Best Amplifier Choices under $3000 for AV123 LS6 speakers.

[devuonoste]

Hi I am a new member and I just wanted to say hi to all members on this forum. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with AV123 LS6 speakers and what amplifiers make them sound the best they can. The only catch is that I'd like to spend $3000 or less. I currently have an Emotiva XPA-3 that is run through my Yamaha RXV1700 receiver and they sound pretty good but at times they seem a bit forward or bright to me. That may be due to a number of factors; room without treatments, recording,etc. Some of the brightness I am hearing is perhaps an increase in overall detail that has been introduced due to the addition of the Emotiva. I have read in a couple of forums that the LS speakers sound great with tube amplification and I was wondering if anyone can suggest some best bang for the buck amp or amps to run these speakers, considering my budget. I was thinking of getting a nice 2ch pre-amp and two Emotiva XPA-1 mono blocks but after listening to the XPA-3 I think I have an idea of how they would sound. I know that the XPA-1's will sound significantly better and will have a lot more power, but I think I have a small taste of what the Emotiva sound is. I still like the Emotiva sound, I just would like to try an amp or amps that are perhaps a bit more warm and smooth. I am open to any suggestions, solid state or tube or hybrid. I am also open to any other suggestions that will help. I will be getting room treatments in the near future, as I have already had discussions with a tech at GIK acoustics and we have come up with a number of room treatment products for my listening area. Please excuse the poor terrminology, as I am not an audiophile; however, I am an enthusiast and I am wanting to learn more and get more involved with the audio hobby. I appreciate any feedback. Thanks.:13:

[blackraven]

I would look at the Van Alstine FET Valve Hybrid tube power amp. 250wpc at 8ohm and 500wpc at 4 ohm. Its an excellent amp with great detail, transparency and air. It has excellent bass and a warmer sound. Another option would be to keep your emotiva amp and consider a tube pre-amp by Van Alstine or some other brand. Van Alstine is well known in the audio community and custom makes his equipment per order here in Minnesota in his home. He has a 30 day money back guarantee. He always answers his phone and emails. If you want to buy a year old Parasound Halo. I'll sell you mine so that I can buy the VA amp! These VA amps are very quiet, liquid and well built amps with no frills. His solid state amps all have a similar tube sound. His high current SS amps can drive 1 ohm loads and double their power at 4 ohms.

www.avahifi.com

[Luvin Da Blues]

I agree with Blackraven's suggestion about a tube re-amp. Her's another option to look at.

http://www.marshsounddesign.com/p2000t.html

[Mr Peabody]

My question is whether the Yamaha is used for home theater? If so, I wouldn't use tubes, do you want that many hours on parts that have to be replaced for watching movies? And, even more important those tube amps won't blend with your other channels of amplification.

If not doing home theater, dump the receiver and get a dedicated preamp. You'll get a larger improvement in sound that way. You might consider the Emotiva matching preamp or hold off until their selling the HT preamp. Of course, that may not give you warmth but the brightness you hear could be coming from the receiver's preamp section.

You could also place some rugs around and maybe a strategic tapestry.

What are you using for interconnects?

[RoadRunner6]

"..........they sound pretty good but at times they seem a bit forward or bright to me. That may be due to a number of factors; room without treatments, recording,etc. Some of the brightness I am hearing is perhaps an increase in overall detail that has been introduced due to the addition of the Emotiva..........." (devuonoste)

Bingo


"...........the brightness you hear could be coming from the receiver's preamp section..........." (Mr Peabody)

Bingo


"..........The BG Neo8.8 (as we call it) is wonderfully detailed, resolving of the tiniest of nuances..........." (AV123 website)

Bingo


I think it might be a combination of all three of the above. You have gone from a midrange receiver driving the LS6's to the a combination of the receiver preamp and a XPA-3. The XPA-3 from all the reports I have read is a very neutral sounding amp just like my XPA-5. I think you are hearing details in the LS6 you were missing before, which you might for awhile perceive as brightness as well as source or the Yammy 1700. I would recommend going with the XPA-1 which according to owners is superb in a solid state amp. It should sound very defined and neutral. My Peabody makes a great point in also upgrading to a separate pre/pro. The XPA-1's are currently on sale for $899 each. The Emotiva 2-channel preamp, USP-1, $399 is getting excellent owner reviews as well as one pro review (it also has a HT pass-thru mode for use with a HT pre/pro). For $2197 you will have an excellent sounding combination.

http://emotiva.com/usp1_feature.shtm

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/preamplifiers/689-emotiva-usp-1-stereo-preamplifier.html

RR6 :biggrin5:

[Mr Peabody]

Glad you mentioned the "theater bypass" that is a great feature to look for if you are using the receiver for HT. That way you'd have your stereo preamp for music and receiver for HT. Many preamps include this feature, it may be called by something else though.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for all your suggestions so far. I really appreciate the feedback. I think all suggestions have merit and the hard part now is to decide what route I want to take. I want to keep my current set-up for HT, as the improvement with the addition of the XPA-3 is amazing and my HT set-up is the best I have ever heard. The Emotiva route sounds great and I have already discussed getting the XPA-1's and their pre-amp and use the HT bypass. I am also open to getting a whole separate system for 2ch and use some type of speaker cable switching apparatus that switches the HT and 2ch systems going to my
LS6s. Any suggestions on how I should do that or should I just switch the speaker cables when I want to listen to a particular system (i.e. have one set of speaker cables from the 2ch setup and one from the HT setup and physically switch when I want to use a particular system). I hope there is some apparatus that I could use where all of the speaker cables go to it and I can switch between systems by using the apparatus, as I don't want to keep physically changing the wires. Basically, the amp or amps that I would be interested in would be ones that are best for 2ch listening. Hope I didn't confuse anyone with the speaker wire discussion. Thanks again for your suggestions and if anyone else has any more I welcome your advice.

[Feanor]

Thanks for all your suggestions so far. I really appreciate the feedback. I think all suggestions have merit and the hard part now is to decide what route I want to take. I want to keep my current set-up for HT, as the improvement with the addition of the XPA-3 is amazing and my HT set-up is the best I have ever heard. The Emotiva route sounds great and I have already discussed getting the XPA-1's and their pre-amp and use the HT bypass. I am also open to getting a whole separate system for 2ch and use some type of speaker cable switching apparatus that switches the HT and 2ch systems going to my
LS6s. Any suggestions on how I should do that or should I just switch the speaker cables when I want to listen to a particular system (i.e. have one set of speaker cables from the 2ch setup and one from the HT setup and physically switch when I want to use a particular system). I hope there is some apparatus that I could use where all of the speaker cables go to it and I can switch between systems by using the apparatus, as I don't want to keep physically changing the wires. Basically, the amp or amps that I would be interested in would be ones that are best for 2ch listening. Hope I didn't confuse anyone with the speaker wire discussion. Thanks again for your suggestions and if anyone else has any more I welcome your advice.

Do you live by youself in in a 1-room apartment? If not, consider two systems: one for HT and a second, stereo system for music listening.

I have two systems. In the first place other family members can watch moves or TV while listen to music, Secondly, though neither system is particulary extravagant, but the music system has, by far, the superior components -- I could not afford a multi-channel system of comparable quality.

But enough with the editorial. If I were looking for a new integrated stereo amp for under US$3k, I'd look closely at the new Krell S-300i ...

http://www.krellonline.com/imgs/S300i_page/s-300i%20-webimage.jpg

There are a good many other options, however. See this thread for a recent discussion of stereo integrated amps .... http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=292651#poststop

[JohnMichael]

But enough with the editorial. If I were looking for a new integrated stereo amp for under US$3k, I'd look closely at the new Krell S-300i ...

http://www.krellonline.com/imgs/S300i_page/s-300i%20-webimage.jpg

There are a good many other options, however.



Yes I must agree with the suggestion of the Krell S-300i. Compared to my earlier integrated amps it has shown me the colorations they have had. I find the amp very neutral in my system with excellent control of the bass. The amp is detailed and will not sugar coat a recording. On the other hand you can still enjoy the lesser recordings but you will know they are not as good as could be. I can not imagine needing more amp then the Krell is and I can not imagine having the big money to better it.

[Mr Peabody]

No need for extra speakers wires etc. Let me explain the "theater bypass", Krell just calls it "Theater Through", what this feature allows you to do is use the two channel amp system as a slave to the home theater when using home theater. You come out of the receiver's preamp output for the main L/R and plug into the preamps input for "theater bypass", then when this is selected the signal coming in bypasses all volume and tone controls and solely controlled by the receiver. The only draw back might be if the 1700 doesn't have preamp outputs but I'd bet it does, Yamaha is pretty good about featuring them. This bypass is what RR6 was saying is on the Emo stereo pre. I agree Krell are nice integrated amps but $399.00 for the Emo is a much less expensive solution. On the other hand if you are for certain getting rid of your current Emo amp then the Krell would be about as much as the two monoblocks and preamp. That would be an interesting show down. Typically, it takes some mighty good separates to match the krell integrateds.

[blackraven]

Or you could use an amp switcher like the niles audio SAS-1 or SPK-1 I use these to switch between 2 amps and 1 set of speakers. http://www.nilesaudio.com/product_detail.php?recordID=Automated%20Switching% 20Systems&categoryID=Automated%20Switching%20Systems&catcdID=10

you can usually find them on ebay for a big discount. The SAS-1 is probably the better way to go because the SPK-1 is triggered by a 100ma trigger from an amp. If one of your amps does not have a 12v trigger then the spk-1 wont work

[devuonoste]

Thanks again for your input. Mr. P., I did have an idea on how the HT bypass works and I discussed that with an Emotiva tech. The reason why I was discussing the speaker cable scenario is if I go to a 2ch system without the HT bypass or equivalent system. As an example I was told that a nice match for the LS6s would be the BAT VK-60 tube amp or the BAT VK-55 or 75. Not sure if anyone has any experience with these. Also, not sure what pre-amp would work well for the BAT amps. I guess what I'm looking for is a number of suggestions and then I will do as much research on the suggestions as possible. As all of you know, there are many options and unfortunately, I have no experience with tubes and I don't have extensive experience with any hi-end amps. I looked into the Van Alstine and the Krell suggestions above but I'm not sure which would work best, as I saw one Van Alstine FET valve ultra 550 review and it was not really that great but on the other hand I have seen many great reviews of Van Alstine. Also, all of the reviews of the Krell s300i have been great, but I am a bit hesitant to purchase, as most explain this amp as being neutral, which is great and many call it analytical though and I think I may want a touch of warmth that will ensure smoothness. Again, I may be wrong here, as I'm not an audiophile and I may be getting info mixed up here. Can anyone shed some light as to whether they think the Krell would give me the detailed yet smooth sound I am looking for. Not sure I mentioned this before, but the forwardness or brightness I whitness with my setup usually only occurs with voices. One of the worst cases I can give an example of is the number two song, 'Sogno', on The Best of Andrea Bocelli Vivere CD. Andrea's voice at times sounds like it's coming from metal dome tweeter speakers (i.e. a metalic sounding voice). Also, another factor that I forgot to mention is that I'm using a Toshiba upconverting DVD player to play my CD's for now, Sorry Audiophiles!! I know that a dedicated CD player will improve things here as well. Any suggestions for a good CD player, possibly the Emotiva ERC-1? My goal in the near future is to purchase a number of acoustical treatments from GIK acoustics and get a dedicated CD player. Anyone have any experience with Argent Room Lenses? Also, I'd like to finalize my choice for amp or amps for my 2ch setup. I know the best way to decide what works best is to listen to equipment, but I'd like as much info from other people as possible and I will do as much research as possible on the acoustical characteristics of each choice first so I can try to create a concise shortlist and then go from there. Sorry for all the questions and my lack of audiophile knowledge but everyone has to start somewhere, and I value all your opinions. Thanks.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the amp switcher info blackraven. I guess you posted while I was still writing my post so I didn't see your post until after I submitted my quick reply.

[blackraven]

I would strongly consider a Marantz CDP. It may give you the sound your are looking for. The Marantz SA8001/8003 are SACDP's that have a very nice warm sound and good bass. Another option is to buy a tube DAC, but I think the Marantz CDP's may be a good solution to your problem with out having to buy a new power amp. The Rega Apollo CDP is another good player. While I haven't hear one in a few years it has never been called a bright player.

[harley .guy07]

to answer your question in regards to Krell amps or integrated amps I have heard several systems with krell amps and I have always thought they sounded very good and can drive a number of different speakers really good. I have heard some people call them over analytical but to me they were just plain ol revealing to the source and brought more out of the speaker itself than with lesser amps. Their integrated amps have modest power ratings but from what I have experienced myself the krell's usually sound like they are more powerful than they say in the specs. I have heard them driving some very difficult to drive speakers with good results. Although I havent read the specs on your speakers I have seen them on their website and read some of their literature and they say that they are built to be a easy amp load. But I am one that is more quality than quantity anyway, I would rather have 75 watts of wonderful than 250 of ok. The only advise I can give is find some dealers in your area that might handle krell and some of the other brands you are speaking of and hear them for yourself, They might even let you bring your emotiva in and hook it up for comparison. I know when I managed a higher end shop we used to invite customers to bring in their amps and speakers for comparison listening all the time. I am in the same delima as you are when it comes to improving my 2 channel experience while keeping my theater there as well, I am more concerned with my music listening than theater and have even given thought to seperate systems for that very reason. But the theater bypass option Mr. Peabody has mentioned sounds like it could be a very viable option so you would not have to seperate your systems, Its one I am considering myself.

[Mr Peabody]

Is the Toshiba hooked up via digital, optical or coax, or using analog L/R. I assume digital since you watch movies through it but you might try both to see if either gives an improvement for music.

I recently bought the Emo ERC-1 and it is an incredible CD player. I wouldn't say it was warm.

As you stated there are a lot of options and as suggested you should try to do some listening to get a feel for some things. But without a doubt the DVD for music playback is your weakest link. You should maybe try the ERC and use the analog outputs to the Yamaha's bypass mode.

[devuonoste]

Thanks again everyone for your input. I'd like to maybe clarify that I am not looking for a warm sounding 2ch system, but I am looking for a system that has good detail and dynamics, great balance and a system that is also smooth sounding and musical. I like a system with great clarity and accurate music reproduction. Basically I'd like a system that is neutral or slightly on the warm side of neutral, as I don't want a warm sounding sytem that may lack detail and/or sound veiled. Once again I hope this makes sense. I just would like to have a system that is a bit smoother and I want to eliminate the occassional hard edged highs I get with some vocals. I know getting a dedicated CD player and my room treatments will help things considerably. Any thoughts on which CD player may better suit my needs better, the Emo ERC-1 or the Marantz SA8001/8003? If anyone has any more amp suggestions they would be greatly appreciated. Also, if I were to go with the Emotiva XPA-1's is there any additional suggestions of possible tube pre-amps or would an emotiva pre-amp work better? Any other integrated amp suggestions or tube, SS, or hybrid power amp suggestions? Thanks.

