It's official Monoprice is just cheap cable

[Mr Peabody]

I got together with another forum member this evening to hook up some gear and listen. Along with his gear he brought his cables which happened to be Monoprice. He had a Rotel preamp, 1090 and CDP 1055, I used my ERC-1 and Adcom gfa-5500. I used my Transparent speaker connects and he hooked his gear up using the Monoprice. When we fired up the system it was alright but nothing to write home about. I brought in one pair of Bluejeans LC RCA's which we placed between the CDP and preamp. "Night & Day" is subjective, so let me put it this way, it was an immensely vast improvement. So I grabbed another pair which we placed between the pre and power amp, with the Monoprice gone the system transformed up to an entirely better level of performance. After we broke everything down and was leaving it dawned on me we should have compared the Monoprice to stock cables to see if any improvement was noticed. The Monoprice may look better but $5.00 is $5.00, if you are going to upgrade get some cables that are worth something or going to actually help the system. I wouldn't even recommend Monoprice for receiver users. They surely should be able to hear the difference between them and something like Bluejeans. The extra $30.00 is more than worth it. The BJC was vastly better in every aspect, most importantly it was like many vales were lifted from in front of the music. Vastly better detail and frequency response from top to bottom.

We hooked up my Audio Note 1.1x which was a bit off it's game with the BJC so I grabbed a pair of AN cables which I didn't use that much for some reason, but now plan to mate with the 1.1x from now on. The 1.1x seemed to come into it's own with the Audio Note RCA's. The improvement wasn't as large as BJC over Monoprice but improvement there was. The BJC didn't seem to have synergy with the 1.1x for some reason. The first time I experienced that with BJC. Maybe this warrants more experimentation with BJC and tube gear.

[Hyfi]

So the Mono cables are nothing more than good looking Black & Reds. At that price point, I would have thought nothing less ...er more.

Sounds fun to share testing though. I'd be curious to see how my Synsrgistics would have compared.

[Mr Peabody]

I've compared the BJC to better cables like Transparent. The Transparent was better but twice the price of the BJC LC series. At about $30.00 to $35.00 a pair BJC are priced right. They give a real upgrade and a good start for entry to mid level gear. And then, if better gear and you wanted to experiment you could step into more expensive cables to see if any more expense would be worth it.

I was hoping not to start trouble but too many people use Monoprice on this board and tell people they are good, contrarily, they suck. So I hope that those here who bought Monoprice on a recommendation without putting them up against anything else might at least try a better cable to see if they notice an improvement. It just seems foolish to spend hundreds of dollars on audio gear and choke it out with $5.00 cables. I shouldn't even mention the price of MP, it's not that at all, if they were surprisingly good I would admit it and Frenchmon was there to keep me honest. The performance was poor though and degraded the gear more than it helped.

[poppachubby]

I just checked the Monoprice site, it looks like regular 'ol cable to me. Priced like regular cable. Not sure why anyone would get too excited about it. Ultralink smokes Monoprice and BlueJeans, sorry fellas....

http://www.ultralinkcables.com/#/products/challenger_2/

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not familiar with Ultralink. Have you compared them to Bluejeans? And, please don't use Bluejeans and Monoprice in the same sentence as if they were even remotely equal.

[poppachubby]

I'm not familiar with Ultralink. Have you compared them to Bluejeans? And, please don't use Bluejeans and Monoprice in the same sentence as if they were even remotely equal.


Sorry Peabody, you're right, Blue Jeans are good stuff. I have a pair of 12 guage Challenger-2 from the link I posted. Just awesomely designed stuff. I bought mine at $1.25/ft, an online closeout a few years ago. I posted a thread recently in which I attempted to replace the "links" but got a rude audio awakening. I put them back on almost right away, they make a huge difference.

Anyhow, I'm not sure what the fuss is about Monoprice, they don't appear to be fooling anyone on their site.

[atomicAdam]

Ok Mr Peabody, I'll bite. Seeing as that I have the Monoprice cables and they are definately am improvement over the standard RatShack cables.

I'll let you know my thoughts when I get them.

[Mr Peabody]

Adam, you are buying BJC? You will notice improvement but with using VanAlstine and higher end gear you should even be able to hear more improvement with better cables than that.

[atomicAdam]

Adam, you are buying BJC? You will notice improvement but with using VanAlstine and higher end gear you should even be able to hear more improvement with better cables than that.


Yeah, I'll buy a couple BLC tomorrow, I think a 2ft and 3ft will do be fine. It would be pretty hard to spend more on cables than the ~$10/ft of the BLC at this point, and I might have to hear to believe.

Really I'd like to clean up my power before getting higher end cables. That and a TT.

