budget subwoofer

[cgibsong002]

for anyone who has seen my two other threads, i'm considering adding a subwoofer to my planned system. i'm putting together just a simple budget system to listen to music in my room (home and college). i'm not sure which receiver will be used. the speakers are Energy C-200's.

so i'm considering adding a subwoofer to the equation. so far what i've found to have good reviews in my price range are:
Sony SA-W2500
Polk Audio PSW10
Infinity PS28
Evidence MKII

do any of you have experience with these, or opinions on others?

as you can see, i'm putting my budget at about $200. also, in this range, would i be better off buying new or used?

thanks.

[TheHills44060]

From that list i'd go with the polk. The only other one i'd consider is the infinity but i wasn't impressed with either of the infinity subs i've owned in the past.

[LeRoy]

I bought this sub a few years ago and it's really great value for the money. The mrsp is/was about $299.00 new but if you do a thorough search you can find these new in the neighborhood of $130 - $200.

If watts are big deal to you then you might not like it cause it's only about 100 watts. I bought from Tweeters (when it was still in business) and I compared it to all the other subs in the room...from Polk, Mirage, Focal, and Martin Logan.

I thought the Velodyne was the best under $500.00 sub in the room.Of all the other subs in the room that I listened to that evening only the Martin Logan outperformed it. But that's just my opinion.

Good luck with your shopping.

[blackraven]

I would get this Energy Sub. Its a good budget sub.

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-ESW-8-Subwoofer-Single-Black/dp/tech-data/B0011ZY40A/ref=de_a_smtd

This Boston Acoustic's Sub is a good deal as well with more power at 250w RMS.

http://www.4electronicwarehouse.com/products/boston-acoustics/hps-10ho-midnight.html

[cgibsong002]

ok, if my speakers are recommended for up to 125 watts, i'd imagine i don't need a sub over 125 correct? aside from that, i guess i'll need to find out what receiver i'll be using to determine the wattage necessary.

also, do company's products tend to work better together than mixing? like would the Energy sub be a better match with my energy speakers, or does this not really make a difference/personal opinion?

[blackraven]

The recommended max power of your speakers has nothing to do with the power output of a sub. High power for a sub is a good thing. It takes a lot of power to produce good clean loud bass. All subs come with a volume control. Don't worry about the max power of your speakers. Minimum power for your speakers would be more of a concern. You can use a 200wpc receiver with speakers rated at 125wpc max. Subs have their own built in amp.

Those Energy and Polk sub's are a good deal. Especially for a small room.

[blackraven]

If you can find a good deal on a good used sub then do it!

[cgibsong002]

should i be looking for a certain driver size? obviously the larger the size the more bass usually, but do smaller drivers tend to sound better in smaller rooms? or is a larger one simply unnecessary in smaller rooms

[blackraven]

8-10" sub. I looked on audiogon and good used subs are out of your price range.

[blackraven]

should i be looking for a certain driver size? obviously the larger the size the more bass usually, but do smaller drivers tend to sound better in smaller rooms? or is a larger one simply unnecessary in smaller rooms


For a small room, all you need is an 8" sub. I would rather buy a good 8" sub than a lesser 10".

Are you doing hometheater? If not, your Energy 200's should provide decent bass for a small room. You may want to wait and see how the 200's sound before buying a sub.

[cgibsong002]

Are you doing hometheater? If not, your Energy 200's should provide decent bass for a small room. You may want to wait and see how the 200's sound before buying a sub.

its mainly music only. i'm going to try out the 200's first, but the sub is going to be a christmas list idea, so i'd like to start looking now. i'd imagine the 200's should be fine, but i'm sure they're not quite the same as a decent sub. i could be wrong.

[LeRoy]

Well, if you get a sub that's too much for the room size then your gonna have to turn down the volume on it otherwise your just gonna overwhelm the music and the room acoustics.

The Velodyne VX-10 is a 10" rear ported sub and it goes down to 25HZ as best as I can recall the spec. I found that this particular sub liked to be nearer a corner with the back of the sub about 18" from the back wall and 18"-24" from the side walls.

Just like blackraven said, an 8"-10' subwoofer should do for your intended use in a small room requirement.

As far as tuning the subwoofer to the speakers and room acoustics...try as I may to make a subwoofer disappear without pinpointing it's source of sound has been a futile experience for me...but you can certainly have lots of fun trying to find the best spot for it.

[harley .guy07]

For a small room, all you need is an 8" sub. I would rather buy a good 8" sub than a lesser 10".

Are you doing hometheater? If not, your Energy 200's should provide decent bass for a small room. You may want to wait and see how the 200's sound before buying a sub.

I agree, for most music my sub really doesn't add that much. My room is smaller and my mains really produce enough bass for anything but the lowest of bass. Now if home theater is in your thoughts that changes things since LFE tracks off of dvd and blue rays are pretty dynamic in content and might take a little more of a sub to fill the room but for music use that kind of bass is not necessary and usually just muddies things up with overlly boomy bass.

