Hi-Fi: A Beginner's Guide

[Ajani]

Given my recent experimentation with some affordable gear, I felt it was time to start a thread where we can all share our ideas, of how someone new to this hobby could get into the game (without taking out a mortgage for his first purchase).

These are my suggestions for great ways to start the audiophile journey:

Step One (Budget up to $100) - Upgrade the headphones on your iPod/cellphone/computer. You'd be amazed how effective this can be at increasing sound quality, while requiring very little outlay of cash. I've heard a lot of good things about the $50 iGrado's....

Step Two (Budget $100 - $1000) - Assuming, you don't decide to stick with Headphones and leave speakers to some other sucker, then toss the nasty little dell speakers that came with your desktop and purchase a nice pair of Active Nearfield Monitors. M-Audio and Audio Engine come to mind. You can also consider, getting a cheap DAC, like a Musical Fidelity V-DAC to combine with the speakers for optimum performance or get an active with built in DAC (a popular option in the Pro Audio Scene).

Step Three (Budget Greater than $1K) - Even though Active Speakers would still give you arguably better value for money, you may want to consider flexibility and upgradability. So I'd suggest breaking free of your desktop with Passive Monitors, an Integrated Amp and a Squeezebox, AppleTV, WDTV, PS3 etc...

So if you were starting out, what kind of components would you select?

[harley .guy07]

Well in my opinion it depends on what direction you plan to go. If music only is your direction which for most of us on this forum seems to be the most important part and the theater thing is a secondary thing I would suggest that to start find out what your realistic budget will be. There is no sense in looking at 3000 dollar speakers if your whole system budget is 2000 bucks. find out what your budget is then you can start to figure out how you can allocate it to get the best for your money. receivers are fine to start out with as long as you stay away from the cheaper stuff since they really scrimpt on the amplification and you will not see the best from your speakers. Another thing is think Used. Used equipment allows you to afford a hell of a lot better system for your set dollars and with so many outlets on the net for used gear you should have no problems finding stuff that will fill the bill. Another thing that a lot of people miss is to study the room that you are going to be running this equipment in to find out what type of speakers and how much power you will need in said room to get the results you want. brand loyalty is ok but I would keep myself open to what is out there and do your research and listen to everything to figure out what you like and what you don't. now picking out what speakers you will use is more up to your personal tastes and thoughts about what kind of sound you want. To start with if accuracy is the upmost importance if a person is starting out I would say a stand mount speaker design will almost allways give you more accurate response for the money when you are talking about a starting budget and if the budget allows seperate components are always preffered but not necessary. but when planning said system never forget that cables and interconnects play a big role in overall sound as well so don't go out and blow all of your money on components and then have to go to wall mart for speaker cable and interconnects because it will rob you of a lot of what you are after in the system in the first place. And never count out getting help from someone that has allready been through all of this and use their knowledge as a helping hand in your choice of components and how to set up this system. I know you kind of wanted to talk about brands of components but I believe these things need to be thought of before brands should be concidered. In todays world there are a lot of good gear out there and some of it does not cost a fortune and will do a beginner well for a starter system.

[Jim Clark]

Sorry, I have to be contrary : ) It's just one dood's opinion in the end.

Step One: First we have to divorce ourselves from the notion that an Ipod or cell phone has anything at all to do with 'HiFi'. The very concept of MP3's works opposite the notion of High Fidelity. I'm not arguing the usefulness of MP3s, I listen to my Creative Labs Vision M when I'm mowing or not able to use my outdoor speakers. Also comes in handy in the gym. I enjoy being able to sample an album online prior to my purchase. Hifi it ain't. This is not a small matter either. Quality recorded and played back music is almost a niche product anymore. Until more people make this very basic connection, HiFi will become increasingly scarce.

Step Two: Decide on a budget. We all have different means as well as different priorties. A budget is a personal decision. Make the decision that's best for you and don't get caught up trying to impress anyone but yourself. On my craigslist this morning there's a Denon 3805 for 300.00 and a Marantz 4230 for 75.00. Both would make an outstanding entry into HiFi. Speakers are the same deal. Right now there are speakers by Klipsch, Phase Tech, Def Tech, Infinity, Martin Logan. Add a cdp and you're off with a decent midfi system.

Conversely if budgetary constraints aren't an issue one could simply visit any regional hifi store (if there are any left in your area) and build your system with the guidance of that stores staff. Audio boards like Audioreview are a great place to start searching for ideas and suggestions.

Step Three: Separate fact from fiction which is very difficult to do. Cables, interconnects, isolation materials etc. can be very divisive matters. Experimentation seems to me to be the best way for a budding audiophile to come to their own conclusions. I've run into some weird situations with people making all sorts of claims but I've never been able to see them backed up in any listening tests. If someone else has a different experience, more power to them. That is in fact part of the hobby!