I assume it will take a week or so to get them in. So I'll let you'll know my Monoprice vs. BJC comparisons results on my AVA gear in a week or so.

[atomicAdam]

what about BLC speaker cables?

[poppachubby]

Adam, JohnMichael suggested solid core to me and after some research, I think it would be a good choice for you. Cheaper too...

[atomicAdam]

I've got some 12 gauge speaker cable right now. I think I'll just get a set of spade and banana ends and terminate them correctly. I've got a bunch of CAT5 around that I was going to try to weave into some speaker cable at some point. I'll see how that goes.

[Feanor]

Yeah, I'll buy a couple BLC tomorrow, I think a 2ft and 3ft will do be fine. It would be pretty hard to spend more on cables than the ~$10/ft of the BLC at this point, and I might have to hear to believe.

Really I'd like to clean up my power before getting higher end cables. That and a TT.

I assume it will take a week or so to get them in. So I'll let you'll know my Monoprice vs. BJC comparisons results on my AVA gear in a week or so.
I've recommended BJC for a quite a while. For their modest price they ensure compotent performance.

aAdam, I think you can go with your gut on this one.

Mr P has very acute hearing and easily distinquishs difference among <$100/pr. interconnects. Neverthess I suggest that you will hear more differences swapping $30 tubes, $12 opamps, or maybe even $30 fuses (if they are in the direct signal path), than going from $30 BJCs to $300 whatever interconnects.

Moral of my story: don't go nuts on interconnects; there are better ways to for a person on a modest budget to spend his money.

[poppachubby]

I've recommended BJC for a quite a while. For their modest price they ensure compotent performance.

aAdam, I think you can go with your gut on this one.

Mr P has very acute hearing and easily distinquishs difference among <$100/pr. interconnects. Neverthess I suggest that you will hear more differences swapping $30 tubes, $12 opamps, or maybe even $30 fuses (if they are in the direct signal path), than going from $30 BJCs to $300 whatever interconnects.

Moral of my story: don't go nuts on interconnects; there are better ways to for a person on a modest budget to spend his money.

Adam, do you have a really good electronics surplus around you? These guys will tend to have rolls of discontinued cabling. Usually brand name for a fraction of it's worth and original cost.

I agree with Feanor, however, do a little research and find the right cable for the right price ONCE. Then, you need not worry about it. You should be able to get a pair of rockin cables, with termination for $30 - $50. Like I said, check your local surplus shops. These days, I almost shop exclusively online and at my local surplus.

BTW, these guys in town have some great stuff for cabling right now. Let me know what you plan to do and for how much. If I can severely best the cost/value, I'll buy it and ship it down to you. Would be fun and I would love to help out.

Perhaps you've already bought what you need and all of this is hot air....

[atomicAdam]

thanks for the heads up.

i'm going to try the BJC. Wont hurt. But the bling bling cables....errr.. not likely ever.

When I went to that Naim, Nordost, Dali demo in SF a couple weeks ago. The only thing that I heard that made a hell of a difference was the power cable.

That is why I am so interested in getting a PS Audio Power Plant. When they switched from the Naim standard cables to the Nordost bling bling cables, i didn't hear a difference. So why bother.

But for $40 I can try the BJC cables. And if they don't work, I can just mail them to Mr.P after he send me some cash! :D

[winston]

MR P' while I'M not disputing your Impression's of the MP & BJC test that you and Frenchmon' did........however i will say this, as you did not mentioned the MODEL'S # NUMBER'S on the MP....i used them booth!! because they are good value.

on the MP cable !! the MP-RG59 is exactly your impression's and then some-----they're so stiff that they jump off the RCA's jacks during listening session's........................


BUT BUT BUT!!! THE MP-RG6 i find them to be nice sounding and also nicely constructed like more expensive cable's. subsequently i was hoping those Weren't the one's you guy's tested??!!! wait" wait" don't tell me...

[frenchmon]

Hey pop...How do you purchase the ultralink cables from the link you gave? I would at least like to know the pricing.

[frenchmon]

I can also vouch for what MrPeabody said. The MP cables are mine and they where as a veil was placed over them compared to the BJC. The only reason I bought them was to get a quick fix on the fidelity of the Rotel gear at the time I got it. For about three days I used regular cheap cables...you know the thin red and white cables that come with cheap audio? The MP do offer a improvement over the cheap red and white stuff. But I am now in the market for cables sooner than I wanted. I had hoped to get cables after I completed all my upgrades, but hanging around in Mr. Peabodys two channel room sorta has an effect on a person.

