H1n1

[ForeverAutumn]

People here are freaking out! Vaccination clinics have been overwhelmed. In Ontario, the first vaccination clinics opened yesterday. The public health department asked that only people in high risk categories show up for these clinics until Monday when they will open to the general public. However, thousands of people lined up yesterday for vaccinations, regardless of whether they were in one of the high risk groups. People stood in line for hours waiting their turn. No-one was turned away and, as a result, many high-risk people (myself included) are not yet able to get vaccinated.

Today, lines started hours before the clinics opened. But my understanding is that, today, clinics are sending people away if they are not in one of the high-risk categories, or giving them a time slot in which to return.

Many doctors are not administering vaccinations because they don’t want the hassle and are, instead, sending their patients to the clinics that are ill-prepared for the volumes of people showing up. The Public Health Dept. has underestimated the public paranoia.

Outside of the public clinics, those doctors who will administer the vaccination do not yet have the vaccine and are being told that they will receive it on Monday. I spoke with my doctor’s office and they are not confident that will be the case.

People with allergies to eggs, are being told to have the vaccine administered by their allergist. Egg allergies usually include asthma, which would put these people in a high-risk category. But allergists have not yet received the vaccine and don’t know when they will.

This potential pandemic seems to be causing pandemonium.

What’s the H1N1 situation where you are?

[nightflier]

Well there's a shortage, but I have some very big issues with the vaccine:

- My doctor's not taking it
- I read that the US vaccines are banned in Europe
- If you get the regular flu, your chances of getting swine is something like 10%
- The vaccine is only 40% effective
- H1N1 is now peaking, so it's about to decline
- Donald Rumsfeld retains a large amount of pharmaceutical industry stock including Gilead's, the company he was formerly a chairman of the board for.

I know that last point is purely political, but on principle, I can't bring myself to give one red cent to that scoundrel, especially for something as specious as this vaccine. Also note that it's the FoxNews and sensationalist conservative outlets that are spreading the most fear around about Swine flu. Anyhow, I spent my $45 on a new set of audio cables, and I'm sure that's a better investment.

Want to stay healthy? Here's the best things you can do:

- Sleep as much as you need to (boosts immune system)
- Drink plenty of clear fluids (clears out your system)
- Eat a balanced diet (yes, that's hard during the holidays)
- Wash hands a little more often than usual (carry Purell around, if you have to)
- Carry your own pen around and don't lend it out (keeps the germs from spreading)
- Spend time with loved ones (boosts immune system)
- Have fun, laugh and be merry instead of worrying (boosts immune system)

It's ironic that all the hoopla and fear mongering is actually making people sicker.

[JohnMichael]

I am not sure what is happening around here. I do not take the flu shots. I do know I have a roommate who every time he has a scratchy throat thinks he is getting the flu. :cryin:

When I worked in healthcare management we checked in with the CDC site daily to prepare for the bird flu. Some flus materialize and others do not. The paranoia always materializes.

[dean_martin]

A former high school teacher of mine who still keeps in touch gets his news from short wave radio and lives deep in the woods. He says that the h1n1 vaccine (injected form) contains mercury and one other component that will kill you. The form of the vaccine that goes up the nose is designed to spread the virus.

He claims there's evidence that the early 1930's Spanish Flu that became a world-wide pandemic broke out simultaneously in three places. Common to these three places was each had a US military base where flu "vaccines" were being developed and tested.

How's that for paranoia, folks? Have a great weekend.

[blackraven]

NF, where do you get your info? The H1N1 is the only flu going around right now, and while it is peaking, the numbers are still rising and we don't no when it is going to stop. In my emergency dept, we started seeing it in the spring and throughout the summer. We are seeing at least 10-20 new cases a day, all H1N1. My son and I had it 2 weeks ago. It is no worse than the normal flu and in fact it is milder in most cases. The problem with it is that children are dying from it and with the normal flu, it has typically been the old and debilitated that have died. In fact, each year, thousands of people die from the typical type A and B flu's.

And all you vaccine haters stop telling Bull Shyte about the flu vaccine. The vaccine is life saving for certain people and you may convince someone who really needs it into not getting it. The efficacy of the vaccine is much higher than 45% and it can also inpart partial immunity and lessen the severity of the illness. It has been up to 80% effective. Risk of serious injury of the vaccine is very low and the danger of dying from the flu or having a serious complication is thousands of times higher if not millions. Its the same with the pertussis vaccine. The risk of dying from that vaccine is 1 in millions but the risk of an infant dying from pertussis (whooping cough) is much, much higher. Our hospital administered the live intranasal flu vaccine to all employees that agreed to take it and we had no problems with the over 1000 employees who received it. The nasal vaccine is a live attenuated virus that does not give you the flu. For all you fkr's who think that vaccine's are bad for you, just google pictures of people with small pox and read up how virrulent devastating and deadly it was. Just think what it would be like to be permanently disabled by polio or die a horrible death from a simple cut on your finger from tetanus. And if you think that people don't die of tetanus these days, take a look at the statistics of those who die from it in third world countries.

Now I'm not advocating that people run out and get the vaccine, I'm just begging you to stop telling BS about them!

A few last comments about H1N1-
1-the big concern with it is will it mutate into a much more virrulent and deadly strain, the vaccine can partially protect you if it does.

2-if you come down with it, don't panic. Rest, drink plenty of liquids, take an over the counter cough medicine like Robitussin DM or the better tasting Delsm or Robitussin DM cough gels. If it doesn't have DM then it won't suppress your cough. Benadryl to dry up your post nasal drip will help with the cough. Take 2 extra strength tylenol and or 2 advil every 6 hours for fever and body aches. See your Dr. immediately for shortness of breath or intractable vomiting which we have been seeing occasionally with this flu that we don't typically see with the regular flu. (note that vomiting and diarrhea is not typical of the flu, that is usually an intestinal virus). Your fever should last about 3-5 days. You are contagious for another 8-10 days AFTER YOUR FEVER RESOLVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Symptoms of the flu are high fever, severe body aches, chills, sore throat, cough and congestion, occasional nausea or vomiting.

3-these are adult recommendations not for children.

4-tamilflu is only effective if started in the first 48hours at the onset of symptoms, beyond that it doesnt work. Tamiflu is not like a typical antibiotic. It may only lessen the symtoms and shorten the course by 1 day. It is expensive, about $85 and usually not coverd by insurance.
Up to 9-10% of patients that take it get nausea or vomiting from it.

I hope this helps!!!!!!!!!

[dakatabg]

That is bad! I work in a hospital and 3 days ago they got a new rule that people under the age of 18 are not allowed to visit the hospital because of the increase of the flu sick people.

[blackraven]

That is bad! I work in a hospital and 3 days ago they got a new rule that people under the age of 18 are not allowed to visit the hospital because of the increase of the flu sick people.

Yes, hospitals are asking you to stay home and not come to the ER if you have the flu. They are also trying to limit visitors so that they don't infect patients. We place a mask on any patient in the ER that we suspect has the flu. This is done in our triage area in the waiting room.

[thekid]

For those identified as the high risks groups they should probably get the vacination just as they should get flu shots every year. Other than that I think this somewhat a creation of the media. I am not saying that H1N1 does not exist or is not out there in certain areas in large numbers but I am saying that the flu and its variations comes around every year and kills tens of thousands of people. The media largey ignores "regular" flu season but when a new strain comes out with a name they can put their full 24-media hyping machines behind such the "Bird Flu", "Asian Flu" or now the "Swine Flu" they go nuts. Correct me if I am wrong but the "Swine Flu" has been unleashed before some 30 years ago in the mid-late 70's. We seemed to survive it then and I am sure that it will be the case now.

