amp per monoblock VTL tube amps. With few very expensive exceptions (Nordost, Audience, Shunyata, etc.), they limit current and thus dynamic range. I run all my power amps and the speaker power supplies through JPS Labs, Harmonic Technology and some DIY after market cords. Result? Better bass punch and low level resolution through better RFI rejection. I run the sources through conditioners.

The usual canard is that after miles and miles of wire, how can the last three feet make any difference? The problem with that myopic view is that the cords represent the first three feet in an environment most likely polluted with any number of digital switching power supplies. There was an old TV repairman here by the name of Woodman who staunchly asserted that there was no possible way that any power cord could ever make a difference. Naturally, he had zero actual experience with any aftermarket cord and relied entirely upon his speculation and imagination. The concept of cords actually having active RFI filter networks and shielding was beyond his ability to comprehend. I can think of some others here today who will likely share that same view. :)

rw

So are you recommending that I should not run my amp through the power console? Its only a Rotel RB 1080 @ 200 per channel. Would I benefit by going directly into the wall?

I have a Belkin power console PF31 and its very convenient. I hit one botton and everything turns on or off with the amp on a delay and I know I have some sorta protection.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Would I benefit by going directly into the wall?


frenchmon

I don't want to speak for E-Stat, however I just had this conversation with him not too long ago. In essence yes, he's telling you to plug into the wall. However, there can be alot of issues with digital and analog devices when they are plugged in series together. Essentially the digital stuff throws alot of interference back into the wall, this creates havoc for your analog gear.

This is why I have chosen to have an additional line put in. I have one extra slot in my breaker box. My buddy who is an electrician will run a line for me and hook up 2 or 3 plugs in series. I will use the existing plugs for digital and the new ones for analog.

My suggestion is, if possible of course, try to run either your analog or digital to a different line and see what happens. Another good test of this would be to completely disconnect either one entirely from the chain and see how the other sounds. E-Stat has told me the results are subtle.

[frenchmon]

I should add the improvement won't be like when you swiched CD players. I hate to say more subtle but I think to most it will be. What you will notice is a quieter background, easier to hear fine detail and I noticed less of what I can only call glare on digital playback. When I refer to "noise", you'll say, "well I don't hear noise now." It's not apparent until you hear it gone. The noise floor dropped significantly on my phono stage. The one I use is not cheap, I was surprised at what a difference it made.

At the time I added the power cables my system amplification and CDP was all Krell. I noticed what I mentioned above but I didn't note any improvement to frequency response like when changing to high quality speaker cables or RCA's. To me the improvement was well worth the expense but I can see how maybe to others it might not be.

I'll have to pick one up and try it on the ERC to see what happens.

Yeah....I was under the understanding that midfi was not worth it.

[E-Stat]

Power cords are probably the biggest source of low frequency noise interference (EMI) in an audio system due to its high current. And shielding it to reduce its EMI emission to its surrounding (or to protect it from outside EMI) at low frequency is useless since you will need a really thick shielding (2 inches copper at 60 Hz) to be any useful at lower frequency protection.
Who said anything about shielding against 60 hz? Useless? Only to those who have never used them and have trouble imagining the improvements. Especially when you are incapable of speculating about what's important. Great straw man argument!


The best way to combat this situation is to use cable geometry to fight low noise interference.
Why do you incorrectly assume this is not being done with aftermarket cords? I can tell you that both the JPS Labs Power AC+ and the Harmonic Tech use multiple sets of conductors.

rw

[E-Stat]

So are you recommending that I should not run my amp through the power console? Its only a Rotel RB 1080 @ 200 per channel. Would I benefit by going directly into the wall?
My experience says yes when it comes to dynamics and bass punch.


I have a Belkin power console PF31 and its very convenient. I hit one botton and everything turns on or off with the amp on a delay and I know I have some sorta protection.
As for me, I've never in decades had trouble running amps directly to the wall.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

I liken Acoustic Research cables to Monoprice. You can't compare either to what a decent quality cable will do.

