Tube Versus SolidState

[royvickynbrady]

I need to determine why I would or would not want tube or solidstate. Any comments?

[skeptic]

We have this war every few months almost on schedule. Here are some of the cases for both sides.

Tubes sound more musical. The kind of distortion they create is more pleasing to the human ear. They don't have the shrillness of solid state amplifiers and have a "warm" sound. Class A tube amplifier although generally low in power have the best most musical sound available. OK, that's the gist of what the tube guys say.

Solid state proponents say; transistor amplifiers sound clearer, have less noise and distortion, flatter frequency response, better more solid tighter bass, don't deteriorate with time, don't generate as much heat, are more reliable, cost less for the same amount of power.

Have I left anything out?

Which side am I on personally? I would say that there are good and bad examples of each. I've lived through both eras and personally I prefer solid state amplifiers. However, should someone wish to donate an old McIntosh or Marantz tube unit to my collection, you won't hear me complain.

[mtrycraft]

We have this war every few months almost on schedule. ..


It's on schedule. :) He made it so :)

[RGA]

Agree with skeptic...except that you don't have to go back in time to find tube amplifiers. Hell some of those Macs probably cost 10 times now what they did then.

Though McIntosh's has decided to return to making tubes agains since most of their Solid State amps have been rubbished in the press as poorly designed units. Their flagship line as I write this is all tube - this may rekindle the company and help put them back in the stores here who have been steadily dumping the company.

Trouble is they've got some stiff tube amp makers to copete with.

You know all the arguments are rather silly. GO and listen...do not be persuaded by technical arguments or the tube NEATO factor. Tubes have ergonomic draw backs. They're heavier usually 3-4 times as heavy and made out of solid steel with excellent parts and will easily outlast the rubbish you'll get from JAPAN. BUT, you won't get surround sound, you won't likely get a remote, you'll have to buy tubes every 2-10 years at $10.00 per tube roughly, they run hot, they are not as powerful even though a 30 watt tube amp typically sounds as loud as any 90watt SS amp, they require more attention such as biasing(the pain in the ass factors). SS usually is moe user friendly and has lots more inputs including SUbwoofer outputs and is easier to upgrade(say to add on a power amp).

There is no cost advantage on initial purchase. You can buy a tube separates monoblock set-up for $400.00 which will drive 98% of speakers to deafening levels. You can do that with SS for that money all in one box.

Depending on your speakers tubes can be a lot a fun, and I like the sound from the right set-ups. But what I like makes no difference go out and listen to a Jolida 302B or Antique Sound Labs AQ1003DT versus the NAD C370 an integrate that is rated to 1kilowatt at 1ohm. You tell us which amp you liked better. For me with the speakers I used back then the Nad was grating disc after disc compared to the tubes. The Nad may be more accurate - if so they need to change the definition IMO. Your opinion may be the exact opposite.

[92135011]

I have heard that some companies have designed integrated an auto-bias thing onto their tube amps. Don't know if this is true though. Probably costs a lot more than normal tube amps even if it is, so as a starter system, it's probably not a good idea.

[topspeed]

You knew that was coming, right guys? LOL

[FLZapped]

I need to determine why I would or would not want tube or solidstate. Any comments?


Well, tubes generate far more heat, making them way less energy efficient. (You pay for it twice if you have air conditioning) They usually have more distortion, lower damping factors, higher noise floors. Otherwise, they are great.

-Bruce :p

[skeptic]

They are also far less reliable. The MTBF (mean time between failure) of a well made solid state amplifier is far greater than the MTBF for a well made tube amplifier. They also don't start to deteriorate as soon as you turn them on. The most unstable performer I can think of is a tube amplifier with no feedback. You'd wonder if it would ever perform the same way twice. BTW, IMO, the main shortcoming of any tube amplifier is the output transformer. Contrary to the claims of the author of the poorly written paper in PCTower's thread about must read, eddy current and hysterisis losses as well as imperfect mutual transconductance coupling is the major reason why tube amplifiers have their characteristeric sound. And except for the rare OTL Futterman clones such as NYAL they all have it.

[bturk667]

What kind of tube or solid state equipment are you intrested in? Are talking about an amp, linestage, or both?

[Geoffcin]

I need to determine why I would or would not want tube or solidstate. Any comments?

Well I don't smell any smoke yet but here it goes;

The only way YOU can determine whether you want tube or SS is to listen for yourself.

I will tell you though that your not going to find any tube gear in the BestBuy/Circut City type stores to demo, while you may find some decent SS gear there.

[RGA]

You see there is so much misinfromation because most people have not heard tubes in 20+ years and this thread is obvious.

Yes there are tube amps that require no biasing whatsoever. My tube headphone amp for one. It can also be used as a preamp because it is so quiet that you can run a 1/4 pin to RCA jack adapter cord ($10.00 at radio Shack and gold plated to boot).