Regards,
jc

[blackraven]

For $1K, I could put together a very nice sounding system without a computer.

[Ajani]

I know you kind of wanted to talk about brands of components but I believe these things need to be thought of before brands should be concidered.

Actually I wasn't that interested in brands. Brands are subjective (I just listed some as examples - but each person will like and dislike various brands).

Also, I agree that someone should consider many factors such as budget, room size, etc before making a purchase.

As for used equipment, I think we also need to factor into the cost of repairs. It's one thing to buy a 3 month old amp on Audiogon for half price, cuz the owner suffers from extreme upgraditis... The item would be virtually new. It's another thing to buy a 25 year old amp on ebay... You really need to do your homework first and ensure that you can find reliable persons to service and repair the amp.

[Ajani]

Sorry, I have to be contrary : ) It's just one dood's opinion in the end.

Step One: First we have to divorce ourselves from the notion that an Ipod or cell phone has anything at all to do with 'HiFi'. The very concept of MP3's works opposite the notion of High Fidelity. I'm not arguing the usefulness of MP3s, I listen to my Creative Labs Vision M when I'm mowing or not able to use my outdoor speakers. Also comes in handy in the gym. I enjoy being able to sample an album online prior to my purchase. Hifi it ain't. This is not a small matter either. Quality recorded and played back music is almost a niche product anymore. Until more people make this very basic connection, HiFi will become increasingly scarce.

Jim, I see what you are saying but it's very different from my first point. MP3 is a format and is not the same thing as your iPod. iPod and many other MP3 players can play Lossless files (quality as good as CD). There is a reason brands like Wadia and Krell have produced iPod docks (those kind of components are not meant to be used with 'lossy' MP3 files). I've heard how good an MP3 player playing lossless files with an upgraded set of headphones can sound, which is why I recommend it as a cheap first step...


Step Two: Decide on a budget. We all have different means as well as different priorties. A budget is a personal decision. Make the decision that's best for you and don't get caught up trying to impress anyone but yourself. On my craigslist this morning there's a Denon 3805 for 300.00 and a Marantz 4230 for 75.00. Both would make an outstanding entry into HiFi. Speakers are the same deal. Right now there are speakers by Klipsch, Phase Tech, Def Tech, Infinity, Martin Logan. Add a cdp and you're off with a decent midfi system.

Conversely if budgetary constraints aren't an issue one could simply visit any regional hifi store (if there are any left in your area) and build your system with the guidance of that stores staff. Audio boards like Audioreview are a great place to start searching for ideas and suggestions.

Step Three: Separate fact from fiction which is very difficult to do. Cables, interconnects, isolation materials etc. can be very divisive matters. Experimentation seems to me to be the best way for a budding audiophile to come to their own conclusions. I've run into some weird situations with people making all sorts of claims but I've never been able to see them backed up in any listening tests. If someone else has a different experience, more power to them. That is in fact part of the hobby!

Regards,
jc

Pretty much agree with the rest of your post... Though I probably wouldn't use the term 'mid-fi', as I find it to be one of those derogatory terms that keeps people away from our hobby, rather than attracting them.

The aim of my thread is to show ways to get people interested in better sound quality. The old audiophile approach of insulting most consumers' equipment and musical tastes is outdated and irrelevant. We aren't going to get new generations interested in better sound quality by telling them to ditch their iPod and JayZ tracks, and instead buy a turntable and some 60's Jazz LPs....

[Ajani]

For $1K, I could put together a very nice sounding system without a computer.

I'm sure you could. So what components would you use?

[blackraven]

I would use an HK 3390 or 3490 receiver or a CA or NAD integrated amp. http://thecamerabox.com/product.asp?id=hkv3390&gclid=COrZxNXdkp4CFQ4MDQoduVsaqQ http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=554381&is=REG&A=details&Q= Marantz 5003 or Oppo 980 http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARCD5003/Marantz/Cd5003-Single-Disc-Cd-Player/1.html

That would leave about $400-500 for a pair of PSB B-25's http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBIMB25 , B-15's, Monitor Audio BR's, NHT Classic 2's. Or a pair of PSB Alpha B's and an Energy ESW 8 sub.

Blujeans cable IC's and unterminated speaker wire.

[JoeE SP9]

For that same $1000 I have equipped several friends with:
Adcom GTP-450
Adcom GFA-535
Magnepan MMG
powered subwoofer
All of the above were purchased used.
just about any inexpensive DVD player
Even with some decent but inexpensive IC's and speaker cables the total is less than $1000

The above sounds better than just about any receiver based system. The only part that really needs upgrading is the DVD player. Also, everything but the "cheap" DVD player can be sold for little or no loss.

[Ajani]

Very Interesting responses:

BR would use essentially a traditional 40/30/25/5 split for speakers/amp/CD/cables.

JoeE would go used and basically rock a source last approach, with a cheap DVD player combined with highly rated pre/amp and speakers...