For those who like to sit and read about the world ending virus de jour I recommend a book called the "Hot Zone". Read that and you may never leave the house or have contact with another human..... :D There is a building in Reston VA. that sits vacant and is essentially quarrantined because a variation of the Ebola virus was discovered there. Read about that situation and you will see how a major population center in the US avoided a Ebola outbreak. The Ebola virus makes the flu seem like the sniffles.

[poppachubby]

For those identified as the high risks groups they should probably get the vacination just as they should get flu shots every year. Other than that I think this somewhat a creation of the media. I am not saying that H1N1 does not exist or is not out there in certain areas in large numbers but I am saying that the flu and its variations comes around every year and kills tens of thousands of people. The media largey ignores "regular" flu season but when a new strain comes out with a name they can put their full 24-media hyping machines behind such the "Bird Flu", "Asian Flu" or now the "Swine Flu" they go nuts. Correct me if I am wrong but the "Swine Flu" has been unleashed before some 30 years ago in the mid-late 70's. We seemed to survive it then and I am sure that it will be the case now.

For those who like to sit and read about the world ending virus de jour I recommend a book called the "Hot Zone". Read that and you may never leave the house or have contact with another human..... :D There is a building in Reston VA. that sits vacant and is essentially quarrantined because a variation of the Ebola virus was discovered there. Read about that situation and you will see how a major population center in the US avoided a Ebola outbreak. The Ebola virus makes the flu seem like the sniffles.

Here, here! Well said kid...

[audio amateur]

In England we are given precautionary advise (washing hand etc etc) but other than that I don't know what the vaccine situation is.
Generally people don't seem freaked out.

[ForeverAutumn]

...I recommend a book called the "Hot Zone". Read that and you may never leave the house or have contact with another human..... :D There is a building in Reston VA. that sits vacant and is essentially quarrantined because a variation of the Ebola virus was discovered there. Read about that situation and you will see how a major population center in the US avoided a Ebola outbreak. The Ebola virus makes the flu seem like the sniffles.

I read The Hot Zone years ago. I found it fascinating and terrifying.

[Feanor]

NF, where do you get your info? ...
And all you vaccine haters stop telling Bull Shyte about the flu vaccine....

I hope this helps!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the enlightenment, BR.

We hear a lot of the same old: if it's recommended, sponsored, or run by the government, it's GOT to be BAD!! ;)

[ForeverAutumn]

A few last comments about H1N1-...

I hope this helps!!!!!!!!!

blackraven, Thanks for that information. As mentioned in my post, I am in a high risk category due to asthma and other respiratory problems. If I so much as catch a mild cold, I can expect to be out with bronchial problems and on some pretty heavy duty medication for at least another six weeks. So the fact that H1N1 seems to hit people's respiratory systems, scares the hell out of me.

Having said that. I'm not joining in the paranoia and am just doing the same things that I always do to avoid getting sick. But your comments about symptoms being very mild for most people is reassuring. Thanks.

[blackraven]

theKid, the swine flu from years ago was a different strain. All swine flu means is that it infected pigs. There are different serotypes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_influenza

The reason that older people (those born after 1955 or so) are not high risk as with the typical flu is that most were exposed to an H1N1 flu in the past, before 1955. At least this is the current theory.

Sorry if I came off too strong to the people who don't believe in vaccines or the flu vaccine, but I feel strongly that we should not discourage people from getting the vaccine.

One last point about the flu. You are also contagious 3 days before you start to show symptoms of the flu! So you are looking at about 15 days that you are contagious. Thats why the vaccine is a good idea. Who can afford to take 15 days off work or school. So the cost of the flu is just not human life but it is also monetary

[thekid]

BR

No worries and please do not misconstrue my post as anti-vaccine. My main point was that the media is overhyping the situation. Flu season should always be treated seriously and people should always take the proper precautions. People who are at risk need and should get the vaccination.

[blackraven]

Ageed!!!!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thanks for the info blackraven. Very good advise.

So it looks like one post in this thread is, besides being politically motivated, spreading mis-information and should probably be deleted, don't you think mods?

[JohnMichael]

Thanks for the info blackraven. Very good advise.

So it looks like one post in this thread is, besides being politically motivated, spreading mis-information and should probably be deleted, don't you think mods?





Everyone has a right to their own opinion and everyone is free to do what is best for them. He even warns others that his one point is purely political. If every opposing opinion was deleted AR would be rather dull, me thinks.

[Auricauricle]

Nightflier: Your post smacks of good sense and a nice, hearty dose of humor that we all need nowadays. I would just add that as well as washing hands and drinking more fluids (even my beloved beer and coffee don't count), folks (especially those who provide medical services) ought to think twice about wearing the obligatory neck-tie. The transfer of germs via these deadly cravats has been demonstrated time and again, so take care before you dip over a sick patient in your silen splendor!

Raven: I appreciated your comments as well. I am getting mighty sick of folks coming down against vaccines, without giving credit for their amazingly successful record of lives saved and pandemics staved off. Unfortunately with fear mongering "news" programs and networks, as well as celebrities who know far more about science than they should, have done much disservice to earnest researchers who know better.

In all, though, I think FA summed the situation up best, with her comment: "This potential pandemic seems to be causing pandemonium". Better said was the dictum, "Paranoia will destroy ya". The best thing we can do is keep our heads on and help those who are losing theirs get themselves together.

I'm not sure how bad the level of hysteria and actual case load is looking in the local ER's and clinics around town. I do know a very large batch of vaccines that were to be made available locally was ruined when it was inadvertedly frozen. Still, the vaccine is being doled out to at-risk groups and health-care practioners.

Again, it's nice to know when the world is going nuts I can turn here for reasonable, rational, non-fanatical discourse.....;)

[Luvin Da Blues]

Swine Flu advice .......

If you wake up looking like this,

don't go to work!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Everyone has a right to their own opinion and everyone is free to do what is best for them. He even warns others that his one point is purely political. If every opposing opinion was deleted AR would be rather dull, me thinks.
I'm not asking for an opposing opinion to be deleted, I'm saying it's "mis-information" For example, if the numbers are still rising, how can it be "peaking"? Try not to let your emotions cloud your vision JM.

[JohnMichael]

Try not to let your emotions cloud your vision JM.


Insulting as always rich.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Right. And ignore the point of my post jm

[ForeverAutumn]

HEY! I started this thread to share information about H1N1. So far it's been very informative. If there is mis-information in one of the posts, it has provided the reason for blackraven to come in and refute it. I think that there is value in including both the myths and the truths. If one person is hearing or reading incorrect information then there are probably other misinformed people out there too. We are lucky enough to have some medical professionals on this forum who can provide us with the correct information and are kind enough to take the time to do so. If this thread can help to educate people then it is worth keeping in it's present form.

Rich, I've got to side with John. He didn't ignore the point of your post, you just didn't like his answer. Besides, the quote that you use to prove your point in post #21, isn't even from the post that you want deleted.

Now both of you go to your rooms for a time-out.

[Rich-n-Texas]

FA don't like me anymore! :cryin:

Irregardless, the only thing that may stop me from getting an H1N1 vaccine will be if I have to make the $20 copay at my Dr's office. At work I got the seasonal flu vaccine for free.

Nevertheless, I can't for the life of me get that "Try not to let your emotions cloud your vision" is an insult. Advice from one moderator to another is the way I see it.

[ForeverAutumn]

Swine Flu advice .......

If you wake up looking like this,

don't go to work!

But...that's what I look like everyday!

Where did you get that picture of me anyhow? :sosp:

[dakatabg]

Ha ha ha! Nice picture

[JohnMichael]

But...that's what I look like everyday!

Where did you get that picture of me anyhow? :sosp:



I must beg to differ. I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with ForeverAutmn in Chicago. She is lovely of face and beautiful of heart.