[blackraven]

I would strongly consider the Marantz SA8003. When I said it was warm, I meant its on the warm side of neutral. It has smooth bass, good detail and it also plays 2ch SACD for $1,000. If your want more detail you are going to have to have to consider the CAmbridge Audio 740c $1k or its more expensive brother the 840c.However, they lean on the brighter side of neutral but have more air and transparency with a wider sound stage. I think the Marantz will give you the sound you are looking for. There is no hard edge to its sound. It's very smooth with no digital glare that I could hear. I owned all three of these players but decided to go with a hybrid Tube DAC from Van Alstine, although on certain music I miss the detail of cymbals that the 740/840c provided. This is were these players excelled, sounding more like CDP's costing thousands more. If your interested in going the DAC route, consider any of the VA DAC's. Even his solid state DAC has a very neutral and tube like sound. All VA equipment is tuned to give that tube like sound.

[Mr Peabody]

Hearing how well the ERC-1 did against my DAC's and an excellent reference player that would be my choice to recommend for CD playback. I would bet the ERC would out class the 8003 or 840. I'm telling you guys this unit is a great player regardless of price.

For the money and value you should try the ERC and USP, you are looking at slightly above $800.00 with shipping and if they don't do the trick you can always send one or both back. The ERC has amazing detail as good as higher end Arcam players I've heard. I haven't heard the USP preamp but if it performs to the extent the CD player does you'd be getting sound quality equal to several times your expenditure.

[devuonoste]

Thanks again for all your input. I think I may purchase the Emotiva ERC-1 CD player in the near future, but I am having a tough time deciding on an amp or amps. The options I'm looking at so far are:

1. Emotiva XPA-1's with possibly the USP pre-amp or Van Alstine Pre or Marsh Pre.
2. Parasound Halo a21
3. Jeff Rowland Model 5
4. Krell S300i
5. Xindak XA-6950
6. Kenwood Supreme 600
7. Prima Luna Dialogue II
8. Phase Linear 700B (one concern is that I have heard they could possibly damage speakers)
9. Balanced Audio BAT VK55 or VK60 or VK 75 (used)
10. Van Alstine FET Valve Ultra 550 (one not so good review of this amp has me questioning this though).
11. NAD Master Series M3
12. Musical Fidelity Supercharger 550k or A1 or A300 or A5.

Lots of choices and I know some are more than $3000, but I would purchase used (e.g. BAT VK75).

These are in no particular order in terms of which I think I would like to purchase. Any suggestions on which one or which ones should be on top of my list? I know I have had some suggestions from others already but I was wondering if anyone could tell me what amps they think would work best and possibly some sound characteristics descriptions on some of the amps I have listed from those who have experience with one or more of these amps. Thanks

[Mr Peabody]

I'd stay away from Phase Linear. Not familiar with that Kenwood piece.

The Krell and NAD are integrated amps. The Krell is probably overall better but I think you may more happy with the M3's sound quality based on what you've said.

I also think the Musical Fidelity is a good choice for you and they can be had new for around the same price as the Emo monoblocks. www.amusicdirect.com

Some of those amps I've heard but I know many of that group vary in their sound signature. Except for a couple I'd scratch not a bad list.

[devuonoste]

After doing some more research I'd like to add:

- Sim Audio Moon i.5 or i.5.3
- Ayre Acoustics Ax7e
- Luxman L-505u
- Creek Audio Destiny
- T+A Power Plant
- Audio Research VSi 55

Man, it is really hard to try to pick one that I think I'd be the most happy with. Just when you think you've found one that might work best you find others that possibly fit the bill even better. Any input would be appreciated between these amps and the 12 I listed on the 14th. Thanks.

P.S. Any amps that are above the $3000 mark I would consider purchasing used.

[blackraven]

I've got the Parasound A21 and its a great amp. Lots of clean power, low noise level, great dynamics and neutral sounding. It has very good detail.It has true balanced XLR inputs.

Don't discount the Van Alstine amps. The FET Valve 550 is well worth the money. It leans on the warmer side and is a very quiet amp. excellent bass, transparency and air. It has good detail and will reveal weaknesses in your system. I've read that review and disagree with it. System matching plays and important role. His solid state amps are the real deal as well and the 440H SS amp is rated to drive 1ohm loads. There are not many amps that can do that.

But all those amps on your list are excellent choices.

[devuonoste]

Forgot to add another couple of amps that caught my eye

-Xindak A600E ($3495 at the high end palace & +/- $2500 used)
-LFD integrated Zero MKIII (+phono stage) - approx. $4000 new and would purchase used

Also, I will definitely scratch the Phase Linear 700B.

If anyone can give me their experience with one or more of the amps I've listed I would appreciate the info. Thanks.

[Mr Peabody]

How did you hear about the Power Plant? It's an incredibly good integrated amp. It will not have the brute force of Krell to handle overly difficult loads. They use a switching power supply. The amp is still hefty. It's difficult to describe the T+A because it doesn't have any feature that dominates and on the other hand there aren't any weaknesses. The bass is full, detailed, and fast; the mids are nice, highs are extended. It's not "warm" and it's not "analytical", T+A has a very seductive sound without being "warm". T+A is my favorite solid state amp. With that being said I have not heard nearly all of what you listed. Some of those amps are not in the same league as others. You need to try narrowing your field.

I had the pleasure of hearing Krell separates to T+A separates played through the same Dynaudio speakers. The T+A set up was about 1/3 the price of the Krell. I didn't think I'd ever hear better bass than Krell until hearing the T+A. It wasn't more ample it was faster and able to reveal more detail. The Krell does have a more refined higher frequency range. I'm sure there were also stars in the Krell column for power. Not that the T+A lacked, I just think the Krell can be pushed further and produce a lot more current.

[devuonoste]

Thanks Mr. P. I found out about the T+A from Stereophiles' recommended components list and then did a bit of research on them. I still need to do more research to narrow down the list but I'm finding it hard to tell where each amp. sits with respect to comparing sound quality. Many of those on the list seem to have equally good reviews but they are priced differently. I know that more often than not the price will give an indication of which has better sound quality; however, what I am trying to do is get the best bang for my buck. At the same time though, I don't just want to get a good amp for a low price and miss out on a really good amp at a medium price. Also, I want to ensure I don't just decide on what amp is the best by just chosing which has the highest price tag, as that doesn't always guarantee you get the best. The amps I've listed generally range from about $1200-$4000 and I am willing to spend up to $3000 to try to get the best possible (i.e. I would expect to find amps that are > $3000 new should be priced within my limit in the used market). So far the amps which interest me the most are the Sim Audio Moon i.5 or i.5.3 ; Prima Luna Dialogue Two ; Xindak A600E ; LFD integrated Zero MKIII ; Ayre Acoustics Ax7e ; Luxman L-505 and Creek Audio Destiny. Not far behind are the Musical Fidelity A-5, NAD Master Series M3, Krell S300i, Parasound Halo a21 and Xindak V30. Now with more research, I may be switching my preferences around. It's a tough choice and I know I'll have to narrow my choices down to about 2 or 3 candidates and then take the plunge on the one that may be the best deal at the time. Then, once I have experience with it I can keep it if I like the sound or sell and purchase something else until I find one that suits my needs best. I think my problem is the fact that I don't have that experience. As an example I have no clue what the difference between a signature Krell sound is vs. a signature Parasound sound is. I know that's generalizing quite a bit, as I know not all Parasounds sound the same and all Krells sound alike but I think you know what I'm getting at. It would help me if I could get a number of people letting me know what they think the best 3 or 4 amps would be in terms of sound quality and then I can research a bit more and finalize my choices. I know there's some subjectivity around the choices but I just want to ensure I get something that has great detail, soundstage and imaging and good dynamics while ensuring the sound is smooth and never harsh but I don't want a warm sounding amp that will lack finess, dynamics and detail. I guess I would like something that would be ever so slightly on the warm side of neutral. I would like an amp that sounds as natural as possible and I don't necessarily need the dynamics you'd get with Emo XPA-1's or Parasound JC1's but I do want to have something that portrays life like performances and be able to turn up to respectable levels (I know that's subjective; but as an example my Emo XPA3 at approx. 250 wpc in 2ch has great dynamics that would most likely exceed what I expect from a dedicated 2ch setup that I would like to purchase). Thanks again.

[frenchmon]

devuonoste...If you want a smooth warm system that's not boring, then I would give the Marantz reference gear or the Musical Fidelity a listen. Both have great mids and rhythm, but I must say the Musical Fidelity has this synergy to the music have not really heard in other gear. It has great detailed bass and highs as well. You can get good used gear over at audiogon, but you-may want to try musicdirect.com or audioadvisor.com so you can send it back if you don't like either. While the T+A is a very good system, I did not find it warm. I find the CDPs transparent and detailed and very clear....best I've ever heard in detail and transparent.... If you want something that's warm and makes you want to grove and boogie, its the Musical Fidelity.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the info frenchmon. I must have been editing my post above yours when you posted.

Are you refering to the Musical Fidelity A-5?

[Mr Peabody]

Brands like the Sim, Krell, BAT, Musical Fidelity, T+A are going to be more of your heavy hitters. The Luxman and Creek will be good but they really don't run in the same pack in my opinion. Creek is good in it's range though. I don't know if you'll like Luxman, the limited bit I've heard has been very clean and detailed but the top end was a bit accentuated while the bass a bit subdued to my taste.

From what you describe it sounds like the T+A Power Plant would be ideal but if you use the Toshiba I'm afraid you might find the top end some what bright until getting something different. But this will happen with any accurate amp you get. The only way you will get smooth using the Tosh is to buy an amp with rolled off or very colored high end. I'd personally recommend a better CD player first. You should snag one of those Musical Fidelity X-ray v8 before they are gone, close out $799.00 at www.audioadvisor.com I'd also recommend buying new within your budget for an amp and get it from some place that allows 30 day return so that you don't have to mess with trying to sell and possibly lose money in your process.

I didn't realize T+A was getting any press I'll have to check that out. I hope more people in the U.S. become aware of them.

[devuonoste]

Mr. P

Which CD player would you recommend more the Emo ERC-1 or the Musical Fidelity Xray V8?

[Mr Peabody]

If price is not an object, the X-ray is better in my opinion. The difference being the ERC sounds rather neutral presenting good detail and large sound stage. The Musical Fidelity will show you what audiophiles are describing when they use the term "musical". The
X-ray allows the music's rhythm and pace to be heard, the disc sounds more like music. The highs are very sweet and allows cymbals to fade naturally. The X-ray has a heavier bass response than the ERC. The X-ray is a bit laid back and everything is very smooth or sweet with excellent midrange. The X-ray has many good attributes of a tube presentation. Trumpet sounds great, it has the tonal quality it should and pierces the sound stage like it should but never offensive. It makes you just want to bump up the volume control because it sounds so good. The ERC is a fine machine but the X-ray had a retail price of over $2k and you can hear it. In addition, the X-ray is closer to my type of sound and great synergy with my CJ gear because both are very musical in nature. The ERC is faster though.

For the purpose of just having another secondary player I'm keeping the ERC and if I use it in my work out room system I play mostly Rock or other energetic music in which the ERC would be better suited. If Rock was your main taste in music you still may prefer the ERC as well but if you listen to a variety and enjoy a more musical presentation from the music yu will appreciate what the X-ray can do.

[RGA]

For power amplifiers I would look into Odyssey Stratos or Khartago power amplifiers. I would not want to spend much more money that this for solid state amplification - a couple of review heaveyweights said the Odyssey room was one of the best sounds of the recent Rocky Mountain Audio Fest Show in Denver Colorado. Beer budget - champaigne sound.

Add to that a nice 20 year warranty and well I liked the Stratos more than more expensive power amps from Bryston and Krell. Plus you can have the amplifiers tailored to suit your needs before you buy which is nice.

http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-khartago-mono.html

"I also liked the Odyssey Audio room - as usual, for their well-balanced approach to music reproduction: separation, harmonics, dynamics: everything is there to an appropriate degree for the $8K or so price of a system. This is a high-end system on a low-fi budget." http://www.audiofederation.com/blog/

Worth a look - why pay more for a bigger name without the substance? Sometimes you do but honestly I have heard some of the suggestions here that I do not even consider "good" let alone high end or terrific and for high prices. Though I will not mention which ones here.

[devuonoste]

Mr. P, I think the MF xray v8 has moved to the top of my list for a disc player. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm hoping to be able to purchase one for Christmas. RGA, I hadn't looked at Odyssey amps for months and to be honest I was more interested in the Emotiva amps after visiting some forums. I think my opinion on them has changed though. I revisited their website and I read the numerous reviews and it seems like they are just as well built if not better built than the Emo's and I think they may have a smoother, more natural sound than the Emos. I think they may be what I'm looking for. I still am interested in the Sim Audio, Prima Luna, Xindak and Musical Fidelity amps as well though. I'll have to do some more research. Thanks for everyone's input so far. If anyone has any additional comments on the differences between Odyssey amps and the amps I have on my list it would be greatly appreciated. Also, I'm wondering what pre-amp most people are using with the Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes? Is the Candela pre-amp from the Odyssey audio site, a good option?

[Mr Peabody]

If you want an X-ray you should try to nab one as soon as possible the $799.00 is a close out and when they are gone, they are gone. Unless you can find one used.

I typically find that when putting separates together that same brand, especially pre & power, tend to have better synergy than mixing brands. So if you desire to go with Odyssey you should also go with their preamp. Many people talk about using tube preamp and solid state power but in my limited experience with that I was not impressed with the result. You might want to start a thread asking about Odyssey here, i know Hyfi has one and others may have used them. I don't know that much about them but from comments they don't sound like the warm sound you were looking for. On the other hand, RGA, has a rather unique opinion on how music should sound so if he likes them they are probably more toward warm than the Krell or other high current high power brands you might be considering.

[RGA]

Actually the Odyssey is not warm - at least not the Stratos amps which are the only ones I've auditioned. Big powerful crisp clean sound - more open than the darker sounding Sim Audio Amps - open powerful like Musical fidelity and Bryston but without the nasties.

Depends on your taste - I like the amps from Sim Audio but I alos liked the sound of Odyssey if you want a more "impact" kind of sound.

I've never heard Odyssey preamps but I've read on forums that people seem not to like them quite as much - the preamp has more of a "say" on the overall sound than the power amp.

SOmething you may want to consider is the Rotel RC-1082 - I bought one last week for review purposes because I needed a baseline preamp to make comparisons. I've never been much of a fan of Rotel preamps but this one is considerably different and a lot better than previous entires from Rotel. I compared it to an ARC and the Rotel was able to differntiate different CD players to a far higher degree which means that it's more of a straight wire with gain the the stamped on signature of the bigger audiophile approved name ARC.

Rotel has come out with a new 1580 preamp to replace the 1082 and right now the preamp is going for less than half price.

I'm not saying it's the best preamp going by any stretch but it's way better than you expect when you see the name Rotel attached. TAS chose it as the best budget preamp last year and it would serve as a very solid hold over until you can afford the $5-$7k preamps that will really make a worthwhile improvement. Finally a Rotel with solid bass - non treble fatigue and a pretty solid midrange without thinness common to amps in this price class (or SS generally).