I've actually tried both approaches. I preferred JoeE's approach (though that may just be based on the particular brands I used at the time), but either method can give very nice results...

[blackraven]

Ideally, Ajani, I would try to put as much of the budget into the speakers as possible. I would include the B&W 686's in that speaker group and this integrated amp by CA http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA340A and this Onkyo receiver http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=tx-8555&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=8341023320426427295&ei=7xoDS8mkA9X5nAe179Rh&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers But I think the HK receivers offer the most bang for the buck.. Nice warmer sound, high current power supplies with bass management and preamp out. I prefer new to used.

[Jim Clark]

Jim, I see what you are saying but it's very different from my first point. MP3 is a format and is not the same thing as your iPod. iPod and many other MP3 players can play Lossless files (quality as good as CD). There is a reason brands like Wadia and Krell have produced iPod docks (those kind of components are not meant to be used with 'lossy' MP3 files). I've heard how good an MP3 player playing lossless files with an upgraded set of headphones can sound, which is why I recommend it as a cheap first step...



I am well versed in ape, flac, shorten etc. I'm also well aware that over 99% of the content on cell phones and Ipods and other portable players is MP3 and not lossless codecs. Sure some of them can play lossless codecs but you and I both know that they are not actually filled with that content. And good luck finding a cell phone that can play flac (or a portable player of any kind for that matter).

Honestly I'm not trying to be antagonistic but you and I both know that the Ipod and cell phone were not created to offer hifi music playback to the masses. That they are ubiquitous speaks more to the rationale of a Krell or Wadia than quality music playback. Simply said, if you can't beat them...

At any rate, few posts give me any reason to post anymore so it was nice to see a thread that held my interest. Nice work.

Regards,
jc

[Ajani]

I am well versed in ape, flac, shorten etc. I'm also well aware that over 99% of the content on cell phones and Ipods and other portable players is MP3 and not lossless codecs. Sure some of them can play lossless codecs but you and I both know that they are not actually filled with that content. And good luck finding a cell phone that can play flac (or a portable player of any kind for that matter).

Honestly I'm not trying to be antagonistic but you and I both know that the Ipod and cell phone were not created to offer hifi music playback to the masses. That they are ubiquitous speaks more to the rationale of a Krell or Wadia than quality music playback. Simply said, if you can't beat them...

You are correct. MP3s and MP3 players were invented for convenience, with a 'quality be damned' attitude...

The thing is that my view of these formats has tended to be the opposite of the traditional audiophile view: "MP3 is the death of our hobby".... I've always seen lossy formats as an initial step in an audio revolution...

MP3 was designed primarily as a way of making audio files smaller... To cut down a standard WAV file to a tenth of its size, so music could be easily downloaded and stored.... However, the need for such small file sizes (and the corresponding cut in quality) is almost completely gone... We now have broadband internet instead of 14.4K... and Hard Drives containing terabytes of data, instead of megabytes...

So I always thought MP3 was just the first step... and I trusted and still trust corporate greed to drive an increase in quality.... It's why I was not surprised when Apple changed their AAC store from 128K DRM files to 256K DRM Free.... while of course charging a nice chunk of change to allow users to upgrade all their existing purchases to the higher quality formats... It's why I expect Apple to repeat the same "pay to upgrade" process in a few years for Apple Lossless files on iTunes.... and eventually to offer High Resolution (SACD/DVDA/Blueray) quality audio files at premium prices...



At any rate, few posts give me any reason to post anymore so it was nice to see a thread that held my interest. Nice work.

Regards,
jc

Thanks... Sadly, I know what you mean all too well... it's part of the problem with being part of a forum like this for too long... after awhile you've read/participated in so many of the 'same old topics' that you hardly bother to post... I've actually lost my Username twice on this site, because I was inactive for extremely long periods....

[poppachubby]

Well I want to chime in and say thanks to Ajani and Jim Clark for posting and sharing with guys like me. Just try to remember what it's like for the newbie poster, we appreciate your experienced feedback and knowledge. Quite frankly, it's why we're here, to pick the brains of guys such as yourself.

[Ajani]

Ideally, Ajani, I would try to put as much of the budget into the speakers as possible. I would include the B&W 686's in that speaker group and this integrated amp by CA http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA340A and this Onkyo receiver http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=tx-8555&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=8341023320426427295&ei=7xoDS8mkA9X5nAe179Rh&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBgQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers But I think the HK receivers offer the most bang for the buck.. Nice warmer sound, high current power supplies with bass management and preamp out.

I've never tried one of Harman's Stereo Receivers but I'm very very very interested in their new Integrated Amp:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=32298


I prefer new to used.

Me too... I've never bought used... I know there are many great deals on Audiogon or Canuck Audio Mart (back when I was in Toronto) but I still feel uncomfortable about purchasing expensive gear secondhand (no warranty, no real assurance that the previous buyer treated the equipment properly)...

