Vintage Receivers

[foamdust]

Hi,

I'm looking to create a simple receiver, 2 speaker system, using a vintage receiver and modern speakers. I was thinking maybe a Mcintosh 1700 if I can find one thats not too expensive. I'm not an audio enthusiast, but appreciate good sound. I've looked through lot of vintage stereo sites and ebay and have come to the consensus that a Mcintosh would be the ultimate vintage receiver to get. My questions to those here in the know are...Do the vintage Mcintosh receivers sound that much better than say a Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui, etc. of the same vintage? Are there other vintage receivers that can hold their own to a Mc that are less expensive? I've also heard that a good vintage receiver in good working order sounds better than those on the market today. T? F? Last question...How do digital components such as CD players sound when run through a vintage receiver? Thanks for any input.

[dakatabg]

Mcintosh 1700 is rated 45W and it was made 1967 to 1973! It is a great amp and I had the chance to heart it only once! Great receiver! It is rated 45W but it sounds like it has 5 times more! It will cost you around $500 to get it! It is true that most of the old vintage receivers sound much better than the new receivers!

[foamdust]

Thanks for your reply. I'll keep looking at the auctions.

[poppachubby]

I presently run a Marantz 1515 and a Harmon Kardon 930 Twin. I have in the wings an HK 630 Twin and a Citizen JSA-8. These are all vintage of varying power. The Marantz is only rated at 15 wpc and can rock like any other amp. There are several reasons as to why a vintage amp can run over alot of average modern amps. However, a good current hi-fi amp can generally overcome a vintage amp. It all really depends on which models are being discussed.

Yes, these amps can roll with modern equipment. I run a CDP into all of them and it sounds fantastic. Another method to improve sound would be to purchase a DAC, that's a digital to analog convertor for further improved audio. You will find that most vintage receivers/tuners have superior tuning ability and lock a signal much better than most of todays stuff. My Citizen, which is integrated, has an amazing phono stage which doesn't require a pre amp.

Macs are fantastic machines. It's not so much about the make, but more about the model. It's like comparing apples and oranges without looking at a specific model's specs. The 1700 is a nice unit.

I will say that Harmon Kardon and Marantz are both fantastic names in vintage gear. Try looking for the 2238 by Marantz or any of the Twin series by HK. On the less powerful side, 20 wpc, the Marantz 2220 is a legendary machine.

BTW, welcome to AR!!! Stick around and ask any questions, lots of knowledge here, in vintage gear also...

[thekid]

Welcome to AR! Vintage gear is not real popular here but there are few of us around that still like to discuss and collect it. You can certainly go back through my posts and see that there are some great deals to be had in vintage gear if you are persistent. I think collecting vintage gear is a great way to enjoy audio without breaking the bank.

I am not familiar with the 1700 so I can't comment specfically on it. In general McIntosh certainly makes great gear but are primarily known for their great amps/pre-amps more so than their receivers. When you are talking vintage receivers there are a few brands out there by manufacturers who still exist but whose reputation today is different than it was 30-40 years ago. The Marantz 22XX series, the upper end Pioneer SX silver series(generally 750 on up), Luxman or early Sansui are great sounding vintage pieces you may want to consider. I would not rule out separates either unless space is a concern. Buying vintage gear is no different than buying new gear in the sense that you should do some homework and make sure of what features you need or the quality of those features that you are going to use the most.

As to whether vintage gear sounds better well that is probably a matter of personal preference like everything else when it comes to sound. In some ways it is an "apples and oranges" topic. I use current "modern" receivers to run my HT systems for obvious reasons but listen to music almost exclusively on vintage receivers and speakers. Like Poppa I use a modern transport/DAC set up to play CD's through my vintage gear and it sounds great.

My last piece of advice when looking at vintage receivers is not to neccessarily be fooled by their wpc ratings. A solid 20-25 wpc vintage receiver can produce as much or more power than a lot of your BOTL or mid-level reciever's in todays market. Power ratings and the power produced back then were much purer and more accurate.

Good luck!

[poppachubby]

Speaking of which kid, I felt prompted to send the Technics direct to the 1515. Herbie Hancock's "Man-Child" sounds warm and smooth. Soundstage is clear and surprisingly accurate. It has a little trouble with complex bits, particularily horns, in terms of placement, however can still seperate quite nicely.

