To Clamp or Not to...

[poppachubby]

Good Day AR party people. I will try and simplify this as best I can. There are 2 hifi shops in my city. They both sell top shelf products, particularily when it comes to vinyl.

Shop number 1 pushes clamps in general. They have several varieties for sale. They are also the local Pro-Ject dealer and push Pro-Ject clamps and upgrades. Clearly, they are for the science of clamping.

Shop number 2 has a no clamp policy. They sell none and advise against them. Let me add that these guys sell Linn products and are highly reputable. They feel that since the clamp attahces itself to the spindle, vibrations from the bearing will create sonic issues during playback.

The problem I am having is this, I am in the middle of a "DIY" tweak for one of my tables. I am presently writing a CNC program to machine a piece of acrylic. I am going to use it like a mat with a clamp and see what the results are. I wasn't expecting to hear anything objectional about clamps.

To me, the science of clamping makes perfect sense. Do you guys think I should worry about this? I am using a Technics SL Q2, not the greatest table in the world. They actually had said that the worse the table, the more likely the problem will occur.

Hope to hear your input, Chubbs

[JohnMichael]

There are clamps, weights and weights that clamp, there are matless platters and matted platters. Some tables have heavy duty main bearings, others medium and some the shaft is the motor shaft.

OH any way I do not use any clamps or weights. Of course I have a Rega and I am indoctrinated into the Rega way to play a record. Once my platter is spinning it does not stop until I am finished playing vinyl. So no chance to clamp since the platter never stops. I do use the Ringmat platter mat which I enjoy and it is far superior to the felt mat and probably most rubber mats.

Not all bearings can handle the excess weight of a heavy clamp. I would be more careful with direct drive turntables. Also records can be weighted or clamped too much and the record can dish leaving the center lower than the edges. Turntables designed with a platter and clamp to compliment one another can be quite good.

With your table I think you are on the right path to improve the mat and would be curious to read how the acrylic works for you. I am curious are you making the mat out of acrylic or a replacement platter. Again be concerned if there is an increase in weight if you go whole platter. Also as you may well know if the platter is too much thicker your vertical tracking angle will change and the difference in sound may have more to do with how the stylus rides the groove than an improvement in mats. Good luck and let us know what you decided.

[poppachubby]

There are clamps, weights and weights that clamp, there are matless platters and matted platters. Some tables have heavy duty main bearings, others medium and some the shaft is the motor shaft.

OH any way I do not use any clamps or weights. Of course I have a Rega and I am indoctrinated into the Rega way to play a record. Once my platter is spinning it does not stop until I am finished playing vinyl. So no chance to clamp since the platter never stops. I do use the Ringmat platter mat which I enjoy and it is far superior to the felt mat and probably most rubber mats.

Not all bearings can handle the excess weight of a heavy clamp. I would be more careful with direct drive turntables. Also records can be weighted or clamped too much and the record can dish leaving the center lower than the edges. Turntables designed with a platter and clamp to compliment one another can be quite good.

With your table I think you are on the right path to improve the mat and would be curious to read how the acrylic works for you. I am curious are you making the mat out of acrylic or a replacement platter. Again be concerned if there is an increase in weight if you go whole platter. Also as you may well know if the platter is too much thicker your vertical tracking angle will change and the difference in sound may have more to do with how the stylus rides the groove than an improvement in mats. Good luck and let us know what you decided.

Great points John and thanks! To start, yes I have considered all of the fallout from my project. I am essentially making an acrylic mat which will sit on the platter of a direct drive table. My current mat is 5mm and this acrylic will be 10mm. I have tested this thickness and the VTA will be fine. If this works out as well as I am hoping, I may attempt an acrylic platter for a belt drive I have.

I too have a ring mat and enjoy it. I'm not sure if I'll get everything out of the acrylic without the clamp. After seeing some higher end Pro-Ject tables at work, I think it's a great idea. We'll soon see...

I was actually looking at a Rega specific clamp as they are designed to grab a small amount of spindle. My spindle just peeks out with this mat. I will be finishing the work on it hopefully tonight, I'll post some pics for sure.

[JohnMichael]

All this talk of clamps and platters I had to pull out the Funk Firm Achroplat platter. Since my system is more revealing with the Krell I thought I should give it a listen. Sounds good, better than I remember. Of course with the Achroplat on the table there is not much Rega left of my Rega.

[poppachubby]

All this talk of clamps and platters I had to pull out the Funk Firm Achroplat platter. Since my system is more revealing with the Krell I thought I should give it a listen. Sounds good, better than I remember. Of course with the Achroplat on the table there is not much Rega left of my Rega.


Never tried one but with a name like Funk Firm, how could it be bad? Great funkin name!