[Luvin Da Blues]

But...that's what I look like everyday!

Where did you get that picture of me anyhow? :sosp:


Before make up? LOL




She is lovely of face and beautiful of heart.:

After make up?

I'm sure FA is very lovely to look either way.

Here's a better pic of FA..... (In my mind anyway)

[poppachubby]

I must beg to differ. I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with ForeverAutmn in Chicago. She is lovely of face and beautiful of heart.

John, do you live in Chi-town? I come through every now and again. It's a hub for training in my industry, printing. My company has bought a state of the art 9 colour press from Heidelberg. I would expect to be in Chicago early next year. Perhaps I will hear Krell then...

[JohnMichael]

John, do you live in Chi-town? I come through every now and again. It's a hub for training in my industry, printing. My company has bought a state of the art 9 colour press from Heidelberg. I would expect to be in Chicago early next year. Perhaps I will hear Krell then...


No I live in central Ohio but you are welcome to visit. A group of us, from AR, met in Chicago and had a great time. Chicago would be a great place to live if I had a little more coin. Look it is my neighbor Oprah.

[nightflier]

I never advocated that high-risk people should not get the vaccine. I said I wasn't taking it and I listed these reasons:

- My doctor's not taking it

Like it or not, there are many doctors who aren't too crazy about the vaccine either. But the more important point is that the swine flu is simply another flu. It is not more dangerous or deadly. To aggrandize H1N1 to a different status is just hysteria. If you don't habitually take a flu vaccine, and you are in good health, then the H1N1 vaccine is probably equally unnecessary for you.

Let's also remember that the regular flu is far more deadly: "Since the pandemic began in April, more than 1,000 deaths from H1N1 have occurred, including about 100 children, and more than 20,000 hospitalizations in the United States, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The CDC estimates that about 36,000 people die of seasonal flu-related causes annually, although the number fluctuates."

Now, I also read that the swine flu is killing more infants and babies. This is because younger people have not yet been exposed to many flu viruses and are therefore more susceptible. So yes, children would definietly fall under the higher-risk category as well.

- I read that the US vaccines are banned in Europe.

Let's remember that not all of us reading this discussion live the US. I don't known how safe the vaccine is in Canada, but there are several reports of issues here in the US because of the toxic additives such as squaline in the American manufactured vaccines:

The H1N1 Vaccine Is A Much Greater Risk To Your Health Than The Flu Itself (http://preventdisease.com/news/09/080709_swine_flu_hype.shtml)

Thimerosal (about 1/2 of which is Mercury) is another concern:

Does the H1N1 vaccine contain mercury? (http://www.physorg.com/news172252051.html)

Although there are thimerosal-free vaccines out there, its availability is far scarcer than the H1N1 vaccine itself. Only a small percentage of mercury-free vaccine is available. What's more, the vaccines that are being exported are almost exclusively the thimerosal- laced variety.

...And do I even need to mention that the population that is being most pressured to accept the vaccine are children, i.e. those most susceptible to mercury poisoning?

This is why these products are having so much trouble being accepted in Europe:

Czech Republic Refuses Baxter Swine Flu Vaccine On Safety Grounds (http://marketaddicts.net/wordpress-mu/2009/10/16/is-the-flu-shot-safe-czechoslovakia-banned-the-vaccinejudge-delays-mandatory-vaccines/)

And the public in Europe is also not having it, either:

Europeans Reject Swine Flu Vaccine (http://www.doomdaily.com/2009/europeans-reject-swine-flu-vaccine/)

- If you get the regular flu, your chances of getting swine is something like 10%

Because of the close relationship between the viruses, if you have recently recovered from a regular bout with the flu, or you have been immunized against it, your risk to the swine flu is considerably reduced. I heard the 10% figure on the radio, but I could not find a similar number online. However, the Johns Hopkins Medical FAQ website states: "It's unclear at this time whether previous flu shots or having had the flu in the past will protect you. It may be that some partial protection may be provided by earlier shots or having had the flu."

- The vaccine is only 40% effective

This is an estimate and not enough data has come in yet to know for sure. I believe this was a cumulative figure, taking the other points I brought up into account as well. Last years' flu vaccine was not as effective as had been hoped, especially for adults: "the effectiveness of vaccines varies depending on the age group and underlying medical conditions. In general, seasonal flu vaccines are 70 to 90 percent effective, according to Dr. David Tayloe, president of the American Academy of Pediatrics. However, it is too early to determine the effectiveness of the H1N1 vaccine," according to the Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-swine-flu-questions-answers,0,6646081.story).

- H1N1 is now peaking, so it's about to decline

Well, that was not as precise as it was meant and requires a little more detail. The peak is next month, according to epidemiologists interviewed by the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/12/us/12flu.html)

But... it takes up to five weeks for a vaccinated person to become immune, according to the CDC (Newsweek (http://www.newsweek.com/id/214847)). So even if you were to get immunized today, you would only be immune as the epidemic begins to decline.


NF, where do you get your info?

Online, the radio, and the papers I have regular access to: LA & NY Times, Christian Science Monitor, Newsweek, local papers and my wife gets the Chronicle of Higher Ed. Is that enough?


And all you vaccine haters stop telling Bull Shyte about the flu vaccine. The vaccine is life saving for certain people and you may convince someone who really needs it into not getting it.

I'm not a vaccine hater, but I have serious issues with this vaccine, because of the way the illness is being hyped, because of the way many companies are rushing the product out the door, and because of the way that our drug industry puts profit above everything else. There are some serious problems with this vaccine, and it is my personal choice to not go stand in a long line to get a vaccine that is not very effective for me and has some serious side-effect for me. I am not a high-risk patient so I have a different risk-tolerance level than others, and that is my choice.

While this is not relevant to our discussion, I also have serious concerns about the government and the private sector forcing vaccines on citizens and employees. Apparently some of the employees at your work had the same concerns.


The efficacy of the vaccine is much higher than 45% and it can also inpart partial immunity and lessen the severity of the illness. It has been up to 80% effective.

You can't know that. The data isn't in yet.


Risk of serious injury of the vaccine is very low and the danger of dying from the flu or having a serious complication is thousands of times higher if not millions.

...for high-risk individuals.


For all you fkr's who think that vaccine's are bad for you, just google pictures of people with small pox and read up how virrulent devastating and deadly it was.

Nice choice of words. Anyhow, we're not talking about smallpox and its vaccine. We're talking about H1N1.


Now I'm not advocating that people run out and get the vaccine, I'm just begging you to stop telling BS about them!

I'm only relaying what I've read in pretty mainstream news sources. And yes, you are in effect, telling everyone to go out and get vaccinated. Not even the CDC is willing to do that. Didn't you say that your "big concern with it is if it will mutate into a much more virrulent and deadly strain" and that the "vaccine can partially protect you if it does?" so how is that not advocating that everyone gets vaccinated?


2-if you come down with it, don't panic. Rest, drink plenty of liquids, take an over the counter cough medicine like Robitussin DM or the better tasting Delsm or Robitussin DM cough gels. If it doesn't have DM then it won't suppress your cough. Benadryl to dry up your post nasal drip will help with the cough. Take 2 extra strength tylenol and or 2 advil every 6 hours for fever and body aches. See your Dr. immediately for shortness of breath or intractable vomiting which we have been seeing occasionally with this flu that we don't typically see with the regular flu. (note that vomiting and diarrhea is not typical of the flu, that is usually an intestinal virus). Your fever should last about 3-5 days. You are contagious for another 8-10 days AFTER YOUR FEVER RESOLVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Symptoms of the flu are high fever, severe body aches, chills, sore throat, cough and congestion, occasional nausea or vomiting.