[Ajani]

Well I want to chime in and say thanks to Ajani and Jim Clark for posting and sharing with guys like me. Just try to remember what it's like for the newbie poster, we appreciate your experienced feedback and knowledge. Quite frankly, it's why we're here, to pick the brains of guys such as yourself.

That's how most of us on this site started... I learned from asking questions, making stupid posts and being schooled about audio by other members of this site... I can still remember several year ago, when Mr. Peabody disillusioned me of my belief that diminishing returns on CD Players started at about $300.... :blush2:

Anyway, I'm just glad I can help...

[blackraven]

Wow Ajani! That HK integrated looks like a beast. The spec's look fantastic and the build looks great. It looks like the real deal if it can pump out 150wpc at 8ohms and double it at 4ohms. I wonder how much it cost? I can't seem to find a price in US dollars.

[Feanor]

Given my recent experimentation with some affordable gear, I felt it was time to start a thread where we can all share our ideas, of how someone new to this hobby could get into the game (without taking out a mortgage for his first purchase).
...
Severely butt-kicking $5000 stereo system. Is this really Step 4?

Speakers ... Magneplanar MG 1.6QR (http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_16), $1900: unbeatable at this price or much more ...

http://www.magnepan.com/content/binary/speakers/MG16_01.jpg

Integrated amplfier ... Cambridge Azur 840A (V.2) (http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=292&Title=Azur+840A+%28Version+2%29+Class+XD+amplifier ), $1700: just can't beat integrateds for value ...

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/media/20081014_111612_840aV2.jpg

Silver disc player ... OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Player (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/), $500 (or splurge on the SE version, $900) ...

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/images/Blu-ray-BDP-83_home.gif

DAC ... Music Hall - DAC 25.2 (http://www.musichallaudio.com/detail.php?p=68), $600; might want to upgrade the 6922 vacuum tube and opamps for about $200 additional ...

http://www.musichallaudio.com/product_images/dac_252/musichall_DAC_25_2_lg.jpg

Interconnects & speaker cables ... Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/), <$300.

Analog kit ... WHY??

[Ajani]

Severely butt-kicking $5000 stereo system. Is this really Step 4?

Speakers ... Magneplanar MG 1.6QR (http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_16), $1900: unbeatable at this price or much more ...


Integrated amplfier ... Cambridge Azur 840A (V.2) (http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/summary.php?PID=292&Title=Azur+840A+%28Version+2%29+Class+XD+amplifier ), $1700: just can't beat integrateds for value ...


Silver disc player ... OPPO BDP-83 Blu-ray Player (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/), $500 (or splurge on the SE version, $900) ...


DAC ... Music Hall - DAC 25.2 (http://www.musichallaudio.com/detail.php?p=68), $600; might want to upgrade the 6922 vacuum tube and opamps for about $200 additional ...


Interconnects & speaker cables ... Blue Jeans Cable (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/), <$300.

Analog kit ... WHY??

Hmmm.... not sure I'd add the Musichall DAC, nothing I've seen in its reviews suggest it would be an improvement over the Oppo Blu-ray Player...

Interesting choices (all good components, except maybe the Musichall)....

I never went for step 4 though, cuz I think it's pretty easy to put together a great system once you have that kind of budget...

[Feanor]

Hmmm.... not sure I'd add the Musichall DAC, nothing I've seen in its reviews suggest it would be an improvement over the Oppo Blu-ray Player...

Interesting choices (all good components, except maybe the Musichall)....

I never went for step 4 though, cuz I think it's pretty easy to put together a great system once you have that kind of budget...

In fact the digital components are the trickiest. So ...

Say you're only going to play discs, (no computer files), and want SACD as well as CD. Fine: skip the DAC and go for a Marantz SA8003 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MASA8003), $1000 ...

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/MASA8003_2.jpg

Or say you don't care about SACD but do sometimes play computer files: Cambridge 740C (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA740C) with digital inputs, $1100 ...

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/CA740C.jpg

Or say you only listen to computer files, skip the disc player and spend a bit more on the DAC. Either the Benchmark DAC-1 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BEDAC1), $1000 ...

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/BENCDAC1_000.jpg

Or the PS Audio Digital Link III (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PSDL3), $700 -- could be the real bargin here if you don't play discs (!!) or if you combine with a cheaper CDP as a player ...

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/PSADL3_000.JPG

[Luvin Da Blues]

Hmmm.... not sure I'd add the Musichall DAC, nothing I've seen in its reviews suggest it would be an improvement over the Oppo Blu-ray Player...

Interesting choices (all good components, except maybe the Musichall).....

Have you even heard one???? Or do you buy from reviews only. Now if you went to the SE version maybe.

Let's see, a $500 CDP c/w DAC vs. a $600 standalone DAC. Hmmmm

[frenchmon]

Hmmm.... not sure I'd add the Musichall DAC, nothing I've seen in its reviews suggest it would be an improvement over the Oppo Blu-ray Player...