Poppa is correct that dedicated line for audio is supposed to make a great deal of difference.

It's not the improvement in juice received by the amp with an aftermarket cord as much as it is cleaning the power coming in.

Definitely try plugging the power amp directly into the wall. Many of the smaller power conditioners can actually limit the current flow. Unless the unit specifically says no current limiting or the rated amperage is higher than what your amp is rated to draw.

[poppachubby]

I liken Acoustic Research cables to Monoprice. .

Ouch! Please Mr. Peabody, let me have my disillusioned fantasy. I do think that AR would rank a little better than Monoprice, but that's not here or there really.

Oh BTW, in my fantasy, the producers of fine, high quality cables are all in a row, on their knees with hands tied behind their backs. As I slowly walk along behind them, I am using my Pro Series II cables to whip their exposed backs. As I forcefully ask them "Who's your daddy?!?", they reply "AR is....AR is my (sobbing) daddddyyyy...."

Twisted? Oh no, not at all?!? MMMMMMmmwhahahahhahaha........

[E-Stat]

I do think that AR would rank a little better than Monoprice, but that's not here or there really.
I can recommend a couple of DIY recipes (also available pre-assembled) using shielded Belden cable and high quality connectors that don't break the bank. The least expensive option uses 19364 SJT cord and is available from DIY Cable (http://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=100). I use a pair of these on the speaker power supplies. A step up uses 83803 which is both larger gauge and is double shielded. I made one of these which I use either with my preamp or CDP. The recipe can be found here. (http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/diyMains/)

Both are also available either in components or finished form at Zebra cables. (http://zebracables.com/items.html)

You'll note these don't have to be terribly expensive and I've found them to be a step above low end commercial stuff which is more of a cosmetic enhancement than anything else. The 83803 cable, however, is pretty stiff!

rw

[poppachubby]

I can recommend a couple of DIY recipes rw

I am deep into research of DIY cables E-Stat. JoeSP9 already tipped me off. I am partial to Belden 89529 using Furutech supplies. I will also be making some silver core with the arrival of my Golden Tube.

Thanks for the tip though "dubbya", I will check out your links. I am really excited about this project. Joe emailed me a Risch recipe that I'm pretty pumped about.

Here's my main source right now, although I'm sure you've been: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/power.htm

Also I am getting supplies from PartConnexion, a Canadian store. What can you recommend for plugs? Are Cardas really the best? I think I'll try the Furutech for now, the pair I'm looking at is mid-range, approx. $40 CDN.

Perhaps my fantasy will extend to me wacking these cable guys with my very own DIY cable. Ooooooo sexy!!

[Glen B]

HI Glen B....dont know where but I know you from another forum.

AVS Forum ?

[blackraven]

My power amp draws 1800watts and any cable I use must be 12g or heavier or rated to handle 1800watts and greater than 15 amps.

[E-Stat]

JoeSP9 already tipped me off. I am partial to Belden 89529 using Furutech supplies.
The braided 89259 works fine for speaker wire, but you would never use coax as a power cord! The two I mentioned are eminently better suited for AC use. I've used some of Jon Risch' recipes for room treatments as well. He is a mod over at AA.


Joe emailed me a Risch recipe that I'm pretty pumped about.
The resulting cable has very good LCR characteristics for IC or speaker use.


Also I am getting supplies from PartConnexion, a Canadian store. What can you recommend for plugs? Are Cardas really the best? I think I'll try the Furutech for now, the pair I'm looking at is mid-range, approx. $40 CDN.
I'm partial to Cardas, but Furutech is also a reputable supplier.


Perhaps my fantasy will extend to me wacking these cable guys with my very own DIY cable. Ooooooo sexy!!
I've been making my own cables for thirty years now. You definitely get the most bang for your buck!

rw

[frenchmon]

AVS Forum ?