Here's the TAS review http://www.avguide.com/review/rotel-rc-1082-stereo-preamplifier

Basically a $1300 preamp that you'll be able to get for $600 while they're clearing them out. The new 1580 appears to be exactly the same with some cosmetic differences ans sells for $1600. So it's worth considering and you should be able to find a place to audition - with Odyssey it's mail order. For big SS power amps making the gamble is easier - but the preamp is the machine that has more of a sound.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to take a look at the Rotel Pres. The reason why Odyssey amps caught my eye is that through almost all of the reviews I've seen the general consensus is that their amps have great detail, soundstage, imaging and dynamics and are considered to have smooth highs and to be fairly musical and also natural sounding. I hope that is what the Stratos amps sound like. Can someone shed some light on that for me. I'm not really looking for a warm sounding amp that lacks clean, open and impactful sound. I just want to ensure that the amp has mids and highs that are smooth and natural sounding. Thanks

[RGA]

Also I am currently using a set of Shengya Power amps with the Rotel preamp and getting very good results. The monoblocks are ridiculously overbuilt - 40lb beasts outstanding build construction and very powerful - without SS glare. The SS amps in terms of build are completely outclassed by the Shangya - and so is my Audio Note. The picture kind of sucks but they look real cool in real life - the monoblocks are about a foot and a bit deep - they're massive monoblocks. Don't have the preamp so can't comment but on price also worth a consideration

http://grantfidelity.com/site/Shengya_CV15_PM150

[devuonoste]

RGA, when you mention the SS amps are you referring to the Odyssey amps? Also, can you give some more details around the differences between the Shengya and Odyssey amps, etc.? Also, in your post explaining the Odyssey amps, which Musical Fidelity Amp or Amps are you referring to, as I have the MF A-5 on my list and I was wondering if you have experience with that amp? Also, are you saying the MF amp or amps have an open and powerful sound but with some nasties (I assume you mean harshness and/or grainyness) or are you saying the Odysseys are similar to the MF and Bryston amps and they all have open and powerful sound without the nasties? You also mention you like the Simaudio amps and I'm wondering which one you are referring to and if you can give me some more details on what the sound quality characteristics are? Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I'd like to get as much info as possible. Thanks a bunch.

[RGA]

The problem is that i am not a big fan of buying components and forcing them together. I'll give you an example. I compared an Audio Note entry level $2700 CD player to a half that price Sim Audio CD player through Rotel preamp and power amp and Sonus Faber Toy loudspeakers. The AN CD player sound far more open showing the listener far more of what is on recordings. The trouble is that it also wasn't the least bit friendly to the lesser recordings and in some cases sounded like it was straining on vocals. Neither CD player was a great match for the Rotel separates and Sonus Faber - so I'd keep looking if those were the speakers/amp I had. Still the AN cd player sounded marvelous with AN amp and AN speakers (or Quad 2905 speakers) and completely sounded like a different CD player - so the lesson is you have to be careful what you match.

Sim Audio for me and Celeste before it has always sounded deader and a little leaden. So you get an amp generally that is far more pleasing across a variety of systems but at the same time sounds a little safe - a little veiled and a little tubby. This is not a bad decision at all because Sim Audio doesn't know what system the customer is using and with most systems leaning brighter the Sim gear will balance that out.

Musical Fidelity - separates or integrated I've not been much of a fan of - they're technically good but they always sound mechanical and too much like an "amplifier." The whiz bang solid state artificiality overrides a sense of naturalness. These are reasons I am not generally a fan of solid state amplifiers - regardless of whatever famous name on the front happens to be.

Still we all have to make certain compromises but if I were you I'd be trying to assemble a system where I can get the most out of each component I can and not overpay for brand name hype. Grant Fidelity is a prime example of a Canadian Company that is basically re-branding some of the better Chinese manufacturers under their own name - plate. These Chinese brands have been making a LOT of the bigger name US components for years. It's no different than computer makers - Apple and HP do not make a single part in any of their computers - it's all made from companies most people have never heard of and selling a big brand name.

Even the Rotel preamp I mention is made in China - you may find a Shengya or Jungson that is exactly the same for a lower price.

Some things that I don't love about a lot of companies - changing model aesthetics without really changing the sound - it creates higher depreciation. MF changes models very quickly - and it's not about making the sound better - SS is a very very slow mover when it comes to sonic improvement. The Odyssey gear is a prime example - the stuff easily competes with most everything currently on the market at more money. Yet it is essentially re-badged 20+ year old amplifiers from Germany called "Symphonic Line"
Check out the Khartago power amp review here http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/odysseyaudio_khartago.htm

My view of this is not to spend large money on "names" when you are buying largely unheard gear. Spend wisely and a little less money. Then when the time comes introduce higher level higher priced (which isn't the same) gear to your system. You may end up liking an MF power amp over the Odyssey - but you may very well be like me and think the reverse and say gee I spent half the money and got twice the sound quality or even if that is just tempered with "pretty much the same quality - then either way you're ahead of the game.

I don't want to dump on MF - plenty of folks like them - but it's just that I have not heard them yet sound like something I would want to own. They lean mechanical to me - in the Bryston side of the sound spectrum. The Stratos doesn't entirely get away from that either but it's Solid State and in general Solid State tends to have a leaness and a 2 dimension presentation that good tubes don't suffer from. That is why I like the Rotel preamp because it manages not to sound so sterile and a little more liquid and valve like which impressed me considering the price.

The Shengya monoblocks on the other hand are tube hybrid and have the SS bass depth and grip but without that fatiguing thinness. Though I am in the very early stages with this monoblock combination.

I have not heard the MF A-5 specifically - nevertheless - for that price of about $2500 and I could have Khartago monoblocks and a Rotel RC 1082 preamp and pocket $400 (or use the $400 for an even better preamp)

If I could not audition before buying I know which I would buy. The flexibility of the separates alone would have me rule out the MF or really any integrated amp in this price range.

[devuonoste]

Thanks RGA. I think all your points are valid. I wish I lived in or at least near a larger city so I could audition some audio gear. Unfortunately I live in a small town and the only audio gear I would be able to audition would be relatively inexpensive receivers. I even had to order my Yamaha rxv1700 about 4 years ago. The reason why I did that is because an acquaintance of mine gave me really good deals on all of the equipment I bought from the store and at the time I mainly wanted something that would be good for HT. The Yammy has been pretty good and I am using it as a pre-amp for my Emotiva XPA3 for my fronts and center and the Yammy takes care of my rears. My point is, I can't audition gear unless I travel to a large city and I don't see myself doing that for some time. That is why I'm trying to get as much input from as many individuals as I can as well as doing as much research as possible so I can try to narrow my list. Unfortunately, it is evident that views on different aspects of sound quality are very subjective and it makes it harder to try to chose from a long list of possible candidates. The one good aspect of getting as many views as possible is that at least I can see if there are any reliability issue patterns with any candidates on my lists and the general quality categories that the candidates fall within. The more specific aspects of sound quality within each general quality category often comes down to personal preference. Detailed explanations, subjective as they may, around the sound quality attributes of a particular amp or amps helps, as I can start to see some patterns with some of the candidates (e.g. It seems to me that everything I have read about the Simaudio Moon i-5 indicates that this amp is definitely not a bright sounding amp). I just want to say that I appreciate all of the input I'm getting and I just want to keep doing some research before I take the plunge. By the way, I'm really interested in the Shengya monoblocks and Rotel Pre-amp setup. Can you please keep me in the loop with your thoughts on the set-up you have once you finalize your review of those products. Thanks

P.S. How different do you think the Rotel RC 1082 is from the new model (1580)? Also, you mention that the Odysseys are good SS amps but they don't entirely get away from the SS lean sound and 2D presentation and you mention that the Rotel pre-amp sound is more liquid and valve like; therefore, I assume the combo would sound nice. Also, I'm interested to see if you feel that the combo of the tube-like Shengya monos + the Rotel pre-amp would lead to a combo that would be a bit too warm?? I guess from your initial observations you'd say not but I hope you can confirm and give more details at the end of your review. Finally, the MF xray v8 is a cd player that I'm interested in gets great reviews but I'm wondering if the Shengy/Rotel+MF xray v8 combo would be too warm or if the Odyssey/Rotel/MF xray V8 combo would balance out a bit more? Sorry for all of the questions but I am just trying to see what an experienced audiophile or audiophiles think the combos would be like.

[Feanor]

Thanks RGA. I think all your points are valid. I wish I lived in or at least near a larger city so I could audition some audio gear. Unfortunately I live in a small town and the only audio gear I would be able to audition would be relatively inexpensive receivers. ....

With all due respect, Devuonoste, you are asking for more specific advice than people can be expected to give you without hearing the specific combinations of two or more components you cite. You are going to have to be content with the general descriptions of maker's "house sound", or sound of specific components, of the sort that have been mentioned.

Bear in mind that personal preference and the type of music you listen to are big factors -- no component is perfect, so you choose the imperfactions to which you have the least objection.

Speaking for myself, I listen to classical music mainly and a lot of my classical is chamber music. Probably related to these music preferences, I my priority is high transparency, i.e. lots of "air" with high resolution, plus a neutral to very slightly warm or dark tonal balance. Furthermore my typical listening level is <70 dB. (BTW, the latter aspect has a great deal to do with the amplifier power you need: do not accept generalizations about how much power you need with a given speaker, for example.)

But if I listened to more 'popular' music genre, especially rock, I might very well perfer an amp with lots of "PRaT", (pace, rhythm, and timing), which really means fast, powerful large- & small-scale dynamics. To get this aspect I might be willing to give up some transparency and/or tolerate a brighter tonal balance.

The reality of not being able to audition a lot of equipment is more or less everyone's problem, although it's worse in you live in a smaller community. In this case I believe it's prudent to shop conservatively after doing good research, e.g. online, (which you are doing I must say). By "conservative" I mean a few different things:

Stick to heard-of brands that have a good reputation for reliability as well as sound -- and that are likely to have good resale value.
Don't go away over your budget with the conviction that a much more expensive component is going to guarantee permanent happiness with the sound you get.
Avoid components that have a reputation for being bright, edgy, grainy, or having an otherwise disagreable or eccentric sound.

[RGA]

Feanor is correct devuonoste -

There are simply too many component possibilities when you buy component based systems. Fortunately a lot of makers are now building complete audio systems that people can listen to and decide if it's for them.

Once you start mixing 6 different brands all bets are off when asking for advice because there are too many variables to account for. The odds any reviewer has tried all the components in question is very small - and then the odds they tried them all together is next to zero - and certainly not likely in the exact same room.

Just yesterday I read someone say that he felt Odyssey was unbearably bright - depending on the rest of the system that could be possibly - I auditioned Odyssey with Gershman Acoustics X1/Sub1 speakers which is a darker leaning loudspeaker. On B&W's it could be a screetchy experience - who knows have not tried Odyssey with B&W.

Choosing a speaker with a treble response that does not hint at brightness is the first step.

[devuonoste]

Feanor, I agree with what you are saying but I just was asking RGA to give me his final thoughts on the current setup he is reviewing when he has completed the review and I asked a question of what his thoughts are if I were to add the MF xray v8 cd player. I don't think it is out of line to ask for specific details on his current set up and based on his impressions of his current setup I don't see why asking what his thoughts are on adding the MF cd player would be out of line. I'm just looking for specifics when people have experience with a certain setup and non-specific/best educated guess when I ask to add something that the reviewer has not auditioned. I know a lot of this is subjective, as I've mentioned numerous times and I know that there are numerous variables that come into play when discussing audio setups but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that always the case. I've seen tonnes of forums where individuals are discussing amps or cd players or speakers and they often don't mention other things like room accoustics and treatments, cables, etc. My point is that I am looking to get info on amps and a cd player and it is up to me to get as much info as possible and then determine if the combo will work well with my speaker system, room accoustics,etc. If a reviewer gives me their impressions as well as giving me details around other parts of their set up then that helps me even more and the info is much appreciated. I read my post above and I don't think I asked anyone to give me specifics around two or more components that they have not had any experience with. I just mentioned that the specifics I get from people that have reviewed certain products is helpful to me and I know that even though helpful it is subjective and also that there may be variables within their setup that are going to be different than mine. I've stated before that I'm not an audiophile and I'm new to this and I value everyone's opinion and I am just looking to gain additional information.

[Feanor]

Feanor, I agree with what you are saying but I just was asking RGA to give me his final thoughts on the current setup he is reviewing when he has completed the review and I asked a question of what his thoughts are if I were to add the MF xray v8 cd player. I don't think it is out of line to ask for specific details on his current set up and based on his impressions of his current setup I don't see why asking what his thoughts are on adding the MF cd player would be out of line. I'm just looking for specifics when people have experience with a certain setup and non-specific/best educated guess when I ask to add something that the reviewer has not auditioned. I know a lot of this is subjective, as I've mentioned numerous times and I know that there are numerous variables that come into play when discussing audio setups but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that always the case. I've seen tonnes of forums where individuals are discussing amps or cd players or speakers and they often don't mention other things like room accoustics and treatments, cables, etc. My point is that I am looking to get info on amps and a cd player and it is up to me to get as much info as possible and then determine if the combo will work well with my speaker system, room accoustics,etc. If a reviewer gives me their impressions as well as giving me details around other parts of their set up then that helps me even more and the info is much appreciated. I read my post above and I don't think I asked anyone to give me specifics around two or more components that they have not had any experience with. I just mentioned that the specifics I get from people that have reviewed certain products is helpful to me and I know that even though helpful it is subjective and also that there may be variables within their setup that are going to be different than mine. I've stated before that I'm not an audiophile and I'm new to this and I value everyone's opinion and I am just looking to gain additional information.

No criticism was implied, Devuonoste. I was only tuning your expectations.

[devuonoste]

Feanor, I understand where you are coming from, I just wanted everyone to know that I'm not expecting any individual to go out of his/her way to give me a detailed explanation of what they think a combination of audio components would sound like if they haven't had any experience with them. If I come across that way on my posts I apologize. I just want individuals to share their experiences if they don't mind, as I would do the same if I had experience in an area that someone requested some input on. Also, I want to reiterate that I appreciate all feedback and I have no hard feelings about your post above, I just wanted to clarify my intentions.

[frenchmon]

Devuonoste...Its all about the sound you like. Music is really a subjective thing that only you can tell if you like the sound or not. For me, I like a warm smooth detailed sound. I listen to mostly jazz, classical, blues and some classicl rock. Jazz the most with some classical artist like Yo Yo ma. I have always been a Marantz lover from the late seventies until now. I've never been one to like really bright sounding stuff or too dark a sound. I do like the tubby sound as it sounds more natural to me . I have always been interested in Musical Fidelity and wondered what all the fuss was about.

Now mind you I've owned Marantz gear in the past, and still own a Marantz 7.1 reciever and SACDP now. But I was looking to upgrade sense my move from Carolina to St.Louis.
As soon as I got here to STL, I decided to go into a local Pawn shop and what do I see...A Rotel amp RB 1080 at 200wpc, the matching control amp RC 1090, the matching CDP RCC 1050 and the matching Tuner. The entire outfit new would have been a little over $3000 but I was out the door at the Pawn shop only spending $300 for everything. My thoughts where, man...I dont like Rotel....to bright. But you know what, The Rotel aint bad. The preamp is actually very good...and the 200wpc amp aint bad either. The CDP while ok was the week link. So after Mr. Peabody mentioned the MF at a discounted price, I called up Audioadvisor and asked about returns. He said I got a thirty day window to return it. After ording the unit it was at my house in three days. It was a dud so I sent it back and got another one and it was a very good fit with the 1080 and 1090. It out classed the Rotel after break in. It has a warm tubby tonal sound...the sound that I loved. So I began to wonder about the other MF gear such as amps and pre amps, and what I learned through reading what others have said is that MF give you a warm tube sound with much of their gear. Its the way they design their gear. In my opinion MF has this synergy with the music like no other brand I've heard and I've heard a lot as a citizen of North Carolina where we had plenty of hi fi shops. Not saying I have heard them all but a lots. While researching Musical Fidelity, I discovered that many Marantz lovers got rid of Marantz for Musical Fidelity or paired the Marantz reference CDPS with MF amps.