Then there are in fact No feedback SET amps from Audio Note which have a different kind of tube with a gauranteed life of 100,000 hours or 11 years 24 hours a day. No biasing required all Single ended.

The supposedly low powered amps with their speakers will make you plenty deaf and will dig down to 12hz without a sub -6db provided they're placed in corners - with absolutely impeccable distortion numbers.

The $99.00 Wave 8 monoblocks from ASL require no biasing either - nor did their $300.00 matching premap. Actually to save money people recommend the $149.00 Bottle Head Foreplay KIT. So for $347.00 you could get into tubes and monoblock separates no less. The 8s are no longer made because that was more a stunt to get the ASL name out there....but some dealers still have some. They did a nice job of driving the $15,000.00 flagship Tannoys. But my dealer replaced the Tannoys, Martin Logan and B&W top of the lines because none of them could compete with Audio Note. It would seem all the advertising in the world and desiner looks can't match a listening session.

[DMK]

It would seem all the advertising in the world and desiner looks can't match a listening session.

Likewise, all the measurements in the world can't match a listening session... unless music is less important to someone than blindly following the numbers.

[Arch]

I haven't been playing around with gears for that long, but I have already noticed that tube amps are rising in popularity once again (according to a couple of dealers).

One contributing factor is the invasion of "cheap" tube amps from Asia - mostly from China. 30wpc units selling for around $1000 - $2000 cdn, their looks ranges from decent to gorgous, and sounds really, really good.

My main audio pimp sells one of these "cheapie" unit that is cloes to $1200, and on average he moves 2 every week....

Reliability aside (I doubt these companies carry warranties - but a good reliable shop will usually offset that), I wonder if any of you folks have thoughts / experiences with these bargins.

[RGA]

Antique Sound Labs is a Chinese maker that has been around since aroun 1990.

Their amplifiers come with 5 year warranties. Name me a receiver maker that has a 5 year warranty? Why can't SONY offer a five year warranty?

Ahh that's right - their solid state stuff is completely indferior in every way...build quality and certainly sound quality.

It would seem most people who actually listen to the gear would far rather put up with minor inconveniences if they get better sound and value.

My dealer has begun once again carrying tubes and he was the one who hated tubes in the early to late 1980s...they have improved dramatically are reasonably priced and they get carried.

[skeptic]

Before you get too absorbed in the love fest the mutual admiration society of vacuum tube amplifier fans are holding, it's time to interject a little reality.

Whether you are a tube fan or not, it is a fact that you would be hard pressed to find another area of electronics where the preferences of at least some of the users flies in the face of the way most of the engineers and manufacturers see it and the prevalent theories they learn and use to create their products. Many tube proponents have rejected all of the engineering design criteria and performance meausrements engineers use to judge the performance of audio equipment because they say that it doesn't correlate with what they hear. So the market for tube amplifiers which was nearly dead for most of the last 40 or so years has been rekindled by a niche looking for what most main stream manufacturers would call esoteric products. However, the big boys, the ones who used to actually manufacture the tubes themselves, RCA, GE, Sylvania, even Telefunken have never gone back into the business of making them. There have been no new vacuum tube designs in about 40 years. Many of the people who manufacture these tubes now are of highly dubious skill in making precision parts that consistantly perform properly. Furthermore, most of the designs, the claims of the manufacturers not withstanding are old reworked versions of designs known 40, 50, even 60 years ago. At best they have been reworked or tweaked to a minor degree. The kind of parts which were so common for manufacturing tube sets 50 years ago such as electrolytic capacitors with very high voltage ratings, transformers with suitable windings for biasing vacuum tubes must now be procured from a relatively small source because the rest of the electronics industry has retooled and these once common parts are now exceedingly rare and costly.

You buy at your own risk. There are thousands of products currently out there. Many thousands more if you consider all of the older discontinued models. If you are a true died in the wool audiophile, one can almost guarantee that whatever you buy you sooner or later won't like it and when the novelty wears off, you will become disillusioned and look for something else to buy in its place. Very few are entirely happy for any extended time with what they already own. Another objective truth is that the nirvana they seek rarely if ever exists.

The fact is that vacuum tubes begin to deteriorate from the minute they are first turned on due to the heat. Normally they age so slowly that the decline in their performance is imperceptable. However, this depends to a certain extent on negative feedback which compensates for these changes among other things. But many new amplifier designers have rejected negative feedback because it is not in their lexicon of what sounds good.

The purchase of a low power class A vacuum tube amplifier will necessarily restrict you to a small segment of the speaker market where efficiency is a major concern. That or you will have to adjust your expectations to modest volume levels. Depending on your musical tastes, and the size and acoustics of your listening room, this may or may not be OK.

