need amp advice for B&W nautilus 805

[koven]

hey guys, i currently run a peachtree decco -> n805's as a 2.0.. using my computer a source

the decco works suprisingly well in powering the n805... but im looking for that extra bass/clarity while keeping the mids honey smooth

i know these speakers are power hungry, but i dont need anything crazy for a ~12x14 room

i was thinking of picking up a mcintosh mc7100 and keeping the decco as a dac/pre

do you guys think that would work well?

if not, what are some better options? ive heard mcintosh + b&w is a good match, but ive also heard the same about anthem, rotel, classe, etc

i've also thought about just upgrading to the peachtree nova and calling it a day, since i like the decco so much

any advice is appreciated, thanks

[RGA]

First I want to clear up something as it really bothers me that the myth gets propagated on forums over and over again. The B&W N805 is NOT a hard to drive speaker. While it typically only measures ~86db sensitive it has a minimum impedance of 4.8 ohms - this is a VERY easy to drive loudspeaker.

The issue of needing more power likely has come about because of owner's expecting more from the speaker than it is capable of. The speaker is not hard to drive but the lowish sensitivity might mean you'd want 30-50 watts.

I'd tend to go lower in power to get better quality sound rather than high power which means high negative feedback which means worse sound. I'd definitely only consider McIntosh tube amplifiers. For SS I'd look at Sugden. Buy a quality sounding amplifier over a quantity of brute force sounding amplifier. The latter can be tiring after awhile.

[harley .guy07]

I don't know because I havent put a low powered tube amp on a pair of 805's but 86 db effeciency if this is a true rating of this speaker(a lot of speakers seem to be either more or less efficient than their ratings) is not real high refficiency,not to say its real low either but there are many speakers with higher efficiency than that, When I heard them they were being powered by some McIntosh 500 watt monoblocks and they sounded great. I wouldn't be afraid to put some power to them! and not all high powered amplifiers sound bad. This is just my opinion and I have heard plenty of low and high powered amps that sound good and I guess its just a mater of tastes, Source and preamp components. and what you are trying to get out of your speakers. If you are listening at lower volumes and since your room is not that big you could probably get away with fewer watts but you don't want to loose bottom end or dynamics because you are powering them with a little wimp of an amp.

[koven]

First I want to clear up something as it really bothers me that the myth gets propagated on forums over and over again. The B&W N805 is NOT a hard to drive speaker. While it typically only measures ~86db sensitive it has a minimum impedance of 4.8 ohms - this is a VERY easy to drive loudspeaker.

The issue of needing more power likely has come about because of owner's expecting more from the speaker than it is capable of. The speaker is not hard to drive but the lowish sensitivity might mean you'd want 30-50 watts.

I'd tend to go lower in power to get better quality sound rather than high power which means high negative feedback which means worse sound. I'd definitely only consider McIntosh tube amplifiers. For SS I'd look at Sugden. Buy a quality sounding amplifier over a quantity of brute force sounding amplifier. The latter can be tiring after awhile.

i could tell they are easy to drive.. the decco is only 50wpc and it sounds really good already... if anything, the bass is a bit lacking..so i'm curious about upgrading

i know a lot of people run mcintosh with b&w, so i'd assume it's a safe choice? the reason i'm asking is, there's a used mc7100 (100wpc) that i'm thinking about buying... but.. do you think tubes would sound a lot better?




I don't know because I havent put a low powered tube amp on a pair of 805's but 86 db effeciency if this is a true rating of this speaker(a lot of speakers seem to be either more or less efficient than their ratings) is not real high refficiency,not to say its real low either but there are many speakers with higher efficiency than that, When I heard them they were being powered by some McIntosh 500 watt monoblocks and they sounded great. I wouldn't be afraid to put some power to them! and not all high powered amplifiers sound bad. This is just my opinion and I have heard plenty of low and high powered amps that sound good and I guess its just a mater of tastes, Source and preamp components. and what you are trying to get out of your speakers. If you are listening at lower volumes and since your room is not that big you could probably get away with fewer watts but you don't want to loose bottom end or dynamics because you are powering them with a little wimp of an amp.

thanks for the advice, as much as i love the highs/mids on the decco, the last sentence is really how i'm feeling right now

[harley .guy07]

Yeah low end seems to be naturaly where the sound seems to suffer the most with lower powered amps, Which is to be expected seeing that bass takes the most current to produce. I have heard good setups with McIntosh and B&W speakers but not with all the amps that McIntosh produce and especially the tube models. I have heard good sound with Classe amps and Acurus, even Adcom amps running B&W speakers sounded good. I used to sell B&W speakers so I have tried many different combinations with them with some good results. I do understand what RGA is saying about getting more quality than quantity but in todays world I believe there are several good choices of Amplifiers out there that can give you the quality you desire with the power you need to drive your speakers to your desired level and dynamics.

