Phono preamp tip

[JohnMichael]

Due to space limitations my phono preamp sits on my cd player. I discovered that turning the cd player off reduces a very slight irritation to the sound. I remebered this today during a long vinyl session and the sound was putting me on edge. Trying to figure what was wrong I saw the cd player was still on. Turned the cd player off and it was back to the sound I love.

Of course if you have a phono preamp on it's own shelf or it is a better built, isolated unit this may not effect the sound of your system.

[poppachubby]

Well John, how very revolutionary of you. Do you ever consider what dropping this kind of amazing, forward thinking idea can do to AR? Or the internet as a whole even?

I would build you a cabinet but shipping costs would make it laughably expensive. How do you have your stuff laid out?

I shouldn't poke fun at you (although I love to), it wasn't too long ago that Livin Da Blues caught my mess of gear in a photo and set me straight. I have been liberated from the shackles of poorly set up gear. Now, instead of listening, I can obsess over the potential sonic problems that my gear's placement can cause. Oh ya, this hobby is great!!

Show me a pic of your set up John, would love to see your gear. I was looking at a Rega P1 today. I don't know why, but when I think of Rega or Krell I am reminded of you. You are the Krell-Rega man. Very simple and basic looking deck it was, I'm sure it sounds great though.

Tonight I am upgrading my Pioneer's RCA connects. I will replace them with Vampire Wire, stranded core, braided shield. Wish me luck, if it works out well, I will do it to my other 2 tables. I bought the wire and termination seperate. I don't feel like photographing it and Adam already has a thread concerning the same topic.

Blabbing on here...I'll post a pic of the finished product.

[atomicAdam]

Show me a pic of your set up John, would love to see your gear. I was looking at a Rega P1 today. I don't know why, but when I think of Rega or Krell I am reminded of you. You are the Krell-Rega man. Very simple and basic looking deck it was, I'm sure it sounds great though.

Tonight I am upgrading my Pioneer's RCA connects. I will replace them with Vampire Wire, stranded core, braided shield. Wish me luck, if it works out well, I will do it to my other 2 tables. I bought the wire and termination seperate. I don't feel like photographing it and Adam already has a thread concerning the same topic.

Blabbing on here...I'll post a pic of the finished product.

Here here! - I want to see a photo.

Also good luck poppa - I hope your endeavor.

[poppachubby]

How bout it John, are you set up to deliver a pic or 2?

[JohnMichael]

Yes whenI get home I will take some photos. I am at B&N reading the new Absolute Sound and in their "Tips For Improving Your system". Tip 13 is "Turn off digital components when listening to vinyl".

[poppachubby]

Ya I just saw that mag yesterday, tip 14 is stop upgrading and listen to music, right?

Let me tell ya, I try and do "the right thing" as much as I can but when something works, it works.

I bet I am 10 times happier than the dude who wrote that article. However, he is probably 10 times more knowledgable and with 10 times better gear than me.

My main system is anything but digital, but you know how I've been diggin my vinyl lately.

Anyhow, I didn't read the article closely, just each tip. Why should we be turning off our digital components?

[atomicAdam]

Anyhow, I didn't read the article closely, just each tip. Why should we be turning off our digital components?

Oh boy, can't wait to heat this one. Some RF waves screwing with the cartridge, or maybe the digital signal is so strong is somehow passes though the pre-amp ins and corrupts the analog signal in and messes up your sound. Or how about it causes electrical line noise and then screws up your analog electrical line...or how about because digital gives you cancer and reads your thoughts at night. Any of these close?

[atomicAdam]

How about a top 10.

Top 10 things you get back when you turn your digital components off.

10 - it will teach the dog not to pee inside
9 - lower blood pressure - getting up and flipping over the LP twice as often
8 - that $20 your wife took from your wallet this morning
7 - no digital humm in your component stand
6 - the laser from the reader screws with your cartridge
5 - the environmentalist will think you are green
4 - you'll finally learn the secrete to wemon
3 - in 2012 you'll be one of the lucky ones
2 - you like the Porsche, it's yours
1 - analog

[poppachubby]

Well Adam, do you mind if I shop that around to the different audio mags? It's ready for press!