Interesting choices (all good components, except maybe the Musichall)....

I never went for step 4 though, cuz I think it's pretty easy to put together a great system once you have that kind of budget...

I seen some pretty good review after they did a little tube rolling.

frenchmon

[Ajani]

Have you even heard one???? Or do you buy from reviews only. Now if you went to the SE version maybe.

Let's see, a $500 CDP c/w DAC vs. a $600 standalone DAC. Hmmmm

I can't debate the sonic merits of the Musichall... as I said: nothing in the reviews I've seen seem to be that positive... Stereophile rates both the CA DACmagic and MF V-DAC higher than the Musichall (which is the most expensive of the lot)...

But all that is irrelevant if you think it's a good DAC... As I've said, my opinion on it is based only on reviews (Stereophile and I think Nightflier/another forum member, bought one and sent it back cuz he thought it was no better than the cheapo CD player he was trying to upgrade)... but I've never heard one, so who knows? And even if I hear one and think it sounds terrible, that has no effect on you enjoying yours...

[Ajani]

In fact the digital components are the trickiest. So ...

Say you're only going to play discs, (no computer files), and want SACD as well as CD. Fine: skip the DAC and go for a Marantz SA8003 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MASA8003), $1000 ...


Or say you don't care about SACD but do sometimes play computer files: Cambridge 740C (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA740C) with digital inputs, $1100 ...


Or say you only listen to computer files, skip the disc player and spend a bit more on the DAC. Either the Benchmark DAC-1 (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BEDAC1), $1000 ...


Or the PS Audio Digital Link III (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PSDL3), $700 -- could be the real bargin here if you don't play discs (!!) or if you combine with a cheaper CDP as a player ...



Yep, lots of great options if you really want to spend around a grand on a digital source...

[frenchmon]

IStereophile rates both the CA DACmagic and MF V-DAC higher than the Musichall (which is the most expensive of the lot)...



Wow! I had the DACmagic for a good 3 weeks and sent it back because it really was no better than my 10 year old Rotel RCC 1055 CDP....go figure. I guess the V-DAC wins by default.
frenchmon

[Ajani]

Wow! I had the DACmagic for a good 3 weeks and sent it back because it really was no better than my 10 year old Rotel RCC 1055 CDP....go figure. I guess the V-DAC wins by default.
frenchmon

LOL... kind of unfair to compare a DAC that costs about half the price of the very good (for the price) CD player that you had..... but truth is that I've never been someone to recommend A DAC that costs the same price or less than the CD player you want to upgrade...

(Actually, I generally only recommend DACs to people who want to get into computer/music server audio)...

[ren9328]

As a young and fairly new member of the audiophile community I appreciate being able to add my opinions. About a year ago I went out on a limb and purchased Dynaudio Contour 1.3 MkI speakers on ebay for $610.00 (because the seller couldn't take a decent picture). Those things were mint! I ran them with a Yamaha RX-V1300 A/V receiver until I could upgrade.

For someone looking to get into a true hi-fi system the used market is the way to go! I currently own a Krell KAV 300iL ($1075.00 Audiogon), Dynaudio Contour 1.3SEs ($850.00 ebay), Pioneer BDP-51FD ($150.00 NIB ebay), Technics Direct Drive turntable (free), all cables are ZU Audio, Julian speaker and Oxyfuel interconnects (ebay). My total expenditure is about $2300.00 for an absolutely stunning system, for one that would have cost over $7800.00 at retail. As a bonus most of the equipment is nearly new except for the Technics turntable.

My recommendation is to invest first and foremost in top of the line loudspeakers! These will make or break the system. Dynaudio, among others, make world class loudspeakers from which to choose but the best bet is to buy them used or the cost can be exorbitant. I have tried many, many different integrateds (some seperates, Bryston and Proceed) and found the best value in high quality integrated amplifiers. It all comes down to price/performance. We all have our own idea of great sound, I have found mine (for now).

You will really have to experience upscale yourself. Nobody will ever be able to truly describe the difference to you. Mid-Fi (not being deragatory) is not the same but an apt moniker nonetheless. For example an NAD C320BEE along with B&W 600 series sounds very good BUT IMO are not comparable to the Dyn. 1.3 SE and Krell combination by any stretch of the imagination. All of the crazy sounding audiophile descriptions apply and most definitely. Massively deep bass from a minimonitor?, Yes. 3D imaging? Yes. Soundstage width and depth? Yes. When you see what 2K can do you will be fully impressed!:yikes:

Cheers,

Earl

[frenchmon]

As a young and fairly new member of the audiophile community I appreciate being able to add my opinions.

Please do.