Thank you for the advice, but the contagion period is actually 15 days, including 3 days before you even have symptoms. Unfortunately, there aren't many people who will be able or willing to take 15 days off from work. It's ironic that the best way to avoid the spread of the virus is through lack of contact, but our economic and social structure does not support such an approach at all. Businesses would come to a screeching halt - no wonder the vaccine is being pushed so hard. Maybe we should all stop screaming for a minute and think about that very important fact. There is more than one way to stop the spread of this virus, but only one that is A-OK for businesses: gota keep the people just healthy enough to keep slaving away, dumb, entertained, and most of all, scared.


I hope this helps!!!!!!!!!

So do I.

[poppachubby]

No I live in central Ohio but you are welcome to visit. A group of us, from AR, met in Chicago and had a great time. Chicago would be a great place to live if I had a little more coin. Look it is my neighbor Oprah.

I think for you it would be more like "Look it's my neighbour Oprah, please officer, loosen these cuffs." as Oprah positively identifies you as the guy who jumped over her gate.

[JohnMichael]

I think for you it would be more like "Look it's my neighbour Oprah, please officer, loosen these cuffs." as Oprah positively identifies you as the guy who jumped over her gate.



The only way I would jump her gate would be if Nate Berkus was visiting.

http://nateberkus.com/about.php

[poppachubby]

The only way I would jump her gate would be if Nate Berkus was visiting.

http://nateberkus.com/about.php

John, if I had to look at that chit eating grin everyday I'd be hangin from a chandelier. He has that certain "Je ne sais quoi I want to punch this guy"....lol. However, with a backing from Oprah I'm sure he is rolling in doe, and his bodyguards would make short work out of me. Whatever floats your boat my friend.

Hey I should have mentioned nice work with all of that spam. I found it really overwhelming to look at but I'm sure you've seen an "attack" like that before. Spam attack. The funny thing about german spam is you're no closer to understanding how to get Cialis at a premium. Having been to Germany on 2 occasions I can assure you, no Cialis is neccessary for those Frauleines. They get the Chubby special all natural baby!! (Don't tell my wife I said that)

I noticed tonight that if you drop your arrow on the greenies under someones name, it gives a silly message. I suppose I'm the only one who didn't know.

[blackraven]

NF, you totally missed my point. I'm not advocating that every one go out and get the flu vaccine, all I'm saying is that you should not discourage people from getting it based on myths, fears and extremely low risk of complications. Let me state it again, I'm worried that you could convince some one that needs that vaccine not to take it and that they could die from that mistake.

The reasons to get the H1N1 vaccine are if you are in a high risk group. It also helps with herd immunity, where you immunize enough of the population that it helps prevent the spread of the disease. But I guess your ok if nobody gets the vaccine and every one gets sick, some die or get permanently disabled, miss work, school, lose wages, sky rocket health care costs because of the visits to the Dr's office or Emergency Department.

And the regular flu what ever strain that might be right now because we havent seen it yet, will not convey any immunity to the H1N1 unless it is an H1N1 type.

And yes, the CDC is not recommending the vaccine to every one because of the shortage of the vaccine. Otherwise they would be recommendng it to all. They want to make sure enough is available to the high risk group and health care workers. And I totally agree with the CDC on this point. Taking a vaccine is a personal choice and I try not to push people into it. I just like for them to have the appropriate facts so that they can make an informed decision. And I am concerned as is the CDC that the flu virus can mutate into something more deadly. We are concerned about it every year that a flu virus can mutate into something more virulent and deadly and obviously it has with this virus which is more deadly to infants and children. And there is nothing wrong with advocating the flu vaccine. If every one got the vaccine, we would not have 36,000 people die each year from the flu (and yes, you got those numbers correct), but i guess your ok with that number of people dying. And let me reiterate again that the risk of dying or sustaining a life threatening complication of the disease is thousands of times if not millions of times greater than sustaining a serious complication from the vaccine.

Here's some vaccine info http://thefastertimes.com/clinicalupdate/2009/09/18/faqs-about-the-h1n1-vaccine/

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMoa0908535

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-10/27/content_8856605.htm


As far as mercury goes, we are exposed to more in our food supply, air and environment then the amount in a vaccine. I guess you don't eat fish which can contain high levels. AND THE H1N1 VACCINE IS A LIVE ATTENUATED VACCINE, IT IS INTRANASAL AND DOES NOT CONTAIN THIMEROSAL OR MECURY.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-laiv-h1n1.pdf

THE VACCINE DOES NOT TAKE 3 WEEKS TO CAUSE IMMUNITY, (AND SO WHAT IF IT TOOK 3WEEKS, THIS VIRUS IS GOING TO BE WITH US FOR A WHILE LONGER), BUT IT STARTS TO BE EFFECTIVE IN ABOUT 9-10DAYS.

THE PRELIMINARY DATA SHOWS THE VACCINE TO BE 70-90% EFFECTIVE SO FAR.

THERE HAVE NOT BEEN ANY SERIOUS COMPLICATIONS REPORTED FROM THE H1N1 VACCINE AND YOU ARE SPREADING UNTRUTHS ABOUT IT. YES. THE INJECTABLE VACCINES HAVE CONTAINED IT BUT THIS IS NOT INJECTABLE. THERE IS AN INECTABLE H1N1 VACCINE THAT DOES CONTAIN THIMEROSAL. THE INTRANASAL HAS BEEN THE ONE THATS BEEN GIVEN MOST. THE VACCINE FOR THE PLAIN OLD TYPE A FLU DOES CONTAIN IT AND THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANY WIDE SPREAD PROBLEMS REPROTED WITH THE INJECTABLE FLU VACCINE. THIMEROSAL HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN TO BE DANGEROUS!!
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/immunize/hcp/thimerosalfs.html
http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/thimerosal_qa.htm



Young children are dying from H1N1 not because they have not been exposed to an H1N1 type but because they have an over reactive immune system which without getting too much into the pathophysiology of it, causes an out pouring of immune reactive substances that causes fluid to leak out of the capillaries in the lung. This intern causes you to drown in your own body fliuds and you suffocate to death! ( This is what happened in the great flu epidemic in the early 1900's and 30 million people died!) So in effect, your own body's immune system is killing you. Some are also dying of myocarditis where the virus infects the heart muscle causing heart failure and circulatory collapse. Others die because it triggers heart attacks, renal failure, staphylococcal pneumonia as well as other types of secondary infections and over whelming sepsis and septic shock. Infact I had an 83 year old today with H1N1 that got admitted to the intensive care unit and probably won't survive.

So go believe what you want. I'm on the front lines seeing it every day, staying current and up to date.

Oh! one last rebuttal. I did say that the infectious period is about 15 days. Lets count, I said 3 days before symptoms start, and 8-10 days once yor fever resolves which is about 4-5 days after your first show symtoms. 3+4+8=15! (the CDC and our infectious disease physicians say its more like 10 days after your fever breaks that you are contagious which would really make you possibly contagious for close to 3 weeks but the ;public does not want to hear that)

Have a good day, stay healthy and cover your cough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smile5:

[ForeverAutumn]

John, if I had to look at that chit eating grin everyday I'd be hangin from a chandelier.

I think that's exactly what John was hoping for. ;)

Poppa, were you at the Print 09 conference in Chicago in September? If so, you were there the same time that we were!

[ForeverAutumn]

I must beg to differ. I have had the pleasure of meeting and spending time with ForeverAutmn in Chicago. She is lovely of face and beautiful of heart.

You're too sweet. :)

[poppachubby]

I think that's exactly what John was hoping for. ;)

Poppa, were you at the Print 09 conference in Chicago in September? If so, you were there the same time that we were!


No FA, I was here slugging it out with this new press, it took about a month and a half to put it together. Plus, all kinds of odds and ends had to be fab'd for it. What aspect of the biz are you guys into?