[atomicAdam]

i think it could be funnier - but please go ahead

[poppachubby]

Man, I had my main system and my comp system running together today, essentially a bi-amp set up. It filled the room with a lovely sound, I suppose that somehow this isn't possible though. Is it wrong? Is it wrong to feel this way about digital and analog together?

(Keyboards begin playing, Paul McCartney starts verse)

"Digital, and an-a-log, live together in per-fect, har-mon-y, Side by side in my system, keyboard, oh lord, why don't we???"

(Keyboards fade out)

[JohnMichael]

The tips in Absolute Sound are in an article written by Robert Harley.

13 Turn of digital components when listening to vinyl.

Digital components (CD players, DACs, multchannel controllers) radiate noise that can pollute analog signals, particularly the miniscule output from a phono cartridge. Some digital components radiate noise even when turned off. Those products should be unplugged from the wall during analog listening sessions. The background becomes blacker and a haze over the music is lifted.


Thank you Robert and I agree.

It is free to try and you might be surprised.

[atomicAdam]

The tips in Absolute Sound are in an article written by Robert Harley.

13 Turn of digital components when listening to vinyl.

Digital components (CD players, DACs, multchannel controllers) radiate noise that can pollute analog signals, particularly the miniscule output from a phono cartridge. Some digital components radiate noise even when turned off. Those products should be unplugged from the wall during analog listening sessions. The background becomes blacker and a haze over the music is lifted.


Thank you Robert and I agree.

It is free to try and you might be surprised.

I called it - RF waves screwing with the cart!

[Hyfi]

9 - lower blood pressure - getting up and flipping over the LP twice as often


Wow, my BP must be in good shape. I don't flip vinyl but have to get up and adjust 2 volume knobs constantly as my Pre is not remote and of true dual mono design, one volume knob for each channel.

[atomicAdam]

Wow, my BP must be in good shape. I don't flip vinyl but have to get up and adjust 2 volume knobs constantly as my Pre is not remote and of true dual mono design, one volume knob for each channel.

LOL - me too - but - I've go to adjust volume and flip vinyl

[atomicAdam]

So here is something funny.

I think I can hear audio signals from an unselected input in my pre-amp.

I had something unselected but playing, and I turned the volume on the pre-amp up and low and behold I could hear the music on the unselected channel.

Maybe it does pay to unplug (from the wall) units not being used.

[E-Stat]

Due to space limitations my phono preamp sits on my cd player. I discovered that turning the cd player off reduces a very slight irritation to the sound.
ALL digital devices radiate RFI both directly in proximity and back through the AC. Cable boxes. DVRs. Routers. Access points. They can all effect the results. Just for grins, take a portable AM radio and tune it off station. Move it close to a digital source and hear the interference. While listening to a digital source where you can't turn it off, the same situation applies to the amplification stages. You need both distance and electrical isolation (typically via power conditioners and/or aftermarket AC cords).

rw

[poppachubby]

I had something unselected but playing,


Is this something you do regularily? Personally I choose to shut off any unused source. So aside from the purpose of a science experiment, not too practical.

[atomicAdam]

Is this something you do regularily? Personally I choose to shut off any unused source. So aside from the purpose of a science experiment, not too practical.

Isn't it all in the name of science? And no, not something I do on a regular basis. It just happened when I was flipping between cables and I moved to an unselected input to switch the cables in but kept the CD playing.

[poppachubby]

You need both distance and electrical isolation (typically via power conditioners and/or aftermarket AC cords).

rw

I think I have enough of both, certainly as much as I'm willing to do. I think "tip 13" is probably good advice for anyone who has grossly breached this area of audio. I think most of the regulars here understand enough about seperation and such. However, maybe not. Either way, Stevie Wonder would tell you that him and his band are quite content playing through my system right now....quite!!

[poppachubby]

Isn't it all in the name of science? And no, not something I do on a regular basis. It just happened when I was flipping between cables and I moved to an unselected input to switch the cables in but kept the CD playing.


Adam, Adam...I know!! I was being sarcastic...