Bottom line, they just don't make em like they used to. I hope you see through your plan foamdust, don't let anyone sway you. I'm swimming in a sea of beautiful tone right now...

[theebadone]

I cant say much about mcintosh receivers, but their separates are of very high quality, and bring top dollar, even in todays economy. The older macs have the very desirable autoformers, which protect the amp and the speakers. And the sound is superb. I use 2 old mcintosh amps and preamps, and they are the nicest sounding equipment i have heard to date. I also have vintage sansui and kenwood, which get no play time since i bought the macs. GREAT STUFF!!!

[foamdust]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I got into this vintage receiver thing after browsing the ebay vintage receiver section. I've always heard than Mcintosh makes some of the best products (with the price to go along with it) and the one thing that I like about the Macs and other vintage receivers is the simplicity and the lights and meters. I've also been looking at other options and one receiver that has caught my eye with its asthetics and performance (from what I've been reading on the internet) is the Harmon Kardon 330 series. Anyways I'm having fun doing all the research and again thanks for all your help.

[poppachubby]

Sounds great fd. I am a huge HK fanboy. The Macs have a great aesthetic, but as you've already found out, you must pay for it. Even today, Mac maintain their trademark alien green glow and vintage meters. One of my local dealers carries the newer stuff, it sounds amazing!! Here's a new C500...

http://www.drhifihousecalls.com.au/New%20Equipment/McIntosh/C500/c500preamp-front_preamp-s%5B1%5D.jpg

Let us know when you pull the trigger and on what...

[Feanor]

Sounds great fd. I am a huge HK fanboy. The Macs have a great aesthetic, but as you've already found out, you must pay for it. Even today, Mac maintain their trademark alien green glow and vintage meters. One of my local dealers carries the newer stuff, it sounds amazing!! Here's a new C500...

http://www.drhifihousecalls.com.au/New%20Equipment/McIntosh/C500/c500preamp-front_preamp-s%5B1%5D.jpg

Let us know when you pull the trigger and on what...

Yeah, PC, I like the Macs too. On the other hand a lot of people consider them 'way too garish.

IMO, the older ones were the best looking, for example, this C28 preamp, (1970-78) ...
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/McIntosh_C28-700.jpg

Still, the current ones are mighty nice, like this MA2275 tube integrated ...
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/images/products/ma2275-front_integratedamps-l.jpg

[poppachubby]

Oh that's a beaut Bill!! I actually was in london Audio recently and they had a Linn table hooked into a similar Mac, might have even been the same model. It sounded like the voice of God himself... Not sure what model of Linn it was, but does it matter? The table is valued at 20K!!

[theebadone]

The macs are tough to beat. Here is a couple in action, the 2505, and the 250

[poppachubby]

The macs are tough to beat. Here is a couple in action, the 2505, and the 250

How about some close up action Bone-dawggy?

[theebadone]

ok lol comin up

[theebadone]

here they are, the 2505 is pushing the A7s and the 250 is pushin the 878As santiagos. lol My neighbors just love me.

[poppachubby]

Wow!! So nice!! Your first pic did no justice whatsoever. Great looking piece, ya "F" your neighbours, that baby is just begging to be cranked.

[E-Stat]

Here's a new C500...
Actually, that's only the solid state gain stage. You're missing the control center. I'm still wondering what anyone would do with meters on a preamp...

rw

[poppachubby]

Actually, that's only the solid state gain stage. You're missing the control center. I'm still wondering what anyone would do with meters on a preamp...

rw

But that's just it E-Stat, they look so damn cool, who cares?!?

[E-Stat]

But that's just it E-Stat, they look so damn cool, who cares?!?
I confess that I'm not a big fan of that aesthetic. I prefer the real life "instrument quality" look that you would find at a NASA or military installation as found on Audio Research gear (among others). On the other hand, they spend a lot of time with the glass. Business took me to Binghamton, NY last year and I toured their plant. The glass panels are cut with a Flo-Jet high speed water cutter. They have a display that shows all seven stages a panel goes through the complete etching process. They have a device that accurately measures the temperature of the illumination to ensure proper matching. There's a lady at the end of the production line who has the final say over everything that leaves the building. At the end of the plant tour, I was able to hear their demo system using their top end stuff. Very nice, but definitely not the best I've heard. If you ever make it there, ask for Tony Frontera. He's a super nice guy and will give you quite a tour.

