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Chamai
10-20-2009, 03:28 AM
Just going to introduce myself a little here.

My name is Arthur and I am 23 and I have been playing the piano since I was 4 and played various instruments such as drums, flute, electric guitar and bass too. I know this is not a music forum but I just want to say that I know how instruments sound like and I know what kind of sound I am looking for. Few months ago for some reason, I just realize that I have been playing so much music, but never really sat down to enjoy music. I almost never read any audio and video magazines or anything like that. I do have some surround sound bundle system that came with my flat screen tv's. Those are crap ofcourse. i had to replace the speakers with my old school technics floor standing speakers because they sucked so much. So right now, I just play with EQ and make the best of whatever I have.

So here is what I have planned out. I am going to go to some stores next week and just walk around and try out different setups. I plan on building a home theatre system that allows me to listen to stereo music, watch movies.

I know how CD's are made and how much compression is used when a CD is made. So I am not trying to bring out the natural sound of the CD because everything is compressed like hell already. I want my system to give me some option of fiddling with EQ's.

CD mixes always sound really FLAT, and one-dimensional to me. To me, tube amps tend to give more dimension to the mix when I listen to vocals and piano music. It also gives the tone more warmth imo. Maybe I don't know what I am talking about but thats what I hear. So I am going to start looking at tubes first rather than SS I am going for the pre amp/amp route ofcourse. So I am looking for a setup that gives me a lot of options to fiddle around with EQ.

As for the CD player, I am going to need some help with this. I really don't know whats the difference between a cheap one vs an expensive one. My uncle sells a lot of high end audio gear, but he is pretty biased so thats why I need you guys to help me heh.

Speakers is probably going to be just as hard in choosing the amps because I have to try them paired with the amps at the same time. Or else I am really playing with luck here.

As for SUBS, all I am asking for is accurate response time and smooth.

So as for the sound I am looking for. I am looking for warmth, and dimension. I want feel as close to the music as I can if that makes any sense. I know how the music sound largely depend of the final mix of the CD, but I want to achieve that "live sound." When I close my eyes, I DON'T want to know that the music is coming out of speakers.

also, if i want to hook up additional speakers for a 5.1 setup, what do I need?


as for budget. I think around $14000 CAD. I am pretty flexible as long as it is worth it. Again, I am a noob when it comes to audio gear.

EDIT- i listen to, pop, pop rock, classical, metal, death metal. the room is just a regular living room with wooden tile floor. walls are dry wall. i live in Canada so everything is made out of wood. haha

this system ofcourse will be hooked up to the TV. I also have computer and PS3 hooked up to it too.


thanks guys.

Worf101
10-20-2009, 03:44 AM
Welcome aboard. I'm sure your questions will be answered, in time, by some of the more savvy denizens round here. I hope you find all the information you desire and have some fun too.

Da Worfster

blackraven
10-20-2009, 08:35 AM
Thats a great budget you have there and you will have lots of options. If you are worried about compression of music on CD's, I would strongly consider going with an SACD player. Like one of these Marantz players- http://us.marantz.com/Products/616.asp Or one of the Ayre players http://www.ayre.com/products.cfm What type of music do you like to listen too?

For that live sound, I would consider looking at the Magnepan MG 3.6 speakers if you have the room. http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_36

Other speakers I really like like are Thiels http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/CS2_4/CS2.4se.shtml

PSB Synchrony one's made in canada- http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Synchrony/Synchrony-One

Acouple of other speakers to consider are Dynaudio and Salk's.


For an amp and preamp, I would consider these companies- Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Ayre, McIntosh, Krell. I would consider going with a Vacuum tube set up for a warmer richer sound.

blackraven
10-20-2009, 12:43 PM
Sorry, I didn't realize that your looking for 5.1ch. Here's an amp to consider- http://www.parasound.com/halo/a51.php I have the 2ch version and its a great amp.

For a nice sounding sub, i would recommend these subs-
http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_b3.htm

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_r305.htm

http://www.velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=4&sid=994y488g

http://www.velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=37&sid=994y488g

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/speaker_intro/grotto_i.html

As far as a 5.1ch preamp, I'll leave that to someone else.

However, you may want to consider doing a 2ch system with a preamp that has a home theater bypass.

Chamai
10-20-2009, 01:23 PM
Welcome aboard. I'm sure your questions will be answered, in time, by some of the more savvy denizens round here. I hope you find all the information you desire and have some fun too.

Da Worfster

thanks for the warm welcome!

Chamai
10-20-2009, 02:43 PM
Thats a great budget you have there and you will have lots of options. If you are worried about compression of music on CD's, I would strongly consider going with an SACD player. Like one of these Marantz players- http://us.marantz.com/Products/616.asp Or one of the Ayre players http://www.ayre.com/products.cfm What type of music do you like to listen too?

For that live sound, I would consider looking at the Magnepan MG 3.6 speakers if you have the room. http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_36

Other speakers I really like like are Thiels http://www.thielaudio.com/THIEL_Site05/Pages/models/Current_Models/CS2_4/CS2.4se.shtml

PSB Synchrony one's made in canada- http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Synchrony/Synchrony-One

Acouple of other speakers to consider are Dynaudio and Salk's.


For an amp and preamp, I would consider these companies- Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Ayre, McIntosh, Krell. I would consider going with a Vacuum tube set up for a warmer richer sound.

i listen to, pop, pop rock, classical, heavy metal and death metal. no jazz though~ nth against jazz.

the first brand i plan to check out is Mcintosh. honestly i have never had the oppertunity to listen to their products before. the appearance of Mcintosh just catches my eyes for some reason.

so here is the question. let say i have now purchased a pre amp/amp that supports HT bypass and i plan on adding 3 more speakers right now. are there any extra components i need to buy besides the 3 speakers?

i just want the tube sound~ but have 5.1 when i need to.

JoeE SP9
10-20-2009, 02:44 PM
Welcome to AR. If you want suggestions and opinions you need to give more information about what you listen to and the room you will be using. Be wary. You are going to get lots of different opinions about everything.

Chamai
10-20-2009, 02:57 PM
Welcome to AR. If you want suggestions and opinions you need to give more information about what you listen to and the room you will be using. Be wary. You are going to get lots of different opinions about everything.

thanks!
i am open up for any suggestions. i don't have much knowledge of hooking up electronics and i am not familiar with many audio terms too. i was just checking out the Mcintosh website and i see pictures of a bi amping and stuff. i really have no idea how most things work. all i have ever been exposed to are 2 ch stereo setups and recievers. anything fancier than that, i am clueless.

again, i listen to, pop, pop rock, classical, metal, death metal.

blackraven
10-20-2009, 03:38 PM
The best advice I can give you is to keep it simple (forget about biamping for now) and go and listen to equipment at high end audio stores with the type of music you listen to most. Make sure its well recorded. You may have trouble with metal and death metal as it is poorly recorded for the most part. Mcintosh is good equipment and has that eye candy appeal but there are a lot of better brands out there. I like Audio Research, Ayre and Conrad Johnson. I just wish I could afford those brands. I would strongly suggest you consider an SACD player if you listen to a lot of Classical music. Give a listen to the PSB Synchrony One's as it they should do well with your varied taste in music. Dynaudio would be a good fit for your tastes as well. Take a look at these Salk speakers. They sound great with tremendous bass, clarity and detail- http://www.salksound.com/speakers_veracity_ht3.shtml -They are some of the best speakers I have heard. Here are some reviews on them- http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/salk-sound/veracity-ht3/PRD_326177_1594crx.aspx The Magnepans will give you that live sound but really are not the best for hard rock. They excel at Classical, acoustic, jazz and vocal type music. They are a very revealing speaker and will really expose poorly recorded music.

With a budget of $14K, I would spend about $4-6K on speakers, $3k on an SACDP/CDP and the the rest on an amp and preamp.