[blackraven]

If you want plenty of power, detail and great dynamics consider the Parasound A21. It 's 250wpc at 8ohms, 400 wpc at 4 ohms and peaks at 750wpc. It has very good bass slam.

Also consider the Van Alstine FET Valve hybrid tube amp. Its 250/500 wpc and leans to the slightly warmer side. Its not as glamorous looking as the Mac but its a great buy. www.avahifi.com

I also like Classe amps!

[Mr Peabody]

The Mac would probably sound good with your speakers. Brands like Conrad Johnson and Musical Fidelity are also known for excellent midrange while maintaining solid bass.

[koven]

thanks, i picked up the mc7100.. hope all goes well

[Feanor]

thanks, i picked up the mc7100.. hope all goes well

Congrats, Koven. I think you'll enjoy the Mac.

http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/Images/MC7100_Front_01.jpg

Too bad no big blue meters, though! :D

[atomicAdam]

thanks, i picked up the mc7100.. hope all goes well



Ok Koven, You've done half the work. Once you get to know the system a bit more come back and give up a write up. The more info out there the better for everyone.

Thanks,
-aA

[Geoffcin]

thanks, i picked up the mc7100.. hope all goes well

Another thing you can do is bi-amp the 805's. I've heard a lot of good things about bi-amping B&W's.

[koven]

Congrats, Koven. I think you'll enjoy the Mac.

http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/Images/MC7100_Front_01.jpg

Too bad no big blue meters, though! :D

Nice! Is that yours? Any comments on your experiences with it?

I know, I would have loved meters but the nicer amps are out of my price range since I spent most of my budget on the 805's.


Ok Koven, You've done half the work. Once you get to know the system a bit more come back and give up a write up. The more info out there the better for everyone.

Thanks,
-aA

I will definitely report back w/ my thoughts, once I've received the MC7100 (shipping out on Monday)

Also, since you say the more info the better.... I thought I'd add some comments on the Emotiva UPA-2 ($299, 125WPC)

I first bought the UPA-2 to use w/ my Decco, mainly because it was cheap and Emotiva has great reviews. However, whether it's a problem with synergy or what not, the UPA-2 totally sucked the life out of the vocals (compared to using the Decco alone).

This taught me a valuable lesson in WPC.... and that it's not as relevant/important as people make it out to be. The only improvement the UPA-2 provided was extra bass... and maybe a tad bit more clarity, but it was not worth sacrificing the rich, life-like mids that the 805's are capable of. The timbre/tone just didn't sound/feel right with the UPA-2.

So that was what ultimately led me to try higher-end brands.. the UPA-2 has been returned.


Another thing you can do is bi-amp the 805's. I've heard a lot of good things about bi-amping B&W's.

Hmm I thought about that but I've read mixed opinions on whether or not it makes a difference.. but I do plan on finding out for myself.

I'm actually also in the process of picking cables.. I need 1m RCA and 2m speaker cables. I know cables can easily get expensive, but I need to keep it relatively cheap.. probably $300-$400 for both. I was thinking of going with Morrow Audio since a lot of people have liked their cables and said great stuff about it's sound and value. I'm also considering Kimber, but they're more expensive. I thought about Anti-Cables too, but I don't like how they look and aesthetics is a definite factor for me, since my rig is not only for sound.. but also eye candy. Probably taboo to say that, but.. whatever floats my boat, right? :)

[harley .guy07]

yeah I have heard of a lot of good results powering B&W speakers with McIntosh amps. they seem to work well together. I think you will enjoy this setup and let us know what you think after you hook it up and listen for a while.

[frenchmon]

Nice! Is that yours? Any comments on your experiences with it?

I know, I would have loved meters but the nicer amps are out of my price range since I spent most of my budget on the 805's.



I will definitely report back w/ my thoughts, once I've received the MC7100 (shipping out on Monday)

Also, since you say the more info the better.... I thought I'd add some comments on the Emotiva UPA-2 ($299, 125WPC)

I first bought the UPA-2 to use w/ my Decco, mainly because it was cheap and Emotiva has great reviews. However, whether it's a problem with synergy or what not, the UPA-2 totally sucked the life out of the vocals (compared to using the Decco alone).

This taught me a valuable lesson in WPC.... and that it's not as relevant/important as people make it out to be. The only improvement the UPA-2 provided was extra bass... and maybe a tad bit more clarity, but it was not worth sacrificing the rich, life-like mids that the 805's are capable of. The timbre/tone just didn't sound/feel right with the UPA-2.

So that was what ultimately led me to try higher-end brands.. the UPA-2 has been returned.