Now I don't know what RGA means when he says MF sounded "mechanical and too much like an "amplifier. But if he means what I think he means, then from reading what those who own Musical Fidelity have said, they have say the complete oposite....they feel Musical fidelity has always been one of those companies who has had a warmer smooth sound. Even the preamps are warm while not being boring from what others are saying. And if the X-Ray is any kinda indication of what MF is all about, then I have to believe them. While listening to the X-Ray and the Conrad-Johnson tube amps in Mr.Peabody's listening room , it was a match made in heaven. Even with the X-Ray connected to my Rotel amp and control amp it has a warmer sound compared to the Rotel CDP and my Marantz SACP in redbook. I'm now considering getting a MF preamp to try with the X-Ray. But do keep in mind, what ever you decided to order if new, you do get a chance to return. Im sold on MF. I do believe the week link in my system now is the speakers My system is a work in progress.


frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the info frenchmon. I'm really interested in purchasing the MF xray v8. I also agree with what you said about the MF amps, as I think after reading a number of reviews the general consensus is that they are smooth and on the warm side of neutral. I guess that's where the subjectivity comes in, as you mention RGA seems to have the opposite view. Not a big deal though as I value all opinions and I always keep in mind that an audio setup is made up of a number of items and that coming up with a matchup that pleases you can take some trial and error. Also, as I have mentioned before, I plan to use some room treatments in the near future and that should definitely increase the quality of my audio setup.

[frenchmon]

Its a matter of taste.If you want the X-Ray do it soon, I called them up today and asked about how much they had left, and he said they cant tell me whats left, but they have very few in stock. You might want to call them up soon. As for room treatments, I do need to experiment a bit with that as well. My two channel room is not to small but not to big either. Its about 18x15 in the basement away from the wife and kids. It very comfortable to just go in there and do my thing. Its big enough for my system a nice 7 ft book shelf with about 150 of my books, a nice chair and my bike sitting in the trainer for workout. There is a sliding glass door that leads into my fenced back yard so I do have a nice view with lots of sun coming in. I have wall to wall carpet on the floor. I need to do some reflection points on the wall. I've got some nice oriental ruggs that we used in Carolina that does not go with the scheme of the house here in St. Louis that I'm going to have cleaned and put on the walls.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think the X-ray with Rotel would be too warm. The X-ray has strong bass and even though the high end is very sweet, it is extended nicely.

If not able to audition you should think about buying from online places that allow 30 day return. www.amusicdirect.com carry a line called Audio Electronic which is a budget line built by Cary Audio http://www.musicdirect.com/products/brand.php?b=AUDIO ELECTRONICS I haven't heard any of this gear but Cary built it to compete with the Chinese import stuff and it may be worth your while checking it out. They also offer the 30 day return. Another such dealer www.acousticsounds.com Between the two a pretty good selection of lines.

[RGA]

Thanks for the info frenchmon. I'm really interested in purchasing the MF xray v8. I also agree with what you said about the MF amps, as I think after reading a number of reviews the general consensus is that they are smooth and on the warm side of neutral. I guess that's where the subjectivity comes in, as you mention RGA seems to have the opposite view. Not a big deal though as I value all opinions and I always keep in mind that an audio setup is made up of a number of items and that coming up with a matchup that pleases you can take some trial and error. Also, as I have mentioned before, I plan to use some room treatments in the near future and that should definitely increase the quality of my audio setup.

Frankly I would not advise buying a "warm" set-up or a "bright" set-up. The latter will be annoying faster for most but eventually overly warm systems can sound dull and veiled. I am not a fan of a lot of big name SS (or small name SS) amplifier makers because to be blunt Solid State is not a natural amplifying device. "Transistors are highly un-linear and need a lot of correction (feedback of some sort) to have a bandwidth wide enough to be able to reproduce any music signals, they are not natural voltage amplifiers."

Hence the sound "mechanical" and the more experience you have listening to more and more amplifiers the more this sound becomes annoying. I started out with Bryston as my favorite - we all start somewhere.

So we have to make choices and for most people we try to fix one part of a system playing off the strength of another. To me this gets us nowhere. If you have bright speakers and you want to buy a tube amp to try and soften the treble - you'll end up playing upgraditus forever and you'll never get anywhere except broke. You should not be buying amplifiers or CD players or cables as tone controls - tube amps should not sound warm and tubby in the bass or rolled off in the treble and if they do it's the component's problem or a system mismatch. If the speaker sounds bright then replace the speaker - it's no good - famous names have zilch to do with it. Most of it is audio jewelry - expensive and not worth it compared to just as good for far less cash.

Take the Rotel - it made the entry level Audio Note sound a little lean compared to the SS Sim Audio amp. That leanness it could be argued would sound "bright" to some people listening. Now typically people associate Tubes with warm and so the bright sound would automatically mean that listeners would blame the Rotel RC 1082 - well it's a bright preamp they'll say. Yet with the Sim Audio CD player - a lot less information on the recording is passed through - it sounded deeper and darker - no one in the room would say the Rotel was bright. The Rotel preamp to its credit does exactly what a good preamp should do - have features and tell it like it is to the power amp. Now the Audio Note builds the entire stereo chain and they are tailoring the CD player specifically for their amplifiers and ONLY their amplifiers choosing Transformer properties based upon how it will react to their own built transformer in the preamp stage which in turn is designed to react to the power amps and then the type of wires that will be used in the voice coil winding of the speakers. So that "brightness" with the Rotel preamp/power amp/Sonus Faber Toy is simply note there when that same CD player is used with their gear.

So how a MF CD player will react to a Rotel Preamp is impossible to say. I am currently reviewing a marvelous little Grant Fidelity Tube DAC 09. This is a $300 DAC that is also a preamp, headphone amp - operates in both SS and Tube (as a dac or a preamp) and even had USB inputs - coaxial and optical inputs. Good build quality.

It's a pretty big upgrade over the internal DAC's of both my CD players. But interestingly enough it works so far better with the Rotel than with My Audio Note OTO integrated where there is some overly mushy sound.

Your budget allows for more - I personally would find a decent second hand transport and an external DAC - if I had to do it all over again I would have my system as "separated" as possible. Preamp and monoblocks, Transport/DAC.

As an side you asked about the 1580. My understanding is the RC-1082 is the first Rotel preamp to be a completely different design than all previous Rotel Preamps - they have confusing number schemes - but all the units that look like the RC 1082 and 1580 are the new series of their flagship line. The RC 1580 I have not been able to get conformation on but looking at the feature set and aesthetics it appears to be virtually the identical amp but with some cosmetic changes - the RC 1082 and RC-1580 were both being sold at my dealer and the remote control IR was moved slightly and the RC 1082 has black side panels while the 1580 has a brighter silver. So depending on what looks nicer to you - frankly the RC 1082 looks better IMO because the silver is matted not as glaring as the 1580 and at half the price it looks way way better :)

Now there are other fine preamps out there that you and, heck, I might like better but it just so happens that they're closing them out and for $600-$700 for the quality on tap and the features and "new" it's going to be real tough to beat.

I like other preamps better - I could purchase an Audio Note M1 preamp for about $1k which is a stunner sonically - but it does not play well with most off brand brands - it simply doesn't make a good review preamp - not having a phono stage also doesn't help - no remote control less inputs no headphone out, less warranty. So you make some compromises.

Every single preamp and power amp will be well reviewed by someone someplace - and quite often you will hear the same components being described polar opposite of something else - I've heard Bryston being described as warm and Sugden compared to Krell. Worse is the misinformation that tubes are lush and warm. Some are but the best ones IMO are not.

Some tube cd players sound more like a guitar amp lover made them - stick in a tube to get a buffering mushy effect. This is not IMO what good tubes amps are designed to do. I don't want a fuzz box added to my system. This may help out most bright speakers but on highly resolving speakers this is just mush.

The Odyssey stuff is commendable mainly because it's attractively priced and the AudioFederation which carries IMO some of the best brands on the planet made some interesting points about their sound for the money that they heard.

It's not a bad idea to take a long deep look at the lesser names out there because the big name audiophile brands may have excellent marketing but along comes the likes of an Odyssey. If you read the TAS review - you'll note that Magico's speaker designer/owner was the guy who recommended the reviewers give Odyssey a try because they build their speakers voiced with Odyssey. It compared favorably to $100k+ power amplifiers it has to get a look IMO. And to even be in the ballpark with the bigger hitters is impressive.

Granted just because the amps are $115k doesn't necessarily mean I'd like them or you would. Nevertheless...it's worth some pause.

I am fortunate that my Dealer carries tons of brands - Sim Audio, Meridian, Musical Fidelity, Classe, Bryston, Linn, Rotel, Arcam, NAD, YBA, Creek Audio, Cambridge Audio, McIntosh, Audio Note, Antique Sound Labs, Sugden and a bunch of others here and there. No wonder they seem to be in a good mood - you never have to hard sell - someone is bound to like something eh? There is so much stuff out there and to be honest most of it is pretty good. You could buy a Sim Audio I7 and find a good speaker match and be happy - you could do that with Rotel with the 1082 and their matching power amp. I compared this front end with the Sim Audio i7 and the results with the same speakers and the Sim Audio CD player were not really worlds apart. Both were quite excellent really. You could drop the Classe or the MF in and you may also get a sound you like a lot.

In the other room they had an all Meridian system with a very different voice but quite excellent results - and it's digital. Completely the opposite of my Audio Note Single ended low powered tube set-up. Now I won't be trading in the Audio Notes but the Meridian set-up sounded very good indeed and no hint of edgy irritation.

Others have suggested staying with the safer brands - I agree - I just would stay with safer brands with more upgrade options. Spend less at first until you get a good handle on your sonic preferences.

[devuonoste]

Thanks again for all of the input. I think the idea of spending less at first until I get a good handle on my sonic preferences is a good idea. My intentions from the get go essentially are based on that very idea, as my goal is to do as much research as possible and get the best bang for my buck that I can. Then, once I take the plunge and buy something, I'll at least begin to increase my experience with audio gear, and learn a bit more about my sonic preferences, because I'll be able to compare that purchase with my current setup.

[Mr Peabody]

With out too much expense you could pick up the X-ray and the Emo preamp. This would give you a good base line to work from. The preamp has the theater bypass if you wished to keep the Emo power in the HT set up. Or, for not much more pick up the 1082, you'd have to check on a bypass, may have to compromise there. Any way if the 1082 sound like RGA says and the X-ray, your system should sound pretty nice. I think you'll be impressed with the X-ray and either dedicated preamp will be a pretty large improvement over the Yamaha for music preamp. The Emo offers some nice features like the mentioned bypass and sub out with two way crossover, and as I stated I like same brand for synergy. When upgrade time comes the Rotel might be an easier sell along with getting more of your money back.

[devuonoste]

Mr. P., getting the cd player and a decent pre-amp is a good idea. I hope to purchase within the near future.

[devuonoste]

Hi RGA,

I'm wondering if you could tell me where they are selling the Rotel RC-1082's for half price? I don't think you mentioned where the sale is and I can't seem to find out by using google. If you could give me that info I would appreciate it. Also, I did a bit of reading on it but by no means a lot, and I think that this preamp does not have a HT bypass or equivalent under another name, unless I missed something. Can you confirm please. Thanks

[RGA]

The Rotel may not be for you - I did not know you were looking for a Home theater bypass. I do not believe it can be done. This is Rotel's two channel line-up. They have a home theater side and maybe there is an amplifier to consider.

For Rotel's lower price you would have to check with Rotel dealer's in your are to see what they've got going. My dealer is soundhounds in Victoria BC Canada - they likely won't sell you something if Rotel is anywhere near you because they have restrictions on regions of sale.

So if you can't find this unit on discount and or you can't live without the home theater bypass then certainly explore other options. The Rotel was mainly used as an example.

However from the same line-up there was the Rotel RSP 1069 which is supposed to be a very good preamp/processor that went for $2200 - so if this has been replaced then they may be on a clear-out. Soundhounds is a two channel only stereo shop. No home theater rooms. I can make zero comment on it - I have never even seen in it in person but http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/rotel_rsp_1069.htm

[Mr Peabody]

RGA, he wants the preamp for stereo and his Yamaha for home theater. The 1069 is a full blown processor.

To buy Rotel online (temporarily) check: www.spearitsound.com they used to be a Rotel dealer for years and recently parted ways so they are liquidating inventory via the net.

[Mr Peabody]

http://www.avguide.com/review/rotel-rc-1082-stereo-preamplifier

I saw a few featuer lists for the 1082 and I didn't see a bypass. It does feature several input including phono with built in preamp, headphone amp and input for mp3 player.

RGA, glad you pointed this preamp out, it's good to see Rotel breaking their mold. I'll have to get a chance to check some of their new gear out.

[frenchmon]

I have the Rotel RC 1090 preamp paired with the X-RAY and they actually sound good together. There is one on audiogon for $525.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I think the 1082 is the same as the 1090, but only the 1090 does not have the bass, treble and balance controls as the 1082 does. I think the 1082 replaced the 1090.

[Mr Peabody]

I think the 1082 is the same as the 1090, but only the 1090 does not have the bass, treble and balance controls as the 1082 does. I think the 1082 replaced the 1090.

I don't think so from what I've been reading. The 1082 is a departure from Rotel's "house sound". This has me interested in hearing what that means, I was not a fan of Rotel's sound. Not bad, just not my thing.

[RGA]

To give the 1090 the benefit of the doubt it is "possible" that this series was also a departure - The TAS reviewer unfortunately wasn't specific in mentioning which prior series he was talking about. Rotel has a bucked of models and I find it doubtful anyone would have seriously auditioned every preamp coming out Rotel. I have not heard the 1090. The 1090 though seems to me to be more of a feature loaded preamp with the kinds of connections on offer and the LED display. I know the 1090 was fairly well thought of as well for being a good bang for the buck unit.

For me there is no home theater - I am building a third system that will be dedicated for home theater down the line - of course I've been saying that for the last 9 years and I still haven't bothered - which is off because I have a very sizable DVD collection. Maybe I should try the Marantz surround receiver I bought several years back. I have never actually tried it as a surround sound amp. :)

The Absolute Sound reviewer Chris Martens does try to discuss the sonic departure for the Rotel http://www.avguide.com/review/rotel-rc-1082-stereo-preamplifier.

I suppose Rotel figured if you wanted a home theater unit you would buy the RC 1069 and would not go for a stereo preamp.

[frenchmon]

I don't think so from what I've been reading. The 1082 is a departure from Rotel's "house sound". This has me interested in hearing what that means, I was not a fan of Rotel's sound. Not bad, just not my thing.

I've read that review as well about the house sound. But I assure you that the 1090 is not of that character. In-fact from what I have read of the 1090 over at Club Rotel at htguide.com, the 1090 is pretty much 98% that same unit as the 1082 only without the bass, treble and balance nobs. And like the 1082, it has no digital connections...it is pure analog. I think the guy doing the review said the 1082 was the only preamp by Rotel to do this, he must have not seen the 1090. Its purely two channel analog. It had very favorable reviews and many who have used this preamp along with the others prefer the 1090. There was even one thred that ranked the Rotel preamps and the 1090 and 1082 as well as the 1082 and 1090 in ether order, was the way they where ranked by a few who had or heard both units. I believe I read some where the 1082 was made after the 1090 was discontinued.