Chamai
10-20-2009, 04:21 PM
The best advice I can give you is to keep it simple (forget about biamping for now) and go and listen to equipment at high end audio stores with the type of music you listen to most. Make sure its well recorded. You may have trouble with metal and death metal as it is poorly recorded for the most part. Mcintosh is good equipment and has that eye candy appeal but there are a lot of better brands out there. I like Audio Research, Ayre and Conrad Johnson. I just wish I could afford those brands. I would strongly suggest you consider an SACD player if you listen to a lot of Classical music. Give a listen to the PSB Synchrony One's as it they should do well with your varied taste in music. Dynaudio would be a good fit for your tastes as well. Take a look at these Salk speakers. They sound great with tremendous bass, clarity and detail- http://www.salksound.com/speakers_veracity_ht3.shtml -They are some of the best speakers I have heard. Here are some reviews on them- http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/salk-sound/veracity-ht3/PRD_326177_1594crx.aspx The Magnepans will give you that live sound but really are not the best for hard rock. They excel at Classical, acoustic, jazz and vocal type music. They are a very revealing speaker and will really expose poorly recorded music.

With a budget of $14K, I would spend about $4-6K on speakers, $3k on an SACDP/CDP and the the rest on an amp and preamp.

i will def check out the SACD. as for price, i am not gonna look at the price tag when i try the speakers just so i won't think the more it cost, the better it is. i just want the right sound for me. but i will def check the brands you suggested if my local stores have them. and i agree with you. most death metal and metal recording is crap. i really listen to a lot of pop and pop rock most of the time. classical is not something i always listen to, but i still do.

i guess i will buy a 2nd pair of speakers some day. it is the same for guitar as well. different amps work for different types of music.

thanks for the advice.

Chamai
10-21-2009, 01:58 AM
i was wondering, since i am getting a tube pre amp, i was suggested using vaccume tubes for the power amp as well. what effects and differences will i get when i am using a solid state power amp+ tube preamp.

and also, what do you guys use for power conditioning and voltage regulators.
thanks!

Rudy Gireyev
10-21-2009, 12:15 PM
Hey Arthur.

Since you said you are open to suggestions I thought I'd throw a couple of points out there and see what you and the rest of the gang think about them.

1. I find my home theater sound quality requirements to be well below those of my music reproduction requirement. And until we get a lot availability of audio material on Blu Ray format, the requirements of the two systems do not always call for the same things. Hence, many people including myself have chosen to separate the Home theater system from the pure 2 channel audio systems in their homes. I think that for me an inexpensive home theater system is just fine, whereas an inexpensive 2 channel audio system will no longer do.

2. Equalizers - I've found in the past, that for me equalizers have tended to mask the inherent problems of either my system or my setup. Thereby, preventing me from addressing the real issue and covering it up, and not particularly well, with somewhat distorted image of the music. Of course, this may have just been my experience, or my equipment or something else relevant only to me. But I thought I'd pass it along so you can be on the look out for it.

Enjoy your search, and when you have time go through some of the older threads on this board as there's a wealth of great info there.

Rudy

Erik1973
10-21-2009, 01:59 PM
I can only second blackraven: "The best advice I can give you is to keep it simple (forget about biamping for now) and go and listen to equipment at high end audio stores with the type of music you listen to most. Make sure its well recorded."

Take good recordings you know well, go different stores (with friends, if they're willing), and listen critically to as many different setups (as opposed to many similar setups) as you're willing to do. Figure out what you get for different amounts of money, and figure out what suits you best. Be critical. Listen. Ignore marketing, sales talks, and try to free yourself from any preconceived ideas you might have (tube vs. silicon, small vs. large speakers, cables, *anything* really).

You indicate a number of times that you don't know so much, and that you have $14000 CAD to spend. That's a serious amount of money, and there are (regrettably) very many audio places that will be more than happy to extract that kind of money from you while selling you snake oil, a good feeling, marketing blah, etc. Worst is, they may believe some of their crap themselves. I hate to say it, but be *very* *very* wary.

Ask your friends if they could act as a second level of reality check. One of my friends couldn't hear the differences between systems unless they were really big, but she helped a lot by arranging blind test for me. She would plug in amps/speakers, without telling me which, and I had to tell by sound alone. Huge eye-opener. Friends like that are invaluable. I can only recommend this approach. Don't buy somewhere they won't allow you to do this.

Also, determine the increase in performance vs. the increase in price at different price points. Remember that a good system alone is not enough, you also want a great collection of recordings. I used part of my budget for expanding my music collection, and in retrospect, I think that was a very good decision.

Good luck! Be critical, put in effort, and I'm sure you'll find an excellent system that will give you many years of great music experience. Enjoy! :-)

Kind regards,
Erik

Chamai
10-21-2009, 02:38 PM
hey guys~ thanks for the suggestions.
i will never let the sales guy know my budget. and before i go to the store, i will make sure i have enough knowledge before i go.

again, what do you guys do for voltage management and power conditioning?

LeRoy
10-21-2009, 06:41 PM
CDP...well stay away from the NAD 545!...its
got some glitches...

I recently purchased a Musical Fidelity X-Ray with the XXX-PSU from http://www.audioadvisor.com/ $799.00 plus shipping. I really enjoy this player.

If your budget can afford it check out CDP's from Lektor on
http://www.positive-feedback.com/

Lector Audio CDP-7T CD player PFO Issue 32
Lector Audio CDP-06t tubed CD player PFO Issue 34

Speakers: Mordaunt-Short

Reviews on the M.S. can be read
at http://www.mordauntshort.com/default.php


I am not familiar with vacuum tube H.T. amps or EQ's or really can't recommend a particular Sub....others here on this forum will surely help you out with that bit of info.

Happy shopping..

LeRoy

blackraven
10-21-2009, 06:54 PM
Don't spend more than $100 on a surge suppressor. I use a Cyber Power 1030HT.

JoeE SP9
10-21-2009, 07:35 PM
i was wondering, since i am getting a tube pre amp, i was suggested using vaccume tubes for the power amp as well. what effects and differences will i get when i am using a solid state power amp+ tube preamp.

and also, what do you guys use for power conditioning and voltage regulators.
thanks!

I use a hybrid preamp and both tube and SS amps. Tube amps drive my main speakers. SS is for my subs. I would suggest getting a working system together before thinking about bi-amping. Tube power amps of equivilent power as SS are much more expensive. A tube pre with SS power can work very well. The earlier the tubes are in the system the more benefit you will get from "tube" sound.

RGA
10-21-2009, 09:40 PM
Welcome my fellow Canadian to the world of forum advice - Eesh - you'll find it endless varied and for everyone who will recommend one speaker or amp someone else will recommend something completely different.

I would suggest you completely ignore every name that will be thrown at you for the time being. Your uncle is a high end dealer then if you trust your uncle go and listen to what he sells.

McIntosh is a solid choice but don't get too caught up with the looks over the sound. I know several people who swear by MAC amps and won't have anything else - I know just as many if not more that despise the sound. If you want sex appeal there is plenty of it out there.

I would make some observations - first you like the sound of tubes over SS - so do I. Don't count out all SS though or even digital designs which have improved immensely.

Still tubes have a certain magic. You need to consider with speakers is if it can do the job with what you want and how loud you want to play. Magnepan with death metal is a very bad move IMO. The speakers simply don't play loud enough or with any sort of real impact in bass region where drums live.

The trick then is finding a good Horn or HE speaker that can hit hard but at the same time be delicate enough to handle your softer musical preferences without become shouty or overbearing. You have to decide what speaker you like at the outset because that will determine what amp/source will be a good fit.

I will make one suggestion because they're a Canadian Company quite new to the audiophile scene but offer a tremendous amount of front end choices with regards to tube amplifiers. Because they are rebranding the top Chinese brands under their own nameplate the price performance ratio tends to be very high indeed. The company is Grant Fidelity - http://grantfidelity.com/site/catalog

Why suggest them - because as much as $14k may seem a lot - it can be spent up real fast. And generally I found GF gear to hit way above its weight class. Take the Rita 880 at $4200 this is a speaker that will drive practically everything - clocks in at a massive 100+ pounds (shipped in a crate not a box) and looks great, built as well as a top Krell and more to the point has the sonic chops to negotiate any music very well and is of course tubed. I'm not suggesting this amp over the rest of the amps out there - but what I am saying is that with $14k you want to buy the best loudspeaker you can possibly afford while getting top flight sound from your sources. Something like the Rita with a good source or two leaves tons left over for quality loudspeakers.