Hmm I thought about that but I've read mixed opinions on whether or not it makes a difference.. but I do plan on finding out for myself.

I'm actually also in the process of picking cables.. I need 1m RCA and 2m speaker cables. I know cables can easily get expensive, but I need to keep it relatively cheap.. probably $300-$400 for both. I was thinking of going with Morrow Audio since a lot of people have liked their cables and said great stuff about it's sound and value. I'm also considering Kimber, but they're more expensive. I thought about Anti-Cables too, but I don't like how they look and aesthetics is a definite factor for me, since my rig is not only for sound.. but also eye candy. Probably taboo to say that, but.. whatever floats my boat, right? :)


IF you go with the Morrow cables please give a detailed report. Ive read nothing but great things about Morrow. And I think he has some of the cables discounted.

frenchmon

[koven]

yeah I have heard of a lot of good results powering B&W speakers with McIntosh amps. they seem to work well together. I think you will enjoy this setup and let us know what you think after you hook it up and listen for a while.

yeah i've heard/read the same, i got my fingers crossed, will report back in a week or two


IF you go with the Morrow cables please give a detailed report. Ive read nothing but great things about Morrow. And I think he has some of the cables discounted.

frenchmon

i'm really leaning towards Morrow since 1) some cables are discounted and 2) i like the look 3) he offers a full refund within 60 days...

actually, the more i think about it - i'm probably going to pull the trigger this weekend on the MA1 and SP1... starting low, will move up if i really like them.. but yeah, i will report back after some critical listening and a/b'ing with monoprice cables

[Feanor]

Nice! Is that yours? Any comments on your experiences with it?

...

No, not my MC7100. The picture comes from this excellent site dedicated to McIntosh of all vintages ... Berner's Site (http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/en/McHome.htm).

[Geoffcin]

Hmm I thought about that but I've read mixed opinions on whether or not it makes a difference.. but I do plan on finding out for myself.

I'm actually also in the process of picking cables.. I need 1m RCA and 2m speaker cables. I know cables can easily get expensive, but I need to keep it relatively cheap.. probably $300-$400 for both. I was thinking of going with Morrow Audio since a lot of people have liked their cables and said great stuff about it's sound and value. I'm also considering Kimber, but they're more expensive. I thought about Anti-Cables too, but I don't like how they look and aesthetics is a definite factor for me, since my rig is not only for sound.. but also eye candy. Probably taboo to say that, but.. whatever floats my boat, right? :)

Well I can recommend HGA cables wholeheartedly. http://www.homegrownaudio.com/

Very high quality, and not too expensive. For small signal I always use pure Silver. Silver is the most conductive metal, and you will loose the minimum signal with a Silver interconnect. The whole idea with interconnects is to keep as much of the signal intact and exactly as the source has outputted. If you can hear your cables, good or bad, there''s something wrong. I like Anti-cables too. If I was going copper that's what I would choose. Actually, for speaker cables I think you really would have a hard time beating the Anti-cable.

Bi-amping is not some esoteric thing that audiophiles do to impress the neighbors. Even B&W themselves with their most impressive speaker, the flagship Nautilus, uses a NO crossover pure multi-amping design. Absolutely brilliant engineering. And a nod to people who make use of multi-amps in their sound systems.

[audio amateur]

Even B&W themselves with their most impressive speaker, the flagship Nautilus, uses a NO crossover pure multi-amping design. Absolutely brilliant engineering. And a nod to people who make use of multi-amps in their sound systems.
If by no crossover you mean no passive crossover then you are correct but as they are a 4-way design I'm pretty sure they use active crossovers, and thus are quad-amped.

[Mr Peabody]

I guess if a speaker is designed to be bi-amped it might be best but it seems like the simpler, or more straight forward, approach the better. It would be a good way to use tubes for mids/highs while solid state for bass without compromise. Naim has always embraced bi-amping as well as a few other British manufacturers. Dynaudio to my knowledge has never designed a speaker to allow biamping. So I guess it comes down to the manufacturer's philosophy. It would seem bi-amping could open up to a host of issues that would be avoided by not doing it. I mean, who better to know what crossover point to use and most have difficulty blending a sub let alone two or three amps. I've only done bi-amping a bit in pro sound set up and that wasn't a science, we mainly used the manufacturer's specs and associated crossovers. Well, I've designed a lot of car audio systems, would that be same principle?

How do you set your gains so you hear a even response from all amps? Like if you were using tubes for mids/highs, or if you used a much more powerful amp for the woofers? Seems the possibility of one end or the other over powering the sound would be great. Especially, with using a passive crossover.

[Geoffcin]

If by no crossover you mean no passive crossover then you are correct but as they are a 4-way design I'm pretty sure they use active crossovers, and thus are quad-amped.