[E-Stat]

I think "tip 13" is probably good advice for anyone who has grossly breached this area of audio.
My point is that other digital demons exist in many homes which happily spew digital hash back into the AC. I leave my cableboxes and the like powered down, too. For serious listening in the main system, I shut down my Wi-Fi.

rw

[poppachubby]

My point is that other digital demons exist in many homes which happily spew digital hash back into the AC. I leave my cableboxes and the like powered down, too. For serious listening in the main system, I shut down my Wi-Fi.

rw

Now this is an area I'm ignorant about. Power conditioning. I have all of my stuff on the same breaker circuit. However, I use one wall plug for the comp/digital and another through a cheap protector for my main system. I do however play my main system while the comp is powered up. Are you saying this will cause sonic issues?

[JohnMichael]

As requested my system.

[JohnMichael]

A close up of ttable and electronics.

[JohnMichael]

Oh and my new end table.

[JohnMichael]

Now I know how to resize pictures. My DSLR creates files that are too large but now that I can resize who knows what I might share.

[poppachubby]

Looks great John!! Thanks for sharing. We chat with each other on here about our stuff but it's nice to be able to picture it. Speakers look stupid tough, I see now why your neighbour gave up...

[poppachubby]

BTW, ever re-cabled a TT's RCA's?

[JohnMichael]

Some fall colors in Ohio.

[JohnMichael]

BTW, ever re-cabled a TT's RCA's?



No I sent my tonearm away to be rewired. Now the wire is continuous from the cartridge clips to the rca jacks.

[poppachubby]

Antique Table? God I wish I could have antiques but the kids are too young...

[JohnMichael]

Antique Table? God I wish I could have antiques but the kids are too young...


Not an antique but recently crafted by an Amish furniture maker out of solid maple stainded in cherry. Works well with other antiques I have.

[poppachubby]

Great pic BTW. Some skill in photography I see. John Michael, you are a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

[E-Stat]

Now this is an area I'm ignorant about. Power conditioning. I have all of my stuff on the same breaker circuit. However, I use one wall plug for the comp/digital and another through a cheap protector for my main system. I do however play my main system while the comp is powered up. Are you saying this will cause sonic issues?
Yes. The pervasive use of switching power supplies used today in so many consumer goods is like fluorescent lights: they are very efficient, yet extremely noisy on the AC line. They put high frequency hash on the line that is not entirely filtered away by the power supplies of most amplification stages. Your CD player itself is a source of digital nasties that need to be isolated. In a perfect world, you would be running digital devices on a separate breaker and they be physically separated from other components. Translation: don't put your CD player next to or on top of a pre or power amp. In the real world, however, most folks run their components from a common breaker. Conditioners and many aftermarket power cords filter the HF grunge so that it does not infect other components especially those in the amplification chain.

At first blush, the downstream effects of RFI sounds good. It manifests itself as a brightening of the signal with seemingly more detail. In actuality what you hear is merely noise that masks real detail. I would strongly suggest investing $60-$100 in an entry level power conditioner from any number of sources. Experience-free engineers completely miss the boat on this topic. They focus on the "miles and miles" canard and assume the problem exists with your local power sub station. It does not. The evil lurks from within your house. While I'm not a big Monster Cable proponent, they do make some very decent low end conditioners designed by guys like Richard Marsh and Demian Martin. I use two of their HT1000 units in my systems. What you'll hear initially is that the sound is a bit darker. Less high frequency content. That's bad, right? Not at all. What you will really find is that a layer of noise is removed that allows true detail to come forth. There is an engineer over at another audio site whom I've visited who calls this phenomena "non-bright". It is the musical truth.

rw

[poppachubby]

Wow. Well Mr. Stat, I have one available line from my box. Since my equipment is quite literally located next to it, what should I do? I also have a friend who is an electrician and would labour for free (box of beer). Do you think 1 or 2 plugs in series from a seperate line for the main system would solve the problem. I mean, if I had the comp on another line, running simultaneously? If so, this is an option for me.

Tell me the ideal scenario. If you look at any pic I've posted of my comp set up, you will see my breaker box on the wall, neatly hidden.

This would probably be a cheaper option for me than power conditioning items from a retailer.