I can also say their Shengya Monoblocks are built about as well as amplifiers can be built and they sound very darn good. I don't like most stuff out of Canada - so I am happy to say that finally I really really do.

blackraven
10-21-2009, 10:07 PM
RGA, while I agree that Magnepans are a poor choice for hard rock and Chamai, they do play plenty loud and clear with the proper amp and power. I can play my 1.6's to crystal clear ear bleeding levels with 400wpc and 750watts of dynamic power. And the MG 20's do very well in the bass department. The 1.6's and 3.6's don't do too bad either when matched with the right amp, preamp and CDP.

poppachubby
10-22-2009, 12:04 AM
I don't like most stuff out of Canada - so I am happy to say that finally I really really do.


But as you already mentioned, it's really from China. These guys are Canadian in name and location only. Check Ebay and you will find about half of what Grant sells, with a Chinese badge, at half the price. I am Canadian and pride is the last thing I feel about Grant.

I was quite excited about their tube DAC-09, screaming their praises until the Rev. harley made this whopping discovery. http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230389974020&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

However, it IS great stuff and a good price. You couldn't be more correct about that.

Anyhow happy hunting OP!! 14 G's is a great budget and I must admit I am completely jealous. These days I have about $14.00 to spend on gear. I hope you find the sound you're looking for bro. Lot's of good help on AR.

Chamai
10-22-2009, 12:16 AM
Welcome my fellow Canadian to the world of forum advice - Eesh - you'll find it endless varied and for everyone who will recommend one speaker or amp someone else will recommend something completely different.

I would suggest you completely ignore every name that will be thrown at you for the time being. Your uncle is a high end dealer then if you trust your uncle go and listen to what he sells.

McIntosh is a solid choice but don't get too caught up with the looks over the sound. I know several people who swear by MAC amps and won't have anything else - I know just as many if not more that despise the sound. If you want sex appeal there is plenty of it out there.

I would make some observations - first you like the sound of tubes over SS - so do I. Don't count out all SS though or even digital designs which have improved immensely.

Still tubes have a certain magic. You need to consider with speakers is if it can do the job with what you want and how loud you want to play. Magnepan with death metal is a very bad move IMO. The speakers simply don't play loud enough or with any sort of real impact in bass region where drums live.

The trick then is finding a good Horn or HE speaker that can hit hard but at the same time be delicate enough to handle your softer musical preferences without become shouty or overbearing. You have to decide what speaker you like at the outset because that will determine what amp/source will be a good fit.

I will make one suggestion because they're a Canadian Company quite new to the audiophile scene but offer a tremendous amount of front end choices with regards to tube amplifiers. Because they are rebranding the top Chinese brands under their own nameplate the price performance ratio tends to be very high indeed. The company is Grant Fidelity - http://grantfidelity.com/site/catalog

Why suggest them - because as much as $14k may seem a lot - it can be spent up real fast. And generally I found GF gear to hit way above its weight class. Take the Rita 880 at $4200 this is a speaker that will drive practically everything - clocks in at a massive 100+ pounds (shipped in a crate not a box) and looks great, built as well as a top Krell and more to the point has the sonic chops to negotiate any music very well and is of course tubed. I'm not suggesting this amp over the rest of the amps out there - but what I am saying is that with $14k you want to buy the best loudspeaker you can possibly afford while getting top flight sound from your sources. Something like the Rita with a good source or two leaves tons left over for quality loudspeakers.

I can also say their Shengya Monoblocks are built about as well as amplifiers can be built and they sound very darn good. I don't like most stuff out of Canada - so I am happy to say that finally I really really do.

thanks for the input~

as for the brands. honestly, i don't know much brands. i plan on going to the store next week. i will try out as much things as i could. narrow down a few setups that i like, and i will report back to you guys heh.

Chamai
10-22-2009, 03:35 AM
as for SACD's. i decide not to go for it because simply i don't have any sacd's. most of my cd's are japanese pop and others are metal. and i did check out the list of artists who actually have released sacd's. there is nothing i probably will care about anyways. as for the cd player, i will probably just pick up an Arcam or Densen. i just remembered the subs that i heard @ my uncle's place are TRIAD gold series i think. so i am going to pick one up for sure. i will decide on the size once i go to the store.

RGA
10-22-2009, 08:42 PM
poppachubby

Yes there was a thread about this already. Grant Fidelity isn't hiding from this. There are several companies in fact that sell the exact same Tube DAC/09 under several labels - I've already seen 4 different company names for this piece of equipment.

Grant Fidelity, like I mentioned, is re-branding Chinese products under their own label. They have bought exclusive rights to the products which means units like the one you linked will disappear once they've been sold off.

The second issue is that Grant Fidelity is charging a fair bit more right now at $300 for the same units. However unlike the mail order from China units you actually get a warranty and support. And the actual sound of the unit is quite impressive does a pile of stuff and for $150 or $300 is quite excellent. It's not going to scare high end products but I can say it is a pretty impressive step up in most ways over my Cambridge Audio CD 6 (which was their top CD player in the late 1990's). Factor in that it's also a USB DAC and works as both a Solid State and Tube DAC and is also a full out tube or SS headphone amp and it is built quite well - it's really hard to complain.

Certainly you lose a bit of pride of ownership in that there could be a dozen clones out there and when you see the price of those you think gee if it's $150 it can't be any good. Me I'm surprised how much sound is on tap for this kind of money.

If you remember about 10 years ago, Antique Sound Labs - also a Chinese tube maker - put out $99 Wave 8 monoblocks (8 watts of class b tube power) and they were all the rage. This is basically the DAC/Preamp/Headphone amp version of the Wave 8's.

Basically what Grant Fidelity is trying to do is corner the Chinese high end market by making deals with their top manufacturers - Shegya, Consonance, Jungson. These companies have been making OEM products in North America for many years. Shengya has been operating under the Vincent label and Jungson apparently has been an OEM for a number of companies.

I think the DAC 09 from GF could have been handled a bit better in that what they should have done if nothing else was to make their product be differentiated enough from the other makers. But new companies make some stumbles. Indeed their stumble was being honest about what they were selling.

With the OP's budget I would not be recommending the DAC 09 anyway. The Jungson made Rita 880 is tough to beat regardless of the made in China stigma.

It should be pointed out that many brands are made in China - they just don't advertise it. A lot of the British imports are made in China and bigger name speaker companies like Energy are made in China. Then there are all the companies who use parts made in China but just happen to build the thing on domestic shores. Not unlike buy an HP or Apple laptop - not a single part is actually made by HP or Apple

poppachubby
10-23-2009, 12:13 AM
poppachubby

Yes there was a thread about this already. Grant Fidelity isn't hiding from this. There are several companies in fact that sell the exact same Tube DAC/09 under several labels - I've already seen 4 different company names for this piece of equipment.

Grant Fidelity, like I mentioned, is re-branding Chinese products under their own label. They have bought exclusive rights to the products which means units like the one you linked will disappear once they've been sold off.

The second issue is that Grant Fidelity is charging a fair bit more right now at $300 for the same units. However unlike the mail order from China units you actually get a warranty and support. And the actual sound of the unit is quite impressive does a pile of stuff and for $150 or $300 is quite excellent. It's not going to scare high end products but I can say it is a pretty impressive step up in most ways over my Cambridge Audio CD 6 (which was their top CD player in the late 1990's). Factor in that it's also a USB DAC and works as both a Solid State and Tube DAC and is also a full out tube or SS headphone amp and it is built quite well - it's really hard to complain.

Certainly you lose a bit of pride of ownership in that there could be a dozen clones out there and when you see the price of those you think gee if it's $150 it can't be any good. Me I'm surprised how much sound is on tap for this kind of money.