Yeap thats it....They don't believe cable can make a difference over there. I ran into a lots of problems. They think its all snake oil and a waste of money.


frenchmon

[frenchmon]

To use a power conditioner that really cleans the power, it must be dirty to begin with it seems? Would that then depend on what kinda power you are pulling? From what I understand, some neighborhoods pull cleaner power than others.

frenchmon

[squidboyw]

I have used at least 15 different brands and types of power cords. Results can and do very. Like many other types of gear, matching is important.

Our local audiophile group was able to collect a batch of 6 or so power cords and we did a shoot-out over 3 days. The results confirmed that not all power cords are equal and more money spent doesn't mean better sound. Testing was done off the CD player.

The most common result of a power cord (here after referred to as PC) upgrade, at least in the system used for testing, was a much lower noise floor and a better more defined and tight bass. In terms of the bass, it was much like the difference between being hit with a 1 gal. pail of water vs. being hit with a 1 gal water balloon; it was a lot tighter with much greater impact. We also experienced changes in the soundstage / imaging with a number of the PC.

My current amp has a captive PC but with the previous amp, I was able to experiment.
I went from a mid level Monster,
to Transparent,
to a home brew Chris Venhaus design,
to Purist Audio Design Dominus.
They all changed the sound and it was always better than the stock PC.

That being said, if you first don't have your speakers set up properly and some other basic items taken care of, you'll probably be wasting your hard earned $$ on upscale PC.

Squiddy

PS and yes, I do use a power conditioner in addition to better PCs.

[frenchmon]

I have used at least 15 different brands and types of power cords. Results can and do very. Like many other types of gear, matching is important.

Our local audiophile group was able to collect a batch of 6 or so power cords and we did a shoot-out over 3 days. The results confirmed that not all power cords are equal and more money spent doesn't mean better sound. Testing was done off the CD player.

The most common result of a power cord (here after referred to as PC) upgrade, at least in the system used for testing, was a much lower noise floor and a better more defined and tight bass. In terms of the bass, it was much like the difference between being hit with a 1 gal. pail of water vs. being hit with a 1 gal water balloon; it was a lot tighter with much greater impact. We also experienced changes in the soundstage / imaging with a number of the PC.

My current amp has a captive PC but with the previous amp, I was able to experiment.
I went from a mid level Monster,
to Transparent,
to a home brew Chris Venhaus design,
to Purist Audio Design Dominus.
They all changed the sound and it was always better than the stock PC.

That being said, if you first don't have your speakers set up properly and some other basic items taken care of, you'll probably be wasting your hard earned $$ on upscale PC.

Squiddy

PS and yes, I do use a power conditioner in addition to better PCs.

Thanks P. Sqiddy ahhh Squiddy...(sorry couldn't resist) So you do use a power conditioner with your power cords. May I ask if the conditioner is in the same price range as the cords? And do you plug your amp into the conditioner or the wall?

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

The braided 89259 works fine for speaker wire, but you would never use coax as a power cord! The two I mentioned are eminently better suited for AC use. I've used some of Jon Risch' recipes for room treatments as well. He is a mod over at AA.


The resulting cable has very good LCR characteristics for IC or speaker use.


I'm partial to Cardas, but Furutech is also a reputable supplier.


I've been making my own cables for thirty years now. You definitely get the most bang for your buck!

rw


E Stat, I thought you were talking about inter connects for DIY!!! My mind is so focused on the IC's... of course you were talking about power cord DIY, that's what the thread is about. You'll have to excuse me, very tired.

I haven't given any thought to DIY cords, I have been wrapped up in the IC's. It would be a great option for me because most of my equipment requires a hardwire anyhow. Thanks again dubbya.

[Mr Peabody]

I have a power conditioner as well which I added a couple years down the road after adding the PC's, but it has designated outlets that don't limit current especially for large power amps.

[frenchmon]

E Stat, I thought you were talking about inter connects for DIY!!! My mind is so focused on the IC's... of course you were talking about power cord DIY, that's what the thread is about. You'll have to excuse me, very tired.