The high end rolloff exhibited by many vacuum tube amplifiers because of the limitations of their output transformers may be useful in offsetting the shrill sounding loudspeakers audiophiles initially prefer especially since they have rejected equalizaton, driver level controls, tone controls and filters, and all other manner of modifying the frequency response of audio systems. The only other method they accept is to look for wires with bizzarre inductance/capacitance characteristics which also act as filters of one sort or another.

Cavaet Emptor, buyer beware.

[Geoffcin]

Tubes are like the Sushi of the audio world. Some people love them, others think the're just bait.

For me a good tube amp is like an old jag; fun to drive but you would want to live with one.

Give me a Z06 Corvette anyday!

[RGA]

one not to add to Skeptic's statements. First 10 watts is enough to drive 90+% of the speakers available.

The fact is 88db 8ohm is a sensitive speaker. 90db is loud 2 watts will get you 90db at meter. 10 to be on the safe side.

Also tubes today are consider far more reliable despite being made in more dubious countries Tube prices are dirt cheap http://www.thetubestore.com/

BTW - I'm not a blind tube follower because I myself went SS even though I was in the market for tubes...it's a case by case basis - it just happened to be that a tube based system is the best system I have heard over way more costly SS based systems.

Some people will spend $250,000.00 on sports car someone else will spend on a classic car some on a luxury car and some are green peace folk who will take the bus...the latter probably has the most powerful engine is sorta like a chauffer to boot. It's personal preference and perception.

What's lost is the music most good systems of either design will do a good job of getting the music across. The rest is nitpicky minutae.

[DMK]

"you would be hard pressed to find another area of electronics where the preferences of at least some of the users flies in the face of the way most of the engineers and manufacturers see it and the prevalent theories they learn and use to create their products."

Very true. Some tube amps sound that way - colored, rolled off, soft bass. Many don't.

"There have been no new vacuum tube designs in about 40 years."

And there are untold numbers of new transistor designs in the last 20 years, or at least that's the impression I get from your statement. Fact is, amps are amps and are basically differentiated by sound and/or by their driving components, not by some
earth shattering new design.

"If you are a true died in the wool audiophile, one can almost guarantee that whatever you buy you sooner or later won't like it and when the novelty wears off, you will become disillusioned and look for something else to buy in its place. "

That's true of SS fans as well... or of a collector of just about anything.

"Another objective truth is that the nirvana they seek rarely if ever exists."

I agree. But many of them feel they take a step closer with each upgrade. Not all audiophiles are dissatisfied. I own a tubed pre, a tubed power and a tubed headphone amp (formerly doing duty as an integrated). I've owned them all for at least 4 years, the head amp for almost 6.

"The fact is that vacuum tubes begin to deteriorate from the minute they are first turned on due to the heat. "

Please explain how transistors avoid wearing out and can you also speculate on what caused my old SS amp to die after a dozen years? There weren't hidden tubes in there, were there?

No one is arguing that tubes are a PITA or that they have other limitations in certain applications. Some tube amps suck. But many do not.

Many people purchase an amplifier to simply amplify the signal. If that's you, by all means purchase a solid state amp. But many other people want to buy the best sounding amp they can find. For those people, I would suggest they test out modern tubed amps before they decide. I hear of and personally know many, many people who have upgraded to tubes from SS. I know of not a single one who has gone the other way in the last 3 decades. That's a telling argument, IMHO, much more telling than some nebulous measurements or discussions about architecture.

[skeptic]

"Please explain how transistors avoid wearing out and can you also speculate on what caused my old SS amp to die after a dozen years? There weren't hidden tubes in there, were there? "

Transistors themselves don't wear out. If their crystaline structure breaks down even slightly, they will almost certainly undergo catastrophic failure. That is why manufacturers take the extraordinary precautions they do to protect them. When your amplifier failed, unless it was abused in some way, the failure was due to failure of another component. That it not to say that the initial failure didn't take out some transistors with it but that was not the primary cause. Capacitors are the most frequent culprits. Sometimes the power transformer fails. I just had an equalizer lose a power transformer after 20 years of reliable service and no replacement is available.

I personally gave up on tube amplifiers around 1968. I got tired of their less than clear sound. I've heard some very good tube amplifiers such as NYAL but I have no intention of going back to tubes. I like many of the amplifiers most audiophiles reject and I'm thrilled that there are so many of them on the used market at giveaway prices. If you want an excellent amplifier for a two channel sound system, consider a used Marantz receiver of about 70 wpc or greater in mint condition. You will get a very reliable piece of equipment that performs excellently by most people's standards for a fraction of the cost of a new unit on nominally comparable power.

[DMK]

"Please explain how transistors avoid wearing out and can you also speculate on what caused my old SS amp to die after a dozen years? There weren't hidden tubes in there, were there? "

Transistors themselves don't wear out. If their crystaline structure breaks down even slightly, they will almost certainly undergo catastrophic failure. That is why manufacturers take the extraordinary precautions they do to protect them. When your amplifier failed, unless it was abused in some way, the failure was due to failure of another component. That it not to say that the initial failure didn't take out some transistors with it but that was not the primary cause. Capacitors are the most frequent culprits. Sometimes the power transformer fails. I just had an equalizer lose a power transformer after 20 years of reliable service and no replacement is available.