[cgibsong002]

i guess i'll really need to take a good listen to the energy's before deciding on a sub. i really can't picture a pair of speakers pounding out too much bass, but i guess that's the difference between computer speakers and quality bookshelves.

[blackraven]

CG, as Harley said, a sub should disappear seamlessly into the music and not be heard. Most people set their subs way too loud and think that the bass is fantastic. I set my sub so that I can barely hear it and then turn it down 1 more notch. Now Home Theater is a different animal and subs are made to be heard.

[cgibsong002]

CG, as Harley said, a sub should disappear seamlessly into the music and not be heard. Most people set their subs way too loud and think that the bass is fantastic. I set my sub so that I can barely hear it and then turn it down 1 more notch. Now Home Theater is a different animal and subs are made to be heard.

i think i understand what you're saying. i've never really used a quality system obviously, but i'd imagine a good subwoofer in a good system would overall just give more feel to the sound in the room. like you can't really distinctively point out the sound from it, but you can feel it and the sound isn't quite as full without it. is that kind of what you mean?

[blackraven]

Exactly!

[rob_a]

forgive me if I repeat anyone else’s posts but this is what I did with my sub. Since I’m always on a budget regardless if I need to be or not. I looked for a powered sub system with good power for the cheapest price I could find. I came across an Infinity 8" in a powered box, nothing fancy. I took the speaker that was in it out, and replaced it with a better sub. I think I paid $80 for the Infinity (used) and $90 for sub, a Dayton ref. series at partsexpress. So in the end I paid less roughly $170 for a nice sounding unit.

[JoeE SP9]

BR is right, most people have the level on their subs way too high. My subs are low enough in level that they are really not noticed most of the time. When I play a movie at high volume it can seem like my house may need some structural reinforcement. Explosions and other sound effects are sometimes scary in their intensity. I've got jump factor up the ying yang.

[audio amateur]

forgive me if I repeat anyone else’s posts but this is what I did with my sub. Since I’m always on a budget regardless if I need to be or not. I looked for a powered sub system with good power for the cheapest price I could find. I came across an Infinity 8" in a powered box, nothing fancy. I took the speaker that was in it out, and replaced it with a better sub. I think I paid $80 for the Infinity (used) and $90 for sub, a Dayton ref. series at partsexpress. So in the end I paid less roughly $170 for a nice sounding unit.
That does not always work, as drivers are entirely enclosure specific. Which means it's a toss whether you get terrible results or good ones. Ideally you would pull out the amp and make your own enclosure having entered driver specs into a program such as winISD or bassbox. I'm curious as to what you have done in that regard, did you simply swap drivers without any further consideration?

[harley .guy07]

Audio Amateur you asked the exact question as I was going to ask. I know this dayton driver pretty well and it is a vast improvement to the infinity woofer but I would ad that you could probably get even better performance building your own enclosure out of mdf of good thickness(at least 3/4 inch if not 1") and brace it well. then dampen the walls with a dampening material to keep standing waves at bay. When designing the enclosure keep in mind that you will need to have allready picked the woofer you are going to use so you will know the enclosure volume that you will need to get the best performance out of it and build the enclosure and pick a amp that will power it to the best of its abilities. One thing as well to keep in mind is that you can play around with the sub after installing the driver as far as using acousta stuff and by adding more you basically dampen the enclosure and trick the woofer into thinking its in a bigger enclosure or take some out and it will work in reverse. Play with the acoustical stuffing untill you get the bass performance that you are looking for. that would be my recommendation as that most mass market cheap subs use sub par woofers with enclosures that are not braced and have no damping in them what so ever and have underpowered amplifiers in them that probably would not last very long if asked to power a better woofer. Just my opinion.

[rob_a]

That does not always work, as drivers are entirely enclosure specific. Which means it's a toss whether you get terrible results or good ones. Ideally you would pull out the amp and make your own enclosure having entered driver specs into a program such as winISD or bassbox. I'm curious as to what you have done in that regard, did you simply swap drivers without any further consideration?

we are talking budget, not high end. Yes I could have built a new enclosure but this box was already built for the size I wanted, made out of ¾ MDF, solid bracing and acoustic sound foam included, all the work done already. To my surprise, this swop sounds very good, better then I was expecting.

[harley .guy07]

Sometimes using an allready existing design and swapping out the subwoofer can work if you luck out and find a subwoofer that has a strong amp, a well built enclosure, and the weakest link is the driver. I have seen this done before with good results its just a rarity to find and existing design that has a enclosure volume that is exactly what most aftermarket subwoofer need to sound their best. Plus if it a ported sub then you also need to look at the port size and length to make sure that the tuning is right or it will not sound right. But like I said I have on very few occasions seen all these things line up and work.