BTW...I may have a chance to get away from the wife and kids this weekend. If so do you want to do the shootout with the EMO and Rotel CDP? IF so I can bring the Rotel amp and preamp 1090 as well . Let me know.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

To give the 1090 the benefit of the doubt it is "possible" that this series was also a departure - The TAS reviewer unfortunately wasn't specific in mentioning which prior series he was talking about. Rotel has a bucked of models and I find it doubtful anyone would have seriously auditioned every preamp coming out Rotel. I have not heard the 1090. The 1090 though seems to me to be more of a feature loaded preamp with the kinds of connections on offer and the LED display. I know the 1090 was fairly well thought of as well for being a good bang for the buck unit.

For me there is no home theater - I am building a third system that will be dedicated for home theater down the line - of course I've been saying that for the last 9 years and I still haven't bothered - which is off because I have a very sizable DVD collection. Maybe I should try the Marantz surround receiver I bought several years back. I have never actually tried it as a surround sound amp. :)

The Absolute Sound reviewer Chris Martens does try to discuss the sonic departure for the Rotel http://www.avguide.com/review/rotel-rc-1082-stereo-preamplifier.

I suppose Rotel figured if you wanted a home theater unit you would buy the RC 1069 and would not go for a stereo preamp.

And what features would that be? I dont see any features on the 1090 that are not offered on the 1082 other than analog connections for a dvd player on the 1090 where as the 1082 has the same connection but its labeled aux 3. The units are basically the same units.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Oh I forgot to mention...the 1090 has balanced connections where as the 1082 is with them.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Any thoughts on a pre-amp with HT bypass or the equivalent that would be comparable in sound quality to the Rotel 1082 or 1090? Does anyone know how the Emo. USP-1 would compare in sound quality to the Rotels mentioned above?

[frenchmon]

Dont know if this is in your price range but there is a Conrad - Johnson PV 14L that has a ht bypass. Now that would be a serious preamp to match with that X-RAY.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1261274317&/Conrad---Johnson-PV-14L-Remote

[Mr Peabody]

Frenchmon we can put some gear together this weekend if you want. You can bring the Marantz player if you wish as well. For ease of switching things though I may just use the 500i and then if we want to hear a particcular player on the CJ gear after comparing we can.

The PV-14 or 14ls2 are good suggestions. The issue may be a variation of sound between mains and center when using HT. When I saw that, I'm like, duh, when was I going to think of that.

Unfortunately, no one here has the USP, you should check it out for us. :) I'll have to look around to see what other preamps I can find with a bypass.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the info. I'll look into those pre-amps.

[Mr Peabody]

Weren't you considering the MF A5? It has a bypass, the NAD M3, most any Krell integrated and preamp.

* Looks like Parasound a2100 & P7offer bypass.

* Belles 28 or 21, maybe others (don't know anything else about this preamp except it has the bypass)

* I've read Bryston & Cary offer the feature in some preamps.

* The Adcom gfp-750 does and I've heard this is a great preamp in passive mode.

* If you hit the lottery a couple Boulder pieces do a preamp 2010 and the integrated 865

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the info Mr. P. You are correct that I have the MF A-5 on my list as well as the NAD. I just wanted to look into a nice pre-amp to go with possibly the Odyssey Stratos Extreme monos or equivalent monos, as I'd like to keep my options open. I am trying to get as much info as possible; however, it's becoming rather difficult to decide what direction I want to take, as there are so many options that would sound really well and could possibly satisfy my tastes. Also, I thought I may go with a pre-amp with the bypass and the xray cd player for now and see how the sound of my system changes. I know you discussed the difference between the center and the mains above, but I'm wondering if a pre-amp with the bypass works in a way that the pre-amp and power amp work in 2channel and then when you use the bypass, the system operates as I have it now (i.e. the yammy and power amp working together for HT). That's the way the Emotiva rep. explained it to me. Can you let me know if I'm missing something? Once again I thank all for all of your suggestions, as it's nice to get info on a number of different candidates that I probably wouldn't have looked into.

[Mr Peabody]

You have it correct how the bypass would work. Any sound difference would possibly come from the stereo preamp if the sonic signature was very different, like tubes, for instance. But just passing the signal through it may be minimal.

[Mr Peabody]

Hey, if you are considering the Conrad Johnson, I'd be willing to sell my PV14-ls2 in order to step up to a CT-6. Mine is in perfect condition. Of course, it has some time on the tubes. I still have original box and manual. If interested let me know and I will shoot you a price.

[devuonoste]

Mr. P. I am interested but I may have to wait until early next year to purchase, as I'm having a tough time convincing my wife about the cd player and the pre-amp. I may have to wait until next year to get both. I guess I can't complain, as I bought the av123 LS6's, the Emotiva, an audio rack and a number of CD's within the last few months. I appreciate the offer, and if you can wait that long I would consider purchasing yours. I am still open to any info on audio setups, as I still want to get as much info as possible.

[haodzuno]

thanks for a good info

[Mr Peabody]

I'm sure I'll still have it, I'm not actively posting it for sale. But if I did sell it I'd have a good reason to step up :)

[devuonoste]

Thanks Mr. P. I have a couple of questions for you regarding the CJ. When in HT bypass and the Emo and Yammy would be working to produce the sound, does the CJ have any effect and are the tubes working when in HT mode? I don't have any experience with any of this but you mention above about the possible difference in sound between the center and the mains and I'm wondering if there is an effect or were you mistaken. I would think that current would not flow through the tubes unless the CJ is in 2ch mode and working with the Emo but I'm not sure. If the tubes are active during HT it is not a huge deal, as I don't use HT that much but my 2ch vs HT listening does vary and it would be nice not to have to worry about putting time on the tubes in HT. Also, I know I should do some more research, but I'm wondering if you can give me a ball park figure on how often I need to change the tubes and the availability of tubes and how hard is the process of changing the tubes. Also, if and when I buy, should I buy a supply of tubes in case they will no longer be available and where is the best place to buy tubes? Finally, can the tubes be changed to different types so as to modify the sound?

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks Mr. P. I have a couple of questions for you regarding the CJ. When in HT bypass and the Emo and Yammy would be working to produce the sound, does the CJ have any effect and are the tubes working when in HT mode? I don't have any experience with any of this but you mention above about the possible difference in sound between the center and the mains and I'm wondering if there is an effect or were you mistaken. I would think that current would not flow through the tubes unless the CJ is in 2ch mode and working with the Emo but I'm not sure.

* Me? make a mistake, surely you gest. :) The preamp would have to be on and needlessly putting time on the tubes is a real concern. Passing through the preamp could effect the sound, how much, I'm not sure.

If the tubes are active during HT it is not a huge deal, as I don't use HT that much but my 2ch vs HT listening does vary and it would be nice not to have to worry about putting time on the tubes in HT. Also, I know I should do some more research, but I'm wondering if you can give me a ball park figure on how often I need to change the tubes and the availability of tubes and how hard is the process of changing the tubes.

* Unless a 6H30, a tube averages about 5,000 hours of use. I've had my gear for a couple years now and haven't had to change one yet. Knock on wood. I haven't had my preamp open, tubes just plug in though and shouldn't be hard.

Also, if and when I buy, should I buy a supply of tubes in case they will no longer be available and where is the best place to buy tubes? Finally, can the tubes be changed to different types so as to modify the sound?

* CJ stocks the tubes they use in their gear and recommend not changing from what they used originally. However, many people who use tubes seem to enjoy replacing them with various brands and possibly other types if compatible. When changing the brand of tube used it often times does change the sound.

Really, in the type of set up you are looking to do, solid state would probably be better, or at least easier and lower maintenance.

[Mr Peabody]

P.S.: How often tubes are changed depends on how many hours of listening you log in during a period of time. Tubes are readily available, mostly online. We've got some experienced tube guys here if and when you get to these points. I'm still basically a novice and not really into "tube rolling". Tube rolling is what it's called when you experiment with changing out tubes in a piece of gear.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the info Mr. P. I agree that SS would be the simplest method; however, I am looking for the best possible sound I can get. If I have to fiddle around with the gear a bit I don't mind. As long as parts are readily available and as long as the device is reliable and the only work I have to do is maintenance type work like changing tubes or cleaning. I still need to wait a while before I puchase something and I will try to accumulate as much info as possible before I do. With my statement above I'm not trying to say that I wouldn't purchase SS gear or that SS gear is inferior, but I just want to establish that sound quality is my #1 priority and I don't mind doing some extra work for that if it means the sound quality will be better. Who knows, I may end up with SS gear if there's something out there that is the best bang for my buck in my price range. There's a lot of interesting combos out there and I hope to find the best I can for the budget I have set. I know almost everyone is in the same boat with respect to this challenge.

[Mr Peabody]

As far as the CJ preamp you can't tell any difference between it and solid state functionally. I just know some day down the road a tube will need to be replaced. I thought it was an exceptional preamp performance wise.

Mine is a PV14LS2, not sure what the difference is between L & LS2 except the LS2 was $2500.00 retail. http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/classic_products/a-pv14.html

[Mr Peabody]

Also, CJ does offer solid state preamps, you'd have to check the CJ website to make sure whatever you considered had the bypass. www.conradjohnson.com If the bypass wasn't an issue Audiogon usually has some older CJ preamps for well under $1k.

[devuonoste]

Mr. P. and frenchmon,

Thanks for the great review of the MF xray. I hope I will be able to purchase one in the near future. It's nice to see members getting together to compare audio gear, as it certainly helps those who are looking to purchase.

[frenchmon]

Mr. P. and frenchmon,

Thanks for the great review of the MF xray. I hope I will be able to purchase one in the near future. It's nice to see members getting together to compare audio gear, as it certainly helps those who are looking to purchase.

The X-ray really is a very good machine. It performed better than I expected. I've got it pared with the Rotel 1090 preamp and 1080 amp and there is a nice synergy to the system. But I believe the X-ray will give synergy to just about any good gear. At some point I will be upgrading the remaining gear I have to take better advantage of the X-ray.

After listening to the ERC-1 last night in MrPeabody's two channel room, the ERC-1 had a chance to shine and that it did. We switched the ERC-1 between the tube DAC by Audio Note and the DAC's of the ERC-1 depending on the music and the ERC-1 just sounded better and better no matter what we put in. MrPeabody went old school and played some Stylistics, Ohio Players and some Led Zepplin...all from the 70's and the ERC-1 never missed a beat. He then played Vannesa Williams new CD, and some Chick Corea. We also listened to a little YoYo Ma and some other tunes and the combination of the ERC-1, Rotel 1090 preamp and the ADCOM amp was a nice midfi combination. Any one would be pleased to have that system as their main system. The Emotiva ERC-1 really is a good solid state player connected to the right gear. You wont find a better player at the $399 price point. I think Cambridge has a player in this price range. I would love to do a shootout with it and the ERC-1.

But I do believe the main attraction of the night was the Dynaudio speakers. I mean, those things are incredible. They are so neutral and yet so dynamic at the same time. I mean we just crank those things up loud and they just continue to sound fabulous. For a two way speaker the sound is just awesome. I wish I had other speakers to do a shootout with those bad boys. I may have to just drag my Paradigm monitor 7v3 over to see if they can even come close to what the Dynaudio can do, but I dont want to look to foolish. I would love to do a shootout with the Paradigm Studio Series or the Signature Series, or some of the Canton Reference Series...or even the PSB speakers.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

I totally agree a shootout with the speakers you mentioned would be interesting, also, the Emo vs Cambridge shootout would be interesting. Sounds like you guys had a great time. I wish there was someone close by that I could do the same thing with. I'll have to talk some of my buddies into starting up the hobby.

[frenchmon]

Well the funny thing is I lived in North Carolina all those years and I had not one buddy who was into hifi. I met Mr.Peabody while I was still in North Carolina on these very boards. Then My wife decides she wants to transfer , tired of North Carolina... we moved to St. Charles which is a suburb of St. Louis thirty miles out. I just got lucky I suppose.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

I think in order for Cambridge to have a chance we'd have to get our hands on at least a 740. When I was shopping CDP's a couple online retailers who sold both Cambridge and NAD both told me the c545 was better than the 640, the ERC hammered the c545 pretty good in my book. Their rec could be based on me telling them I didn't want a laid back sound too. The X-ray was better but we have to keep in mind the X-ray's original retail price. Based on the way Emo markets their gear it's more realistic to put the ERC against more expensive players.

[devuonoste]

Does anyone have any experience with Conrad Johnson MF2500A amp? The reviews I've read have all been positive. I know many have said to purchase new from a place where you can return if you're not happy with the product; however, I am still open to purchasing used if a good deal arises on something that most people say is a good product. Also, if anyone has any thoughts on what pre-amp would work well with that amp I would appreciate that as well. I wonder if the Conrad Johnson PV14 LS2 and the MF xray cd player would make a good combo with this amp?

[devuonoste]

Mr.P and frenchmon,

I read your thoughts on the Monoprice cables and I'm glad I purchased the BJC RCA interconnects for my Emo/Yammy. I know that there's a lot better out there, but I'm glad I chose BJC over Monoprice. It's amazing how many people say to go with Monoprice though; however, I can see your point about not knowing any better until they have been compared to other cables. It is nice to see you guys are doing these comparisons with gear and sharing it with the members of this forum. Great job and Thanks for the info.

P.S. - any thoughts on the CJ MF2500A amp and possible combo with the MFxray and CJ PV14 LS2?

[frenchmon]

devuonoste...from the limited reading I have done on the CJ MF2500A it sounds like it would have great synergy with the X-Ray. Some say it has a tubby sound. You may want to check out this thread where some talk about the CJ MF2500A http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1152297904&openflup&2&4#2

[Mr Peabody]

I have not heard the MF-2500 but a friend of mine had one, it is a very good amp. It's MOSFET, as the 5500 is. So it will have more of an earthy dark sound but I doubt if it sounds tubby. If CJ tube amps aren't tubby I can't imagine the solid state being that way. Herman also has a good ear and I doubt he would live with an amp that sounded like that. I'd love to hear one in my system, the combo of CJ tube & their solid state.

[Mr Peabody]

Check this MF2500 info

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/conradjohnson_mf2500.htm

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/1299cj/

There are user reviews here at AR as well but I haven't read them

[devuonoste]

Thanks for the info frenchmon and Mr. P. I appreciate your input.

[frenchmon]

Mr.Peabody...I personally have no experience with the CJ MF2500A. But there is an earlier model to which you may be referencing. There was the model CJ MF2500 as well.

The reviews that I read where for the 2500A which was a later model that was pointed out by those who owned it. It was they that said it had a tube sound.

Now when I say tubby, I did not mean that in a negative way. Iwas just stating the sound of tubes. I would say your CJ gear sounds tubby meaning your system has the sound of tubes. I hope I did not affend you by that remark.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

Oh, you said "tubby" which is a bad thing in most books, you mean "tubey" or "tubie" which ever, as in "tube like". Tubey is a good thing generally. I guess that would depend on the sound you are looking for and how one views the sound of tubes though.