I'm at work John and I've completed the "mat". It looks amazing, I'll take some pics when I get home, around 12/1. It's clear acrylic, however, I had to mill down one side to thin it out. The Gerber machine leaves a nice symettrical footprint of lines though. Not bad at all.

The acrylic piece cost me 35 bucks and I have access to the CNC machine here. To pay for machining might be another 40 - 50 bucks. Not too sure. I may mill it down another 2 mm. It's presently 10mm thick and approx. 650g heavy. Chat soon...

[02audionoob]

What's the diameter of this work of art?

[poppachubby]

What's the diameter of this work of art?


292mm or for you Yankee Doodle, 11.5 inches, the exact diameter of the stock mat that came with the table.

[poppachubby]

Not too much response on this thread. I thought this topic would be of great interest for any anolog fans.

So on that note, here now for it's first public display.....for the legion of awaiting fans (2 fans)....and for the audio world as a whole....

.........The Acri-Mat!!!

http://gallery.audioreview.com/uploads/audio/284153/DSC02482.JPG

Not a bad name huh? LOL. I have some rough finishing to do on the edges and the spindle hole. I am now going into work to mill it down to 6mm thickness. Unfortunatly, this is a requirement to accomodate a clamp. It's still a nice, solid piece. I'll post some more photos once it's fully completed and ready for mass production in Japan, part of the deal I have with Sony.

I also have some more thoughts to post regarding clamping and a few other, broader topics.

[poppachubby]

Due to issues with the upload tool, I will post a couple pics, each in its own reply. I was quite proud of my tolerances on this cut, as you can see, it's balancing on end with no assistance.

[poppachubby]

Oh ya....

[poppachubby]

Well, that's it for now. You can see that the edges need finishing, which they'll get. Strictly aesthetics at this point.

I will give some impressions once I've listened for a couple of days. What I really want to know though, is how it sounds with the clamp. For this we'll need to wait. Any ideas or suggestions are welcome...

[02audionoob]

.........The Acri-Mat!!!

Not a bad name huh?

What about Acrylimat? I've got dibs on that one.

[JohnMichael]

I could not tell from the picture but is there a dished out area for the record label. The label area can be a little thicker so the record will not rest flat on the platter if it does not have a recessed area for the label.

[poppachubby]

The label area can be a little thicker so the record will not rest flat on the platter if it does not have a recessed area for the label.

Sorry John, you'll have to explain that again. I think I'm understanding. The Acryli-Mat*TM noob Lic., is smooth across the entire surface. Are you suggesting a recessed or thickened diameter where the label sits?

Not sure what thickened would accomplish...just explain your meaning again John, I didn't catch it fully. I can tell you at this point, I could recess the label area on the surface, but any thickening will mean reducing the overall thickness which I'm not willing to do.

Perhaps the next one...I'm at work right now so I'll have to wait to divulge some chatter that's on my mind. I had a pretty mind blowing day. I went to store "2", from the OP of this thread. Spoke directly with the turntable expert, a Linn man. Incredible knowledge, not just of audio equipment but the concept of audio enjoyment as a whole. Somehow, we got totally off topic.

I'm sure that quite a few guys on here are long past me. They know exactly what they want to hear coming out of their speakers. More importantly, they know which producers will provide the correct synergy to get it. In short, we spoke about this and a few other topics, stemming from the clamp issue.

It was almost discouraging to realize that there's alot about myself that I am not sure about when it comes to audio enjoyment. I think the bottom line is simply this...

LISTEN!!!

I plan to do much more listening. You see guys on here, and all over with "upgrade plans". I personally have no plan. I wonder about the validity of such a plan anyhow. If you're not 100% certain of what you are trying to achieve sonically, no plan really matters. It's almost a certainty that you will achieve your plan and after some amount of time, be re-planning. I need to do much more listening to try and narrow down where it is I want to go in terms of gear.

I think for now I'll enjoy what I have. Let the listening begin!!

[JohnMichael]

Look at your ttables original mat. Is there an indented space around the center? That is for the label area of the record. Most records are thicker at the outer edge and center label. That is why you made the mat smaller in diameter than the record. In order for the record to be supported by the mat you need a slight recess in your new mat the size of the record label. Again look at the original mat and I think you will see what I mean.

[02audionoob]

Here's a decent photo of an acrylic platter indented at the label area...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2471/4018067828_99e5388519.jpg

[poppachubby]

Super, I can do that easy. I'll just use the rubber mats measurements. Thanks guys!

[jrhymeammo]

That's pretty cool, Chubby.

How much does that platter weigh? Also, how does that affect your Vertical Tracking angle?