I personally gave up on tube amplifiers around 1968. I got tired of their less than clear sound. I've heard some very good tube amplifiers such as NYAL but I have no intention of going back to tubes. I like many of the amplifiers most audiophiles reject and I'm thrilled that there are so many of them on the used market at giveaway prices. If you want an excellent amplifier for a two channel sound system, consider a used Marantz receiver of about 70 wpc or greater in mint condition. You will get a very reliable piece of equipment that performs excellently by most people's standards for a fraction of the cost of a new unit on nominally comparable power.

So if I read you correctly, you're saying that both tube and transistor amps can have reliability issues, a statement to which I agree.

I have little doubt, based on the ones I've heard, that tube amps from 1968 had less than clear sound. But I find the gap between modern tube amps and SS amps being bridged, particularly over the last 5 or so years. A good tube amp sounds more similar to a good SS amp than different, the main difference being in a sonic quality that I can only describe as "life", which the tube amp usually has and the SS amp doesn't. But that's just me.

Thanks for the advice on Marantz - I currently own a Marantz pro CD recorder and after literally thousands of copies (I archived some 800 pre-recorded cassette tapes to CDR, not to mention several CD copies and a few LP's), it's still going strong. But my next foray into the equipment ranks will likely be surround sound for music, should SACD take off... or whatever format comes out in surround. I've liked what I've heard so far but I need to coax the manufacturer of my speakers into making a center channel. So far, he's being difficult....

[skeptic]

"So if I read you correctly, you're saying that both tube and transistor amps can have reliability issues"

In Pilot Radio's first foray into solid state, every amplifier they shipped out blew up after eight hours of use. At one point, according to my sources, they were coming back faster than they were going out.

Didn't you read the thread some months back about someone's Krell amplifier which kept blowing up. They'd fix it, return it and after playing OK for a while would blow up again. The output stage kept failing. Finally the problem was traced to a cracked electrolytic capacitor. Often, a component failure causes a cascading series of events. Unless you get to the root cause, it can and usually does happen again. There is no known aging process for transistors themselves. The atoms are locked tightly in their crystal matrices and are not likely to drift around. Absent damaging effects of excessive heat or ionizing radiation, transistors should have no problem lasting for hundreds of years. Of course simulations, tests, and mathematical analysis can only predict what will happen, the real test is the test of time.

Tubes begin deteriorating from the moment they are made. Even with no use, the glass envelope will allow some air to enter very slowly and it will ultimately be significant over an extended period of time. The "getter" inside some tubes will only absorb so much. Before vacuum tubes were installed in repeaters in the Atlantic Cable, they had to prove themselves reliable by giving 25 years of continuous service without a problem. I don't have any statistical info but many tubes fail for the same reason transistors fail and that is because another component failed first. However, because of the enormous heat generated by tubes, this is far more likely over an extended period. Users of tube amplifiers are encouraged to test and replace the output tubes periodically. Once upon a time, this was a minor inconvenience but today, many of these tubes are very expensive.

Beware the Chinese made KT 88. My reports from friends a few years back were that they did not perform well. That may have changed since. You are now forced to buy tubes which may have been made in Russia or Serbia. Svetlana is one source commonly used. Luckily for audio fans, electronics technology in the USSR lagged about 30 years or more behind the US.

Most tube amplifiers of the past didn't take kindly to operating without a connected load. I don't know what the situation is today but I wouldn't be surprised if it is still true. On the other hand, opearating a ss amp without a load is not a problem.

[topspeed]

of your rather passionate debate, but has anyone else noticed that our esteemed thread starter has yet to chime in on this?

Why are you guys even bothering?

Geez, we go 'round and 'round with this thing every couple of months, like Skep noted, and for what? Because you like to debate?

This topic is as inane as the planar/'stat vs. dynamic or acoustic suspension vs. bass reflex debates.

[92135011]

Topspeed,
What's even more is that it sounds almost exactly like the other debates.
Similar comments. Similar evidence. Similar everything.

[skeptic]

What is arcane or esoteric in many hobbies is often fun. It makes the people who shop for them, buy them, sell them, use them, admire them, feel that they have made a discovery and are among the priveleged insiders who know where the real gems are burried. In a world where mass production means low cost and limited production or merely finding and restoring antiques means high cost, the fancy pricetags associated with this class of products can be considerable and nobody wants to feel or admit that they have been had. You can call people today almost anything and they often won't even flinch at the worst insults but suggest that they are stupid and their blood will boil.

Vacuum tubes, vinyl phonograph records, class A amplifiers, high efficiency horn speakers, moving coil phonograph cartridges, these things have been around in one form or another for 50, 60, even 70 years but most were long forgotten by all but a few until their recent revival. Throw in some exotic cables and you have a perfect description of the modern audiophile's high end sound system. They cling to it like a religion and heaven help you if you say anything bad about any of it.