I haven't given any thought to DIY cords, I have been wrapped up in the IC's. It would be a great option for me because most of my equipment requires a hardwire anyhow. Thanks again dubbya.

Speaking of DIY IC's...are you still going to try and make the Analysis Plus cables?

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I have a power conditioner as well which I added a couple years down the road after adding the PC's, but it has designated outlets that don't limit current especially for large power amps.

I was at Wylies today talking to him about power conditioners. He said if the conditioner has a big enough power supply as his does...it wont diminish or limit the current at all.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I have a power conditioner as well which I added a couple years down the road after adding the PC's, but it has designated outlets that don't limit current especially for large power amps.

It seems what I have high current outlets as well...and it cleans the power as well with a big power supply . But if the console is doing all this, why an after market power cord? How can that help if the power console is doing it?



* Level 4 Power Protection
* Phase 3 PureFilter™ Circuitry with video, audio, and HiCurrent™ filters
* Advanced Overvoltage Protection
* Convenient console design fits perfectly in your home theater cabinet
* LED status display including input voltage and output current
* 2 HiCurrent outlets for high-power amplifiers
* Lifetime Warranty
* $500,000 Connected Equipment Warranty
* 11 surge-protected outlets
* 5605 joules of surge protection
* 285,000-Amp maximum spike current
* 2 pairs of gold coaxial connections for coaxial-cable protection
* 10 ft. SD750 HiCurrent™ power cord with right-angle plug
* UL 1449 Rated

The Power Console PF31 is perfect for people who are serious about their audio or home theater system. With 11 outlets and Phase 3 PureFilter Circuitry, the PF31 has three separate filters to provide clean and clear power to all of your audio, video, and HiCurrent components. The Power Console PF31 enhances your home theater experience at an affordable price.

Each PureAV Power Console is packed with innovative features, such as Multi-Phase PureFilter Circuitry, designed to remove electrical noise and provide clean and clear power to all of your valuable equipment. It isolates audio, video and digital components, and prevents noise created by one connected component from contaminating the entire system.

Built-in Advanced Overvoltage Protection automatically disconnects power from your equipment when the input voltage reaches a dangerous level, and restores power automatically when the voltage returns to a safe level.
Features


frenchmon

[E-Stat]

To use a power conditioner that really cleans the power, it must be dirty to begin with it seems?
The problems are NOT typically on the incoming power. The villains live inside your house! They are the many digital devices that happily spew radiated garbage back into the line. Conditioners also prevent "backwash" from a digital device getting back into the AC.

rw

[squidboyw]

Thanks P. Sqiddy ahhh Squiddy...(sorry couldn't resist) So you do use a power conditioner with your power cords. May I ask if the conditioner is in the same price range as the cords? And do you plug your amp into the conditioner or the wall?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Until I get the coin to pick up a Furman unit, the amp goes directly into its own 30 amp circuit with cryo treated outlet and isolated ground.

My current conditioner is the ancient but once well regarded Tice Power Block & Titan energy storage unit (slightly modified). I have added cryo treated outlets and grounded them. Since it is going on 25 yrs old, I plan to recap it and add a better power cord. The Tice is more or less a huge isolation transformer, When I purchased it in 1985 or 6, it was $2400 (if I was a real guy, I'd figure out how to upload a pic).

My most expensive (and the best) PCs are the Purist Dominus at about $1000 per.

If you wish to read the review I did of all the PCs we tested, go here:

http://newaudiosociety.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1122138804

I have tried an Exact Power conditioner in my system and it is very nice (but expensive).
Review here:

http://newaudiosociety.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1186106864

In our local group, the two most popular conditioners are Furmans and Equi=Tech. A few individuals run Furmans ahead of everything else and then plug their additional conditioners into those, including one person who uses a huge PS audio (the 1000, I think).

[Smokey]

Who said anything about shielding against 60 hz?