rw

[poppachubby]

I confess that I'm not a big fan of that aesthetic. I prefer the real life "instrument quality" look that you would find at a NASA or military installation as found on Audio Research gear (among others). On the other hand, they spend a lot of time with the glass. Business took me to Binghamton, NY last year and I toured their plant. The glass panels are cut with a Flo-Jet high speed water cutter. They have a display that shows all seven stages a panel goes through the complete etching process. They have a device that accurately measures the temperature of the illumination to ensure proper matching. There's a lady at the end of the production line who has the final say over everything that leaves the building. At the end of the plant tour, I was able to hear their demo system using their top end stuff. Very nice, but definitely not the best I've heard. If you ever make it there, ask for Tony Frontera. He's a super nice guy and will give you quite a tour.

rw

Sounds nice, actually my local Linn dealer toured their newer facility in Scotland and had many good things to say. As a labourer and trained machinist, I found it remarkable to learn that the tolerances at Linn are among the most accurate of any industry out there. He also said the factory has floor to ceiling windows overlooking the Scotish countryside, whereas the office staff's regular sized windows, overlooked the parking lot.

Interesting indeed, at Linn, it matters not how inspired the accountant is, and they know it. I have had some training with Flo-Jet but have not used it in a practical setting, it's a remarkable system.

Anyhow, it's clear that you don't favour meters. Keep in mind I was just born when meters were a state of the art affair. For me, they are as much novelty as practical measuring tool. I just love the look, what can I say.

Hey E? Keep in mind, pre-amps and meters are not mutually exclusive, I mean they are...wait a sec....

[E-Stat]

Anyhow, it's clear that you don't favour meters.
They provide a certain utility with power amps to help determine clipping. The problem is that they like the LED ladders on my Threshold amp are not fast enough to accurately assess peak output power. Your ears can hear when the amp clips before the meters figure it out - unless of course you have the McIntosh compressor circuit. Which is another mystery to me. You compromise the signal integrity with a circuit that monitors the output and compresses the signal when someone is incapable of controlling the gain. Call me crazy, but I like wide dynamic range. But, with a preamp? Have you ever clipped a preamp? My Audio Research preamp can deliver 50 volts to an amp that only requires 1.3 V for maximum output. What possible useful information does it impart? In fact, I bypass the preamp altogether for the CDP because it can fully drive the amp to clipping by itself. Meters on a preamp are as useless as tits on a bull. Or, the big fat meter on the Mac turntable which is a rebadged Clearaudio unit. It is used to indicate speed. So, you're listening to Christina Aguilera and are thinking "why does she sound like Lurch (or Alvin the Chipmunk)? What on earth could be wrong? I'm just not into gratuitous gee-wizardry. Then again, you might be able to find an MPI-4 Maximum Performance Indicator (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1260747008&/Mcintosh-MPI4-maximum-performa) to light up your wall!



Hey E? Keep in mind, pre-amps and meters are not mutually exclusive, I mean they are...wait a sec....
Let's no go there! :)

rw

[poppachubby]

I've never seen or heard a Mac TT. No your right, and it's not the first time I've heard that reasoning. LED's are wicked slow but again, wicked cool E!! Hahaha...I definitely use my ears, the only meters I've used that I can think of are in the Audacity vinyl conversion program.

BTW, Christina Aguilera? Well I wouldn't have put you on it but hey....oh BTW E, can you look at my cabinet thread, scroll down and view the photo with the speakers in it. What do you suggest as the best solution to deal with slack speaker cable? I've been told to just run it back and forth....

[E-Stat]

I've never seen or heard a Mac TT.
No? You get the Elphaba Signature Model glowing green platter AND the useless meter!

http://www.audiofederation.com/hifiing/2008/CES2008/report/1000/floor_29_C1/MEDIUM_RELEASE_IMG_5268.jpg



What do you suggest as the best solution to deal with slack speaker cable? I've been told to just run it back and forth....
You may not like my answer. Cut and re-terminate it.

rw

[theebadone]

wow nice tt do you have a mac cd player too? they do make very nice sounding equipment

[E-Stat]

wow nice tt do you have a mac cd player too? they do make very nice sounding equipment
That is a show picture from CES. I don't own any Mac gear.

rw

[theebadone]