If you remember about 10 years ago, Antique Sound Labs - also a Chinese tube maker - put out $99 Wave 8 monoblocks (8 watts of class b tube power) and they were all the rage. This is basically the DAC/Preamp/Headphone amp version of the Wave 8's.

Basically what Grant Fidelity is trying to do is corner the Chinese high end market by making deals with their top manufacturers - Shegya, Consonance, Jungson. These companies have been making OEM products in North America for many years. Shengya has been operating under the Vincent label and Jungson apparently has been an OEM for a number of companies.

I think the DAC 09 from GF could have been handled a bit better in that what they should have done if nothing else was to make their product be differentiated enough from the other makers. But new companies make some stumbles. Indeed their stumble was being honest about what they were selling.

With the OP's budget I would not be recommending the DAC 09 anyway. The Jungson made Rita 880 is tough to beat regardless of the made in China stigma.

It should be pointed out that many brands are made in China - they just don't advertise it. A lot of the British imports are made in China and bigger name speaker companies like Energy are made in China. Then there are all the companies who use parts made in China but just happen to build the thing on domestic shores. Not unlike buy an HP or Apple laptop - not a single part is actually made by HP or Apple

I agree with you. Since you seem to have good knowledge on this subject, I have a question. On the Grant site, they won't discuss any details about one of the chips in the dac 09. However, on Ebay the seller gives full details about all. Do you suppose Grant puts different, possibly more high end, materials into theirs?

You are right, the difference is obviously support. I actually plan on buying one. It just seemed from your statement that you might not have been aware. No argumments here...

RGA
10-23-2009, 02:24 PM
I lived in China for a year and they copy everything they think they can sell. There are no laws - well there may be laws bit no one pays attention.

I went to an outdoor market and they have copies of DVD movies for sale for 10 yuan which is about $2 - you can talk them down to $1 a disc. Copying DVD's is illegal as you know. But I picked up a season of Dexter for $2 - the complete BattleStar Galactica series for $5, Complete Frasier series for $10 and movies that were sent to film critics before they ever reached movie theaters for $1.

And this with a policeman standing not 15 feet from the booths. Now apparently Americans who buy these and go back to the States could get in serious troubles with the authorities - so it's lucky to be Canadian where no such law exists. :)

This applies to stereo equipment and cars - it's rampant. There is the Hi-Phone which is a dirt cheap copy of the Iphone - so popular was the face Hi-Phone that other companies started to copy the copy - which I found very amusing.

There are fake Nike's, North Face, and Gucci's galore - I bought a Gucci wallet for $5 and it's real leather and looks exactly the same as the real one. A fellow travellor bought 15 North Face Jackets for $10 a piece to give away to friends when he got back. They're not quite as nice - but they look exactly the same.

The issue of the DAC chip to me is something GF should not have bothered discussing. It makes something that could be interpreted several ways. I just don't know why Ian bothered putting it on the site without a clearer explanation. I think it suggests that they don't want copy cats to be able to copy the specific DAC chip being used. Perhaps that was to separate it from the clones out there. But really how do you know the clones are not usuing the same chips - the clones are also made in the same factory is my understanding - made by a company with a non friendly for north Americans to pronounce.

Rachel of Grant Fidelity addressed the issue as follows - Note English isn't her first language

"I would like to contribute some facts on the various version of the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09 and some discussion raised around it. Hopefully it will help confused readers to get closer to the truth rather than guessing:

1) Maverick Audio is based out of Shanghai, China and is run by an individual. Maverick DAC is designed and manufactured by Xiangsheng out of China.
2) Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09 is also manufactured by Xiangsheng - we choose to distribute under Grant Fidelity brand as Xiangsheng is not a common English word for branding. Xiangsheng is following our quality control request in fulfill Grant Fidelity DAC orders.
3) Grant Fidelity and Xiangsheng has reached agreement to be the sole distributor of Xiangsheng DAC product in Canada and USA.
4) Maverick Audio has sold their existing stock DAC back to Xiangsheng and those stock will be re-printed for Grant Fidelity. Maverick Audio will no longer sell the DAC product to North America nor other international market after November.
5) Grant Fidelity's coming DAC shipment will have both silver and black faceplate for customers to choose from.
6) Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09 MSRP US$390 is priced with consideration to allow audio retail stores to carry the product and allow consumers to 'touch, see and listen' to the product in-store before making a purchase
7) Before retail network is set up for the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09, it will be on special price of $300 including free shipping in Canada and continuous USA - this will benefit internet shoppers who do not request a must-have audition before making purchase
8.) Xiangsheng has confirmed to Grant Fidelity that Pacific Valve doesn't have any Xiangsheng DAC product in stock. Xiangsheng has never sold any DAC product to Pacific Valve and will not recognize Pacific Valve's sale as authorized resale so no manufacturer warranty will be provided.
9) Many eBay sellers (out of China or Hong Kong) list a product for sale but has no stock of the product at all. Be aware of low priced eBay listings out of China or Hong Kong. When they get a sale on eBay, they will purchase one on Chinese market to fulfill the order. This practice is against eBay policy but still prevail in Asia. If the seller cannot spot a unit upon receiving a buyer's money, there is high chance that a buyer will be left without delivery for a long time. Grant Fidelity recently received a customer's email about an eBay seller with 100% positive feedback scammed him $700 on a Grant Fidelity brand tube amp (retail for $1900) but never deliver and disappeared off eBay. Be cautious when purchasing from sellers in Asia - 100% feedback doesn't mean it's a safe transaction all the time.

Grant Fidelity will continue service Canadian and USA customers with high quality products along with top level service.

If you have further questions on the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09, please feel free to contact us through http://www.grantfidelity.com or call us at our toll free number. We will be more than happy to help you with any questions you may have related to our product.

Thank you.
Rachel - Grant Fidelity

blackraven
10-23-2009, 02:34 PM
Chamai, I still would consider the Marantz SACD/CD players. They tend to have a warm rich sound, almost tube like (which seems to be the sound you are going for, but there are so many options available to you, I wish I was able to start from scratch with that kind of budget!). At least the SA8001 and SA8003 did. I got to audition these in home for about 1 month each. Standard CD play is excellent. I'm sure the more expensive Marantz players sound similar but with more detail, air and resolution that these models tend to lack when compared to my DAC and the Cambridge Audio 840c.

Chamai
10-23-2009, 05:09 PM
hey everyone. i just had a quick chat with my uncle and he said that lots of tube amps are manufactured in China. So he told me to go back to Hong Kong to buy it since he said i will probably save some money. if i really want a tube amp.i am going to visit my dad in hong kong soon so i might buy something there. he is not a fan of tube's so he didn't really suggest anything. the only brand he told me to check out is Auidionote. He said thats the only decent tube amp he ever kinda liked.

i am not really bothered with where a product is made as long as it is made well. i am really leaning towards the Mcintosh C2300. i am gonan check out a few more stores.

this is what i have in mind so far
Mcintosh c2300 pre tube amp
TRIAD gold series subwoofers

again, keep the suggestions coming~

EDIT: the cd player i will look for is not gonna be ones i can buy @ best buy. it's still gonna be a quality one, but just one that doesn't support sdcd.

Chamai
10-23-2009, 05:20 PM
Chamai, I still would consider the Marantz SACD/CD players. They tend to have a warm rich sound, almost tube like (which seems to be the sound you are going for, but there are so many options available to you, I wish I was able to start from scratch with that kind of budget!). At least the SA8001 and SA8003 did. I got to audition these in home for about 1 month each. Standard CD play is excellent. I'm sure the more expensive Marantz players sound similar but with more detail, air and resolution that these models tend to lack when compared to my DAC and the Cambridge Audio 840c.

hey, i am probably going have to pass on the Marrantz SACD player just because of the price. i don't think i will even own a sacd anytime soon. and this piece of gear is pretty expensive. i could use this money for some better speakers or something. i am actually still researching on how much a CD player really effects the overall sound of my system. i also like to ask other people on this forum the same questions.

what is the difference between a $150 cd player vs a $4000 cd player. do people think the $4000 dollar cd player sounds better just because it is $4000? if i blinded fold that person, could they tell?

caz223
10-23-2009, 09:31 PM
what is the difference between a $150 cd player vs a $4000 cd player. do people think the $4000 dollar cd player sounds better just because it is $4000? if i blinded fold that person, could they tell?