You did not get the point I was getting at :)

Many people change their power cords to achieve lower noise figure-such as you said-RFI filter networks and shielding, but forget about biggest noise source-the PC itself. So if you are serious about combating noise, start with PC that address its own emission to its surrounding.



Useless?Only to those who have never used them and have trouble imagining the improvements.

If we are talking about low frequency protection, then yes, the shielding are useless. Speculation are easy, but it does not change the fact that shielding at lower frequency are not too effective. Just look it up and I give you hand...post #10

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=27894&highlight=shielding


Why do you incorrectly assume this is not being done with aftermarket cords? I can tell you that both the JPS Labs Power AC+ and the Harmonic Tech use multiple sets of conductors.

But for what purpose?

JPS Labs site said that their Power AC+' "Optimized Field Matrix' (O.F.M.)" design is to increases the cords effectiveness in carrying the instantaneous current demanded (whatever that means). It does not say anything about combating noise.

[squidboyw]

I have referenced Furman equipment several times. This is a link to a discussion a member of our local group wrote. This guy designs and builds SET tube units and does the designs in his head! I kind of understand what he is talking about sometimes, but he is WAY smarter than I am.

Anyway, it is not so much dirty power that some conditioners work to clean, it is the consistency of the power. The technical term is Power Factor. Furman unit address this.

Here is the link:

http://newaudiosociety.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1149518816

The thread is long but the sections by 'SET' are the one's to read.

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not an EE but I thought unless using something like a Carver any instantaneous demands were taken care of by the power supply and capacitor banks.

[Mr Peabody]

Power regeneration.... another kettle of fish. That's why the Furman would cost so much. From what i understand to keep power at a constant the unit is basically an amplifier itself. And, from what I understand those who design our audio gear keep power constant at the test bench.

[E-Stat]

Many people change their power cords to achieve lower noise figure-such as you said-RFI filter networks and shielding, but forget about biggest noise source-the PC itself. So if you are serious about combating noise, start with PC that address its own emission to its surrounding.
When the net result is a quieter background, I find that to be a successful approach.


Speculation are easy, but it does not change the fact that shielding at lower frequency are not too effective.
It remains true that if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his a$$ either. Is there some relevance to your observation?


But for what purpose? It does not say anything about combating noise.
I find it amusing that now your speculation relies upon reading a part of the cable's marketing! :) Hint: read their entire description which talks about reducing noise. In addition to lowering the noise floor, the larger and more expensive Power AC+ also addresses the current needs of high powered components.

rw

[poppachubby]

Speaking of DIY IC's...are you still going to try and make the Analysis Plus cables?

frenchmon

Oh yes, for sure Frenchy! It will probably be a couple of months until I get to your cord. I must first cut my teeth on a couple of sets and then your set will be my first big challenge.

[Feanor]

Has anybody ever used external replacement power cords for their gear? If so what where the reults? All of my gear goes through a power conditioner so would it make and sense to get better external power cords?

frenchmon
Same old message from me. I go from basic to a lower-mid priced option; if that works I might try a upper-mid, or even high end option. If it doesn't, I stop there.

Hence I tried -- a still use -- the likes of Belden shielded cable with Magico connectors and PS Audio low-end shielded cable. On all cables I use ferrite traps also. I haven't identified any difference with these low to low-mid options so I'm stopping there.

On the other hand folks like Mr Peabody sometime advise that you have to go higher to get any real improvement. Maybe so, but I might never find out. In general I can spend the money better than on >$300 cables, e.g. on music.

[E-Stat]

Hence I tried -- a still use -- the likes of Belden shielded cable with Magico connectors ...
Just curious. Which Belden and using which source?

rw

[frenchmon]

Oh yes, for sure Frenchy! It will probably be a couple of months until I get to your cord. I must first cut my teeth on a couple of sets and then your set will be my first big challenge.