[E-Stat]

Do you think 1 or 2 plugs in series from a seperate line for the main system would solve the problem. I mean, if I had the comp on another line, running simultaneously? If so, this is an option for me.
As I said, you want all digital devices isolated from the rest of your system. That includes the Cd player. If he could run an outlet for the computer in the corner and one down the wall for your CDP, that would be great. Ideally, you would have isolated lines and a conditioner to further prevent "backwash" into your AC line.

rw

[poppachubby]

As I said, you want all digital devices isolated from the rest of your system. That includes the Cd player. If he could run an outlet for the computer in the corner and one down the wall for your CDP, that would be great. Ideally, you would have isolated lines and a conditioner to further prevent "backwash" into your AC line.

rw

I spoke with him just now. Yes, I could configure the plugs however I like. I will add 2 for the main system and use the existing line for the comp and the CDP. Great!! He says it will cost 30 - 40 in parts. He wanted me to ask you if industry standard 14/2 line is acceptable, or do you use something different?

[atomicAdam]

A close up of ttable and electronics.


Awesome to see another set or RS6 on the forums!

[E-Stat]

He says it will cost 30 - 40 in parts. He wanted me to ask you if industry standard 14/2 line is acceptable, or do you use something different?
Now that's a deal! Yes, 14 gauge is certainly adequate for most systems since it handles 15 amps. If you ever plan on getting some really high powered amps, then you might consider 12 gauge. Each of my mono amps consumes up to 1200 watts where a 20 amp breaker would be required.

rw

[Jim Eck]

Are you 110v or 220v?

220v you can run the lighter guage wire, in the US it is 110v, you may want to see what VA draw you will be looking at, my Adcom 585 is capable of pulling 1850VA, I would not run less than 12 guage for it myself, I am currently running a 220v 30 amp circuit (10ga) to a Furman Sequencer to be able to safely power both it and the Hafler Pro 500 to full rated power, the Hafler can pull as much as 1500VA. The two of them together have the potential to pull 3350VA, the sequencer will turn the 220v into 2 20 amp circuits with breakers at the sequencer.

I have ran it on one 110v circuit through a Monster power conditioner, you could see the voltage drop in the meter when the amp peaked, that is what convinced me to change, never starve your amp. I prefer to not have the wire be the weak link but rather the breaker.

If you do run the 14ga, run 14/3 and be sure to hook the circuit to a good ground.

Jim

[audio amateur]

Nice setup JM, and very nice fall photo!

[poppachubby]

Now that's a deal! Yes, 14 gauge is certainly adequate for most systems since it handles 15 amps. If you ever plan on getting some really high powered amps, then you might consider 12 gauge. Each of my mono amps consumes up to 1200 watts where a 20 amp breaker would be required.

rw

Shoot, I had a big reply wrote out and I erased it by accident. Now I am uninspired. Thanks for the direction E-Stat!

My buddy will be coming Friday AM. Thanks for the heads up Jim, but guys, I think I'll stick with 14g for now as I certainly don't have any gear that would pose this kind of power threat. Worst case scenario, I'll upgrade it. I have a drop ceiling which makes access really easy.

I am quite excited about this upgrade. I can't afford a power conditioner so the price is right and I will be getting way better performance vs the conditioner. Also, the set-up will allow for A/B testing so I can hopefully hear "the musical truth". I am not overly concerned anyhow, with an available breaker, it just seems like a good move . I'll be sure to take some pics and give some thoughts on the results.

This type of move is directly in line with what I am trying to do. Optimize my current gear/set up rather than upgrade. Once everything has met it's full potential, I think I will begin to try and critically listen to find the holes.

BTW E? I came across an old thread of yours on Audio Asylum. It was you and another guy reminiscing about your lives and how you got started in audio, some of the gear you had, etc. I was doing a search on an old Daveco Pre-amp and one of you had mentioned it. Funny huh?

OK thanks again, and Jim thank you for the advice.

[poppachubby]

Are you 110v or 220v?

220v you can run the lighter guage wire, in the US it is 110v, you may want to see what VA draw you will be looking at, my Adcom 585 is capable of pulling 1850VA, I would not run less than 12 guage for it myself, I am currently running a 220v 30 amp circuit (10ga) to a Furman Sequencer to be able to safely power both it and the Hafler Pro 500 to full rated power, the Hafler can pull as much as 1500VA. The to of them together have the potential to pull 3350VA, the sequencer will turn the 220v into 2 20 amp circuits with breakers at the sequencer.