[devuonoste]

I agree with your assessment based on the reviews that are out there. It seems like the vast majority of people that have or have heard CJ gear have the same opinion about their sound characteristics. Judging from their explanations I take it that the CJ house sound is basically what I'm looking for. I'm sure there are other choices out there that may be just as good and maybe even better in some respects but I'm not sure that there are many that would be better for my tastes in the price range I am looking for. So for now I am really interested in trying some CJ amps. I'll probably have to wait until early next year but CJ has found a top spot on my list so far. I'll have to do some more research to see what CJ amp/pre amp combo I should go for and also do more research to ensure I want to go the CJ route.

[Mr Peabody]

Were you interested in tube or solid state CJ power amps?

It's funny I used to run Krell and still have a 500i integrated. Krell is great at what it does but after about reaching my limits of what I could afford I still wasn't satisfied. I began to wonder about tubes, and added my first piece which was my Audio Note 1.1x DAC. I liked the result. I started looking for some tube gear and auditioned some Audio Research which is well respected and I heard some older gear before of theirs I liked but the gear I brought home I didn't care for at all. No other tube gear was in town so I was like you hitting the internet and researching. I can't remember how I found out about www.spearitsound.com but they were a CJ dealer and since no one in my area carried it they were willing to work with me. I picked out the PV-14LS2 and a MV60 tube amp. Once I got it set up and listened I knew those pieces were here to stay. What got me thinking about CJ was buying one of their solid state DAC's from a friend and I liked the sound a lot. Remember I was used to Krell, the MV60 rated at about 50x2 pushed my Dyn's well enough but I occasionally found myself wanting a bit more horse power. I found another MV60 on Audiogon and bought it. Coincidently, the amp was right here in town. I sent both back to CJ's factory to have them converted to mono and output of 100 watts each. CJ was a trade off, it doesn't go as low as Krell or have the iron grip control but not much out there does, but I really enjoy my CJ system. The MV60 uses EL-34's in the output stage which is known for excellent midrange, the MV60se and some of their other tube amps use 6550's which have a bit more punch and control over the bass but gives up a bit of midrange sensation.

Any way keep me in mind if you decide on CJ and my preamp might work for you.

[devuonoste]

Hi Mr. P.

I am not 100% sure what I will go for but for now the CJ MF2500A sounds interesting, because the information that I gathered from reading the reviews is that it has the tubey sound I'm looking for and also the power needed for good dynamics. I think your pre-amp would work well with that amp as well as the MF xray v8. I hope to be able to purchase early next year. I will definitely let you know when I am able to purchase some audio gear because I'll most likely be interested in your preamp.

[frenchmon]

IF you get the CJ gear and the X-ray, and if it sounds like MrPeabodys CJ pushing my X-ray, then I'm sure you will fall in love with the sound.

frenchmon

[Feanor]

Forgot to add another couple of amps that caught my eye

-Xindak A600E ($3495 at the high end palace & +/- $2500 used)
-LFD integrated Zero MKIII (+phono stage) - approx. $4000 new and would purchase used

Also, I will definitely scratch the Phase Linear 700B.

If anyone can give me their experience with one or more of the amps I've listed I would appreciate the info. Thanks.

Yep, scratch the PL 700B. For years I lived with a Phase Linear 400 -- years wasted until I learned how much better sounding stuff was out there.

Lots of choices in amps. One more comment re. integrated vs. separates. There a great integrateds out there that offer much better value than separates. On the other hand, RGA is totally correct that a pre/power combination offers a lot more flexibility for fine-tuning your system and upgrading. It's a trade off -- you have to make your personal decission.

A 4-5 years ago, I bought and integrated and regretted it for the reasons above. However I'll be retiring in a few months and with a bit less income to play with, I'd go integrated if I need a new amp. If I had $4000 to "invest" I'd check out his Pass Labs INT-150 on Audiogon (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1261787939&/Pass-INT-150-Lightly-Used). The INT-150 is a stellar amp by all accounts.

http://www.passlabs.com/images/integrated/int-150.jpg

[frenchmon]

Another audio buddy retiring? Must be nice. Road Runner is also retiring, Could be audio bliss.

[devuonoste]

Feanor, I hope you will enjoy your retirement. The Pass Labs looks pretty nice. You are correct about there being a lot of choices with amps and the fact that separates give you more flexibility. As it stands now, I'm really interested in the CJ gear; however, I will keep doing some research on all possible setups.

[E-Stat]

However I'll be retiring in a few months and with a bit less income to play with, I'd go integrated if I need a new amp. If I had $4000 to "invest" I'd check out his Pass Labs INT-150 on Audiogon.
I could easily live with such an amp as well. My '81 Stasis has been utterly reliable. The INT-150 is one of the newer integrated designs that really doesn't use an active preamp stage. Some "nekked" pics can be found here. (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/passlabs2/int150.html) :)

rw

[devuonoste]

I just pulled the trigger on the MF xray V8!!! I think that will be a good first step in improving the sound of my setup. I'll post my impressions once it comes in and I have listed to it for a while.

[Mr Peabody]

Congrads, I think you'll be very happy with it.

[frenchmon]

That make three of us who are enjoying the X-RAY. I did let mine break in for a while. And when you get the Conrad Johnson, the X-ray should be a good fit. What cables are you using with your gear? Tomorrow I going to get a 3 pair of Analysis Plus cables. http://www.analysis-plus.com/prod_interconnects.html. I'll let you know what I think about them after I've had time to check them out.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

A+ looks pretty good. I think the ones you ordered are showing locking RCA's, I like those. The prices get up there don't they? I didn't look at the entire site but I didn't see speaker connects right off. You probably should have gotten a set of the XLR's.

[devuonoste]

I am using the BJC RCA interconnects between the Emotiva and the Yammy. Any suggestions on what interconnects I should get to hook up the Xray to the Yammy. Hopefully, I will be hooking it up to a CJ amp/preamp in the near future, so if you could give me some suggestions that would be great. Frenchmon, I will be looking forward to your review of the A+ cables.

[Mr Peabody]

The BJC are fine for what you want to do now but once you upgrade the amp/preamp you might want to experiment with better cables.

www.spearitsound.com are CJ dealers and carry Siltech. They bought out the Siltech inventory. Last check their were some MXT New Yorker left in stock. These are excellent with CJ gear. I have also used them with various CD players. I mention this in case you wanted to grab them before they disappear. They aren't cheap though. They do have some cheaper in that series but I've never heard them. Some day down the road hopefully Frenchmon and I can get together to do some comparisons once he gets the A+

[frenchmon]

A+ looks pretty good. I think the ones you ordered are showing locking RCA's, I like those. The prices get up there don't they? I didn't look at the entire site but I didn't see speaker connects right off. You probably should have gotten a set of the XLR's.

Mr.Peabody cables can be pricey that's for sure. Because I bought mine from a local dealer I got a 20% discount off retail. I had a good conversation with him yesterday and he gives great discounts because he does not have the over head any more and he sells a great line of audio gear from his house. I asked him about Epos speakers M22i and he said he would sell a pair to me for $1500. That's a steal. I have not seen that deal any where on the internet. He sell all kinds of high end audio and cables. IF any one is interested his web site is http://www.speakerandstereostore.com/.

The A+ has many speaker cables ranging for $79 to $2,900. I didn't want the XLR cable seeing I didn't have true balanced connections. This is what A+ says about the cable I bought


For audiophiles who don't need XLR connections, we developed the superb-value Oval One interconnect.

It uses a braided signal conductor in our proprietary hollow oval design along with a braided outer shield mated to a true 75 ohm RCA connector with a low-loss dielectric.

Because Oval One is handmade using first-rate materials, it will outperform other cables costing many times more.

The 100-percent shield coverage ensures the very low noise floor that's essential to experiencing the entire dynamic range of symphonic music.

The RCA connection is solder-less, using a compression contact technique that spares the dielectric from damage that heat from soldering can cause. This technique also eliminates the poor signal transfer that results from a cold solder joint.

Our fussiness adds to the cost of the cable, but the performance increase is worth the added care.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I am using the BJC RCA interconnects between the Emotiva and the Yammy. Any suggestions on what interconnects I should get to hook up the Xray to the Yammy. Hopefully, I will be hooking it up to a CJ amp/preamp in the near future, so if you could give me some suggestions that would be great. Frenchmon, I will be looking forward to your review of the A+ cables.

Well I would say do a little research on what you think is a good cable. The only reason I had the monoprice cabe was because It was a quick fix to get my Rotel gear connected with out using the red and white cheap stuff. I knew I needed cable and planed on getting cable after all my upgrades. But hanging out with Mr.Peabody and doing a shootout with monopriced,BluejeanCable, Audio Note, and Transparent Cable, I saw how much detail I was missing. I decided to spend twice the price of BJC to get a more balanced, clearer, detailed sound. I read all the consumer reviews I could find about the Analysist Plus cable I could find. I had looked at this cable before but never really gave it any consideration until Mr.Peabody mentioned it. So I decided to take a closer look and liked what I saw. So do your research, ask those who have good cable and just go with you gut feelings.

frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

I forgot about you deciding not to use XLR.

[devuonoste]

I purchased a pair of Siltech MXT New York's, based on Mr. P's suggestion, reviews I read and the fact that they are over 50% off. I know I may not be able to hear all of the benefits from having good interconnects through my Yammy, but I think they will come in handy when I purchase my 2ch amp or amps.

[Mr Peabody]

I think you'll like them. Bassite and one other member also use the NY'er.

[devuonoste]

I just received my xray today !!! I hooked it up with some cheap cables for the time being, as I'm still waiting for my Siltechs. So far I am very happy with the sound but I will wait to give my detailed thoughts until I hook up the Siltechs and let everything break in for a while. Not sure if the sound will actually improve, as there has been much debate on breakin, but I will let everyone know what I think.

One quick question though about the XXX power supply. I notice there is a slight rattle coming from the back where the interconnect connectors plug in (i.e. the multi prong connectors from the xray, etc) if you shake the unit a bit. Is this normal? I know some of the sleeves in the multi prong receiver connectors on the XXX were sticking out a bit and I pushed them in, and for some reason one of the hex screws on the back plate was not screwed in all the way. I screwed the hex screw/bolt in and ensured all connectors were OK but I still get a slight rattle if I shake the XXX gently. I know you're not supposed to shake components but I notice the rattle when I unpacked the XXX and I must have shaken it a little when I took it out of the wrapping. Hope there's no major issues; everything seems OK otherwise.

[frenchmon]

I just received my xray today !!! I hooked it up with some cheap cables for the time being, as I'm still waiting for my Siltechs.

I also hooked mine up with monoprice and I ordered new cables last week and still am waiting....


So far I am very happy with the sound but I will wait to give my detailed thoughts until I hook up the Siltechs and let everything break in for a while. Not sure if the sound will actually improve, as there has been much debate on breakin, but I will let everyone know what I think.

When I first got mine, it did sound good out of the box. I did read an review that said no breakin was needed. But at the time brand new, it sounded no better than my Rotel and I was disapointed. But the more I played it, the more it out classed the Rotel. So yes, I think it will improve once you get it broken in, it will sound as its designed to sound.


One quick question though about the XXX power supply. I notice there is a slight rattle coming from the back where the interconnect connectors plug in (i.e. the multi prong connectors from the xray, etc) if you shake the unit a bit. Is this normal? I know some of the sleeves in the multi prong receiver connectors on the XXX were sticking out a bit and I pushed them in, and for some reason one of the hex screws on the back plate was not screwed in all the way. I screwed the hex screw/bolt in and ensured all connectors were OK but I still get a slight rattle if I shake the XXX gently. I know you're not supposed to shake components but I notice the rattle when I unpacked the XXX and I must have shaken it a little when I took it out of the wrapping. Hope there's no major issues; everything seems OK otherwise.

I dont know if it normal or not, but I have no such experience with mine. I heard no rattle and everything looks fine. But if you sense there is something wrong, or if you are not satisfied, call Audio Advisor and they will send you another X-ray. I don't know how many they have left, so if you are going to exchange, do it asap. When I first got mine, there was a problem, so I called them, they said send it back when they sent me the labels. I then got them to send me another Xray at cost and when they recieved the defective one, they credited me my money back for the defective unit. I totally trust Audio advisor and I will have no problem purchasing from them in the future. And I totally love the X-ray.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Just got my Siltech interconnects and I was wondering how long does it normally take for the cables to break in? I've read some threads where guys are saying it took between 50-100 hours. Also, how long for the CD player to break in? I probably have around 25 hours on the CD player. After the first few hours of playing the CD player with the cheap interconnects, I did a comparison with my Toshiba upconverting DVD and I did not hear a significant difference, so I'm hoping that the addition of good cables and some more break in time will change things. At first I thought there was a difference and although the sound is great, when I switched to the Toshiba, I heard no significant decrease in sound quality. I know the Yammy may be a bottleneck; however, I should be hearing some difference, as the addition of the xray and the siltechs is not a cheap upgrade. I am no audiophile; however, I have a good ear for music and I do hear when my system improves (e.g. when I added the Emotiva and especially when I went from my Onix Rocket RS1000's to the AV123 LS6's). I will give my thoughs after I let the CD and the interconnects break in for a while.

[Mr Peabody]

Does the Yamaha have a "direct" mode so when listening to analog sources the signal bypasses any processing? If so, use it if you already aren't.

When you add a powerful amp you will hear a large difference in power (loudness) and control. A CD player or cable may not make that type of difference, it's more detail, character and response. I'm not sure the problem but there should be a significant diference when adding the Siltech, right out of the box. I actually did not detect any burn in. If there was it wasn't to where I noticed. The X-ray should blow away the Toshiba. You are using analog left/right RCA cables, right?

You aren't hearing any difference in the bass or high end response? Maybe try the Siltech between the receiver and the front two channels of the amp to see if any effect noticed. Also, when listening pick out a song and let it play for 30 seconds to a minute, pick out a couple details to focus on, then make the change and repeat, see if you hear any difference. If not, there is some type of set up problem or the Yamaha preamp section is even worse than I thought.

I'm sorry, I know you must be disappointed. But both products are very good. Any one else you know have a system you might try the gear in?

Where did you buy the Siltech from?

[devuonoste]

Hi Mr. P.
I bought the Siltechs from Spearit Sound like you suggested. I haven't made the comparison with the Siltechs yet, as I thought they needed to break in. I will try that ASAP. I will also try to switch the cables from receiver to the front two channels on the amp. The only comparison I made was when I had the cheap interconnects from the CD to the Yammy. I do use the direct mode every time I listen to 2ch. I did the comparisons as you suggested and I did notice a slight improvement; the sound was slightly more natural than the Toshiba; however, I am wondering if that was just a bias, as I was probably expecting the xray to be better. I did not get an improvement in detail, which suprised me and bass response was not improved either. I hope my problem was the cheap interconnects. I hope there will be a difference when I compare the xray and the siltechs over the Toshiba. With that being said, the sound is really nice, I just was hoping for a more significant improvement and I may get that once I do the comparison with the new interconnects. Not sure if this will make a difference but I have the xray hooked up to the CD-R in the regular audio component jack section of the Yammy and the Toshiba on DVD, in the digital input/output jack section of the yammy. The Toshiba is hooked up using coaxial digital out to the DVD digital input on the Yammy. The xray is just hooked up via the regular audio component section of the amp via the siltechs. Not sure if this may make a difference, but connecting to the digital input/output jacks may have better sound quality. Not sure though. I know the xray and the siltechs should improve things and that's why I am a bit dissapointed but I know they are great products and I don't doubt that the problem was with the crappy interconnects and/or there may be a setup issue I need to resolve. Also, I think in the future my purchase will be even more justified when I get a good amp for my 2ch setup. Another good thing is that I paid about $1350 vs $3250 when taxes, duty and exchange were added so I feel I got an amazing deal.