Sounds good.

frencmon

[Feanor]

Just curious. Which Belden and using which source?

rw
'Stat, I used the Belden 83803 as in the reference you supplied. I hate it; the cable is extremely stiff.

What do you mean by source? I have fed directly from the wall to various digital music sources; I have also fed from my Belkin PureAV PF60 surge/filter device.

[Smokey]

Is there some relevance to your observation?

That was just FYI in case somebody ask :D


I find it amusing that now your speculation relies upon reading a part of the cable's marketing! :) Hint: read their entire description which talks about reducing noise.

I don't know STAT but uopn reading further, it said their 'Optimized Field Matrix' (OFM) design uses two 10 AWG conductors. I thought you said they use multiple sets of conductors in their power A+ model.

But either way, DIY from star quad cable is not that hard and looking at some of PC prices from JPS Labs, alot cheaper :)

[E-Stat]

I don't know STAT but uopn reading further, it said their 'Optimized Field Matrix' (OFM) design uses two 10 AWG conductors. I thought you said they use multiple sets of conductors in their power A+ model.
Looks like we're both wrong. :) It uses 8 gauge wire. The reason I thought there were two pair is because there are clearly two fat wires that are wound around each other. I assumed they combined two sets of conductors like star quad, but the wording does suggest each section is a single massive 8 gauge conductor.

Power AC+ (http://jpslabs.com/actheory.shtml)


But either way, DIY from star quad cable is not that hard and looking at some of PC prices from JPS Labs, a lot cheaper :)
Cheaper no doubt!

rw

[E-Stat]

'Stat, I used the Belden 83803 as in the reference you supplied. I hate it; the cable is extremely stiff.
Try using Harmonic Technology Magic. It completely holds a shape by itself!


What do you mean by source? I have fed directly from the wall to various digital music sources; I have also fed from my Belkin PureAV PF60 surge/filter device.
Just that. The application or device used with it.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

I checked Transparent's website http://www.transparentcable.com/products/category_intro.php?catID=5&modCAT=1 just curious if they show what's inside their cords. They don't show or tell much. The cords I have are probably the entry level, no networks. The MIT, Z cord I have has networks. I use it on my Linn amp, it made a nice improvement.

[squidboyw]

Anyway, it is not so much dirty power that some conditioners work to clean, it is the consistency of the power. The technical term is Power Factor. Furman unit address this.



I'm not an EE but I thought unless using something like a Carver any instantaneous demands were taken care of by the power supply and capacitor banks.

Power factor is not the same as amps and volts.

POWER FACTOR

In AC systems, voltage and current go from positive to zero to negative generally 60 times a second (60 cycles or 60 Hz). If voltage and current are "high" or "low" at the same time, then they are said to be "in phase." A common term to describe the time relationship between voltage and current is called "power factor." When voltage and current are "in phase," the power factor is generally 1 (surprising, this is not always the case ). When the current peak follows the voltage peak, this is called " lagging power factor," when current leads voltage, this is called "leading power factor." When voltage and current are exactly opposite ( when voltage is at a peak and current is zero,or vice versa), the power factor is 0.

"REAL" POWER

Utilities charge us for "real power" i.e. how much work must actually be done by a generator (no matter how it is driven, by a steam turbine, internal combustion engine, dam, wind, etc). To find "real power," you multiply volts time amps times power factor. The power factor is determined by the load, that is, the device using the power. A light bulb produces light by simply heating up a thin metal filament and is called a resistive load (other examples are heaters, toasters, etc). Resistive loads have a power factor of 1, and are the only loads where you can find real power by simply multiplying voltage times current.

A common induction motor, such as those found in washers, freezers, refrigerators and air conditioners, work by storing some of the electricity it uses in a magnetic field. This storage causes the voltage and current to be high at different times, and the resulting real power usage can be a small fraction of voltage times current; this fraction increases as the motor is loaded. For example, an air compressor at start up with an empty tank may consume only 1000 watts, but would over 2000 watts when near shut off pressure. If you measured the current going to the compressor motor as it is loading, it only goes up a little bit, not by a factor of 2! The reason is that the power factor of the motor is changing as the motor is loaded.