About a year ago I went out on a limb and purchased Dynaudio Contour 1.3 MkI speakers on ebay for $610.00 (because the seller couldn't take a decent picture). Those things were mint! I ran them with a Yamaha RX-V1300 A/V receiver until I could upgrade.
For someone looking to get into a true hi-fi system the used market is the way to go! I currently own a Krell KAV 300iL ($1075.00 Audiogon), Dynaudio Contour 1.3SEs ($850.00 ebay), Pioneer BDP-51FD ($150.00 NIB ebay), Technics Direct Drive turntable (free), all cables are ZU Audio, Julian speaker and Oxyfuel interconnects (ebay). My total expenditure is about $2300.00 for an absolutely stunning system, for one that would have cost over $7800.00 at retail. As a bonus most of the equipment is nearly new except for the Technics turntable.

I think you got a great deal...congrats!


My recommendation is to invest first and foremost in top of the line loudspeakers! These will make or break the system. Dynaudio, among others, make world class loudspeakers from which to choose but the best bet is to buy them used or the cost can be exorbitant.

I think for some of us, looking for and then making a purchase of good gear at below the cost of new is part of the fun of this hobby. But some audio hobbyist only buy new and still enjoy it just as much. Nothing wrong with that.


I have tried many, many different integrateds (some seperates, Bryston and Proceed) and found the best value in high quality integrated amplifiers. It all comes down to price/performance. We all have our own idea of great sound, I have found mine (for now).

For now, I too am really enjoyinig my system. After all, that's what this hobby is all about....does the music your system produces get in and touch your soul....make you emotional from what you hear? Me myself I love passionate music for the most part. And I can get it from listening to Billy Holiday sing "Strange Fruit" or "Don't Explain" from Yo Yo Ma doing his thing on "The Mission", The Allman Brothers Band Live at the Fillmore East or even some New Age from Dave Lanz on "Return To The Heart" or Michael Jones on "Piano Scapes" I love good music so that's why I try to get the best gear my pocket can handle....that's why im down in my basement hours at a time.


You will really have to experience upscale yourself. Nobody will ever be able to truly describe the difference to you. Mid-Fi (not being deragatory) is not the same but an apt moniker nonetheless. For example an NAD C320BEE along with B&W 600 series sounds very good BUT IMO are not comparable to the Dyn. 1.3 SE and Krell combination by any stretch of the imagination.

And Im so glad you started your posting with your opinion....but you had to go there did'nt you! Some people will disagree with you. And im sure there are some systems that are not "up scale" as you say that may be able to rival some of the krells and Dynaudios at what they can do. Now dont get me wrong, I think Krell and Dyns are some great gear. Especially the dynaudios. I have a good buddy who has both and I love his system. The dyns to my ears where very neutral while being beautiful at the same time. And I did go to a local audio shop and listen to the Dyns...the Focus 140's. Wonderful speaker, but I did'nt want to shell out $1500 for book shelves. But you know what, I got some Canton book shelves with very close stats to the 140's at less than half the cost and they sound just as good as the 140's. Its being driven by a Rotel outfit...amp @ 200 watts and a preamp and what it does is makes me move and get into the music with out gazing at the gear and thinking I have the baddest and loudest system of anybody at a great price. Though I did get an unbelievable price on the Rotel


All of the crazy sounding audiophile descriptions apply and most definitely. Massively deep bass from a minimonitor?, Yes. 3D imaging? Yes. Soundstage width and depth? Yes. When you see what 2K can do you will be fully impressed!:yikes:

Shoot....I get all that from my not so "upscale system". And on top of that...it moves me with emotion with beautiful and passionate sound. Can your system do that Earl? For some of us, Its not about who has the baddest and loudest...its about what it makes music do for you in your soul.

frenchmon

[Ajani]

As a young and fairly new member of the audiophile community I appreciate being able to add my opinions.

Firstly, Welcome to the Forums!!! It's always good to hear from new members..


For someone looking to get into a true hi-fi system the used market is the way to go!

The used market is a great place to get expensive gear (sometimes even new in box) for half price or less... Though it has its own risks and so not everyone is willing to buy used...


My recommendation is to invest first and foremost in top of the line loudspeakers! These will make or break the system.

I agree, as that has been my experience... However, other Audiophiles feel that source, amplification or even (god forbid) cables are the best place to start... So you really need to test out various combos for yourself, to see what works best for you...


You will really have to experience upscale yourself. Nobody will ever be able to truly describe the difference to you. Mid-Fi (not being deragatory) is not the same but an apt moniker nonetheless. For example an NAD C320BEE along with B&W 600 series sounds very good BUT IMO are not comparable to the Dyn. 1.3 SE and Krell combination by any stretch of the imagination.

Unfortunately, that is an Apples to Oranges comparison... Switching brands will result in a different (not necessarily better) sound... So even a price comparable setup such as NAD M3 + B&W CM9 will sound very different from a Krell S300i + Dynaudio Focus 220...