[jimbob]

I can also vouch for what MrPeabody said. The MP cables are mine and they where as a veil was placed over them compared to the BJC. The only reason I bought them was to get a quick fix on the fidelity of the Rotel gear at the time I got it. For about three days I used regular cheap cables...you know the thin red and white cables that come with cheap audio? The MP do offer a improvement over the cheap red and white stuff. But I am now in the market for cables sooner than I wanted. I had hoped to get cables after I completed all my upgrades, but hanging around in Mr. Peabodys two channel room sorta has an effect on a person.


My next venture is to build my own interconnects from these instructions.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10495

[poppachubby]

Hey pop...How do you purchase the ultralink cables from the link you gave? I would at least like to know the pricing.

I googled "Ultralink Challenger-2 12 gauge" and was given a couple of sites. One in particular had a slew of UL cables. The Challenger-2 12 gauge was sale priced at $60 for 30 feet. However, if you really want some top shelf UL, they also had the Matrix series, not sure of the lengths but a pair of strands, 10/12 gauge, already set with high end termination was running in the 80 - 100 range.

This was a couple of days ago. See if you can find it, if not let me know and I will have a look again. It's well worth it frenchmon! Try these...

http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=C2SC-12&nav=cat

http://www.electronicoutlet.ca/products/total/Cable-69/Speaker-cable-1369/Ultralink-1198/

[frenchmon]

Winston...sorry to break the news to you but I have both cables....The thing with the MP cables is if you don't have anything to compare it to, you think its good stuff. In my system I knew there where better cables out there than MP but if Im not hearing other cables then what I have sounds good. But once I got over to Mr Peabodys two channel room where he has transparent Cables, BlueJean Cables, and Audio Note Cables, and then you switch them out for MP, if you have any kind of a discerning ear, you can hear the difference. I forgot what song Mr. P was playing but we went back and forth with the MP and the BJ and the highs with the BJ sparkled and with the MP it was like it could not even grab your attention. The MP are that bad.

I'm sitting hear as I type listening to my favorite...Charles Lloyd (oh and by the way Winston, you gotta go and get this CD by Charles Lloyd its called "The water is wide". I know you and I share similar taste in music...so I know for sure you will like it. Its acoustic jazz at its best.) and wondering how much detail I'm missing from Billy Higgins cymbals.

frenchmon

[atomicAdam]

Ok, 2 BJC LC-1 3ft on the way.

Mr. P you'll be in a $65 hole if these are no good! :D I'm sure they'll help.

I mean, cables can't really make sound sound better, just not as bad, or different.

[poppachubby]

Ok, 2 BJC LC-1 3ft on the way.

Mr. P you'll be in a $65 hole if these are no good! :D I'm sure they'll help.

I mean, cables can't really make sound sound better, just not as bad, or different.


Perhaps, or maybe you just think it's all voodoo. Here's a scientific study done in 1985 by the legendary Malcolm Omar Hawksford. He proves beyond a doubt, using science and mathematical formulas, the ability of cable as it relates to audio.

It's a little bit heady, I'm not sure if Stereophile has published a "diet" version or not. He more or less concludes that solid core at what would be considered higher gauge (18-22) is a better conductor than stranded at lower gauges. At least, that's what I got out of it. I'm sure guys like E-Stat and emaidel are well familiar with this study and will correct me if my presumptions are wrong.

Of course, no cable company wants you to know this, but it may as well be in Chinese anyhow...

For your enjoyment...

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/index.html

[Mr Peabody]

Adam, I've never used the BJC speaker connects. Actually, I had my doubts about BJC, IBStormin sent me some to try along with some other cables. I'm not sure where that original thread is. Any way I found the BJC to have excellent construction, the bass not overly bold, the highs a bit rolled off despite what they say on their website, the midrange is very good and the overall frequency response to be balanced. When I say "highs rolled off" or not strong bass that's in comparison to more expensive cables, mainly Transparent. I ended up sending IBStormin my Transparent and keeping the BJC because my second system is in a lively room and I liked the BJC in their better. Easier on the ears at high volume levels.

Any way I think you will be happy.

[blackraven]

I've got some BJC's speaker wire that I terminated with their banana plugs. They sound fine. I bought the 10g. They sound about the same as the $500 pr Monster Z4 speaker cables that I bought on Ebay for $120.

I also have a BJC's digital coax and HDMI cable. Both are well made and work well.

[Mr Peabody]

Really though in thinking about the other night the BJC sounded good with the ERC/Rotel/Adcom and you'd never notice any deficiencies but you do notice the limits of BJC when compared to other cables like when we switched to the Audio Note cable.

[winston]

frenchmon@quote I can also vouch for what Mr Peabody said
Thank's frenchmon.