[DMK]

[QUOTE=topspeed]

Why are you guys even bothering? [/QUOTE

Because some else might be reading the thread, as you did. That someone might read one side of the issue and be swayed without knowing the whole issue. If you feel it's "inane", I'm afraid you don't have much of a grasp of the issue. Yes, tubes and solid state amps are a preference. But it is not true that one is "right" or accurate and the other wrong and inaccurate. That's the part I'm debating. I will certainly never convince Skeptic of anything but perhaps a newbie to tubes will take note.

If this debate is a problem for you, please feel free to skip over it. It's a public board and you're free to read or not read whatever you like.

[topspeed]

That someone might read one side of the issue and be swayed without knowing the whole issue. If you feel it's "inane", I'm afraid you don't have much of a grasp of the issue.
You assume too much. Do you know what happens when someone assumes too much? You make an ass out of you and umption. If someone has the temerity to believe one opinion over another without exercising enough diligence to form one for themselves, then they get what they deserve. This thread was started by a sh*t stirrer. You've been around long enough to recognize that there is no right or wrong answer to this query. Only opinion. Think about it,
"why I would or would not want tube or solidstate Are you kidding?! Let's do the Ford vs. Chevy or Yankees vs. Redsox while we're at it (I'd do Dodgers vs. Giants but let's face it, the Dodgers suck...and I'm a fan!). Here's an idea: buy whatever sounds best to you.


Yes, tubes and solid state amps are a preference. But it is not true that one is "right" or accurate and the other wrong and inaccurate. That's the part I'm debating. I will certainly never convince Skeptic Exactly.


perhaps a newbie to tubes will take note Only if they weren't completely disenfranchised with this "discussion" many threads ago.


If this debate is a problem for you, please feel free to skip over it. It's a public board and you're free to read or not read whatever you like. Hey, I've said it many times before that I learn more from these sites than any mag. I just don't find any value in a debate based on personal preference and perceptions.

For the record, I don't lean one way or the other in this matter. I just buy what sounds best to me regardless of how it's made. Novel approach, huh?

[DMK]

You assume too much. Do you know what happens when someone assumes too much? You make an ass out of you and umption. If someone has the temerity to believe one opinion over another without exercising enough diligence to form one for themselves, then they get what they deserve. This thread was started by a sh*t stirrer. You've been around long enough to recognize that there is no right or wrong answer to this query. Only opinion. Think about it, Are you kidding?! Let's do the Ford vs. Chevy or Yankees vs. Redsox while we're at it (I'd do Dodgers vs. Giants but let's face it, the Dodgers suck...and I'm a fan!). Here's an idea: buy whatever sounds best to you.

Exactly.

Only if they weren't completely disenfranchised with this "discussion" many threads ago.

Hey, I've said it many times before that I learn more from these sites than any mag. I just don't find any value in a debate based on personal preference and perceptions.

For the record, I don't lean one way or the other in this matter. I just buy what sounds best to me regardless of how it's made. Novel approach, huh?

Assume? You must be joking! It happens all the time around here! Yes, I've been around long enough to have read such posts for years. Someone asks a question and gets a one sided answer that they blindly follow. Yes, they get what they deserve. So let's give them both sides and then what they deserve is balanced. Another novel approach, no? If YOU learn more from this site than any mag, why are you denying that learning to others that perhaps don't have the foresight you have to seek out both sides of the issue?

You're right; a debate based on personal preference and perceptions is worthless. So let's take the tube/solid debate down to its essence and strip away the gloss. The debate on one side is that tubes are euphonic, colored, with bloated bass, rolled off highs and high distortion numbers. This side of the debate is based on numbers and pre-conceived notions. When someone with seemingly a lot of technical expertise but no listening experience spouts it, it becomes believable to newbies. then they scratch tubes off their list without ever taking the time to audition some and discover if they can use your approach and find out which sounds best. It's a fallacy called Poisoning The Well. And it happens (and is effective) all the time. Oh, and it works both ways. I could post that measurements in audio don't matter and people might believe it. If you doubt that, take a looks at the cable debate! When enough people believe a one sided story, they buy $3000 interconnects. And btw, Yankees vs Red Sox might be an interesting debate with all the deals those two have won and lost this year. :)

[skeptic]

" I will certainly never convince Skeptic of anything "

Since I am convinced by facts, not personal preferences, apparantly you won't.

In the debate between tubes and solid state, I have said many times that there are excellent examples and horrible examples of both. I stick with the observation of my experience which confirms my understanding of how both types work that at their very best, the best solid state amplifiers outperform the best tube amplifiers. What does outperform mean? They not only test better but they sound better. And as for the "average" solid state versus the "average" tube amplifier, I have had the same experience.