[Mr Peabody]

You definitely want the X-ray hooked up to the analog jacks. You can hook the Toshiba via digital, especially if you still use it for movies. But hooked up digital you will be using the Yamaha DAC's. So when comparing music you are comparing the Yamaha to the X-ray. The X-ray still should be quite a bit better. let me know what you hear with the Siltech in place with the X-ray.

[devuonoste]

Mr. P. I guess I should be OK with the setup I have, as the Xray is hooked up to the Audio component jack section which should be analog. Would there be a difference from CD to CD-R in that section, as the CD-R has a IN(PLAY) and OUT(REC) section where I could hook up the two RCA's and I obviously hooked them up to the IN(PLAY). I didn't hook up to CD because I have my blue ray hooked up to CD in the optical section via optical cables. Not sure if it will make a difference if I hook up to CD in the Audio component section vs CD-R. I know this may be confusing but there are a tonne of input/output hookups back there.
-

[Mr Peabody]

If I understand your set up correctly, it shouldn't make a difference

[devuonoste]

Well, I spent some time comparing the xray and siltechs with my Toshiba and I'm having a tough time telling the difference. Sometimes it seems like the xray is considerably better with respect to detail, dynamics, clarity, soundstage, the sound seems more enveloping and then I switch again to find that the differences are not significant and at times are not even audible. I switched the siltechs and put them between the yammy and the emo and put the BJC from the xray to the yammy and I still get the same result. One of my problems is that it takes a while to switch between the xray and the toshiba, as I have to get up, take the disc from one and put in the other and then sit back down and switch modes on the yammy; however, it isn't that much of a wait and I should be noticing a significant change but I've tried to focus on certain details within a track over about a minute or so and I switch back and forth a few times to ensure I'm doing a detailed analysis. I'll have to get my best friend to have a listen as it could be my ears. We both played the same instruments growing up and had the same music teachers and we both had a great ear for music growing up, but I guess you never know if my hearing has deteriorated to the point where it's affecting my analysis.

[frenchmon]

Just got my Siltech interconnects and I was wondering how long does it normally take for the cables to break in? I've read some threads where guys are saying it took between 50-100 hours. Also, how long for the CD player to break in? I probably have around 25 hours on the CD player. After the first few hours of playing the CD player with the cheap interconnects, I did a comparison with my Toshiba upconverting DVD and I did not hear a significant difference, so I'm hoping that the addition of good cables and some more break in time will change things. At first I thought there was a difference and although the sound is great, when I switched to the Toshiba, I heard no significant decrease in sound quality. I know the Yammy may be a bottleneck; however, I should be hearing some difference, as the addition of the xray and the siltechs is not a cheap upgrade. I am no audiophile; however, I have a good ear for music and I do hear when my system improves (e.g. when I added the Emotiva and especially when I went from my Onix Rocket RS1000's to the AV123 LS6's). I will give my thoughs after I let the CD and the interconnects break in for a while.

Well I got my Analysis Plus cables two days ago and they sound good out of the box and way better than what I had. They say about 100 hour to breakin, but I dont care how long, it can only get better. It will sound better as you continue to play it. Also it may depend on the other gear in the chain. The X-Ray has to be warmer than the Tosh....just give it time. At first the X-Ray and teh Rotel CDP where neck and neck, but after a while the X-Ray took off. I did leave the X-Ray on repeat all night and just let it play.

[frenchmon]

I am wondering if the Yammie is the weak link. That X-Ray and power supply is about or very close to a $3000 outfit before it went out of production this year. And the cable is also high end gear. You just may need a dedicated two channel preamp or integrated amp to go with the high end CDP.

[frenchmon]

Well, I spent some time comparing the xray and siltechs with my Toshiba and I'm having a tough time telling the difference. Sometimes it seems like the xray is considerably better with respect to detail, dynamics, clarity, soundstage, the sound seems more enveloping and then I switch again to find that the differences are not significant and at times are not even audible. I switched the siltechs and put them between the yammy and the emo and put the BJC from the xray to the yammy and I still get the same result. One of my problems is that it takes a while to switch between the xray and the toshiba, as I have to get up, take the disc from one and put in the other and then sit back down and switch modes on the yammy; however, it isn't that much of a wait and I should be noticing a significant change but I've tried to focus on certain details within a track over about a minute or so and I switch back and forth a few times to ensure I'm doing a detailed analysis. I'll have to get my best friend to have a listen as it could be my ears. We both played the same instruments growing up and had the same music teachers and we both had a great ear for music growing up, but I guess you never know if my hearing has deteriorated to the point where it's affecting my analysis.


You should be hearing better quality of music with the Xray and the siltechs. When I took out the monopriced cables I heard a better sound stage with the Analysis Plus than with the BJC. But I never heard the Xray and the BJC together, I did hear the BJC and monoprice and the Adcom and ERC-1. The point is you should hear a difference. But we heard the difference on dedicated separates and not a reciever amp combo. I believe there is a difference as my hometheater is a 5.1 receiver (Marantz) and amp combo and it can't touch my dedicated separates.

Listened for a warmer sound with the Xray, and listen for greater speration in the instruments, look for a more transparent and detailed sound. Do you here a bigger or smaller sound stage, and does it have depth or is it shallow... If you find these things in the positive, you know you are on your way to better sound. Also the positioning of your gear and speakers can make a big difference. How do you have you speakers, and is the CDP isolated . I have my CDP up in the air and it makes a big difference.


frenchmon

[Mr Peabody]

It could be that the X-ray does have some break in. It seems Frenchmon experienced it. I was just commenting on the Siltech. I didn't used to think hardware needed break in but the ERC-1 seemed to need a bit of time. Emo says they don't but that wasn't my experience. I didn't notice a break in period with prior players. So maybe the X-ray will improve. There should be a noticeable improvement with the Siltech though.

I'm beginning to wonder also if the Yamaha is not letting all the quality get through. I was also wondering where you bought the Siltech because their website warned of counterfit cables being sold. I would think yours shouldn't be suspect if bought from a dealer but you might want to check with Siltech if you bought them off Ebay or something.

The Emotiva preamp is on sale for $349.00. I hate for you to keep throwing money around without a result but if no one else has another preamp for you to experiment with the USP-1 could be an inexpensive way to bypass the Yamaha to see what happens and if you still don't hear anything you can always return the USP-1. It would also be a good way to see how the pre & power sounds together.

[Mr Peabody]

It could be that the X-ray does have some break in. It seems Frenchmon experienced it. I was just commenting on the Siltech. I didn't used to think hardware needed break in but the ERC-1 seemed to need a bit of time. Emo says they don't but that wasn't my experience. I didn't notice a break in period with prior players. So maybe the X-ray will improve. There should be a noticeable improvement with the Siltech though.

I'm beginning to wonder also if the Yamaha is not letting all the quality get through. I was also wondering where you bought the Siltech because their website warned of counterfit cables being sold. I would think yours shouldn't be suspect if bought from a dealer but you might want to check with Siltech if you bought them off Ebay or something.

The Emotiva preamp is on sale for $349.00. I hate for you to keep throwing money around without a result but if no one else has another preamp for you to experiment with the USP-1 could be an inexpensive way to bypass the Yamaha to see what happens and if you still don't hear anything you can always return the USP-1. It would also be a good way to see how the pre & power sounds together.

[devuonoste]

Hi frenchmon & Mr. P. I just want to let you know that I bought the siltechs from Spearit Sound that Mr. P suggested so I hope they are authentic. Frenchmon, how long did you run your xray for before you began to notice an improvement? I have run mine for about 30 hours or so. I was also thinking that the Yammy might be preventing any improvements in sound quality from getting through and I think it may be my bottleneck. I can't think of any other reason, because I should at least notice something between the Toshiba vs xray and siltechs. Also, I'm having a hard time comparing because sometimes I think Oh Yea! there's a significant difference and then I switch and I find there is no difference. The music sounds virtually identical. The only thing that would help me determine for sure, is if I could A/B by simply having 2 of the same CDs and just pressing between DVD and CD-R on the yammy, that way the comparison would be extremely quick and it would be easier to compare the sound. I have tried difference CD's and different types of music and still get the same result. I looked on the Emo website and I almost decided to buy, but my wife would kill me if I bought anything else this year. I may just wait and get a better pre-amp like your CJ early next year. Is there any way that the CD could not be performing well or is there any way to check to make sure the interconnects are OK. The CD seems to work fine. The only weird thing is Audioadvisor/MF sent 2 remotes that are identical. The work OK but sometimes they don't seem very responsive but overall they work OK.

[Mr Peabody]

The Siltech are A-OK then. Can you copy a CD on your computer or have some one do a couple? then you can compare the two quicker and even switch the discs from player to player to make sure what you hear isn't differences in the CD and copy. Or maybe your friend has some of the same CD's. If you have headphones you can try listening through them for comparison, it may help you hear some nuances.

[frenchmon]

Hi frenchmon & Mr. P. I just want to let you know that I bought the siltechs from Spearit Sound that Mr. P suggested so I hope they are authentic. Frenchmon, how long did you run your xray for before you began to notice an improvement? I have run mine for about 30 hours or so. I was also thinking that the Yammy might be preventing any improvements in sound quality from getting through and I think it may be my bottleneck. I can't think of any other reason, because I should at least notice something between the Toshiba vs xray and siltechs. Also, I'm having a hard time comparing because sometimes I think Oh Yea! there's a significant difference and then I switch and I find there is no difference. The music sounds virtually identical. The only thing that would help me determine for sure, is if I could A/B by simply having 2 of the same CDs and just pressing between DVD and CD-R on the yammy, that way the comparison would be extremely quick and it would be easier to compare the sound. I have tried difference CD's and different types of music and still get the same result. I looked on the Emo website and I almost decided to buy, but my wife would kill me if I bought anything else this year. I may just wait and get a better pre-amp like your CJ early next year. Is there any way that the CD could not be performing well or is there any way to check to make sure the interconnects are OK. The CD seems to work fine. The only weird thing is Audioadvisor/MF sent 2 remotes that are identical. The work OK but sometimes they don't seem very responsive but overall they work OK.

After about 30 hours the Xray started to breakin for me. I had two cds that where the same and I demoed both of them together with the Rotel and Xray and they sounded the same. And then the Xray started sounding better than the Rotel. Smoother, more air around the instruments and the sound stage got better. And when I added the A+ cables there was even a better improvement. The highs where more revealing. The monopriced cables had my speakers sounding bright, and bloated in the bottom. The A+ has a more even or balanced presentation without the brightness but more clear and crisp highs with a touch of warmth. So I believe you should start experiencing some of the same. If not, it has to be the yammie. I have a friend who has a very good Yammie, the RX-V3800 and its a very good Home theater receiver, but I doubt if its a very good pre/pro for audiophile two channel sound. My SACD was used in my home-theater before I got my two channel system. When I wanted to listen to it in two channel all I had to do was put it in direct mode and it was two channel. I thought the SACD sounded good, but not nearly as good in my two channel system. So that may be your problem. The Xray is a very good and outstanding player. The Yammie may be choking the Xray. Musical Fidelity put two remotes in with every Xray. THe romote takes a little getting use to. You have to point it directly at the Xray in order for it to perform. You will get use to it. The best way for me to evaluate a player is to listen to a acoustic Jazz CD with a sax or trumpet, a piano, upright bass, and drums. That way I can tell right off the bat what quality of sound I get. Less instruments. If the music sounds congested with out air, something is not right.

[frenchmon]

One other thing...you might want to let the CDP and the new cables run all night to break them in.

[devuonoste]

Thanks for your input Mr. P. and frenchmon. I think by now the xray should be at least starting to break in, as I have been letting it run all night 2 or 3 times since I've had it and I run it all the time when I'm home. I think I will try to do some comparisons when I get dual copies of one or more CD's. I agree with using acoustic jazz cd and I also want to have music that incorporates singing, as I like to see how the system deals with vocals. The CD's I have been using are Chris Botti, 'Italia', (mostly Trumpet, guitar, drums and every second song with vocals from Adrea Bocelli, Dean Martin, etc); Burmester Vorfuhrungs CD3, Eric Clapton 'Unplugged', and Dire Straits 'Sultans of Swing', etc. With the last two I only play the songs which are slower paced and have portions of the song where guitar, bass and drums are emphasized. Before I got the xray I used to listen to a lot of Jazz music from my tv channels and they would go through my system through the Toshiba, HD box and the yammy/Emo; however, I can't make any comparisons through the xray. I need to get some Jazz CD's in the near future. I have been making a list of some CD's that I may purchase in the future. Thanks again for your input. I hope to have my issue resolved ASAP but I may need to wait for a good pre-amp.

[Mr Peabody]

Don't limit your listening to just slow or acoustic, sometimes the more complex will help flush out a difference. Listen for subtle background noises, I like to pay attention to the bass line, snare drum, cymbals, piano, to name a few.

Sometimes it is difficult, when I was comparing my Audio Note DAC to then a potential purchase of my T+A at first it was subtle but as I listened more the differences became to make themselves known.

As apparent as the difference was between the ERC and X-ray I'd think it would even be more so against a Tosh DVD player. Even using the Yamaha DAC. Go ahead and play the title track of Sultans and give it some power.

Does the sub play when in Direct mode? Which input is the X-ray plugged into?

[devuonoste]

I agree that the xray vs Toshiba should exhibit more of a difference than the Emo vs Xray and I hope that I will be able to figure out what's limiting the system's performance. With that being said, the system does sound really nice; however, I thought the xray would bring it to an even higher level. I hope it is just the yammy or some setup mistake I have made. I don't think I have made any errors though but you never know, I will keep searching.

I have tried different music and I have tried the title track of Sultans. I usually try to listen at different levels to see if there's a difference and I have compared at -30, -25, -20 and -15db on the yammy. -15db is getting pretty loud. I usually don't go beyond -5db, as it is extremely loud at that level, but I didn't go that loud during the comparisons.

I am not using a sub, as the LS6's go down to at least 25HZ in most rooms and my room sometimes gets overloaded even though I have the bass setting on medium. I actually may change the bass setting to medium/small to avoid this but I haven't got around to doing that. I know there are many things which I need to improve on, especially getting room treatments, etc. but the conditions should affect each player the same and even if it wasn't at least I could explain why one sounds different than the other, but they both sound virtually identical. I think I may wait to confirm this when I get dual CD's so I can A/B quickly.

The X-ray is plugged into the CD-R input in the yammy and into a power bar that has most of my components plugged into. It is a power bar I purchased from the audio/video store that I purchased the yammy from. I don't have any power conditioners,etc and I'm not sure if this would make a difference. Also, I tried to plug the xray into the CD input that is located next to the CD-R input in the audio component jack area of the amp, which I think is analog and still no difference. I even hooked it up via the coax to the digital portion of the amp and no difference. I put it back to the CD-R, as I know you said it would be best to hook it up via analog inputs. Hope I can figure this out in the near future. Thanks again for trying to help me.

[frenchmon]

devuonoste...how is your system now? Are you starting to hear a real difference? And what do you think of the Siltech cables?