I'll report to you on the Cd's of Elaine Elias & Charles Lloyd in the rave recordings thread later..
Win.

[atomicAdam]

I got my BJC in today. Must say - 2 day for shipping. Very fast.

Last night I spend a couple hours and listened to some Godspeed You Black Emperor to get the feel for my system. I must say, the AVA OmegaStar 250EX is awesome! The channel split is so clean and clear. I never knew that on Slow Riot for New Zero Kanada [EP], after the string intro, there is an electric bass on on channel and a cello on the other throughout the rest of the EP. Before it always just sounded like there was bass, centered, when infact it was completely not at all like that. I'll see if the BJC reveal some more interesting things.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/bluejeancable-interconnect.jpg

[poppachubby]

I got my BJC in today. Must say - 2 day for shipping. Very fast.

Last night I spend a couple hours and listened to some Godspeed You Black Emperor to get the feel for my system. I must say, the AVA OmegaStar 250EX is awesome! The channel split is so clean and clear. I never knew that on Slow Riot for New Zero Kanada [EP], after the string intro, there is an electric bass on on channel and a cello on the other throughout the rest of the EP. Before it always just sounded like there was bass, centered, when infact it was completely not at all like that. I'll see if the BJC reveal some more interesting things.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/bluejeancable-interconnect.jpg

Sounds good AA, happy to hear your upgrade is audible.

[frenchmon]

Nice to see you do have a discerning ear AA. The BJC are some good cables.

Congrats!


frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

So I guess if I want more BJC I don't have to buy it from Adam. :) Is that the name of the band or the album, always looking for new tunes.

[atomicAdam]

Oh, sorry guys, I've not tried them out on the CD Player yet. I got home and set up my new Rega P3/24 and Moon LP3 phono amp.

That stuff about the GYBE was with the MonoPrice.

I'll have to get to the BJC cd player test this weekend, right now the 2 cables I have are plugged into the TT set up.

[Mr Peabody]

So the difference you heard is from the new turntabke rig?

[Mr Peabody]

Why don't you stick the Monoprice in place of the BJC in the turntable set up?

[atomicAdam]

Ok, let me explain.

Last night, running MonoPrice, PS1, AVA Pre/Amp - I heard a lot more than I had ever before on GYBE. I attribute that to the AVA OmegaStar 250 EX amp. That thing is awesome.

Today, I got in the mail the BJC. Then I went to AudioVisionSF and picked up a Rega P3/24 and Simaudio Moon LP3 Phono stage.

I got home this afternoon, and set up the TT and used the BJC for the interconnect from the PhonoStage->PreAmp->Amp.

I just spent a couple minutes with the new TT set up listening to Paul Simon's Graceland, Tracy Chapman, Elton John's Greatest Hits (and a jacked up LP at that) and Ratatat's LP3.

I noticed the bass was very clear, but way too present. I plugged the bungs on the RS6 speakers but still heavy bass. Not too boomy with the bungs in, but very present. Another thing the highs, like cymbal crashes never really seemed standout. As in, they were too dampened. Not even with the loud bass and the resonance was lacking and fade of the cymbals was much too fast. This is with the BJC.

So I quickly plugged in the Monoprice cables to the Line Stage and noticed the bass evened out, but lost detail, and the music as a whole lost some depth.

So...my 2 minute verdict.

BJC add depth, good black level, and louder but detailed bass and dampens the highs too much.

MonoPrice evened the bass out with everything else and added in missing highs but lost detail and depth.

Now granted, this is with the Shure M97xE cart and new Rega/Simaudio and new BJC interconnects. Maybe the equipment needs some times to balance out, or change, or whatever.

I've not tried the BJC with the CD player yet, but I am very interested to try the BJC with my P.O.S. Toshiba free off the back porch DVD player that I use to play CDs with. It is on the bright side. The BJC might help balance that.

As far as the TT goes. I'll give it some time, maybe adjust speaker position in the room. But if I keep the BJC I'm going to have to look for a cart that runs on the higher side. I'll take the detail and depth of the BJC over the evenness of the Monoprice.