I'm not an audiophile, and I can't speak for everybody, but I recently bought an Adcom GCD-750 used from EBAY and found it to be the best sounding CD player I've heard to date. (Don't take this the wrong way, I haven't heard many.)
However, I firmly believe that if you were to bring a mass market CD player to my home and set up a blindfolded a/b test I could pick out the adcom, as long as I could choose the music and volume.
Not everyone likes the adcom sound, but I can tell you this, for the money I spent on the GCD-750 and GFP-750 used, I just know I'm not very likely to find a better deal or better equipment for the same price without some help.
Those in higher income brackets, or those with more disposable income, possibly with less hearing loss would be more discriminating yet, and could most likely pick their favorite transport/DAC combination from my beloved Adcom.
Then again, I could be on crack-since I'm just another face in another crowd you have no way of knowing. :)

I honestly don't think you have to spend $4000 to hear a difference in CD players, as long as the rest of your system is good.

Chamai
10-23-2009, 09:35 PM
I'm not an audiophile, and I can't speak for everybody, but I recently bought an Adcom GCD-750 used from EBAY and found it to be the best sounding CD player I've heard to date. (Don't take this the wrong way, I haven't heard many.)
However, I firmly believe that if you were to bring a mass market CD player to my home and set up a blindfolded a/b test I could pick out the adcom, as long as I could choose the music and volume.
Not everyone likes the adcom sound, but I can tell you this, for the money I spent on the GCD-750 and GFP-750 used, I just know I'm not very likely to find a better deal or better equipment for the same price without some help.
Those in higher income brackets, or those with more disposable income, possibly with less hearing loss would be more discriminating yet, and could most likely pick their favorite transport/DAC combination from my beloved Adcom.
Then again, I could be on crack-since I'm just another face in the crowd you have no way of knowing. :)
EDIT" NO "worries~ what i meant was not the mass market stuff. i am still looking at the higher end stuff, but not sdcd player.

caz223
10-23-2009, 09:42 PM
oh worries~ what i meant was not the mass market stuff. i am still looking at the higher end stuff, but not sdcd player.

Honestly, I think I spent less than $500 for my adcom, and it seems like a good place to start-at least it was for me. I can't speak for the rest of the adcom CD players, just the GCD-750.
I'm sure there are better sounding CD players-just not at my lite beer budget.

Chamai
10-23-2009, 10:02 PM
Honestly, I think I spent less than $500 for my adcom, and it seems like a good place to start-at least it was for me. I can't speak for the rest of the adcom CD players, just the GCD-750.
I'm sure there are better sounding CD players-just not at my lite beer budget.

for me, i still don't know how much a cd player affects the overall sound of the system. i might be on crack too. i just think as long as the thing doesn't break down, good power supply, doesn't make much noise. then thats a good cd player. i am going to do some blind tests after i decide on my choice of amps and speakers.

thanks for the input though.

blackraven
10-23-2009, 10:25 PM
Your mistaken if you think all CDP's sound a like. There is a huge difference in cheap and expensive CDP's. You just need a high end amp, preamp and speakers to tell the difference. Your an audio noob but will eventually figure it out.

I've auditioned numerous CDP's head to head with very great differences in sound, detail, resolution, tone, sound stage, rhythm and musicality. Your source of sound greatly impacts what you hear.

And by the way, you can't buy Marantz reference series at Best Buy although BB Magnolia stores can order high end equipment.

poppachubby
10-24-2009, 01:44 AM
I lived in China for a year and they copy everything they think they can sell. There are no laws - well there may be laws bit no one pays attention.

I went to an outdoor market and they have copies of DVD movies for sale for 10 yuan which is about $2 - you can talk them down to $1 a disc. Copying DVD's is illegal as you know. But I picked up a season of Dexter for $2 - the complete BattleStar Galactica series for $5, Complete Frasier series for $10 and movies that were sent to film critics before they ever reached movie theaters for $1.

And this with a policeman standing not 15 feet from the booths. Now apparently Americans who buy these and go back to the States could get in serious troubles with the authorities - so it's lucky to be Canadian where no such law exists. :)

This applies to stereo equipment and cars - it's rampant. There is the Hi-Phone which is a dirt cheap copy of the Iphone - so popular was the face Hi-Phone that other companies started to copy the copy - which I found very amusing.

There are fake Nike's, North Face, and Gucci's galore - I bought a Gucci wallet for $5 and it's real leather and looks exactly the same as the real one. A fellow travellor bought 15 North Face Jackets for $10 a piece to give away to friends when he got back. They're not quite as nice - but they look exactly the same.

The issue of the DAC chip to me is something GF should not have bothered discussing. It makes something that could be interpreted several ways. I just don't know why Ian bothered putting it on the site without a clearer explanation. I think it suggests that they don't want copy cats to be able to copy the specific DAC chip being used. Perhaps that was to separate it from the clones out there. But really how do you know the clones are not usuing the same chips - the clones are also made in the same factory is my understanding - made by a company with a non friendly for north Americans to pronounce.

Rachel of Grant Fidelity addressed the issue as follows - Note English isn't her first language

"I would like to contribute some facts on the various version of the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09 and some discussion raised around it. Hopefully it will help confused readers to get closer to the truth rather than guessing:

1) Maverick Audio is based out of Shanghai, China and is run by an individual. Maverick DAC is designed and manufactured by Xiangsheng out of China.
2) Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09 is also manufactured by Xiangsheng - we choose to distribute under Grant Fidelity brand as Xiangsheng is not a common English word for branding. Xiangsheng is following our quality control request in fulfill Grant Fidelity DAC orders.
3) Grant Fidelity and Xiangsheng has reached agreement to be the sole distributor of Xiangsheng DAC product in Canada and USA.
4) Maverick Audio has sold their existing stock DAC back to Xiangsheng and those stock will be re-printed for Grant Fidelity. Maverick Audio will no longer sell the DAC product to North America nor other international market after November.
5) Grant Fidelity's coming DAC shipment will have both silver and black faceplate for customers to choose from.
6) Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09 MSRP US$390 is priced with consideration to allow audio retail stores to carry the product and allow consumers to 'touch, see and listen' to the product in-store before making a purchase
7) Before retail network is set up for the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09, it will be on special price of $300 including free shipping in Canada and continuous USA - this will benefit internet shoppers who do not request a must-have audition before making purchase
8.) Xiangsheng has confirmed to Grant Fidelity that Pacific Valve doesn't have any Xiangsheng DAC product in stock. Xiangsheng has never sold any DAC product to Pacific Valve and will not recognize Pacific Valve's sale as authorized resale so no manufacturer warranty will be provided.
9) Many eBay sellers (out of China or Hong Kong) list a product for sale but has no stock of the product at all. Be aware of low priced eBay listings out of China or Hong Kong. When they get a sale on eBay, they will purchase one on Chinese market to fulfill the order. This practice is against eBay policy but still prevail in Asia. If the seller cannot spot a unit upon receiving a buyer's money, there is high chance that a buyer will be left without delivery for a long time. Grant Fidelity recently received a customer's email about an eBay seller with 100% positive feedback scammed him $700 on a Grant Fidelity brand tube amp (retail for $1900) but never deliver and disappeared off eBay. Be cautious when purchasing from sellers in Asia - 100% feedback doesn't mean it's a safe transaction all the time.

Grant Fidelity will continue service Canadian and USA customers with high quality products along with top level service.

If you have further questions on the Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-09, please feel free to contact us through http://www.grantfidelity.com or call us at our toll free number. We will be more than happy to help you with any questions you may have related to our product.

Thank you.
Rachel - Grant Fidelity

Excellent stuff RGA!!! Thanks so much for this post, really clears up everyhting I was wondering. Man, doing business with the Chinese sure is a colorful affair. The whole Ebay thing has me a little freaked out. The particular seller I am looking at claims to have a stock of them. Maybe I'll spring for the extra cash. What do you think??