[dakatabg]

Hey poppachubby i live in Chicago

[poppachubby]

Hey poppachubby i live in Chicago

Well then it's settled dak, I'm comin to your place for a listening session buddy. Maybe buy some sweet vintage too...

[noddin0ff]

Just to add to blackraven's accurate and informative post, I'm going to quote from one of my colleagues.

"Effective vaccination is not about protecting you, it's about protecting other people from you.

To put it another way, the best way for you not to get influenza is to not come into contact with people who have it--and standing next to a vaccinated person dramatically decreases those odds." (http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2009/10/some_thoughts_on_teh_swiney_fl.php#more)

Now if you follow the link, be warned that Mike the Mad Biologist's politics and rhetoric are rabid liberal. BUT, his opinions, science, and statistics, especially in infectious disease are spot on. To further quote "Wash your damn hands!"

Step outside of yourself and pretend you are an at risk individual, someone elderly, immunocompromised, or for H1N1 very young. Your best defense against H1N1 is if those you interact with get vaccinated. Effective vaccination strategies are about herd immunity. You need a critical mass of immunized individuals in a population in order to prevent spread.

This isn't about you. This especially isn't about you if you are a typical healthy adult. You, in all likelihood, have nothing to fear from H1N1 other than some time off from work not feeling well. If you don't get a proven effective and safe vaccination for H1N1, you put others at risk. That's who this is about.

[nightflier]

Blackraven,

I think it is because you are on the front lines that you see the worst of this virus (and many more illnesses too). But what you see may not be what's happening in the world outside. If we were all virologists and ER doctors, confronted daily with the worst of what these illnesses bring, then we too would be paranoid. We likely wouldn't even leave our homes and we certainly would insist on every vaccine available for ourselves, our loved ones and anyone we worked with. But that is not the reality outside the ER - it is neither possible nor desirable to have such an approach to preventing the spread of the virus. It is simple hysteria to live like that and to advocate such measures.

I also would contend that your figures are disputable, and I've posted several links showing that they are. I'm not going to repeat them, but perhaps the figures from your personal surrounding are also not those of society at large. For example, there is considerable disagreement about the effectiveness of the vaccine, the time it takes to become immune after receiving it, and when the "epidemic" will reach its peak. There are simply too many variables in the body and in our social fabric, to lay down exact baselines and expectations about how, when, why, and where biological organisms behave.

Finally, you dismiss some very real concerns about the safety of the vaccine. You know as well as I do, although you certainly did a good job of covering it up, that only a portion of the vaccines are administered intranasaly. Likewise, most of what is being made for export is to be administered intravenously and will indeed contain both thimerosal and squalene. And even if the risk of complications is small, certainly not one in millions as you suggest, but let's agree that it is small, it is still a risk. This is a risk that we all need to think about when that needle is inserted into our own arms, or the arms of our children. These are not "myths, fears and extremely low risk," they are real, and an inevitably miserable product of a profit-driven drug industry.

But what I am most concerned with is that your point of view "from the front lines" is one that wholeheartedly embraces the hysteria of our (also profit-driven) media. What is so striking to me is that this hysteria is far less pronounced in Western Europe, for example. Europeans do have higher literacy and educational levels than our own, so maybe that's a clue. I'm not saying that these other countries don't take this virus seriously, but they seem to have a much more calm and reasoned approach than we do here in the US. The exaggerated hysteria I see here is not helping prevent the spread of this virus.

[ForeverAutumn]

nightflier, I can't speak for the rest of the world, but here in Ontario 31 people have died from H1N1. Tens of thousands of people have received the vaccine so far and there have been no reports of anyone dying from the vaccination.

In any given year, approximately 300 people in Ontario die from influenza. Again, I'm not aware of any vaccine related deaths.

While there may be questions about the effectiveness of the vaccine, I feel confident that the effective rate is higher than not getting the vaccine.

I have to agree with noddinOff's post. Nobody gives the flu to themselves. The more people who are vaccinated, the less likely that they will spread the virus to someone high risk. For you, the flu may be a 4 or 5 day inconvenience. For me, the flu is a 4 to 6 week serious illness. Just food for thought from my perspective.

[blackraven]

NF, I agree that there is hysteria in this country which is brought about by our media and the U.S.'s greater ignorance and fear. (People in this country have great fear and ignorance when it comes to their health. That's one of the reasons the emergency departments in this country are over crowded. At least 1/2 of the patients we see don't need to be there. One of my partners is Canadian and practiced there before moving here. When he arrived here, he could not believe the amount of neurotic, afraid people we see in the emergency room. He said the peolple in Canada are not as bad. I have seen this personally get worse over my 25 years in practice. This generation of people have no clue what to do for fever, common colds, bumps to the head,sprains etc.. ) The media has totally blown the H1N1 out of proportion and has scared people. It's what they do best. In general the H1N1 does not pose a great risk to human lives, other than the inconvenience of feeling lousy for several days and missing school or work (ask any one who has truly had a confirmed case and they will tell you that they thought they were dying.) . It does pose some risk to young children, people with chronic illnesses- a significant portion of the geriatric population in this country, diabetes, pulmonary diseases, heart disease and pregnant women (the flu can cause spontaneous miscarriages). We see about 10-20 people a day with the H1N1, most are fine but at least 4-5 have associated pneumonia, most of which is viral from the flu itself. Some of those people get admitted to the hospital and do just fine.

So I totally agree that there is some exaggerated hysteria about the flu but there is some real risk to a select population as well. The big deal about this flu and its hysteria is that infants and young children are dying from it where with past flu seasons this was not the case. And its just fodder for the media. But I will say this, with out the media, there would be a lot less children and high risk people getting vaccinated and there would be a few more deaths.

[blackraven]

Forever Autumn, you just stated my point. 31 people have died in Ontario and no one has died from the vaccine. If we had herd immunity or the majority of the population was vaccinated, those deaths could have been avoided. The question NF is how many deaths are acceptable? One, 31, hundreds, 36,000? I don't have the answer, but my job is to comfort people always, and sometimes heal them and occasionally save their lives. So of course I'm an advocate of most vaccines.

http://www.wtop.com/?nid=345&sid=1801968 90% success rate of the vaccine in pregnant women, and 10million doses given without serious complications

http://www.yourlunghealth.org/healthy_living/aah/10.09/articles/h1n1/

http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/healthy/vaccines/477.html

http://www.nwguardian.com/103/story/5878.html this one claims 90% success rate of the vaccine

[nightflier]

Blackraven, I don't disagree with the importance of the virus and the vaccine. So let's agree to disagree about my choice to be vaccinated. I also hear what you're saying about me being in a privileged position to make this choice, but I'm still going to stand by it. I'm not the type to get sick very often, but I'm certainly not against seeing my doctor when I need to.

FA, my wife has severe asthma (almost died twice since we've been married), so I can relate to your condition. My wife and I disagree on the regular flu vaccine, but we both share some apprehension about the hysteria surrounding H1N1. She has worked in the health care industry for years, so she reads up on this stuff a lot more than I do. For our children she's extremely careful about which, how often, how many at a time, and the content of the vaccines. She's a big proponent of the Dr. Sears approach to parenting and health (http://www.askdrsears.com/) (as opposed to the much more prevalent Ferber approach), and this goes for the recommendations on vaccines as well.

I realize that being married to someone with acute asthma could be reason enough to get the vaccine, but she lets me make that choice. I suppose that is why we do have such a good marriage. I will also say that if there was ever a serious threat to my family, I would not hesitate to get the vaccine, even if I was one of the unlucky few who would be affected by the additives. But right now, I don't believe that threat is there.