Here some picts. Please forgive. These are taken with my G1 phone, my point and shot connect cable is at the office. And bad lighting. The black things behind the RS6 speakers are the maggie MMGs I picked up. Mag said the repair wasn't worth the speakers, so I inserted foam under the sock and now have some room conditioning. Yeah, and my cables are a mess. Going to clean that up this weekend after some other chores.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/TT-01.jpg

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/medium/TT-02.jpg

[E-Stat]

I got home this afternoon, and set up the TT and used the BJC for the interconnect from the PhonoStage->PreAmp->Amp....As in, they were too dampened. Not even with the loud bass and the resonance was lacking and fade of the cymbals was much too fast. This is with the BJC...So I quickly plugged in the Monoprice cables to the Line Stage and noticed the bass evened out, but lost detail, and the music as a whole lost some depth.
I also use a Shure M97 and like many MM designs, they require a certain amount of capacitance for the most linear performance (~250 pF). The BJC cables, however, are of an extremely low capacitance design and may not be the best fit for the turntable to phono pre run. I use mine from phono pre to power amp in the vintage system. They would also serve well from CDP to preamp or power amp where low capacitance is usually a benefit.

rw

[poppachubby]

Damn Adam!! Nice set up bro, you've left me in the dust. You've arrived...congrats...time to track down some tasty vinyl. Listen and enjoy man!!!

[atomicAdam]

Damn Adam!! Nice set up bro, you've left me in the dust. You've arrived...congrats...time to track down some tasty vinyl. Listen and enjoy man!!!


Thanks. I just picked some up today. But the 30th edition Pink Floyd's Dark Side was really really bass heavy. Was thinking it was a bad remaster but maybe my cable issue.

I have to say, I really have been enjoying the AVA OmegaStar, I should email Frank and tell him he is awesome.

[atomicAdam]

I also use a Shure M97 and like many MM designs, they require a certain amount of capacitance for the most linear performance (~250 pF). The BJC cables, however, are of an extremely low capacitance design and may not be the best fit for the turntable to phono pre run. I use mine from phono pre to power amp in the vintage system. They would also serve well from CDP to preamp or power amp where low capacitance is usually a benefit.

rw


Dr. E-Stat, quick - whats the prescription for my affliction?! What cables would you suggest? (btw - Dr. E-Stat EDIT "i mean not being sarcastic" is being sarcastic. I think that is a great nickname for you now, and I've had a lot of coffee tonight so my brain is going a little crazy!)

But really, what do you suggest then because the Monoprice isn't going to cut it in terms of depth and detail.

[blackraven]

Glad to hear you really like the Omega Star Adam. Nice set up there. I'm going to order a pair of BJC IC's to do some IC rolling comparing them to my AudioQuest Corals and Monster M1000i's. I've got the AQ's going from my DAC to the preamp and the M1000's from the Preamp to my amp. I need an extra pair of IC's any way with 3 systems.

[blackraven]

Adam, take a look at these cables. I just might have to give them a listen.

http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=1343

Thats $79 for the pair!

[poppachubby]

Thanks. I just picked some up today. But the 30th edition Pink Floyd's Dark Side was really really bass heavy. Was thinking it was a bad remaster but maybe my cable issue.

I have to say, I really have been enjoying the AVA OmegaStar, I should email Frank and tell him he is awesome.

Adam, you may have to put real bass traps in place of those Mags. Alot of guys upgrade cables to get improved bass response, maybe you just need to harness it somehow.

[atomicAdam]

Adam, take a look at these cables. I just might have to give them a listen.

http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=1343

Thats $79 for the pair!

Oach, $80 for the pair.

You suggesting them for my phono stage to pre-amp IC?

[JohnMichael]

Adam I could send you a pair of AlphaCore Micropurls to try out. If I remember correctly they are fairly high in capacitance.


Oh and congrats on the new ttable. Let me know what you think of the table and phono stage.

[blackraven]

I was thinking from your preamp to amp. I have no experience with silver cables and I'm very skeptical about cables (at least the one's costing hundreds of dollars) but from what I've read about silver cables they tend to give more detailed or prominent highs. However, I can't find any reviews on these. I believe they are an older cable from 3-5yrs ago.

[atomicAdam]

Adam I could send you a pair of AlphaCore Micropurls to try out. If I remember correctly they are fairly high in capacitance.


Oh and congrats on the new ttable. Let me know what you think of the table and phono stage.


That is a pricey cable. I would be happy to try, and if it works, should I buy? From you?

And thanks.

I have to say, the clarity BJC is pretty nice. Cables do make a difference. I'm an convinced.

[atomicAdam]

this is an extremely interesting article - http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/cable_impedance.html

even if i don't know what most of it means.

interesting quotes

"In order for a cable's characteristic impedance to make any difference in the way the signal passes through it, the cable must be at least a large fraction of a wavelength long for the particular frequency it is carrying.