Chamai
10-24-2009, 03:54 AM
Your mistaken if you think all CDP's sound a like. There is a huge difference in cheap and expensive CDP's. You just need a high end amp, preamp and speakers to tell the difference. Your an audio noob but will eventually figure it out.

I've auditioned numerous CDP's head to head with very great differences in sound, detail, resolution, tone, sound stage, rhythm and musicality. Your source of sound greatly impacts what you hear.

And by the way, you can't buy Marantz reference series at Best Buy although BB Magnolia stores can order high end equipment.

just to be clear~ i never though cd players sound alike. i have tested that putting cd's on dvd machines actually makes quite a difference in sound. but i have yet to do enough hearing tests on cd players alone to justify the extra $2000 bucks for the marrantz player. i am gonna really have to hear it first.

RGA
10-24-2009, 06:03 PM
Poppachubby

I can't say too much on the Dac 09 at the moment - check with GF if you can return it if you don't like it. I believe they do have some kind of policy. I think it's an upgrade of basic cd players and has a lot of pluses and if you go to the Canuck Audio Mart forum which is the Canadian forum under DACs there is a pretty massive thread there about this DAC. The naysayers of course troll there - but none of them have actually listened to it. But I'm used to that. :-)

RGA
10-24-2009, 06:19 PM
Chamai

Unfortunately I don't think you're getting the best advice. Tube amps are made all over the world and so are Solid State amplifiers (many of both designs are made in China - and that's not necessarily a bad thing since there are good Chinese companies and bad ones just like in Canada, Europe and the U.S. etc). And there are plenty of bad examples of both Tubes and SS.

The difficulty with Tube amps is that within the tube amplifier umbrella you have two large groups of amplifiers - Single Ended designs and Push Pull Designs and within each of those a myriad of designs. It is very possible not to like the sound of one kind or another kind of tube design.

Audio Note which I am most knowledgeable on makes numerous types of tube amplifiers and it's very possible to like one and not like another one. That is why it is silly to say "I heard the Audio Note SORO integrated - didn't like it so Audio Note stinks). Not when the OTO SE is a wildly different sounding amplifier from the SORO or even the OTO Push Pull (PP) version.

Grant Fidelity is another example making big powerful amplifiers like the Rita which will drive anything and uses KT88 tubes but as much as some people may love the big beastly power of the Rita for the same money someone else may prefer the Audio note OTO SE which uses the very weak, in comparison, tube called the EL84 (The OTO is rated as 12 watts per channel but really only 4-5 watts without distortion per channel) and then there are even lower powered SET amps that offer a whopping 1.5 watts per channel.

The lower powered tube amps require extremely careful matching to loudspeakers and many speakers are bad matches for low powered tube amps. You need high efficiency speakers(which is not the same as high sensitivity).

I would not be buying a bunch of components hoping they'll work together - what I would be looking to do is to buy a system you really like. Try and go to Las Vegas around January 8th because they have their annual Consumer Electronics Show. For a $1000 spend a weekend and go through all the showrooms and listen to as many systems as you can - then you will know what you like and will make less mistakes.

audio amateur
10-25-2009, 04:23 AM
... high efficiency speakers(which is not the same as high sensitivity).


How so?

Radio head
10-25-2009, 04:46 PM
Hi all,
My name is Ben and I just ran across this forum because I've been looking for a good radio and I saw a question from somone who was also looking for a good radio.
All I found in the way of replys were people talking about their ipods and music systems.
Does anyone have a line on a really good AM radio?
Back in the days of tube type radios there were radios with 2 stages of RF amplification, 2 stages of IF, a seperate tube for the local oscillator and another for the q multiplier and the detector. Some even had push-pull audio amplifiers. Is there a solid state version of something like that?

RGA
11-04-2009, 09:45 PM
How so?

High Sensitivity is how sensitive a speaker is with a 1 watt input in relation to how loud it can play at 1 meter distance. 95db sensitive speaker 8ohm if given 1 watt will produce 95decibels. However, if the speaker drops to 4ohms it requires TWICE the power to produce 95db - or 2 watts.

This doubling of power required occurs at higher levels so in other words if you were running a 50 watt amp and suddenly the speaker dips to 4ohms you need 100 watts to generate the same level. This is a grossly simplified model I am constructing here.

Most Speakers do not operate at a consistent impedance of 8 ohms so your amplifier needs to continually adjust to the demands made by the loudspeaker. A speaker that has a relatively Flat impedance can be easier to drive than a high sensitive speaker with large impedance shifts. These impedance dips tend to be located in the bass and treble. This is why you often see people state that low power tube amps lose control of bass - even with some 95-100db sensitive speakers. If the speaker dips to 2.5 ohms at 40hz the amplifier has a big problem trying to generate 4 times the power. Single Ended amplifiers (SETS) or amplifiers like Sugden's famous A21a not only don't double their power into 4ohms they're power is cut in half. So it's a "double whammy" for such amplifiers.

My speaker for instance is 6 ohm rated with a minimum of 5ohms and 93db sensitive. This is very very easy and quite highly efficient loudspeaker. But a 102 db 8 ohm speaker that dips to 2 ohms may look easy to drive but is actually considerably more difficult. And a number of seemingly low efficient speakers - like a number of Panel loudspeakers with mid 80's sensitivity have very flat impedance curves. Which is why you often see 10 watt amps mated to Quad electrostats. My amp has no trouble with such speakers. It will have trouble with a number of 90-95db+ speakers that dip under 3ohms speakers.

There are several other factors involved but this is a very simple overview.

Erik1973
11-10-2009, 06:42 PM
Hi!

Not sure anybody is still reading, but I'd like to throw in a good quote I once read,
which I think is very important to those who don't know so much yet, but want a good
system anyway. (And who can blame them?)

I think it was the audio critic (http://www.theaudiocritic.com/) who said it:

"In audio, time buys you more than money".

I've probably mangled the quote a bit, but the core message is hopefully still intact:
Spending time (wisely) is going to give you a much bigger return on investment than
spending a lot of money. Or rephrased once again: Putting in the effort of going many
different places, bringing good recordings you know well, and listening critically to a
broad variety (important!) of systems, will give you a *much* bigger return on investment
than just throwing money at it.

And apart from that, trying all those systems is actually great fun!

Kind regards,
Erik

Chamai
11-25-2009, 02:18 AM
hey all, i am back. didn't really go on my computer much these few weeks because i was either busy with my kid or was playing wii and ps3 with my wife.
well, anyways. i went try out some systems.

i tried out mctinosh MC2105 with C2300 with a mcintosh sacd player. the speakers were some Vienna Acoustics? it's gotta be something fancy since it's paired with mcintosh gear. the guy didn't tell me the model, but i didn't care about it because i wasn't impressed with the sound at all. i just told him i can hear quite a lot of treble distortion. the bass was very powerful and sounded great though. the salesman noticed it too AFTER i told him. i did expected a little more from a 20k+ setup. next, went to try out a system with everything by NAIM paired with some Linn or sonur faber speakers.this setup sounded worse. everything sounded flat. didn't feel any dynamics or whatsoever. the sales person was very friendly and he really took the time to explain things to me. i am just the kinda guy who trusts my own ear. so i left the store and i told him i will come back and try out more things next week. i really want to try out the b&w 802s, but they are over my budget. again, it was a great experience, but also a little dissapointing because i didn't really find anything i like. iwas in hong kong earlier this year and i listened to a pair of Triad gold mininoitors with gold sub with external amp hooked up to some ADA . a power conditioner by Equi-tech was used.i really thought the setup sounded very clean and crisp. i am definetly going to pick up the gold minimonitors and the gold sub. most likely i will pick up the power conditioner as well.

so at least i got the speakers part done.

now i just gotta find the right amp

Feanor
11-25-2009, 06:21 AM
Arthur, a belated welcome to you.