JRA

[poppachubby]

That's pretty cool, Chubby.

How much does that platter weigh? Also, how does that affect your Vertical Tracking angle?

JRA

The platter weighes approx. 375 grams and is now 5mm in thickness, same as the mat before it and does not affect the VTA. I am enjoying it quite alot and look forward to adding a clamp to the mix.

[hifitommy]

i have a nearly weightless clamp from france which i sometimes use bot mostly i use the sota relfex clamp. it takes a rubber washer under the record and presses the vinyl slightly down over it. i use this on my sota sapphire and alternate with an orsonic (small) clamp.

i recommend the ttweights lightweight clamp and its price isnt prohibitive. ulstimately i want to get their periphery ring which holds down the outer edge fo the LP, great for some warps.

i like your acrylic but wonder about how much spindle there is for the clamps to purchase onto. i might use some blu-tac or cheeep equivalent under the acrylic and on top of the aluminum (ooopsy, did i leave out an i for you canuks?).

i once modified a rabco st4 tonearm for low mass by cutting the counterweight exactly in half (weighed in the lab at the hospital with a triple beam). i wont outline the entire mod here but suffice it to say i was able to reduce the required vtf on the XLM from 1.5gr to 1.0gr. modding can be fun if you stay within your capabilities.

[poppachubby]

i have a nearly weightless clamp from france which i sometimes use bot mostly i use the sota relfex clamp. it takes a rubber washer under the record and presses the vinyl slightly down over it. i use this on my sota sapphire and alternate with an orsonic (small) clamp.

i recommend the ttweights lightweight clamp and its price isnt prohibitive. ulstimately i want to get their periphery ring which holds down the outer edge fo the LP, great for some warps.

i like your acrylic but wonder about how much spindle there is for the clamps to purchase onto. i might use some blu-tac or cheeep equivalent under the acrylic and on top of the aluminum (ooopsy, did i leave out an i for you canuks?).

i once modified a rabco st4 tonearm for low mass by cutting the counterweight exactly in half (weighed in the lab at the hospital with a triple beam). i wont outline the entire mod here but suffice it to say i was able to reduce the required vtf on the XLM from 1.5gr to 1.0gr. modding can be fun if you stay within your capabilities.

Great advice Tommy, the spindle was a great concern and ultimately dictated alot of how the mat would turn out. The Clearaudio clamps are good for little spindle and of course clamps designed for Rega decks will grab almost nothing.

[JoeE SP9]

i have a nearly weightless clamp from france which i sometimes use bot mostly i use the sota relfex clamp. it takes a rubber washer under the record and presses the vinyl slightly down over it. i use this on my sota sapphire and alternate with an orsonic (small) clamp.

i recommend the ttweights lightweight clamp and its price isnt prohibitive. ulstimately i want to get their periphery ring which holds down the outer edge fo the LP, great for some warps.

i like your acrylic but wonder about how much spindle there is for the clamps to purchase onto. i might use some blu-tac or cheeep equivalent under the acrylic and on top of the aluminum (ooopsy, did i leave out an i for you canuks?).

i once modified a rabco st4 tonearm for low mass by cutting the counterweight exactly in half (weighed in the lab at the hospital with a triple beam). i wont outline the entire mod here but suffice it to say i was able to reduce the required vtf on the XLM from 1.5gr to 1.0gr. modding can be fun if you stay within your capabilities.

That lightweight clamp, could it be a Planax?

[hifitommy]

i got it in a small group ofitems at a hifi store that took some stuff in trade. it requires some hand and finger strength to use it. for a while, my arthritis prevented me from its use. otherwise it does a GREAT job of immobilizing the disc on the platter.

[JoeE SP9]

I've had one since the early 80's. They are great for spring suspended TT's. No weight and pressure adjustable. I know you know this. This is for the benefit of others.
I wonder why no one makes them anymore. Maybe I'll make (or have made) a couple and try to sell them.

[hifitommy]

and the design is quite different from others. i doubt that it is in production anymore.

[JohnMichael]

Well poppachubby I have decided to try a turntable weight. Now that I am using the Funk Firm Achroplat I thought now is the time.

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/80943

I will let you know what I think of it. The table is sounding better with the ceramic bearing and since the platter is lighter than the Rega glass platter I do not think it will stress the bearing.

When it arrives I will let you know what I think.

[hifitommy]

http://www.ttweights.com/catalog/item/6984492/6999370.htm

not too heavy, and not too costly. $55. my desire is for the periphery ring.

[JohnMichael]

Thanks hifitommy I also found this one at a weight of one pound. Also made from aluminum.

http://cgi.ebay.ph/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330335030991

Much to consider.