Exactly that, no passive caps,inductors, ect. in the signal path. Direct amp-to-speaker.

[Mr Peabody]

Here's the Stereophile review if no one has seen it or wants to scan it again: http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/168/

He used some beefy amps to drive them.

[Geoffcin]

How do you set your gains so you hear a even response from all amps? Like if you were using tubes for mids/highs, or if you used a much more powerful amp for the woofers? Seems the possibility of one end or the other over powering the sound would be great. Especially, with using a passive crossover.

I've only ever seen/used biamping with matched amps, ie. two PS Audio HCA-2 in a vertical bi-amping configuration. Some receivers like my Pioneer are also setup that if you only run a 5.1 configuration (rather than 7.1) you can use the 2 center back amps to bi-amp the mains. Never did this yet but it should be pretty easy.

I would guess that if you use multiple amps with different gain settings then you would have to put an attenuator somewhere upstream of the amps to level them. I don't think it would be too hard to do ff you have a dB meter (and everyone should!).

[Geoffcin]

I mean, who better to know what crossover point to use and most have difficulty blending a sub let alone two or three amps.

I guess you could build a speaker with no crossover and use sophisticated software to feed the amps a truncated spectrum signal but that is very high tech. The boys at B&W save it for their flagship so it must be good stuff! However, every commercial speaker that I've see that is set up for bi-amping uses the internal crossovers. (except for the flagship Nautilus) So no need to figure out crossover points and such. Just hook your amps up. My HT mains are a bi-amp design with the woofers being powered by an internal 300w amp. Really unloads the receiver to power the surrounds.

[Mr Peabody]

Ah, OK, if still using the internalcrossover this would eliminate a lot of issues. For some reason I was picturing one of those Naim set ups with the external crossover etc.

[harley .guy07]

I have seen it done both ways. I have seen DIY designs that use an electronic crossover in front of the amps to crossover the speakers drivers before amplification and I have seen the passive crossovers used after amplification. I tend to believe that the best results could be had with active(electronic) crossovers if the drivers work well together and sound right without any passive filters or compensators. The less passive circuits in the signal path between the amp and driver then the more unaltered signal the driver should get. This is something car audio has adopted for years but home audio has only used in a few cases in ultra high end designs. I think with clean enough active circuits with electronic compensators for driver response and impedance could possibly be have the best results. I think the cost, and power necessities of people in their home systems are what keep people from going that route. Most single amped systems produce enough volume and dynamics to satisfy most people in their homes and that why you don't hear more about active crossovers and multi amp designs, Where car audio is typically a higher volume bass heavy environment that is designed much different than most home systems.

[koven]

just an update.. i got my mc7100 recently and it sounds about 100x better than the upa-2.. okay, that's an exaggeration but you get the picture, lol.

long story short, this was the sound i was looking for... it's seriously a night and day difference from the upa-2. the bass is cleaner/tighter.. the vocals are much more natural and sounds very realistic.. the timbre/tone is just right. sound is smoother overall, less sibilant and just very rich. after all the reading about mcintosh + b&w, i'm a believer now, no actually, i'm a big fan now. even thinking about ditching the decco for a DAC + mcintosh preamp. or i might get another mc7100 for mono. but we'll see, dont want to get ahead of myself, im very satisified right now and will likely keep this combo for a while.

as for cables, i won some zu cables (wylde/birth/wax) off ebay for good prices.. im going to try that for now and if i'm not satisfied, morrow audio will likely be my next set

i also have many 2" ats acoustic panels on the way.. i will try to take some pictures when everything is done

[harley .guy07]

Yeah I have allways liked the way that McIntosh and B&W worked together. the McIntosh amp is in a different league than the Emotiva so it is to be expected to sound better and the fact that the McIntosh and B&W synergy has allready been established over the years this does not surprise me. I am glad you are happy with your setup and I figured you would be. you can look for other ways to improve things but if I were you I would just sit back and enjoy for a while and let that McIntosh give you the audio bliss you have been craving.

[harley .guy07]

hey Koven if you would not have said the bottom end was so much better with the mac then I would say just to try it and if your preamp has duel outputs try to biamp the B&W's with the Emo on the bottom end and the McIntosh on the top end and see how it sounds. I would probably say it won't be what you want but since you have the amp there you might as well see what it sounds like. Sometimes when you take an amp off of full range duty and put it just for bass use it will tighten up because it is not trying to drive the rest of the speaker. This would be just an experiment and it will probably just prove the McIntosh as a better component even more but hell you have them both there you might as well play with your options. Its just an idea. But most likely in your small room this will not yield any real performance gain at anything but the highest volumes and if your like me your not trying to have a concert your just trying to enjoy some quality music. Just an idea more for the fun of it more than anything.