[blackraven]

Done!!! NF, I respect your concerns and decision not to get vaccinated. Certainly there have been vaccine related complications in the past with certain vaccines. Any time you put or ingest a foreign substance in your body there are potential complications. Common antibiotics and other medications cause many thousands of complications and even death in people each year.

[ForeverAutumn]

FA, my wife has severe asthma (almost died twice since we've been married), so I can relate to your condition.

I'm sorry to hear that. I, luckily, have never been hospitalized for my asthma, but I've come very close on several occasions...always as the result of a cold or flu. I'm lucky to have an excellent doctor who monitors me very closely and doesn't hesitate to start treatments at the first sign of symptoms.


I realize that being married to someone with acute asthma could be reason enough to get the vaccine, but she lets me make that choice. I suppose that is why we do have such a good marriage. I will also say that if there was ever a serious threat to my family, I would not hesitate to get the vaccine, even if I was one of the unlucky few who would be affected by the additives. But right now, I don't believe that threat is there.

I hope that you're right. I wish you all good health.

[Auricauricle]

I agree with a lot with what HyFi is saying here. As to my own thought on the matter, I submit the following.

For readers who are looking for sources of accurate and up-to-date information on the status of the HINI influenza virus and the technologies and delivery of healthcare services that will be brought to bear, I suggest looking at these two sources: The
New York City Department Health and Mental Hygiene http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/imm/flu-ptk3.shtml and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/default.htm.

I don’t subscribe to the notion that healthcare providers are either immune or susceptible to hysteria, particularly the kind that centers around the H1N1 situation. True, a number of people have been felled by the disease While it is reasonable to point out that viruses are highly mutable and that variables aplenty could undermine a vaccine’s effectiveness or the experience of side effects, the data needs to be carefully and reasonably pored over. The news agencies and press has correctly pointed out the need for caution, but I purport that things have been distorted and blown up to such an extent that the issue has become a bonfire of hyperbole and fear mongering.

A small correction should be made at this point: Flu vaccine and vaccines in general are not administered intravenously, but intramuscularly. Is there a risk associated with vaccines? Sure, but what is the risk of not being vaccinated? As well, there is a reason that certain demographics are targeted to receive these vaccines: chiefly caregivers, the very young and those older than 50 (http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4036.pdf). Simultaneously, I would hasten to point out that if one has lived a reasonably safe life and taken certain precautions against disease in the past and has not acquired or been afflicted with significant or rehabilitating illness in the past, they should not be overly concerned about this organism. It is one thing to be concerned, another to be so worked up that you can’t function

Still, FA makes the valuable assertion that not everyone can tolerate or has the resources to be “inconvenienced” by so minor an organism as the influenza virus (note the carefully restrained sarcastic undertone). Still, while 300 people are quite a lot (even one is too many), in terms of epidemiological data (sorry to be so clinical sounding), 300 is not a lot (considering the census of 2006 was roughly 12 million) (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario).

I do respect your choice to see your doctor so infrequently, Hyfi, but saying that you don’t always see your doctor when you “need to”, is a strange riposte, if only for philosophical reasons. What is considered a matter of medical necessity is principally a matter of personal consideration. If you think that having a headache is not warrantable to seek out medical care, that is your choice. I think you have explored this issue with care and I respect you for your sensitivity and mindfulness in the care of your wife and children. Still, I would not like to see such approaches advocated without the counterargument being given equal voice. Yes, folks need to know both positions regarding an argument, but (and here’s where the snob in me steps forth) I would also caution those who do so to beware of the wrath of the teeming masses. Going back to NO’s point, it is about protecting others, true; as healthcare providers and reasonable and rational citizens we should set an example.

[Feanor]

.... She's a big proponent of the Dr. Sears approach to parenting and health (http://www.askdrsears.com/) (as opposed to the much more prevalent Ferber approach), and this goes for the recommendations on vaccines as well.

...

I checked out Sear's website at NF's link above.

Gosh! Blackraven, check it out. As a doctor I fear you are missing the big payoff. I have perhaps never seen a site with more advertising endorsements, links, and pop-ups than this one. Dr. Sear's Baby Sling for $60? (http://www.askdrsears.com/store/T029920.asp?utm_source=AskDrSears.com&utm_medium=banner&utm_content=728x90&utm_campaign=balboa) Give me break. Say! how about Dr. B. Raven's DIY cardio-catheter kit or whatever? Surely there's a buck to be made.

Needless to say, Sear's has his own, The Vaccine Book, with a convienent link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316017507?ie=UTF8&tag=wwwthevaccine-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0316017507), to Amazon. (Hey, why am I posting these links?)

[ForeverAutumn]

Still, while 300 people are quite a lot (even one is too many), in terms of epidemiological data (sorry to be so clinical sounding), 300 is not a lot (considering the census of 2006 was roughly 12 million) (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario).

I agree. We haven't really talked so much here about the fear that the media is creating, which was really my point in my first post, starting this thread. 300 a year is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. 31 is almost insignificant (statistically speaking only, it's very significant to the families and friends of those 31 people). This is why I am so offended at the fear-mongering media that is creating the frenzy that has caused the long line-ups at the vaccination clinics.

I went to get my shot yesterday. There was a nurse at the end of the line, asking questions of everyone and turning away anyone who did not meet the high priority parameters. One woman was almost in tears when she was turned away and asked to come back next week. She was begging the nurse to allow her to get her vaccination. If the media reported the actual numbers as a percentage of the population and against a regular flu season, I'd bet that this woman would not have been so scared.

Our media and our government is handling this very poorly.

[Auricauricle]

Paranoia's awful for de noives, but it makes for GREAT ratings!

Um yer right....I meant 31...

[nightflier]

Yes, Dr. Sears has become a bit of a commercial target, and the wife & I disagree (amicably) about that as well, lol.

[blackraven]

I would not call the U.S. numbers of 200,000 people being hospitalized and 36,000 deaths each year from the flu insignificant compared to the total population. World wide the annual death toll is between 250,000 to 500,000!

Besides the loss of life, consider the economic impact of 200,000 hospitalizations which is in the hundreds of millions. Also consider the loss of productivity with millions of people staying home from work. When you look at the big picture, the impact of the flu upon society is tremendous.

[blackraven]

Whoa, that DR. Sears looks like he's into everything but being a hands on Dr.. He looks like he's a marketing machine.

One of my partners and I have been considering writing a book about our crazy experiences in the emergency dept. I could tell you stories that would have you laughing so hard you would be crying. Just the stories about all the rectal foreign bodies, vaginal foreign bodies and patients having sex in the ER alone could fill up a few chapters.

[Auricauricle]

In terms of loss of life, truly these numbers are quite significant in terms of impact to their families and communities (including to those in which they are employed, etc.). But this sort of significance is different than statistical and epidemiological significance, which looks at these numbers as mere drops in the bucket. Yes, we're talking about a lot of money, but I would assert that if you're looking for a place where the hemmorhage is coming from, you're spending too much time on the capillary beds (I know it's an awful metaphor--work with me!)....

[blackraven]

So you dont think 1/2 a million people dying a preventable death is significant? You can't look at how it compares to the total world population. Human life has to mean more than that!.

[Auricauricle]

Now don't go an' bait me, BR! Read my posts again. have a beer, and I'll burp an' debate with ya all night long...! :D

[dean_martin]

hey, BR. just wanted to thank you for participating and relating your experiences on the ground. Good info. I kind of regret posting my anarchist friend's view earlier in this thread, but hopefully by my tone everyone understood I wasn't endorsing it.

[blackraven]

Now don't go an' bait me, BR! Read my posts again. have a beer, and I'll burp an' debate with ya all night long...!
:D


I've already had a few (Beers) to go along with the Sushi my daughter and I just went out for. No more baiting, I'm done.

GO YANKEES!