I have ran it on one 110v circuit through a Monster power conditioner, you could see the voltage drop in the meter when the amp peaked, that is what convinced me to change, never starve your amp. I prefer to not have the wire be the weak link but rather the breaker.

If you do run the 14ga, run 14/3 and be sure to hook the circuit to a good ground.

Jim

Not entirely sure Jim, I think 110. I will have my buddy assess all of that. He will be coming Friday am and I'll post here. You have some nice gear. If you look at my sig you will see my meager list. Certainly no power leeches. My stuff is old and mostly mid-fi but I have everything in top shape. The synergy is impressive and as a result I get a really nice sound. I have seen guys with TOTL who have no synergy at all, sounds like crap.

So, I am happy for now. My mission is to have everything I own in top shape, running at its full potential. Today, I am taking in my Avant 715 speakers for re-foaming. I'm quite excited about it. I just had my Citizen professionally tuned-up. I am almost done re-cabling my Pioneer TT with some super fat connects.

So you see, that's a little info about me. Maybe too much? Maybe not enough? Maybe you've fallen asleep or closed this post already.

I hope you stick around Jim, so far your batting 1000. You're obviously a knowledgable guy and everyone here loves that. So Jim, you will get an elusive headbang, only reserved for the most deserving of moments!!

[Jim Eck]

Not entirely sure Jim, I think 110. I will have my buddy assess all of that. He will be coming Friday am and I'll post here. You have some nice gear. If you look at my sig you will see my meager list. Certainly no power leeches. My stuff is old and mostly mid-fi but I have everything in top shape. The synergy is impressive and as a result I get a really nice sound. I have seen guys with TOTL who have no synergy at all, sounds like crap.

So, I am happy for now. My mission is to have everything I own in top shape, running at its full potential. Today, I am taking in my Avant 715 speakers for re-foaming. I'm quite excited about it. I just had my Citizen professionally tuned-up. I am almost done re-cabling my Pioneer TT with some super fat connects.

So you see, that's a little info about me. Maybe too much? Maybe not enough? Maybe you've fallen asleep or closed this post already.

I hope you stick around Jim, so far your batting 1000. You're obviously a knowledgable guy and everyone here loves that. So Jim, you will get an elusive headbang, only reserved for the most deserving of moments!!

Have you considered refoaming speakers yourself? It is really quite easy, I started with a small pair of Infinity's just to learn and gain some confidence. I can provide some sources and link you to pictures of it being done.

On the wire I need to make an edit, technically it would be 14/2 with ground in the US, I am not familiar with the UK, but with all electronics a good earth ground is important.

I am a big fan of all gear, I have equipment in all forms, all hold a special place in my heart.

Jim

[poppachubby]

Have you considered refoaming speakers yourself? It is really quite easy, I started with a small pair of Infinity's just to learn and gain some confidence. I can provide some sources and link you to pictures of it being done.

On the wire I need to make an edit, technically it would be 14/2 with ground in the US, I am not familiar with the UK, but with all electronics a good earth ground is important.

I am a big fan of all gear, I have equipment in all forms, all hold a special place in my heart.

Jim

Not the UK, Cana-duh mon ami, eh?

[Jim Eck]

Not the UK, Cana-duh mon ami, eh?
My apologies, my mistake in assuming London.

It is still a pretty simple thing to do, for a first try you might consider picking up an inexpensive pair of speakers at a Thrift Store and practicve the first time on them.

Jim

[poppachubby]

Yes, I am able to do it Jim, however, I have befriended a great pro. He is going to put in new tweeters and that's it. Turns out foaming is ok for now. Generally speaking, I do most of what I can, when I can, sometimes to a fault. I would never pay someone to re-foam my speakers. He was going to look at the wiring originally and told me he would re-foam them too.

Thanks for the advice, there's actually some amazing threads here on foaming and other speaker DIY if you wanted to research anything like that. Gotta dig em up...