Most wires will have a speed of travel for AC current of 60 to 70 percent of the speed of light, or about 195 million meters per second. An audio frequency of 20,000 Hz has a wavelength of 9,750 meters, so a cable would have to be four or five *kilometers* long before it even began to have an effect on an audio frequency. That's why the characteristic impedance of audio interconnect cables is not something most of us have anything to worry about. "

and

"First, you want to drive the cable with an electrical source that has an output impedance equal to the characteristic impedance of the cable, so that all of the source's output power goes into the cable, rather than being reflected from the cable's input end back into the source. Second, you want the electrical load on the output end of the cable, to have an input impedance equal to the characteristic impedance of the cable, so that all of the power goes into the load rather than being reflected from the load back into the cable. "


Emotiva cables have an Impedance: .03316 ohm. Is that low, normal, high?

I suppose cable impedance isn't the same as capacitance?

[E-Stat]

Dr. E-Stat, quick - whats the prescription for my affliction?!
First, determine empirically where you stand. Most phono preamps have some inherent capacitance at their input. Find out what that is. My two preamps are vastly different. The Audio Research starts with 560 pF while the Bellari VP-129 has 145 pF. In the former case, I use a moving coil so it really doesn't matter and I use low cap cables. If, however, I wanted to use the Shure, I would change the loading capacitor to a different value. For the Bellari, I would NOT want to use the 12.5 pF/ ft BJC cables because the value would be too low. Instead, I use some higher capacitance (44 pF/ft) DH Labs BC-1s. My combo works out to about 290 pF - close enough.


What cables would you suggest? ...But really, what do you suggest then because the Monoprice isn't going to cut it in terms of depth and detail. (btw - Dr. E-Stat EDIT "i mean not being sarcastic" is being sarcastic. I think that is a great nickname for you now, and I've had a lot of coffee tonight so my brain is going a little crazy!)
LOL! If the loading is too little, the standard way would be to change the loading resistor at the phono input at little expense rather than trying to find a matching cable or to use a higher cap cheapo that sacrifices overall quality. At this point, all I can do is speculate given the circumstances.

rw

[Feanor]

...
"First, you want to drive the cable with an electrical source that has an output impedance equal to the characteristic impedance of the cable, so that all of the source's output power goes into the cable, rather than being reflected from the cable's input end back into the source. Second, you want the electrical load on the output end of the cable, to have an input impedance equal to the characteristic impedance of the cable, so that all of the power goes into the load rather than being reflected from the load back into the cable. "
...
I suppose cable impedance isn't the same as capacitance?

This signal "relection" is apparently a serious consideration in case of digital signals. Pertaining to it, I've heard that a S/PDIF cable ought to be either very short, (< 9") or very long (> 30') in order to reduce relections which are a major cause of jitter. (I use a 30' coax between my compter and my DAC.)

Maybe some wiser person can clarify, but I understand that the basic qualities of cables (any passive electric circuit) are (1) impedance, (2) capacitance, and (3) inductance.

For cables, a heavier gauge will reduce impedance but increase capacitance and inductance. Measures can be take to reduce capacitance but these will usually (or always?) increase inductance, and vice versa.

[poppachubby]

You know, for vinyl conversion, my Bellari 130 and Shure pre-amps are too aggressive sounding. I bought a Music hall MMF to try something different. Now I'm wondering if cabling could make a difference, gonna try some different config's today.

[atomicAdam]

Dr. E-Stat -

I may have found a solution, or something to try. It appears I can set my capacitive load with jumpers inside the box.

http://simaudio.com/pdf/MOON_LP3_Manual.pdf

"End-user adjustable impedance loading (100 and 47k ohms).
End-user adjustable capacitance loading (0 and 100pF)."

Don't tell me yet, let me try to suggest which setting I should use. And then lmk if that sounds correct. Will post in a bit, time for shower and getting the day going.

[atomicAdam]

Actually it appears there are only 2 settings.

So I am going to try moving the capacitive jumpers to to 0pF because that is closer to the BJC 12.2pF.

I can't really tell about the resistance of the BJC, here is the notes page, it seems they say they are about 75Ohms: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/LC1-design-notes.htm

Since that is between 47-100 I'm not sure. I guess I'll just have to try both.

[frenchmon]

Adam, take a look at these cables. I just might have to give them a listen.

http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=1343

Thats $79 for the pair!


I've got a pair of silver cables from Aural Thrills. List was $499. In my opinion silver is best used with gear that's bass heavy as the silver kinda shields the bottom end a bit. The silver will give you very good mid and a very detailed high end, but it seems to tame the bottom.

frenchmon

[atomicAdam]

I've got a pair of silver cables from Aural Thrills. List was $499. In my opinion silver is best used with gear that's bass heavy as the silver kinda shields the bottom end a bit. The silver will give you very good mid and high end, but it seems to tame the bottom.

frenchmon

That is interesting. I'll have to hear how my system sounds after I play with the Phono Stage settings and after the ICs JohnMichael is going to let me try. If none of those tame the bass, maybe best to give the silver cables a chance.