Perhaps I'm getting mixed messages from you -- or maybe I need to reread your posts a few times.

You have an adequate budget at C$14k but need to consider your goals more carefully. Your current talking points about equipment, especially McIntosh MC2105 & C2300, seem "strange" for want of a better word. (The MC2105 -- assuming you've got the model number correct -- is a relic of the '60s and '70s: forget about it.)

You have mentioned 5.1 sound: this is a very important consideration for a young person with a wide range of music tastes. Please take a moment to read Sir Terrrance's insightful comments about multi-channel sound, HERE (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=305664#poststop). If he's right, Blu-ray sound will deliver on a huge potential. If I were you, (of course, I'm not), I would start with the premise of a multi-channel system.

Given M/C, I would first think about a highly versitile source component, that is, a universal player. The OPPO BDP-83 SE Blu-ray comes to mind, (see here (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/)). If you see yourself with a lot of computer sourced-material, I would look for a high-grade sound card with HDMI output as well as S/PDIF coaxial -- unfortunately I don't have a recommendation off hand.

Next to consider is the multi-channel processor, (a.k.a. "prepro"). There are some very high-end units out there, but you might first look at the modestly price Emotiva UMC-1, (here (http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm)). In any case, look for multiple HDMI inputs; check the specs for the capability to accept a DSD (SACD) datastream -- not necessarily essential but a nice touch if you have SACDs. Good "bass management" facilities are important: they ought to work with all types of input, i.e. stereo and SACD as will as Blu-ray, Dolby, and DTS. Balanced XLR outputs are another nice-to-have, especially if you might consider 'active' speakers, (see below).

Then consider you speakers. Consider them before your amplfier because they will influence the amp or amps you'll want to get. I mentioned 'active' speakers (i.e. speakers their own, built-in amps). Good, entry level models include the M-Audio CX8, (here (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileCX8.html)); they have balanced inputs and controls to accomodate various room placements. Wow! a 7.1 system with CX8s or say, three CX8s and four CX5s has me salavating.

For standard, passive speakers, the Monitor Audio Golds are nice no doubt, but the PSB Synchrony's are very good suggestion. I would stick to two-way "bookshelf" speakers and look to my subwoofer(s) to carry all bass below 80Hz. If passive speakers, you'll need an amp or amps. The Emotiva UPA-7 is an good, entry-level option, (here (http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm)).

Lots to think about. Don't fixate on the first things you see in the dealer's listening room.

blackraven
11-25-2009, 02:10 PM
Great Advice on the PSB Synchrony's Feanor. Excellent speakers, very deatailed, excellent bass and a warmer sound. I would also listen to Theil's. They cost more than the PSB's. Theils and Salk HTR-3's would be my choice for a non Magnepan speaker. Dynaudio are also worth a listen.

For amps and preamps, consider these brands, Conrad Johnson, Classe, Krell, Ayre, McCormak, Bryston, Audio Research, Parasound Halo.

CD players Cambridge Audio 840c, Rega Saturn, Niam, Ayre, Krell, the Oppo bdp-83 SE is a real bargain for a universal player. The Oppo has been rated a Stereophile Magazine Class A component comparing with players costing thousands of dollars.

Chamai
11-26-2009, 03:04 AM
Arthur, a belated welcome to you.

Perhaps I'm getting mixed messages from you -- or maybe I need to reread your posts a few times.

You have an adequate budget at C$14k but need to consider your goals more carefully. Your current talking points about equipment, especially McIntosh MC2105 & C2300, seem "strange" for want of a better word. (The MC2105 -- assuming you've got the model number correct -- is a relic of the '60s and '70s: forget about it.)

You have mentioned 5.1 sound: this is a very important consideration for a young person with a wide range of music tastes. Please take a moment to read Sir Terrrance's insightful comments about multi-channel sound, HERE (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=305664#poststop). If he's right, Blu-ray sound will deliver on a huge potential. If I were you, (of course, I'm not), I would start with the premise of a multi-channel system.

Given M/C, I would first think about a highly versitile source component, that is, a universal player. The OPPO BDP-83 SE Blu-ray comes to mind, (see here (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83SE/)). If you see yourself with a lot of computer sourced-material, I would look for a high-grade sound card with HDMI output as well as S/PDIF coaxial -- unfortunately I don't have a recommendation off hand.

Next to consider is the multi-channel processor, (a.k.a. "prepro"). There are some very high-end units out there, but you might first look at the modestly price Emotiva UMC-1, (here (http://emotiva.com/umc1.shtm)). In any case, look for multiple HDMI inputs; check the specs for the capability to accept a DSD (SACD) datastream -- not necessarily essential but a nice touch if you have SACDs. Good "bass management" facilities are important: they ought to work with all types of input, i.e. stereo and SACD as will as Blu-ray, Dolby, and DTS. Balanced XLR outputs are another nice-to-have, especially if you might consider 'active' speakers, (see below).

Then consider you speakers. Consider them before your amplfier because they will influence the amp or amps you'll want to get. I mentioned 'active' speakers (i.e. speakers their own, built-in amps). Good, entry level models include the M-Audio CX8, (here (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileCX8.html)); they have balanced inputs and controls to accomodate various room placements. Wow! a 7.1 system with CX8s or say, three CX8s and four CX5s has me salavating.

For standard, passive speakers, the Monitor Audio Golds are nice no doubt, but the PSB Synchrony's are very good suggestion. I would stick to two-way "bookshelf" speakers and look to my subwoofer(s) to carry all bass below 80Hz. If passive speakers, you'll need an amp or amps. The Emotiva UPA-7 is an good, entry-level option, (here (http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm)).

Lots to think about. Don't fixate on the first things you see in the dealer's listening room.

hi~ thanks for the welcoming.
ah, i was falling asleep while i was typing my post. the power amp was a 501 i believe. the reason why i went to check out the c2300 is because it had the HT bypass feature. it's funny you mentioned about the oppo player because while i was typing my previous message, i was set on picking up the oppo blu ray player as well. but i am still going to have a dedicated CD player. i don't have any SACD's and i don't think i will plan on buying any. 98% of my cd's are japanese and i don't think they released any SACD's for the artists i like.

great advice on the prepro. i totally agree that this is a much better route. but honestly, it is very hard to try out different brands on combo's because speakers will really change the sound. so the only source i can rely on is the internet and people i know who is into audio.

as for the speakers and sub, i am getting these at cost from my uncle, and better yet, my dad is paying for them.:12: as a gift. so i am pretty much set on these.

again, thanks for the reply~

Feanor
11-26-2009, 05:44 AM
...as for the speakers and sub, i am getting these at cost from my uncle, and better yet, my dad is paying for them.:12: as a gift.
... thanks for the reply~
Nice!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

poppachubby
11-26-2009, 08:32 AM
As a newbie, you're pretty far ahead of the beat. Your knowledge of music gives you an ability to hear what others wouldn't. Your Uncle has exposed you to quality audio, and you've been able to hear what's possible. Also, you have an understanding of the Compact Disc format, and its inherent issues. All of this adds up to help you out alot in this hobby.

Since you know that CD is horrendously compressed and degraded, have you given any thought to vinyl? Have you heard any quality turntables along the way?

With your budget, you could set up a really nice analog end. I too am a musician, I play electric bass. I would recommend vinyl as an answer to your source issues. There is alot of factors involved with getting a good vinyl sound. This doesn't mean that it has to cost alot or require a dealers assisstance.

I have a digital set up using a turntable as the source. The signal is then processed to 16 bit/44.1 Khz and believe me , there's not a lick of information unavailable to my ear. It sounds great.

I don't want to knock you off your path, but perhaps consider the musical joy analog could bring a discerning musician such as yourself.

Chamai
11-27-2009, 12:03 AM
Nice!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

again~ thanks for the advice~ i am going to some 2nd hand shops when i head back to hong kong. going to see what deals i can get. the more money i save, more money i can spend on another TV heh.