[hifitommy]

personally i think clamping is more effective hence the lightweight clamp from france i mentioned (no longer avail).

[poppachubby]

Well this is a debate indeed, many think that the clamp will bring up vibrations from the motor/bearing whereas the wieght will not. However the clamp is far more effective in its intended purpose than the weight IMO. I think much depends on table design. I have been using the Clearwater clamp with my Acrylimat *TM 02audionoob2009.

Yes John I would be interested in your feedback. I am getting a Golden Tube amp and hope to be upgrading my TT in good time. I will then be able to come to your upper class turntable tea parties. We will sip the finest tea and laugh at the lower class turntablers.

[JohnMichael]

Since I use the Rega method of play, by not turning off the motor, clamping would be more difficult than quickly lifting the weight at the end of a record. I have become very adept at lifting a record off of the spinning platter.

I do not know if a clamp would transmit vibrations to the record surface on a belt driven table as much as with a direct drive table. The clamp would attach to the motor shaft and any vibrations in the motor would certainly vibrate the clamp.

[hifitommy]

not by speculatiing.

[JohnMichael]

I look forward to listening for any benefits the weight may bring. I ordered the one from E-Bay. The last time I used a clamp was the Souther now Clearaudio Clever Clamp. I only used it briefly since I did not notice enough benefit to continue using it. Depending on the mat used the record could dish out if the clamp was too tight. The weight should work well with the flat and hard surface of the Achroplat. On a vinyl day once I start the table I do not stop it until the last record is played. Rega says the motor will last longer if not turned on and off between sides.

[hifitommy]

the continous motion during record change. IF there is a small fragment of anything, you could permanently ruin an LP. when i used a low torque motor or exceedingly heavy platter i would give the platter a boost spin manuallly.

the dish warp you mention is best dealt with by using a reflex clamp at any rate, the record is more stable with a clamp and at least more table than if no weight was used so the weight will be a benefit.

unless one is using something like a walker or maplenoll tt with the 60-70 pound platter, little is to be gained in inertia by placing a weight over the spindle. thats one of the reasons i am enamored of the periphery ring with its inertia at the outside of the platter edge; that and the flattening of warps.

[JohnMichael]

My Rega is over ten years old and have yet to damage a record. I am not concerned about inertia as much as I am about firmer contact of the record with the platter. Also any benefits of reducing slight warps while playing.

[poppachubby]

You guys are awesome. I love you guys. The analog tidbits I get are great....and free!! Only the 02audionoob has enlightened me any more than you guys...

[JohnMichael]

You guys are awesome. I love you guys. The analog tidbits I get are great....and free!! Only the 02audionoob has enlightened me any more than you guys...



Worth more than a Bose Sound Dock I bet?

[JohnMichael]

Thanks poppachubby for my renewed interest in record weights. The TTweight arrived today and I am enjoying the improvement. The weight is holding the record tight against the Achroplat. I am enjoying tighter more solid bass, better ambience retrieval and less high frequency fuzz. It is easy to lift on and off of a spinning platter.

[poppachubby]

Good stuff John! I have too much on the go to consider a weight right now. Nothing better than a tweak that actually enhances, especially with the vinyl.

[poppachubby]

Some new weights I made...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4392065531_7ea3be09a3.jpg

Here's a brass unit 02audionoob...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4030/4392064013_c0820a3501.jpg

This is the one I'm most excited about. It's quite light, only a couple hundred grams, but this is the style that everyone was suggesting I try out.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/4392062605_415b0ac7b0.jpg

[JohnMichael]

Is this the beginning of a new business venture for you? Poppachubby's analog accessories made to order.

[poppachubby]

Well, I have the opportunity to make them from ends of material we use at work. So I figure, why not? BTW, did you see my new speaker stands John? Check the DIY section.

So, here it is, the official poppachubby series of turntable weights. Collect them all! Trade with your friends! In stores now!!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4392230857_f65398d58b.jpg

[audio amateur]

Love it. But I agree the wider ones are visually more appealing to me.

[hifitommy]

my v15VxMR runs into the sota reflex clamp on runout so i must use either the smaller orsonic or my planamax when i use that cartridge. with most of my other carts, it doesnt make a difference.

[02audionoob]

I wonder if I could get anyone interested in buyng the new 2010 edition 02audiopods...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2726/4392579608_06da8b11ee.jpg

[poppachubby]

It can go on the shelf next to The Acyli-Mat*TM noob Lic., or had you forgotten about that little known product by Chubby Industries?

[02audionoob]

I do remember the Acryli-Mat, now that you mention it. Those 02audiopods on my Marantz would have to be my LX model. These will be the DX model...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/4391888069_fe49cb1dd7.jpg