[E-Stat]

You know, for vinyl conversion, my Bellari 130 and Shure pre-amps are too aggressive sounding.
Hmmm. I wouldn't characterize that combo as aggressive sounding in my system. I would use the term "mellow" as compared to the greater clarity of the Audio Research / Dynavector combo. It's sins are more of omission. Could be a loading issue. You may also be hearing the hard, bright manifestation of RFI which is highly present near computers. I run the Bellari through a conditioner and use shielded ICs.

rw

[E-Stat]

Actually it appears there are only 2 settings. So I am going to try moving the capacitive jumpers to to 0pF because that is closer to the BJC 12.2pF.
It looks like I didn't explain the situation very clearly. What you want is to achieve a total of somewhere between 250 and 300 pF of capacitance between the phono preamp's loading and that of the cable. Less than that is bad. More than that is bad. This is a Goldilocks scenario where the sweet spot is somewhere around 250-300 pF. If your BJC's are 1 meter, that represents only about 40 pF. You need at least 210 more. I think you'll still be short choosing 100 pF as the starting point for the preamp loading. You would then need for the BJC cable to be about four meters long. Alternatively, you may need to add a loading capacitor to the preamp. Or try some higher cap cables (but not crappy ones).


I can't really tell about the resistance of the BJC
Don't worry about resistance in this case. It is all about capacitance and a characteristic that really has no metric per se, shielding. Which, BTW, the BJC cable does well.

rw

[frenchmon]

That is interesting. I'll have to hear how my system sounds after I play with the Phono Stage settings and after the ICs JohnMichael is going to let me try. If none of those tame the bass, maybe best to give the silver cables a chance.

The only time I ever heard Monitor Audio was when I live in Carolina. Tweeters had just bought out one of the local audio shops that carried MA speakers. I had a chance to listen to the floor stander and stand monitors. I think both pair came with some plugs for the ported hole in the back of the speakers. Well my impression of both the floorstanders and the stand monitors where that they both where heavy in the bottom end. Silver may be just what you need. Also...the BJC you have are a new cable...they may settle down after a little burn in...but not every one believes in burn in.

frenchmon

[poppachubby]

Hmmm. I wouldn't characterize that combo as aggressive sounding in my system. I would use the term "mellow" as compared to the greater clarity of the Audio Research / Dynavector combo. It's sins are more of omission. Could be a loading issue. You may also be hearing the hard, bright manifestation of RFI which is highly present near computers. I run the Bellari through a conditioner and use shielded ICs.

rw

Perhaps aggressive was a poor choice, harsh maybe? I hooked up a basic line level pre-amp, you know the 24.99 type and I got instant results. I have been working on a project for the better part of a month now, I have figured out Audacity but there was definitely as issue in terms of sound. I have an old Shure M65 and of course the Bellari. This issue is only present for recordings E-Stat. Playback is great and sounds wonderful...perhaps there is more to Audacity that I need to know.

[atomicAdam]

The only time I ever heard Monitor Audio was when I live in Carolina. Tweeters had just bought out one of the local audio shops that carried MA speakers. I had a chance to listen to the floor stander and stand monitors. I think both pair came with some plugs for the ported hole in the back of the speakers. Well my impression of both the floorstanders and the stand monitors where that they both where heavy in the bottom end. Silver may be just what you need. Also...the BJC you have are a new cable...they may settle down after a little burn in...but not every one believes in burn in.

frenchmon

Well, I not sure if I can say they are bass heavy or not compared to others in the price range, but I can say at the moment, with the new TT and phono amp and BJC the bass is way more present than with the TT phono and Monoprice cables, or compared to either CD player I have. But it is very detailed, with the bungs in the speakers. Would be wonderful if listened to rap, reggae, drum&bass, etc etc...

[atomicAdam]

It looks like I didn't explain the situation very clearly. What you want is to achieve a total of somewhere between 250 and 300 pF of capacitance between the phono preamp's loading and that of the cable. Less than that is bad. More than that is bad. This is a Goldilocks scenario where the sweet spot is somewhere around 250-300 pF. If your BJC's are 1 meter, that represents only about 40 pF. You need at least 210 more. I think you'll still be short choosing 100 pF as the starting point for the preamp loading. You would then need for the BJC cable to be about four meters long. Alternatively, you may need to add a loading capacitor to the preamp. Or try some higher cap cables (but not crappy ones).


Don't worry about resistance in this case. It is all about capacitance and a characteristic that really has no metric per se, shielding. Which, BTW, the BJC cable does well.

rw

Thanks E-Stat, I understand better now. Funny how the guys at the hifi shop didn't go into that with me. oh well...