[Jim Eck]

Yes, I am able to do it Jim, however, I have befriended a great pro. He is going to put in new tweeters and that's it. Turns out foaming is ok for now. Generally speaking, I do most of what I can, when I can, sometimes to a fault. I would never pay someone to re-foam my speakers. He was going to look at the wiring originally and told me he would re-foam them too.

Thanks for the advice, there's actually some amazing threads here on foaming and other speaker DIY if you wanted to research anything like that. Gotta dig em up...

I read the one Piece-it-Pete wrote, I met Pete at a audio get togetehr a couple years ago, really nice guy.

A beneficial upgrade your friend might look into is to recap the crossover if required, and maybe some upgraded binding posts.

I am putting some new binding posts in a pair of JBL Century 100's, the originals aren't really very good (spring clip type) and are a real pain to use any decent speaker wire on let alone banana plugs. I use them when I spin some vinyl at the local watering hole and it gets to be a major pain in the rear to hook them up.

Keep em spinning.

Jim

[poppachubby]

I read the one Piece-it-Pete wrote, I met Pete at a audio get togetehr a couple years ago, really nice guy.

A beneficial upgrade your friend might look into is to recap the crossover if required, and maybe some upgraded binding posts.

I am putting some new binding posts in a pair of JBL Century 100's, the originals aren't really very good (spring clip type) and are a real pain to use any decent speaker wire on let alone banana plugs. I use them when I spin some vinyl at the local watering hole and it gets to be a major pain in the rear to hook them up.

Keep em spinning.

Jim

I've got super tough, threaded posts with locking nuts. I terminate the speaker end with gold spades or rings. I'll suggest to him about the crossover, the thing is, I think he's doing that as it is.

He's an audio technician, his speciality is tubes so he might get annoyed if I suggest anything to him. You know how these electronic types are....fickle and neurotic, probably because he stays up all night with his head in an amp for half of the week.

You sound like you have quite a background in audio Jim. What's your story? I am 32 years old with wife and kids. I am a bass player and music afficianado. My dad was a gearhead back in the day, and I mostly picked up the hobby from him. I have only been posting here for a few months. I have never been a member of any forum previous to this, nor do I currently belong to any others.

I have learned a ton since being here, from guys like yourself. Projects like the power conditioning are things I would never have even considered before coming here.

Maybe that's a bad thing?!? LOL, you'd have to ask my wife.

Aside from your background, what are your interests. Style of music? Favorite gear? Vintage vs New?

[Jim Eck]

Sounds like you are already on top of it as to binding posts, many early speaker manufacturers built some terrific speakers and then cheaped out on the binding posts.

I am a 51 year old leftover hippie, we use to really love sitting back and listening to our favorite bands.http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n43/Virago_1986/bakedsmiley7xx.gif (that was then, this is now) I do Research and Development in a Midwest bakery factory. What little knowledge I have regarding gear is through personal experience and reading on the boards, I am active on 3 other boards and am a Moderator on one of them, and a member of others but not active. I have two kids that are for the most part raised. I enjoy my gear and music as well as hunting, fishing, motorcyles and beer. I listen to a lot of various types of music, from Grateful Dead to Henry Mancini, you never know where the mood will take you.

Jim

[poppachubby]

Sounds like you are already on top of it as to binding posts, many early speaker manufacturers built some terrific speakers and then cheaped out on the binding posts.

I am a 51 year old leftover hippie, we use to really love sitting back and listening to our favorite bands.http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n43/Virago_1986/bakedsmiley7xx.gif (that was then, this is now) I do Research and Development in a Midwest bakery factory. What little knowledge I have regarding gear is through personal experience and reading on the boards, I am active on 3 other boards and am a Moderator on one of them, and a member of others but not active. I have two kids that are for the most part raised. I enjoy my gear and music as well as hunting, fishing, motorcyles and beer. I listen to a lot of various types of music, from Grateful Dead to Henry Mancini, you never know where the mood will take you.

Jim

Aha, who doesn't like to partake and enjoy some hi-fi? No one that I know. I am like you when it comes to music, I listen based on mood. I actually once tried to organize my CD collection based on this, but overall it wasn't very good, didn't work out.