[noddin0ff]

Fear and paranoia in the media? nah...

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'<a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-15-2009/doubt-break--09'>Doubt Break '09<a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:252494' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes'>Daily Show<br/> Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/videos/tag/health'>Health Care Crisis</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

[noddin0ff]

On the serious side, what I glean from the research community...

On vaccination safety, H1N1 vaccine is no different than normal flu vaccine. It's made the same way. If you don't fear normal flu vaccine, you have no reason to fear H1N1. If you fear flu vaccines in general, and your adequately informed, I can't add anything. Fear is fear.

As far as pandemic concerns go, for normal flu the population (us and or we) have all been experiencing flu for years. Wether you get vaccines or not you've likely had exposure to one or more flu strains and you have some acquired resistance to flu in general. Annual vaccines promote immunity to that years flavor du jour, but prior exposure to other flavors help due to cross immunity. However, the population has little to know exposure to the H1N1 variety of swine flu, thus we don't have any already acquired immunity. This doesn't necessarily mean that if you get H1N1 it will be worse than getting normal flu. What it means is that on a population level there is no herd immunity to prevent rapid spread. If you as an individual encounter H1N1 you have a much much greater likelyhood of getting the flu, getting sick, and spreading it than if you encountered normal flu.

Finally, the one peculiarity about H1N1 that is concerning people, and as far as I can tell noone really knows what the implications are, is that an unusually high (relative to normal flu) number of children are dying from H1N1. This is where the real alarm is. Alarming because 1) it's not what's been typically seen before and 2) causation is not evident. Nobody likes to see more kids die. And, remember, vaccinations aren't about you, they're about who you might infect.

I would speculate that H1N1 causes slightly more lung inflammation than normal flu and that infants with H1N1 have more congestion and fluid in the lungs due to this inflammation than with normal flu because they don't clear it as well as adults. The higher death rates are likely due to secondary infections or complications brought about by failure to adequately clear the lungs. I'm not a doctor. I'm just speculating from what I hear from my segment of the research community.

There is primary and recent literature to suggest that H1N1 is more severe on the lung than normal flu. The evidence is from animal models and you can click this link (http://www.mediafire.com/?gztw0mdzemm) if you want to read it. It's very dense and I don't claim to understand it all in its entirety. Nature is one of the premier science journals. That doesn't mean everything is guaranteed to be true, it just means that the best peer reviewed science tends to get published there. If we knew the answers there wouldn't be a need for research.

[bondsam123]

Useful tips about the Flu
1.The rewards of eating 5 or more fruits and vegetables daily are worth the effort, proven to be strong weapons to fight the forces of flu and colds.
2.Keep tissues handy for coughs and sneezes. Then dispose of tissues in a "no-touch" container. This is a container that is emptied without touching the contents.
3.Cough or sneeze into your elbow or arm NOT your hands, and teach children to do the same. Droplets from coughing or sneezing can contain viruses that can cause other people to become sick. If you cough or sneeze into your hands, everything that you touch with your hands may expose others if they come in contact with those same surfaces.
4.Clean children's toys frequently to cut down on the number of germs, especially toys that can be put in the mouth.
5.If you are sick with a cold or flu, stay home and away from other people if possible. You will prevent the spread of your illness to others and also protect yourself from the more serious side effects of the flu or colds.
6.Don't stack coats in the workplace, childcare facilities, or other public areas. Stacking of coats can pass on cold or flu germs as well as ringworm and lice.
7.In the workplace, avoid sharing common items such as phones and computer keyboards. If you have to share, then wash your hands frequently and avoid touching your eyes, nose, or mouth.
8.Enclosed areas should be ventilated periodically to get rid of germs in the air. Consider opening a window in your home in a room that is not occupied to let some fresh air in.
9.Wash your hands frequently throughout the day. Always remember to turn off faucets with a paper towel. Teach your children the same healthy habits.
10.Caution! Flu germs found lurking under the mistletoe. If you have a cold or the flu, stay away. If you are healthy, consider yourself warned.
11.Bring a hand sanitizer to work with you and use it periodically, especially if you have a cold. You may want to apply a hand moisturizer or lotion to combat dryness of your hands.

[Auricauricle]

I've already had a few (Beers) to go along with the Sushi my daughter and I just went out for. No more baiting, I'm done.

Sushi! Oh, my good God! You could (gasp!) ingest a parasite! And to (gulp!) subject your daughter to the risk! Oh, the horror! The horror! :)

[blackraven]

Sushi! Oh, my good God! You could (gasp!) ingest a parasite! And to (gulp!) subject your daughter to the risk! Oh, the horror! The horror! :)

The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out, through your stomach and out your snout!

Drink enough alcohol and it will kill anything.:2:

[Auricauricle]

Just returnin' the good favor, bro' mine! If you knew sushi like I knew sushi....BTW, what didja study out in Okla-home?

Hey, NO: That vid was EX-cellent!

[nightflier]

Oh, the horror! The horror! :)

Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies.

[Auricauricle]

Good call, NF! Think we can go ahead with the inoculation program?

[blackraven]

Just returnin' the good favor, bro' mine! If you knew sushi like I knew sushi....BTW, what didja study out in Okla-home?

Hey, NO: That vid was EX-cellent!

I went to college and medical school at Oklahoma State University. It was culture shock going there from Brooklyn NY. I had a great time though once I got used to "Damn Yankee, why don't you go back where you came from".

Believe me, I know all the bad things you can get from sushi and fish in general! I took a continuing medical education course on food borne pathogens, parasites, etc.. Its not pretty!

[Auricauricle]

Yep...Had the same experience when I moved to New York...."Damn Rednecks! Go home!"

[ForeverAutumn]

The first cat diagnosis...it appears that kitty caught the virus from the infected humans in the house.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/091105/health/health_flu_us_animal

[nightflier]

...when companies penalize employees who take sick days. Take Wal-mart for example:

"At Wal-Mart, when employees miss one or more days because of illness or other reasons, they generally get a demerit point. Once employees obtain four points over a six-month period, they begin receiving warnings that can lead to dismissal." (Lack of Paid Sick Days May Worsen Flu Pandemic (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/business/03sick.html))

I bet they're pretty gung-ho about getting their employees vaccinated.

[ForeverAutumn]

I read an article recently that referred to this as "presenteeism". The opposite of absenteeism. It means coming to work while ill, getting little done, and spreading germs to the people around you.

For me, this article just reinforces the importance of getting vaccinated. Especially as the Christmas season nears and more people start spending time in crowded malls where most retail employees are paid hourly and are not getting paid for sick time off.

Of course the ideal solution is to find a way for companies that don't offer sick-day policies to start offering them. But that's not going to happen overnight. Especially in situations where employees are paid hourly and/or are part-time.

[blackraven]

My daughter is taking her senior year off college of to work in a private Alzheimer's unit so that she can get some medical experience so that she can apply to Nursing school next year. She worked for them all summer, filled in when they were short and worked on a moments notice, giving up her weekends and free time off. However, when she had to call in sick with fever or vomiting she received demerits.

And this past month she has been off work because some residents have died and they are over staffed. Luckily they have some new residents and she is back to wrk this week.

This is such BS, that employers can give you demerits for being ill, but not reward you as being a hard, reliable worker.

But I will side with the employers in that many workers call in sick when they are truly not sick, leaving the employer short handed on short notice. We see this all the time in the medical field. We also see people scrambling into the ER, usually on Sunday night to get a Dr's note stating that they were sick and needed to be off for the weekend when they are not truly sick. They are none too happy with us when we say no and they had to wait a couple of hours to see us! In addition they get at least a $200 bill for just walking in the door. But of course we never collect on it because insurance won't reimburse for that and those people don't pay their bills!