[Mr Peabody]

Be sure to post back Blackraven, that should be an interesting shoot out.

[atomicAdam]

i just got on a loan a set up Granite Audio #470 IC cables. Dang things MSRP at almost the price of the Rega P3/24. Will be interesting to hear what they sound like. So, that is what I am going to go do.

[blackraven]

Here's another review comparing BJC's to AQ copperheads.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63595

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting, he came to pretty much my conclusion when I compared BJC to Transparent. Except I never found the BJC to allow "flabby" bass. The better cables gave better definition in the bottom end and allowed more bass in my comparison. He was using Jolida so it may be the BJC was still accurate and the AQ just tightened things up a bit.

Any way the BJC are good cables for the money and do fine up to a point or a certain level of gear, this to be determined by owner.

[atomicAdam]

I've the the BJC in my PS1 at the moment. Haven't had a chance to sit down a listen, been cleaning the apt. But from quick observation, I had to put the bungs in the bass port of the speakers. I think in my set up, the BJC makes things bass heavier.

I'am going to play around with stuff in a bit, and do an A/B comparison to the Monoprice. As well compare the two CD players I have.

[blackraven]

Interesting, he came to pretty much my conclusion when I compared BJC to Transparent. Except I never found the BJC to allow "flabby" bass. The better cables gave better definition in the bottom end and allowed more bass in my comparison.

I don't understand that either. I don't see how IC's can make bass flabby.
My good friend is using a pair of BJC's instead of his $350pr MIT cables. We cant tell the difference between the 2 in his system. He's using a Bell's hotrod amp, audioresearch hybrid pre, marantz sa8001 cdp and PSB synchrony's.

With that being said, I'm ordering a pair of BJC's today. I'll give a review on them as well.

[JoeE SP9]

I've got some 12 gauge speaker cable right now. I think I'll just get a set of spade and banana ends and terminate them correctly. I've got a bunch of CAT5 around that I was going to try to weave into some speaker cable at some point. I'll see how that goes.

A word to the wise. The full bore (54 strand?) CAT-5 speaker is highly capacitive/reactive and can cause ultrasonic instability in some amps. My Adcom GFA-545's did not like it. My Haflers and Dyna's had no problem. I had to install Zobel networks in the cables to cure the instability. I no longer use them. I'm currently using DH Labs Silver Sonic T-14. I'm very satisfied with its sound and the price ($250 6Ft pair) is IMO quite reasonable for Continuous Crystal Silver plated Copper.

[Mr Peabody]

There should be a difference between BJC and MIT, I wonder what the problem is. MIT is similar to Transparent as those who started Transparent came from MIT. Even though I had entry level Transparent the difference between that and BJC was obvious and that's with using an Adcom amp. Well, I also used a headphone amp and other tests but it was still obvious with the Adcom. Isn't the Belles tubed? I wonder if that's it? But it shouldn't be if it's a revealing tube amp. I don't have a problem discerning differences when switching things in the CJ system. I did not like the synergy with Transparent in the CJ system though.

It just depends on what he meant by "flabby". I know when we put the Monoprice in the system the bass became a murky bass blob in comparison to the detail we were able to hear in the BJC. He did mention the AQ tightened up the bass so maybe he just meant with BJC it was looser or thicker sounding.

[Mr Peabody]

BTW, good info JoeE

[blackraven]

Mr. P, the Belles amp is SS. Honest we could not hear any difference between the cable's so he just left the BJC's in place. I'm going to ask him if I can try out the MIT cables if he is not using them in his new HT set up in his basement. If I can borrow them I'll try them in my system. It could be that our 50 year old ears! I know my high freq. hearing is not what it once was.

[Mr Peabody]

Blackraven if you can typically hear differences between brands your hearing is probably as good as any one. I believe you, it's just odd. I'm assuming you all know the MIT are directional due to the networks?

[hermanv]

I'm a little late to the party, but I have two comments:

1. Weakest link definitely applies when evaluating cables. i.e. truly first class cables tend to run in the $500/meter and up. Don't buy these for a Radio Shack receiver you wont hear any improvement over moderately priced cables. On the other hand if you have a $10,000 system, I'd stay away from the $75 cables.

2. For the DIY builder, the dielectric constant for cotton is low only for an expanded cotton like a cotton ball. This kind of cotton is mostly air, hence the nice low dielectric constant. For a pure cotton rope, tightly woven I think you'll find it's closer to 2.0.

Having tried various DIY cables, I think you find that a pure silver conductor, a foamed Teflon dielectric, a nice outer wrap and some really good RCA jacks gets you into a price range that is competitive with some of the more expensive commercial cables.

Happy listening.