Chamai
11-27-2009, 12:16 AM
As a newbie, you're pretty far ahead of the beat. Your knowledge of music gives you an ability to hear what others wouldn't. Your Uncle has exposed you to quality audio, and you've been able to hear what's possible. Also, you have an understanding of the Compact Disc format, and its inherent issues. All of this adds up to help you out alot in this hobby.

Since you know that CD is horrendously compressed and degraded, have you given any thought to vinyl? Have you heard any quality turntables along the way?

With your budget, you could set up a really nice analog end. I too am a musician, I play electric bass. I would recommend vinyl as an answer to your source issues. There is alot of factors involved with getting a good vinyl sound. This doesn't mean that it has to cost alot or require a dealers assisstance.

I have a digital set up using a turntable as the source. The signal is then processed to 16 bit/44.1 Khz and believe me , there's not a lick of information unavailable to my ear. It sounds great.

I don't want to knock you off your path, but perhaps consider the musical joy analog could bring a discerning musician such as yourself.

hi~ i never really considered vinyl because none of the music i like comes in vinyl. if i ever wanted a turntable, i can always take the one from my aunt's house, she has my uncle's old Technics turntable from the 70's. gonna give that a go if i ever decide to go the vinyl path. my old piano teacher has a very nice turntable setup. i forgot the brand, i should give him a call and ask him what he is using. we were listening to classical piano and i was quite pleased with the "live" sound i was hearing. ofcourse, it could be the source and i would love to compare it to a cd version if it had one. again, i am going to try to keep my budget down. getting a good sound without having to spend too much is probably my goal for this setup. i know the acoustics of the room also plays an important factor so i am going to do some research on what to do. going to pick up that Equi-tech power conditioner and going to get my friend to setup a dedicated line for my system.

thanks for the input~

Chamai
11-27-2009, 01:38 AM
Great Advice on the PSB Synchrony's Feanor. Excellent speakers, very deatailed, excellent bass and a warmer sound. I would also listen to Theil's. They cost more than the PSB's. Theils and Salk HTR-3's would be my choice for a non Magnepan speaker. Dynaudio are also worth a listen.

For amps and preamps, consider these brands, Conrad Johnson, Classe, Krell, Ayre, McCormak, Bryston, Audio Research, Parasound Halo.

CD players Cambridge Audio 840c, Rega Saturn, Niam, Ayre, Krell, the Oppo bdp-83 SE is a real bargain for a universal player. The Oppo has been rated a Stereophile Magazine Class A component comparing with players costing thousands of dollars.

thanks for the suggestions. i will check these out for sure.

audio amateur
11-27-2009, 10:44 AM
Poppa, I don't really get why you think CD is so bad. Most people here use CD as their main source and some have VERY good systems. Think EStat...

JoeE SP9
11-27-2009, 01:19 PM
PC, are you aware that your SB card automatically converts everything to 16 Bits at 48Khz. You can turn this of so it doesn't re-sample everything. I recommend it if you have not done so. This will give an improvement in the sound of any standard RBCD's or tracks that you store in you music server. Also if you are not using ASIO with your sound card do so. It bypasses the Windows Kernel and mixer resulting in better sound.
If you haven't done these things that could explain why you're so down on CD's. Although the DAC in my SB sound card is quite good it can't touch my Full Nelson MSB DAC.
Your SB card can sound damn good. Try tweaking it. A good external DAC may make CD's more palatable to you.

poppachubby
11-27-2009, 02:58 PM
Joe, I have the card set to 16/44.1 right now. This is to facilitate my temporary set up while I'm in between dacs. I am running the SC into an old H/T amp's coax CD input.

I haven't tweaked the ASIO. Sorry, but what path do I take in the comp to find it?

Thanks guys, I guess I just don't find CD that inspiring of a format. I love vinyl and stick to that mostly. I do use MP3's and lossless for my comp listening as well. I have roughly 300 CD's.

I'm not totally against it, I just think that there's too much made of it, and not enough love for analog.

So AA, I say to you, why don't you have an analog set-up?!? Don't give me the student/not home line either... I'm kidding really because I know your reasons. You enjoy CD and I enjoy my records. We just dig what we dig.

audio amateur
11-27-2009, 03:32 PM
I'm glad you enjoy vinyl but what I'm unsure about iw why you claim that CD's are horribly compressed. I don't believe they are compressed any more than Vinyl, in fact they have a better dynamic range than Vinyl.
What exactly are you referring to when you mention compression, or is that just a trick to get people into vinyl:hand:

Chamai
11-27-2009, 09:48 PM
this whole "compression" thing happens during recording. once all instruments have been recorded, the tracks get eq'ed, mixed, and compressed. so nothing really sounds like the actual instrument. as for vinyl, it is the same story i am guessing. what people hear through their speakers depend a lot of how the instruments are recorded and mixed.

JoeE SP9
11-27-2009, 11:26 PM
The compression you are referring to is almost exclusively confined to "pop" music recordings. They are compressed and Eq'd to sound good in a car, boom box or iPod. Jazz and classical music is almost never compressed.
Compression in and of itself does not change the tonal qualities of an instrument. What it does is lower the dynamic range. That is the difference in level between the softest and loudest signals is electronically lowered. The overly loud commercials on TV are a perfect example of too much compression. They are not louder than a soundtrack in a TV show. Every sound from the softest to the loudest has the same volume. So, with everything informally loud the result sounds louder but it isn't. The tonal quality has not been changed just the dynamic range..

poppachubby
11-28-2009, 01:10 AM
I'm glad you enjoy vinyl but what I'm unsure about iw why you claim that CD's are horribly compressed. I don't believe they are compressed any more than Vinyl, in fact they have a better dynamic range than Vinyl.
What exactly are you referring to when you mention compression, or is that just a trick to get people into vinyl:hand:


Hmmm, I think the main problem with vinyl is the equipment needed to listen to it. Joe has said "confined" to pop music. Well let's face it guys, most people are listening to pop music CD's and not Jazz/Classical. I don't care if the CD is louder than my record. If I can channel the signal properly from a mint LP, I will enjoy better quality than your CD AA.

Oh and Tony? :idea: I think I will discuss compression now just to bug you, lol!!

audio amateur
11-28-2009, 03:38 AM
The compression you are referring to is almost exclusively confined to "pop" music recordings. They are compressed and Eq'd to sound good in a car, boom box or iPod. Jazz and classical music is almost never compressed.
Yep, that's what I thought. CDs are GOOD.

BTW, I just received my SPL meter. I was listening to a piece of classical (Passacaglia & Fugue by Bach) transcribed from the organ to orchestra. The beginning of the piece is ever so quiet, and then as the piece progresses it gets louder, and then super loud in some passages, which means you have to be careful with the volume knob so that you just about hear the beginning. I recorded a difference of about 34dB between the quiet part in the beginning and the loudest parts during the piece. Is this dynamic range then?

Chamai
11-28-2009, 11:21 PM
i think in the end it all comes down to how skillful the sound engineer is and what kind of microphone and etc was used in the recording.

oh yea, im gonna pick up one of those 5.1 in a box systems for my computer this xmas. any suggestions? something cheap and decent.

audio amateur
11-29-2009, 03:40 AM
Depends what your budget is. The Logitech Z5500 is quite good. It's under 300$ too

Chamai
11-29-2009, 04:48 PM
Depends what your budget is. The Logitech Z5500 is quite good. It's under 300$ too

i probably go with a reciever with speaker package. i am not really into those computer speakers.

audio amateur
11-29-2009, 05:15 PM
The Z5500 is very good for the money. It's also quite compact and I would recommend it over 90% of home theaters in a box.

blackraven
11-29-2009, 06:08 PM
I have yet to hear a good quality LP on good equipment sound as good as a well recorded CD on good equipment, especially with tube or hybrid amps, preamps, dac's and revealing speakers

Chamai
11-30-2009, 05:04 AM
The Z5500 is very good for the money. It's also quite compact and I would recommend it over 90% of home theaters in a box.

got 350watt PA's connected to my computer right now hahaha. my guitarist brought his PA system to my house. gonna get a piece of crap receiver to connect my old speakers and sub to my computer and call it a day.