What does sound better mean? Clearer, wider range, better able to get the most accurate sound out of most of the speakers they are connected to. If other people have a different opinion or experience, that's fine with me. I don't sell this stuff and these are merely machines, not a religion to me. I also have no position on whether the best rotary engine would outperform the best reciprocating piston engine although I note that most serious auto racing mechanics and drivers choose the later.

[topspeed]

I also have no position on whether the best rotary engine would outperform the best reciprocating piston engine although I note that most serious auto racing mechanics and drivers choose the later.

Well, the main problem is that rotary's have a problem with torque production which limits the drive out of the corners. To offset that, they are lighter, smaller, and it's easier to extract better hp/cc numbers out of them. Does this offset the better torque and "racing characteristics" of pistons? It did at the '91 Le Mans. Unfortunately, after that Mazda withdrew from big time int'l racing. Rumor at the time was the 787b was to be replaced with a 5 rotor if I remember right (it was awhile ago). Hmmm, coulda been interesting...

As for the topic, here's a completely unbiased and objective answer:

Solid State: easier to maintain, not as sexy as glowing tubes (yes, even JRG amps look dowdy next to a Hovland), good ones can be practically bullet proof with little or no attention.

Tubes: require more owner interaction, more succeptable to damage if tubes are left uncovered, not as prevalent as ss amps thereby limiting choices to a some degree, good ones can be practically bullet proof but will require attention.

That's it.

BTW, the Yanks are the evil empire :)

[skeptic]

"Well, the main problem is that rotary's have a problem with torque production which limits the drive out of the corners."

All gasoline engines have torque problems or they wouldn't need a transmission, an inefficient klunky contraption of gears, bands, valves, and a lot of other complicated parts which can be remarkably reliable after a hundred years of development. OTOH, you want low end torque, get a compound or series wound motor and drive it from a generator driven by an engine at its optimum speed. You'll get all the low end torque you can stand.

Bullet proof? Nothing is bullet proof. I've met plenty of people who can find a way to wreck just about anything. And the most talented of them can do it on the first attempt without even trying. "Hey look at this part that just came off in my hand. What does that do?" "What happens if I push this button like this???? Oops! Sorry!!! Why didn't you tell me before it did that???"

[DMK]

[QUOTE=skeptic]" I will certainly never convince Skeptic of anything "

Since I am convinced by facts, not personal preferences, apparantly you won't.QUOTE]

Touche. But I wasn't aware that reliability was a personal preference.

[RGA]

Just a note at least about class A. If the best SS amp is indeed Krell then why is it class A. If McIntosh makes the best SS amp why is their best amp a Tube? Why do so many Bryston owners clue in and buy tubes...more to the point why does the reverse not happen. Admittedly the sample is Audio Asylum...or posters here. But it sure does SEEM like this is the case.

Ahh we all love that lush midrange...is it adding or does the bryston subtract? Makes no difference if the former sounds better.

And which sounds beter is subjective - those sure are not objective facts.

[E-Stat]

I personally gave up on tube amplifiers around 1968. I got tired of their less than clear sound.
Given your love of classical music, that is a shame. Virtually all of the best tube amps available today were developed after '68. Practicality is not thy name, but to these ears, there are sonic advantages. That has been my experience since '81 when I purchased my first ARC preamp. Given that the circuit designs haven't radically changed and the tubes themselves haven't evolved, what has changed? Quite a bit.

1. Higher quality passive parts including lower noise resistors, better capacitors, better connectors, better wire.
2. Better transformers for those that are not OTL.
3. Much larger and stiffer power supplies. My pair has 1000 joules.
4. High power designs required by many speaker designs are now common.

While I'll concede the top end to solid state designs, from there downwards there are tube amps that match or beat the best SS designs I've heard. Bass? You bet. My VTLs have better punch than my Threshold Stasis. More importantly, it has better harmonic resolution on upper bass material like concert drum and tympani. You can discern details like the size of the mallet used. The Joule OTL amps are better still. The midrange is owned by tube designs, IMHO. Massed strings are reproduced with the full harmonic richness and "rosin" of the real thing.

I tried a trick suggested by a poster over at AA that was supposed to make my SS design sound like the tube. He suggested putting a resistor in series with the speaker cable. While that did have a subtle tonal effect, in no way did that magically give the Threshold the kind of midrange purity that the VTL has.

Tubes are relatively expensive, a pain to maintain, and clearly not for everyone. I'm still anxiously awaiting a SS design to change my mind. I'm told the Pass XA-160 and the big GamuT amps come the closest. I would very much like to hear them.

rw

[skeptic]

"1. Higher quality passive parts including lower noise resistors, better capacitors, better connectors, better wire.
2. Better transformers for those that are not OTL.
3. Much larger and stiffer power supplies. My pair has 1000 joules.
4. High power designs required by many speaker designs are now common."