[nightflier]

Fair enough about cracking down on people calling in sick when they are not, but is this what we should be doing when we have an epidemic? What about a future virus that is much more deadly? You can call it what you want, but in the end this is bad for the people taking care of the sick, it's bad for business, and ultimately bad for the survival of our society. Yes, vaccinations are important, but I think the problem with demerits is a much more insidious approach at a time like this - it's putting profits ahead of the general good, and that has been my critique all along. When are we going to grow up and realize that certain things like health care won't always have a price tag anyone can afford?

[blackraven]

NF, I'm on your side on this one. I was just presenting another side of the coin that has lead to this.

[ForeverAutumn]

I thought this article (http://ca.lifestyle.yahoo.com/health-fitness/articles/health-alerts/cp/home_family-flu_dogma_being_rewritten_by_a_strange_virus_no_on e_pegged_to_trigger_a_pandemic/1) was interesting. It discusses the myths and incorrect assumptions that the science and research community has made regarding H1N1 and the flu in general.

[blackraven]

FA, nice find. It shows how much we still don't know about the Flu virus. It does support my posts though.

[Auricauricle]

Clearly the potential for abuse is a consideration (see post 74), but in my experience employers were most concerned about patterns rather than incidents of abuse. It's still appalling to read that healthcare employers are draconian enough to provide staff, regradless of the well being of those concerned. Employers of this ilk should bear some accountability when nosocomial infection rates correspond to staff illness...

[nightflier]

Well this certainly isn't what I like to read in the morning paper. I guess if you can afford it, you can buy even the CDC:

CDC Criticized for Distributing Scarce Flu Vaccines to Wall St. Firms

And calls are growing for an investigation into why health officials have handed out swine flu vaccines to some of Wall Street’s leading financial firms while they’re unavailable to most Americans. More than a dozen companies were given the vaccines, including Citigroup, Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase. The Center for Disease Control says the companies met several criteria, including having a large number of employees and their own medical staff. But critics say the CDC has violated its own calls to distribute the vaccine only to those at highest risk. In a statement, Melanie Sloan of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington said, “Although CREW has been unable to uncover the demographic makeup of [these companies], it seems safe to assume the vast majority of their employees are not pregnant women, infants and children, young adults up to 24 years old, and healthcare workers.” (CDC Criticized for Distributing Scarce Flu Vaccines to Wall St. Firms (http://www.democracynow.org/2009/11/6/headlines#16)

[ForeverAutumn]

Well this certainly isn't what I like to read in the morning paper. I guess if you can afford it, you can buy even the CDC:

CDC Criticized for Distributing Scarce Flu Vaccines to Wall St. Firms



We've had similar issues in Canada. Last week, when only high risk people were supposed to be getting vaccinated, The Calgary Flames hockey team had a private vaccination clinic for team members and their families. It was approved by the Alberta government. And, apparently, a private medical clinic in Toronto received 3000 vaccinations for their clientele, who are rich but not necessarily high risk...approved by the Ontario government.

Meanwhile, my doctor, who has 100 patients on a high-risk list has recieved only one vial of the vaccination, this morning.

Vaccinations for the general public aren't supposed to start until Monday.

[ForeverAutumn]

Okay, this is going a bit too far. This quote came from an article about members of hospital Board of Directors getting vaccinated.

"What we are seeing evokes scenes from the Titanic, the privileged pushing to the front and leaving vulnerable women and children to a chilling fate," said Sharleen Stewart of the Service Employees International Union Canada.

The Titanic? Seriously? I certainly hope our ship isn't sinking.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091106/health/health_ont_flu

[Auricauricle]

Won't be long before they barricade the clinics...

[blackraven]

Its the Ultra wealthy taking care of their own. Money talks!

[Auricauricle]

Yep. Survival of the fattest!

[nightflier]

Well not to get overly dramatic about it, but our doctor has the vaccine in stock and we decided as a family to get the vaccine after all. I better bring something to read, I hear the lines are long.

[ForeverAutumn]

Well not to get overly dramatic about it, but our doctor has the vaccine in stock and we decided as a family to get the vaccine after all. I better bring something to read, I hear the lines are long.

In my own humble opinion...good decision. Some people that I know (myself included) experienced a sore arm for the next few days after their shot. So, just as a precaution, my advice is if you're right handed then get the shot in your left arm (and vice versa).

Happy vaccination!

[nightflier]

No soreness, at least not for me. The kids are a bit listless, but I gess that's understandable. But this brings up another question: are they now contagious to others who have not received the vaccine? And if they are, then doesn't that spread the virus to people who otherwise wouldn't be exposed?

[ForeverAutumn]

No soreness, at least not for me. The kids are a bit listless, but I gess that's understandable. But this brings up another question: are they now contagious to others who have not received the vaccine? And if they are, then doesn't that spread the virus to people who otherwise wouldn't be exposed?

My understanding is that you cannot catch the flu (including H1N1) from the flu vaccines. There is no live virus in the vaccine. So, no, they are not contagious to anyone. Listlessness and mild flu-like symptoms can be a side affect that will pass, but is not the flu.

Perhaps one of our resident medical experts can confirm.

[nightflier]

Well, that's the official line from the CDC, too, but I'm not so sure. Maybe it's my distrustful nature, but if inocculated people are contageous, even slightly, that would skew the stats we're reading about in the papers, and thus adding to the hysteria.

Let me put it another way. Suppose you had your child in a daycare, and you vaccinated your child, but the other parents didn't. Several days later, several of the children became very sick, and one was even hospitalized. Could that child's parents sue you for willfull endangerement? You could claim in your defence that your child was not the cause, but how sure would you be of that? Who would you trust to give you an accurate answer?

(ignoring for the sake of argument that Canadians don't sue people like we do here)

[dean_martin]

My brother-in-law was diagnosed with this at the end of last week. He's feeling a little better today, but his boss wants him back on the job Thursday. He sevices vending machines at large companies, hospitals, nursing homes, etc. It's my understanding that the hospitals and nursing homes are not going to let him back in that soon, but he'll still have to service machines in break rooms at large companies. Is this a recipe to spread? Hopefully, he'll ask his doctor before he gives it a try (but he may not if his boss puts too much pressure on him).

[ForeverAutumn]

You could claim in your defence that your child was not the cause, but how sure would you be of that?

I would be 100% sure. And good luck proving me wrong beyond a reasonable doubt.

[blackraven]

As long as he wears an N-95 mask and washes his hands he should be ok, but ideally you should be off work for 7-10 days after your fever resolves.

[nightflier]

Blackraven,

What is your take on whether inoculated people are contagious?

By the way, 7-10 days is entirely unrealistic for blue-collar workers. That just isn't going to happen.

[blackraven]

The injectable vaccine is a dead and you can't catch it. The intranasal vaccine is a modified or attenuated live flu virus that at most can cause a day or 2 of very mild cold like symptoms. Both vaccines can make you feel under the weather for a day or 2 as your immune system starts to respond just like any other vaccine.

But to answer your question, you can pass it on but the incidence is extremely low, it won't cause the flu but may cause mild cold like symptoms. This is why people who are immuno-compromised or are pregnant are not candidates for the intranasal vaccine but they can receive the injectable.

By the way, I think we have seen the peak of the H1N1 here. We are still seeing people with it but not the 15-20 people a day. We will see what happens when the weather gets colder to see if it peaks again.

[nightflier]

By the way, I think we have seen the peak of the H1N1 here. We are still seeing people with it but not the 15-20 people a day. We will see what happens when the weather gets colder to see if it peaks again.

and I just got the shot. How long will it take before I'm no longer susceptible?

[blackraven]

You are immune to the H1N1 in as little as 9 days but it could take a little longer. Has the news state whether or not it has peaked in CA?