A real comparison of 'high end' versus budget gear would be the NAD/B&W combo you mentioned versus the M3/CM9 combo in my example... And whether the upgrade is worth it would really depend on each individual listener...

[frenchmon]

Ajani...I can tell you are a very astute man when it comes to audio.

frenchmon

[Ajani]

And Im so glad you started your posting with your opinion....but you had to go there did'nt you! Some people will disagree with you. And im sure there are some systems that are not "up scale" as you say that may be able to rival some of the krells and Dynaudios at what they can do. Now dont get me wrong, I think Krell and Dyns are some great gear. Especially the dynaudios. I have a good buddy who has both and I love his system. The dyns to my ears where very neutral while being beautiful at the same time. And I did go to a local audio shop and listen to the Dyns...the Focus 140's. Wonderful speaker, but I did'nt want to shell out $1500 for book shelves. But you know what, I got some Canton book shelves with very close stats to the 140's at more than half the cost and they sound just as good as the 140's. Its being driven by a Rotel outfit...amp @ 200 watts and a preamp and what it does is makes me move and get into the music with out gazing at the gear and thinking I have the baddest and loudest system of anybody at a great price. Though I did get an unbelievable price on the Rotel

As, you no doubt realize, Brand preference is unique to the individual... I remember carrying a friend to a HiFi store to buy his first pair of quality speakers, and auditioning the Dynaudio Focus 140... Neither of us was particularly impressed and even the sales guy didn't seem all that interested in trying to push the Dyns... However we all loved the B&W CM1s at just about half the price of the Dyns... And my friend left the store with the CM1s (despite the fact that he was really looking to buy more expensive speakers - in the Focus 140 price range)...

Now my point is not to claim that B&W is better than Dynaudio... that would be a stupid claim as this is all a matter of listening preference...


Shoot....I get all that from my not so "upscale system". And on top of that...it moves me with emotion with beautiful and passionate sound. Can your system do that Earl? For some of us, Its not about who has the baddest and loudest...its about what it makes music do for you in your soul.

frenchmon

True... Audio Nirvana can be found for many persons, without getting into 'upscale systems'... Each person has to determine at what point, another upgrade is no longer worth it or necessary to achieve their sonic goals...

[ren9328]

Ajani and Frenchmon you are both very astute!

Sound quality is a very subjective topic. We do all have our own opinions of what sounds great and captivates us. I realized some time ago that I could not use my system as background music while doing homework because it would draw me in and make me listen.

For someone on a tight budget (like myself) used is a great way to fly, though if I had the funds I would have no qualms buying new.

I do have a lot of fun when I have guests over here though. Most all of my friends are, like myself, college students. Almost none of them have ever experienced a high performance two channel audio system. There has been many an expletive uttered, looks of bewilderment, and looks of astonishment from nearly all who have listened. The shock comes from seeing what is seemingly an unassuming system with small speakers and a small amplifer and then hearing what it is capable of.:biggrin5: I would bet that most of you have done this at one time or another and what a lot of fun it is.

I have been haunting numerous forums as of late and some of the product bashing that goes on is pure nonsense. I have heard some equipment that I personally didn't like at all but I will never badmouth it. I wonder how many individuals have been persuaded out of buying a product that in their system may have been magical? I damn near didn't buy my Krell due to the bashing. I was really happy with the YBA YA201 integrated that I had but I knew I could try the Krell out and not lose out monetarily if I did not like it. I have not one time regretted keeping the Krell.

Thank you for the great input gentlemen.

[frenchmon]

As, you no doubt realize, Brand preference is unique to the individual... I remember carrying a friend to a HiFi store to buy his first pair of quality speakers, and auditioning the Dynaudio Focus 140... Neither of us was particularly impressed and even the sales guy didn't seem all that interested in trying to push the Dyns... However we all loved the B&W CM1s at just about half the price of the Dyns... And my friend left the store with the CM1s (despite the fact that he was really looking to buy more expensive speakers - in the Focus 140 price range)...

Now my point is not to claim that B&W is better than Dynaudio... that would be a stupid claim as this is all a matter of listening preference...



True... Audio Nirvana can be found for many persons, without getting into 'upscale systems'... Each person has to determine at what point, another upgrade is no longer worth it or necessary to achieve their sonic goals...

I heard the B&W CM1's connected to some Rotel gear....not bad at all. I agree with you... We all have a different taste in gear and sound.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Ajani and Frenchmon you are both very astute!

Sound quality is a very subjective topic. We do all have our own opinions of what sounds great and captivates us. I realized some time ago that I could not use my system as background music while doing homework because it would draw me in and make me listen.

For someone on a tight budget (like myself) used is a great way to fly, though if I had the funds I would have no qualms buying new.