[zedicus]

Just based off your options you have listed - I purchased the Polk Audio PSW110 for $249 from BestBuy and received $50 back when it came on sale a week later. My sister has the Sony, and I bought my dad the Paradigm DSP3100 for $299.

The Sony is very sad.... It just barely fills the lower end with a sloppy mess. It's auto feature is also weak, during a movie you will hear it click on and off throughout depending on if its a dialogue scene or an action scene. You can turn this feature off, but it makes you ask why even have it? For the $80 she spent on it though, she seems to be happy. That is also taking into consideration that even $50 more was not an option in her budget.

I LOVE my PSW110. In my opinion is was worth every penny over the Sony. It's accurate most the time, but can seem a tad muddy during metal crap (Ramstein for example). Turned up it can get way to loud and will definitely rattle a house.

The Paradigm however, makes my sub look weak... I am still more than happy with my sub, but I can definitely notice an improvement with the Paradigm.

So considering my limited exposer, I would say stay away from the Sony and perhaps lean towards the Polk.

I haven't heard the others, I just know I love mine.

[cgibsong002]

So what do you guys think? should i invest in a subwoofer or is it not really worth it for music listening?

i'll also be hesitant getting the polk after you mentioned that its muddy with metal, which is what i listen to (Rammstein being one of them).

[farfromphile]

Man, things sure change with time. In '98 I bought a Polk Audio PSW-110. I'm pretty sure that's the same model name. It cost around $1000! Mind you it was 250 watts rms.
I also bought Polk audio RT-7's at the same time: $750. The sub was great and had a 10 year warranty. Prices have sure dropped since then on equivelant gear.

[02audionoob]

So what do you guys think? should i invest in a subwoofer or is it not really worth it for music listening?

I absolutely believe a sub is worthwhile in a 2-channel music system. I'd just say keep in mind previous comments here about integrating it into the music rather than letting it stand out. In my music setup, no one notices the sub...including me...until I turn it off.

[cgibsong002]

I absolutely believe a sub is worthwhile in a 2-channel music system. I'd just say keep in mind previous comments here about integrating it into the music rather than letting it stand out. In my music setup, no one notices the sub...including me...until I turn it off.

this advice sounds good to me. i'll see if i can find a decent one used or what kind of deals i can find. but if i don't happen to find anything, i'm thinking i won't be too disappointed with just the energy's.

[cgibsong002]

http://www.amazon.com/Boston-Acoustics-XB2-subwoofer-Enclosure/dp/B000KGSJF2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=aht&qid=1258823716&sr=1-5

how about this one? its a bit smaller and cheaper than that 10" one with nearly the same power output.

[blackraven]

Skip that BA, look at its freq. response. It only goes down to 45hz, not much better than your energy speakers.

I would still go for the Energy sub. Its at a great price and there's not a whole lot of risk with it. The Polk seems like a reasonable choice as well. These subs should do well as long as you use them right and don't turn them up too loud as most people do. Then they will sound muddy and boomy.

By the way CG, did you get your Energy C-200's hooked up yet and how do they sound?

[cgibsong002]

Skip that BA, look at its freq. response. It only goes down to 45hz, not much better than your energy speakers.

I would still go for the Energy sub. Its at a great price and there's not a whole lot of risk with it. The Polk seems like a reasonable choice as well. These subs should do well as long as you use them right and don't turn them up too loud as most people do. Then they will sound muddy and boomy.

By the way CG, did you get your Energy C-200's hooked up yet and how do they sound?

almost. still at college... will be home this coming week. hopefully i'll be able to try them out then.

[Nasir]

A good sub will easily outperform an average sub, especially at the lower frequency end, so try to get something worthwhile rather than any old sub. I didn´t know what I was missing until now. When using my 2 sub system ( Finalsound and Trevi subs) the lower frequencies seem to be coming from one side, but as one goes up in frequency, a more balanced and enveloping bass sound is the result. I was once a skeptic of 2 sub systems!!!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

A good sub will easily outperform an average sub, especially at the lower frequency end, so try to get something worthwhile rather than any old sub. I didn´t know what I was missing until now. When using my 2 sub system ( Finalsound and Trevi subs) the lower frequencies seem to be coming from one side, but as one goes up in frequency, a more balanced and enveloping bass sound is the result. I was once a skeptic of 2 sub systems!!!

Nasir, you might try separating the two subs by placing them in the two front corners of the room. This way they will pressurize the room from two different points rather than one. This is why your subs sounds like low frequencies are coming from one side of the room - only one side is being pressurized by the subs.

[Nasir]

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, the location of speakers and subs is more or less dictated by the furniture and the Iron Lady. My first sub ( Trevi - I think its Italian) starts after 45 -50Hz, whereas the newer sub is the Finalsound, same as the electrostatic speakers, which seems to go lower still. I have checked them separately with frequency tones...... one of them is much better than the other and was reveiling its location in a one sub system all the time, keeping in mind that the electrostatic speakers only get going above 100Hz . The only way I can have non directional bass is to use both subs.