Except for #2 because solid state amplifiers don't usually have output transformers, the same can be said for solid state equipment too. Installing a resistor in series with the output reduces the effective amplifier damping factor (adversely) altering the bass response on some speakers. It will not alter the other factors which cause solid state and tube amplifiers to make loudspeakers sound different.

Bob Carver once boasted that given 24 hours, he could make any amplifier sound like any other amplifier by changing its "Transfer Function." Transfer function is a fancy term electrical engineers use which loosely translated into english means frequency response. I think he was right. Most if not all of the subtle differences between many amplifiers can be compensated for in this way. (BTW, Carver designed and sold both ss and tube amplifiers.)

OK, here's a trick you CAN use to make some judgements about amplifiers which comes from old time engineers. Listen to an amplifier playing at very low volume. Use efficient speakers for this test if possible. Put your ear right up to the speaker. This keeps the signal near the zero crossing point for class AB amplifiers and you may be able to detect crossover notch distortion in either transistor or tube amplifers. In good designs, this can be corrected by adjusting the bias current. In poor designs, you are just stuck with it. The best method is to use a distortion analyzer but if you don't have one, the manufacturer's instructions for adjusting it can be used. Unfortunately, this doesn't usually come with the equipment, only the service manual has it and you often need to be a technician to make use of it.

Since the same tube designs used in the 60s are used today, the circuit possibilities have not changed much. There is really nothing new under the sun. A KT88 is still a KT88 and a 12AX7A is still a 12AX7A. You can push the tubes harder to get more power out of them but that's nothing new. Transformer iron such as supermalloy were well know in the 50s and 60s and audio output transformers were once mass produced. Today, they are far fewer and further between. Does changing all of the parts in a vacuum tube design help? Better power supplies could. As for the others, maybe yes, maybe no. IMO, the best vacuum tube amplifiers will have solid state power supplies. NYAL gave an extensive presentation at the NY chapeter of the AES in 1983 and while bringing Futterman's tube design up to then contemporary standards, there was no doubt that they would use a ss power supply to optimize it.

[E-Stat]

Bob Carver once boasted that given 24 hours, he could make any amplifier sound like any other amplifier by changing its "Transfer Function."
Except of course for his Silver 7 tube amps. His reply during an interview was he got "close as possible".



You can push the tubes harder to get more power out of them but that's nothing new.
Or choice "B", use more of them.



Does changing all of the parts in a vacuum tube design help?
The answer would be yes. If you don't think capacitors have a "sound" then replace any signal caps with electrolytics and get back with me.


IMO, the best vacuum tube amplifiers will have solid state power supplies.
Many current tube designers like Luke Manley of VTL share that belief.

rw

[skeptic]

"Many current tube designers like Luke Manley of VTL share that belief."

While the audible effects of signal processing through vacuum tubes versus various types and configurations of transistors can be debated endlessly, the superiority of the solid state diode over vacuum tube diodes is beyond dispute. The use of vacuum tube diodes for some new retro vacuum tube amplifiers is a marketing ploy rather than a real attempt to get the best technology has to offer, MikE's opinion of his "Moth" amplifier notwithstanding.

[E-Stat]

The use of vacuum tube diodes for some new retro vacuum tube amplifiers is a marketing ploy rather than a real attempt to get the best technology has to offer...
I can offer zero in the way of any technical explanation, but here's one right stuff engineer who would disagree and is not usually subject to stylish whims:

<img src="http://www.audioresearch.com/images/Bill.jpg">

It would be interesting to hear Bill Z. Johnson's commentary since only the big Reference Audio Research amps use tube rectification. Having said that, the two best tube amps in my experience, the VTL Wotans and the Joule Electra Rite of Passages, both use SS regulation.

rw

[hifitommy]

I need to determine why I would or would not want tube or solidstate. Any comments?
some of both are better than the other. there are reasons for liking each and distortion isnt one of them. thats a common BS misconception just as the one that vinyl is a distortion. pardon me while i cough. KAKAKABULLLSHOT!!

every time there is a sound that some cant attribute to a good or bad reason, they say its a distortion. ya, like sacd is a distortion over rbcd?! i don tink so! more pleasing to the human ear is that which is closer to reality. uuuuuuuuuuuuh, LESS distortion.

when i switched to my arc preamp, things didnt get WARMER and slower or rolled off. they got wider in dynamic range, frequency response, and more tonally accurate. this is a 1979 design (SOTA at that time)and i was not expecting the results i got. now, coupled with my adcom 555II amp, i am quite happy but if i could have some VTL or arc amps of about 100wpc i would be happy to go that way. got money?

tube maintenance: $2-10/tube. how much for transistors when they fail? ever price a transistor amp failure repair? i have ($300). tubes can be removed and replaced by your child. not so with transistors.

sub outputs/bass management-out of your hands and int the hands of those that dont know your equipment. xover points and MONO bass of someone else's priorities. youve gotta buy the woofer THEY had in mind.