Would a better supply have less of an affect from a Furman? No just the opposite!

Think of the power line as a hose when the line becomes inductive think of some one gripping a hose restricting flow now think someone applying more pressure to restore that flow, This is what the Furman does!

Now take the end of the hose this is the power supply of your amp if it is a straw end you can't expect much out of it! But if it is the size of a fire hose and if the pressure is there your going to have flow with volume.

Simply put in an amplifiers perspective! Energy Transfer is the name of the game!

[mlsstl]

Interesting explanation, but the circuits of all of our electronic gear actually run on DC. The only exceptions might be turntable or tape deck motors and even many of those are also DC.

As an electronics hobbyist of some 40+ years, I've got a basement full of test equipment that I still get out and use from time to time. You'd think that you'd see any problems with the supply of available current from the wall reflected in the DC rails of the device in question, but that is not something I've bumped into except under very unusual circumstances.

I suspect the extra suppression of EMI (both received and radiated) is likely a bigger factor in those cases where people perceive a sonic difference between power cords. Of course, there are some cheap power cables supplied with some gear that are inadequate for the job at hand, but those are pretty rare in my experience once you're past the mid-fi equipment.

[Happy Camper]

I have experimented with a few cables. Hospital grade .3m and 2m, standard commercial grade, VD Power 1 and a conditioner strip & isolation transformer..

As mentioned, the noise floor dropped noticeably when I went to the VD in both the amp and DAC directly out of the receptacle. An added benefit of the amp was a more dynamically lively amp. The DAC also portrayed the notes with more detail and longer decay.

I have been able to get the same performance of my DAC with an isolation transformer and the .3m hospital grade. I have two circuits on my iso tranny and I use one side for just my DAC and the other on my PC.

I have kept the VD 1 on my amp directly from the wall and won't go back to a standard power cord again for my amps. Listening on headphones really focuses on changes in the sound.

This link has some good reading on power line noise. Actually, a good read throughout for a sales pitch.. http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=17

[Glen B]

Interesting explanation, but the circuits of all of our electronic gear actually run on DC. The only exceptions might be turntable or tape deck motors and even many of those are also DC.

As an electronics hobbyist of some 40+ years, I've got a basement full of test equipment that I still get out and use from time to time. You'd think that you'd see any problems with the supply of available current from the wall reflected in the DC rails of the device in question, but that is not something I've bumped into except under very unusual circumstances.

I suspect the extra suppression of EMI (both received and radiated) is likely a bigger factor in those cases where people perceive a sonic difference between power cords. Of course, there are some cheap power cables supplied with some gear that are inadequate for the job at hand, but those are pretty rare in my experience once you're past the mid-fi equipment.

Here's some interesting reading. The author is a professor of EE and audio enthusiast:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71333

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71382

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71545

Posts by Ralph Karsten (Atmasphere), designer and owner of high end manufacturer Atma-Sphere Music Systems, on how power cords can make a difference:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1249822202&openflup&36&4#36

[mlsstl]

Thanks for the links. It pretty much confirms what I noted before. The power cord should be appropriate for the job at hand. It needs to be of adequate size for the piece of equipment and also include quality connectors at each end. Plus, some setups may benefit from shielding or other EMI abatement techniques. None of that requires an abnormal level of magic - all of those characteristics are pretty well understood by electrical engineers.

One additional comment - the power cord is not the only place where EMI control strategies can be employed.

There are two reasons that different people may experience different results with power cables. The first reason would be that not everyone's power at their home is necessarily contaminated to the same degree. Second, the power cable is not the only place noise can be eliminated. Designers vary in how much attention they pay to their power supply and that, in combination with the differing quality of power at the wall socket, could easily explain why some people hear a difference with a particular power cord and others don't.

And all of that is before we even get to the psychological subjectivities! ;-)