I do have a lot of fun when I have guests over here though. Most all of my friends are, like myself, college students. Almost none of them have ever experienced a high performance two channel audio system. There has been many an expletive uttered, looks of bewilderment, and looks of astonishment from nearly all who have listened. The shock comes from seeing what is seemingly an unassuming system with small speakers and a small amplifer and then hearing what it is capable of.:biggrin5: I would bet that most of you have done this at one time or another and what a lot of fun it is.

I have been haunting numerous forums as of late and some of the product bashing that goes on is pure nonsense. I have heard some equipment that I personally didn't like at all but I will never badmouth it. I wonder how many individuals have been persuaded out of buying a product that in their system may have been magical? I damn near didn't buy my Krell due to the bashing. I was really happy with the YBA YA201 integrated that I had but I knew I could try the Krell out and not lose out monetarily if I did not like it. I have not one time regretted keeping the Krell.

Thank you for the great input gentlemen.

And to you as well....and welcome to the forum.

frenchmon

[RGA]

I would say the vast majority of younger people listen to non classical/Jazz music - they most likely listen to pop/rock/hip-hop/trance/alternative/metal etc. So on a budget I would recommend a system that will make that music sound good - not an MMG or their bigger brothers.

I would start with something like the Grant Fidelity Tube Dac-09 http://grantfidelity.com/site/Grant_Fidelity_Tube_DAC-09 at $300. Perhaps the biggest advantage is that it allows for future upgrades without having to dump the unit. You can buy a better preamp - and use it just as a DAC - or buy a better DAC and use it as a preamp - or upgrade the headphone amp (which is only SS) etc.

Why? Because it does most everything and it's cheap. It is a headphone amplifier, Preamp, DAC and it operates in the owner's choice of Solid State or Tube. This gives the beginner audiophile a chance to listen to tube sound and SS sound. It is also a USB DAC so user can run it from their computer. It's also very well built so it scores points on pride of ownership.

To go with this I would buy a used power amp - Arcam Delta 290P power amps often can be had for $200 and is powerful enough to drive most speakers. Rotel or Nad or Cambridge Audio would be other decent power amps for cheap used.

So now you have your source and amplification taken care of for $500. Then it is a choice of $500 speakers that will play the "typical" music the younger audiophiles would like. Floorstanding Klipsch speakers would be my first choice - many deals on the RF62 a more than decent rocker for $299 Canadian Each (less in US). For the price and for a floorstander and for the music above that;s tough to beat. With the tube stage of the Dac-09 that will offer a cleaner treble from the horns (slightly softening the blow) but the horns articulate clean attributes will be allowed to shine.

I would recommend against all standmounts in this price range - take a bit of extra box colouration for the added bass, dynamics, and impact afforded by speakers like the Klipsch. Plus no stands are needed. Cables can be added later.

$1100 gives a tube and SS dac preamp with USB dac and headphone amp - power amp, and a decent set of all rounder speakers.

[Ajani]

That's actually a really good option RGA.... I like the mix of exotic (Grant Fidelity) with easily available (Klipsch)... and you've clearly considered the kind of music younger generations listen to...

To be honest, I can't comprehend why American Audiophiles keep dissing their affordable local speakers (Klipsch, JBL and Infinity).... I've heard all three and they were quite respectable for the money...

[berzerkr]

Hello Everyone. Need advice on a hifi system. My budget is pretty good (around 3-4) but dont know much about DACs, amps, SACD etc. Mainly listen to electronic and metal but really listen to many different genres including classical music. I do not want to get ripped off and just want to learn a little more about the various equipment in a hi fi system. I also heard about turning your computer into a hi fi system which also attracts me since I have most of my music on my cpu. Any help would be great and im sure you guys dont mind helping out a learning audiophile, in the end its all about the music.

[Ajani]

Hello Everyone. Need advice on a hifi system. My budget is pretty good (around 3-4) but dont know much about DACs, amps, SACD etc. Mainly listen to electronic and metal but really listen to many different genres including classical music. I do not want to get ripped off and just want to learn a little more about the various equipment in a hi fi system. I also heard about turning your computer into a hi fi system which also attracts me since I have most of my music on my cpu. Any help would be great and im sure you guys dont mind helping out a learning audiophile, in the end its all about the music.

Assuming you mean a budget of 3K-4K (and not 300 - 400) then you have a lot of great options available... and the best advice anyone can give you is to go to your nearest hifi dealer and listen to a few combos (but DON'T buy anything yet)...

Also, I'd recommending starting a new thread for your request, that way you are likely to get more responses...

[Happy Camper]

I'd go with as much front end as I could afford and use headphones until I could get my speakers/listening room.

Used for value. Just learn what "value" means. Hearing it for yourself is the only way to decide if the investment is worth it. Find local audio clubs, meets, etc. to try gear. You can find some older gear that still compares with today's sound (amps especially).

Decide what format you want before buying anything. Vinyl still kills, tubes still sings and analog rules. Until they make a digital speaker, they still sound best with analog gear.

IMO