" vacuum tubes begin to deteriorate from the minute they are first turned on " and ss doesnt deteriorate at all "from the minute they are first turned on "? what a convenient thought.

"Transistors themselves don't wear out. If their crystaline structure breaks down even slightly, they will almost certainly undergo catastrophic failure" HMMMMMMM?!

[rb122]

every time there is a sound that some cant attribute to a good or bad reason, they say its a distortion. ?!

Either a distortion or you never heard it at all! :)

I'm certainly no scientist but I can buy into the measurements as a barometer for good sound. I can NOT buy into measurements as the final word in everything that is heard ... oh, unless it's a distortion that's heard. If tubes and vinyl are distorted products, then live music is distorted. If solid state and CD are accurate to the recording, then the recording is not accurate to live music. Or, more likely, we just don't measure everything there is to measure in order to explain how music is reproduced.

[E-Stat]

Or, more likely, we just don't measure everything there is to measure in order to explain how music is reproduced.
Bingo.

rw

[RGA]

Quite simply if it has that accurate sound...you know the type of sound that people say has a bit of etchiness common to a Bryston mated with a metal tweeter. If adjectives come out like check out the accuracy of these babies. Then guess what? It's not accuracy. You don't go to a live event saying check out the accuracy of that cymbol. Added grain is often noted as accurate because it sounds like added sparkle. Problem is so much of it sounds like this today that people don't have a proper refernece.

Hfitommy. You'll be interested in the latest issue (#69) of UHF where they discuss SS and Tubes Page 21 "The Return to Tubes".

There is one VTL Tube amp that is 400 watts has a defeatable digital display that tells you the operating parameter of the tubes, the temperature of the amp, how long they've been used, it self biases between EVERY track...and as an additional bonus if one shuts off during play it disabless a tube on the other channel to keep everything in balance so you have no down time. It's called the VTL S-400. The thing can also be connected to your computer to have the read out on there instead of the unit itself. No price but you can bet it's up there.

They also review several Tube amps and those gorgeous Shanling power monoblocks. Interestingly Tubes are still being used in recording studios again and apparently the article indicates that for low impedence electrostatic speakers tubes are far superior than solid state.

I also liked their anaology of Yamah trying to build the fastest canoe in the world with their supercomputers and engineers...yet the handbuilt Cree without all that beat Yamaha's engineers and experts and computers and brain power with ease EVERY TIME. Yamaha then licensed the Cree technology - or lack there of. Tube amps have been getting better and better mixing the best of today's technology with Tubes of old.

[rb122]

Quite simply if it has that accurate sound...you know the type of sound that people say has a bit of etchiness common to a Bryston mated with a metal tweeter. If adjectives come out like check out the accuracy of these babies. Then guess what? It's not accuracy. You don't go to a live event saying check out the accuracy of that cymbol. Added grain is often noted as accurate because it sounds like added sparkle. Problem is so much of it sounds like this today that people don't have a proper refernece.
.

From what I've read on this board, those who claim that solid state is "accurate" do so without benefit of listening tests but based on technical measurements. There are some exceptions, Skeptic being one. But these people don't strike me as the kind that say "check out this accuracy". They say check out the specs and the specs say it's accurate.

I am absolutely a subjectivist when it comes to the reproduction of music. It doesn't matter one whit to me how something measures but it is important how it reproduces music. This may sound pompous but with all the live music I'm exposed to being a musician who plays about 200 nights a year, I chose tubes to replicate that rather than solid state. I spent a great deal of time auditioning components before purchasing, simply because I have no intention of constantly upgrading so I wanted the best I could afford. The solid state units routinely did not provide the type of sound I would call "accurate". And the added grain of solid state doesn't sound like sparkle to me - it sounds like a coarse texture over the music, rendering it less than lifelike. The best solid state amps I auditioned (Sugden integrated, Klyne preamp) had less of this than the others. Krell, in particular because of the regard audiophiles have for this brand, disappointed me with their integrated althought their separates might be better. I heard the integrated and lost all interest in pursuing the chain. I even listened to some vintage gear. I was just about to buy something/anything because I was getting bored with the process when someone suggested I give tubes a try. I listened to 5 setups and decided on the Manley Stingray. It wasn't the best I heard but it was the best I could afford! :)

[E-Stat]

There is one VTL Tube amp that is 400 watts
It's called the Siegfried and runs a cool $40k pair. Luke Manley recently brought a pair to Atlanta to an audio club meeting. It was after hearing the even more powerful Wotans that I decided to purchase a pair of MB-450s. Luke told me that he had three independent design groups working on the project: one for the circuit design, one for the PCB board layout/packaging/cooling, and a third working on the computer aspects. Although I was unable to make a direct comparison, Luke says it is more transparent than the Wotans, especially on top.

http://www.vtl.com/pages/Amplifiers/Siegfried/

rw