They provide a certain utility with power amps to help determine clipping. The problem is that they like the LED ladders on my Threshold amp are not fast enough to accurately assess peak output power. Your ears can hear when the amp clips before the meters figure it out - unless of course you have the McIntosh compressor circuit. Which is another mystery to me. You compromise the signal integrity with a circuit that monitors the output and compresses the signal when someone is incapable of controlling the gain. Call me crazy, but I like wide dynamic range. But, with a preamp? Have you ever clipped a preamp? My Audio Research preamp can deliver 50 volts to an amp that only requires 1.3 V for maximum output. What possible useful information does it impart? In fact, I bypass the preamp altogether for the CDP because it can fully drive the amp to clipping by itself. Meters on a preamp are as useless as tits on a bull. Or, the big fat meter on the Mac turntable which is a rebadged Clearaudio unit. It is used to indicate speed. So, you're listening to Christina Aguilera and are thinking "why does she sound like Lurch (or Alvin the Chipmunk)? What on earth could be wrong? I'm just not into gratuitous gee-wizardry. Then again, you might be able to find an MPI-4 Maximum Performance Indicator (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1260747008&/Mcintosh-MPI4-maximum-performa) to light up your wall!



Let's no go there! :)

rw
ITS NOT WHATS ON THE OUTSIDE, ITS WHAT IS ON THE INSIDE THAT COUNTS :3:

[E-Stat]

ITS NOT WHATS ON THE OUTSIDE, ITS WHAT IS ON THE INSIDE THAT COUNTS :3:
Indeed. They take the $6000 Clearaudio Avant Garde Magnum (http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Avant-Garde-Magnum-CMB-Turntable-w-Satisfy;jsessionid=0a010c641f43792b20b488a14cbda12 6ab45f6caeaec.e3eSc3mSaxuPe34Pa38Ta38Lbxz0?sc=2&category=347) and add $3000 worth of cosmetics. As for me, I would much rather have the higher performance Anniversary AMG (http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Anniversary-AMG-Wood-CMB-Turntable;jsessionid=0a010c641f43792b20b488a14cbda 126ab45f6caeaec.e3eSc3mSaxuPe34Pa38Ta38Lbxz0?sc=2&category=347) model with the Souther designed arm for a bit more and forego the light show from Wicked

rw

[dakatabg]

That amp looks so cool!

[squidboyw]

Hello Foamdust,

I split my time between vintage and newer equipment. I would not attempt to dissuade you from finding your Mac receiver. I do think there are other brands with units that you would probably find just as appealing. As mentioned by theKid, Pioneer made some well regarded receivers (I have 2 SX-1010, a SX-880, a SX-780, and a SX-750), was well as Marantz , and Sony. I would consider some of the Sonys like the STR7055 or Kenwood KR9400 - 9600. There are others, but those were TOTL

The one thing I would keep in mind is that with these older units, cap failure is an issue. Every one of the vintage pieces in my collect had at least a few caps that were going bad. If you pop the top and look at caps, anything that has the shrink pulled off the top and is going down the sides is a cap in the process of failure. The unit may turn on and play, but it is no where near the top of its form. My practice has been to replace all of the caps, and often, some resistors and diodes too. Some vintage units have active components that are no longer made. Some cap failures can take those parts out, and then you just have an old fancy doorstop instead of a fine old vintage receiver.

[squeegy200]

Mcintosh 1700 is rated 45W and it was made 1967 to 1973! It is a great amp and I had the chance to heart it only once! Great receiver! It is rated 45W but it sounds like it has 5 times more! It will cost you around $500 to get it! It is true that most of the old vintage receivers sound much better than the new receivers!

I had a MAC 1700 for awhile. It's a hybrid Tube/Transistor receiver. It was far better than most of the receivers that I had on hand to compare against. But I have to admit, I was anticipating much more based on its reputation and eventually sold it. I used it to drive Dahquist DQ-10s and Magneplaner MG-1s. It did very well with those speakers. Its reputation and resale value remains high in the used market. If you are looking for a receiver, there isn't anything else out there with more cache. If you can get a good price on a functional unit, and a vintage receiver is your goal, then you will not be disappointed.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ymqtEqbJfmo/SAMDGtgZ_fI/AAAAAAAACiM/t8l-SC6XSVA/s720/5.JPG
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ymqtEqbJfmo/SAMDHtgZ_gI/AAAAAAAACiU/D-ZBJ9IsJUk/s640/3.JPG