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

frenchmon, I have been away for a couple days and haven't been able to listen to my system. I also need to purchase a CD or two to match one(s) in my collection so I can A/ B to better compare between the xray and the toshiba and then I can compare between some interconnects. I will post as soon as possible

[devuonoste]

frenchmon, I just have a question on how you isolated and elevated your CDP. You mention you built a platform for it but is it off on it's own or do you have it in a rack? I have my Emo, the Xray and the XXX in an open rack that has thick glass shelves and steel pillars. Do I need to put the xray/xxx on the top of the rack and have it elevated with a platform or small pillars or do I need to have it separate from all other equipment? You can see my rack at: http://www.efurno.ca/Common/NoBot/VTI-AGR-405-5-Shelf-Audio-Rack.htm. If you don't mind can you let me know how you would position the xray and the xxx. I ordered a couple of CD's that I really enjoy and I already have so I can make a quick A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba and hopefully they will arrive ASAP. Also, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Conrad-Johnson premier 18ls pre-amp (solid state I think), as there is one for sale at audiogon for $1490. I have read some reviews and they are all pretty positive. The only weird thing is that I was viewing the audiogon post and originally the person had it on for $999 and the next thing I know is that it changed to $1490. Oh well , I could always ask the individual. Anyways any input on this pre would be appreciated. I know I may not be buying until early next year but I'd like to deteremine which pre-amp and amp combo would work the best for my needs. As it stands now my first choice would be Conrad Johnson MF2500A and CJ PV14LS2 but I'm wondering how the 18ls would work. Also, any other suggestions on amps are welcomed as well. I have been looking for the CJ MF2500A but lately none have been coming up for sale.

[Mr Peabody]

www.spearitsound.com has also had a Premier 18 for sale, higher price but guaranteed no funny business, and if you email Jack he will help you on the differences between the CJ preamps. Wait and email during the week so Jack will answer, his helper Dick isn't really a lot of help. My guess is the PV14 will have a richer midrange. The 18ls may be a good choice though being solid state if wanted to integrate two systems. Also, the "Premier" is CJ's higher quality gear so the 18ls is certainly going to be a great preamp. Probably overall better than the 14ls.

From what you report I'd be skeptical of that seller.

[devuonoste]

thanks for the info Mr. P.

[frenchmon]

frenchmon, I just have a question on how you isolated and elevated your CDP. You mention you built a platform for it but is it off on it's own or do you have it in a rack? I have my Emo, the Xray and the XXX in an open rack that has thick glass shelves and steel pillars. Do I need to put the xray/xxx on the top of the rack and have it elevated with a platform or small pillars or do I need to have it separate from all other equipment? You can see my rack at: http://www.efurno.ca/Common/NoBot/VTI-AGR-405-5-Shelf-Audio-Rack.htm. If you don't mind can you let me know how you would position the xray and the xxx. I ordered a couple of CD's that I really enjoy and I already have so I can make a quick A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba and hopefully they will arrive ASAP. Also, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Conrad-Johnson premier 18ls pre-amp (solid state I think), as there is one for sale at audiogon for $1490. I have read some reviews and they are all pretty positive. The only weird thing is that I was viewing the audiogon post and originally the person had it on for $999 and the next thing I know is that it changed to $1490. Oh well , I could always ask the individual. Anyways any input on this pre would be appreciated. I know I may not be buying until early next year but I'd like to deteremine which pre-amp and amp combo would work the best for my needs. As it stands now my first choice would be Conrad Johnson MF2500A and CJ PV14LS2 but I'm wondering how the 18ls would work. Also, any other suggestions on amps are welcomed as well. I have been looking for the CJ MF2500A but lately none have been coming up for sale.

devuonoste, I have my system sitting on an audio bench 57 inches long and 24 inches wide. I like it alot. And I have my Xray sitting on top of my old Rotel which is sitting on teh platform of the bench. The Rotel CDP I don't use anymore.

As you can see, I prefer to have my Xray sitting side by side. I have the player sitting on 5 stacks of ceramic blocks. Each block has 3 smaller square block taped together with clear packing tape. I put three of the blocks in the middle, spaced out going from front to back and one block each on the outside of the transport and the outside of the power-supply. The power-supply and the transport each share a side of the blocks in the middle. This has lifted the Xray up about 1and1/2 inches up, which gave my system a very noticeable improvement in overall sound. I've also did the same with my SACD player as well. I first did it with my Rotel CDP and have done it to all my CDP's and its worked for me every time. The ceramic I bought from homedepot for less than $5 bucks on clearance. Its really nothing more that the small square ceramic tile you see used as back splash in kitchens. All I did was buy a few and taped them together and it worked fine for me. If you don't want to fool with it, I've heard this work really well http://www.vibrapod.com/ and you can get them really cheap. I might buy some my self.

If I had your rack, I would put them side by side like I have mine, and I would put them on the top shelf, unless you have a TT. then I would go second shelf. Make sure your rack has isolated feet as well. Just click on the small picture to get a close up.

frenchmon


http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5783/pict0704l.th.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/pict0704l.jpg/)
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6005/pict0702.th.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/pict0702.jpg/)

[devuonoste]

frenchmon,

Sorry for being so ill informed but I don't know what a TT is. Also, my rack feet screw into the side tubes, acturally all of the side tubes and feet screw in together, and their lengths can be determined by the shelves, as they are where each tube screws in. It is very heavy and solid. Do you think it's OK? The unit looks exactly like the picture in the url I included in my post above. What is the benefit of having the CDP and XXX elevated? I know it's better sound but what specifically has improved with respect to sound quality and do you know how elevating the unit improves the sound? Thanks for the photo you sent and thanks for your help.

[frenchmon]

frenchmon,

Sorry for being so ill informed but I don't know what a TT is. Also, my rack feet screw into the side tubes, acturally all of the side tubes and feet screw in together, and their lengths can be determined by the shelves, as they are where each tube screws in. It is very heavy and solid. Do you think it's OK? The unit looks exactly like the picture in the url I included in my post above. What is the benefit of having the CDP and XXX elevated? I know it's better sound but what specifically has improved with respect to sound quality and do you know how elevating the unit improves the sound? Thanks for the photo you sent and thanks for your help.

TT=turntable. No your rack looks very nice. I was just hinting at placing something under the feet of your rack for added protection for vibrations. But you may not need it especially if you are on carpet. With me adding the blocks I got a wider sound stage, a deeper bottom end, greater highs and mids. I really notice better seperation. You will have to try it and see if you get better sound. Some people say its all sycophile stuff but it really worked for me and others. If you want to read a thead I started and a very good technical debate about why and why not it works read here. I'm rantzmar over there.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=34393

frenchmon

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

I forgot to mention as you read the debate, I think one guy said he was going to try it, and it did work for him.

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Look what this guy did to elevate his CDP....he paid good money for his isolation.


http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4937/32551921790602936984652.th.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/32551921790602936984652.jpg/)



frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Thanks frenchmon. I feel kind of silly for missing turntable. I guess it's been a long time since I've considered or thought of a turntable. Very interesting thread you posted here, great read. Any thoughts on what would be better, the vibrapod or Herbies audio component feet (these were mentioned in your thread)? I could make something myself but I'm wondering if spending a little more to get ones that are purposely built would improve sound even more. At some point I'd like to get a TT but it won't be for a little while. Does anyone have any suggestions on a TT that would be relatively affordable and be a good bang for my buck? I know I should start another thread about this topic but I'm wondering if anyone here has some thoughts. I know there's some audiophiles that swear by TT sound quality and others don't like them as much due to their noisy background. Well thanks again for your help.

[frenchmon]

I'm not sure which would be better. I've only used the ceramic blocks. I've thought about buying some of the vibrapods because they look much better than my block. And the price is right as well 4@$25.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Well, I finally picked up my CD's and did an A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba. I am a bit dissapointed, as the only difference seems to be an ever so slight increase in detail and a slight improvement in bass extension and impact. These improvements are not always audible and I wonder if at some points I notice a difference because I am biased. I'll have to do a lot more A/B comparisons with other CD's and spend some quite time and do some serious listening but I was hoping for a more significant change, as I think the Xray should outclass the toshiba by quite a bit. I'll have to get someone to take control of the remote and do the switching and that way it will be like a blindfold comparison and should remove any bias. Also, I'll have to get others to take a listen as well because I can't rule out any defficiencies in my hearing, although I don't think it's the case as I'm usually the one that can tell between the slightest differences in sound quality but you never know. Note that this is just my initial impression, as I have only compared the two 3 or 4 songs and for about half an hour. There should be no break in issues anymore and I'm wondering if it is the Yammy. I doubt it's my speakers as they are very highly rated by many that have had the chance of hearing them and they are supposed to have great detail and sensitivity to components upstream. I'd love to try a pre amp but I'm not sure I want to spend the money right now, I know my wife doesn't, :( . Mr. P. I know you were thinking of selling your CJ preamp and I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind sending me an email with a price you were hoping to get for the preamp. I can't guarantee, I will purchase now, but it will give me an idea on how much I'll have to spend in the near future. My email address is: devuonoste@hotmail.com. Thanks.

[Feanor]

Well, I finally picked up my CD's and did an A/B comparison between the xray and the toshiba. I am a bit dissapointed, as the only difference seems to be an ever so slight increase in detail and a slight improvement in bass extension and impact. ...
Well there you have it. If you are expecting CDP/CDP differences comparable to speaker/speaker or even amp/amp differences, you are likely to be disappointed.

[Mr Peabody]

Email sent. I can only guess the Yamaha is the problem. When Frenchmon brought his X-ray over the difference between it and the ERC-1 was apparent.

[devuonoste]

Feanor, I didn't expect the kind of difference as I would with a speaker/speaker comparison or amp/amp comparisons; however, I do expect some difference and as I state in my last post, I am not even sure there is ANY difference between the two. The xray should provide me with some improvement, as we're talking about an almost $3000 dedicated CDP (MSRP) vs a $200 upconverting DVD. My point above was that during those times I hear a slight difference it may be due to a bias to the xray. If I can confirm a difference, even if slight, is occurring all or most of the time when I can do a blindfold type of analysis as I state above, then I'll be happy, as I know I should probably get a significant improvement when I get a good preamp.

[frenchmon]

Feanor, I didn't expect the kind of difference as I would with a speaker/speaker comparison or amp/amp comparisons; however, I do expect some difference and as I state in my last post, I am not even sure there is ANY difference between the two. The xray should provide me with some improvement, as we're talking about an almost $3000 dedicated CDP (MSRP) vs a $200 upconverting DVD. My point above was that during those times I hear a slight difference it may be due to a bias to the xray. If I can confirm a difference, even if slight, is occurring all or most of the time when I can do a blindfold type of analysis as I state above, then I'll be happy, as I know I should probably get a significant improvement when I get a good preamp.


What tone does the Xray have in comparison to the tosh? Are they warm or neutral or bright? And how do you have them connected?

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

devuonoste....Im sure that the Xray out classs the Yammi and the Tosh by a long shot, but because of the Yammi, the Xray can't shine. Leroy, the other person here on the forum also decided to buy the Xray and did notice a noticable improvement in sound over his Nad CDP. But he is also using seperates as well. He has a Belles Soloist 5 amp with the Belles Soloist 3 Pre-amp. You may have to move up to a better source than the Yammi which is mainly a home theater tool rather than a dedicated tool for two channel music.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

frenchmon,

The tone and all other sound characteristics seem identical to me most of the time. The both are fairly neutral; however, to me it seems like I get the slightest bit of brightness from some vocals on some recordings and I attribute most of that to the recordings and lack of room treatments for the most part. Both sound fairly natural and when I sit down to relax and play music at the end of the day with the lights down it seems like the music is pretty lifelike with many CD's but at times I think the imaging/soundstage is off and I'm missing some detail, smoothness and richness, I know my speakers are capable of. I still need to change a number of things like get room treatments, a good pre-amp and elevate the xray, etc. and I think this will hopefully take the sound quality of my system to another level.

The toshiba is connected via coax cable to the Yammy digital portion of the amp. I also have connections with my Shaw High Def. Box. It's a bit of a complex set up. If there was an issue with it's sound quality or video quality, I could understand that I'd have to do some playing around, as the setup is complex.

The xray is hooked up in a basic way. I used to have the siltechs from the CD to the Yammy analogue section CD and the Blue Jeans from the Emo to the Yammy pre-outs. Now I have those switched up (Siltech between the Emo/Yammy and BJC between Xray/Yammy) and still no change, it seems. I'll have to have a listening session with some buddies and have someone make the switch between the two CDP's so there will be no bias from me. I still have not elevated the xray or moved it up to the top of the rack. I am trying to decide between the Vibrapods and Herbies audio feet.

[Mr Peabody]

If you haven't heard any improvement with the Siltech or X-ray you should hold off on any more tweaks until you can be able to purchase or experiment with a preamp to see if the Yamaha is the problem.

Out of curiosity have you tried listening to headphones and comparing the two CD players?

[devuonoste]

I haven't tried that, as I don't have a set of headphones. Any ideas on a decent affordable set of headphones that I could purchase. They would come in handy late at night if I want to hear some music and I don't want to bother anyone else.

[Mr Peabody]

LOL, I'm sorry, it just seems like every time we think of something for you to try it ends up costing you more money.

I didn't get a model number but one day strolling through Wal-Mart I saw a cool pair of Sony for $49.95. They were hooked up to a display so I gave them a listen and was impressed. They were called "super bass" or something like that. The ear cups were really nice, they were like a soft leather feel and real puffy. I couldn't believe the bass response in a pair that price. Keep in mind I only heard them on the display which was coming from who knows what. Grado SR60i have their fans and I think they are in the $70.00 range. I personally have Sennheiser. I've got portables and higher end, HD-600, but not sure what to suggest for entry. You might see how much the 280's are.

[devuonoste]

No problem Mr. P.. No need to be sorry, it's not your fault I don't have certain pieces of audio gear. We all have to start somewhere and I am just getting back into the audio scene and I think I am hooked now, as I'd like to try so many speakers, amps, etc. I don't regret buying the CDP and Siltechs as all the research on them indicates they are great products. I just hope that I can figure out what the issue is. I think the headphone idea is a good one and it may answer some questions. I used to have a cheap pair of in your ear phones that I got with my old Techniques package system from the late 80's but I'm not sure where they are and they probably are not that good. I looked up the Grado SR60i and SR80i's and they look promising, but I'll do some more looking around before I purchase. Thanks for all your help.

[Feanor]

Feanor, I didn't expect the kind of difference as I would with a speaker/speaker comparison or amp/amp comparisons; however, I do expect some difference and as I state in my last post, I am not even sure there is ANY difference between the two. The xray should provide me with some improvement, as we're talking about an almost $3000 dedicated CDP (MSRP) vs a $200 upconverting DVD. My point above was that during those times I hear a slight difference it may be due to a bias to the xray. If I can confirm a difference, even if slight, is occurring all or most of the time when I can do a blindfold type of analysis as I state above, then I'll be happy, as I know I should probably get a significant improvement when I get a good preamp.
The slight difference might be due to bias? No kidding? :20: I don't know about your case, Devuosite or the specific equipment in question. But I can tell you that in general a lot of perceived differences are due to the bias of the listener.

Differences among digital sources are definitely small, (unless there are gross problems or incompatibilities). In my many years of hifi experience, the following is the order, most to least, in terms of audible difference for digital systems:

Speakers
Amplfier
Preamplfier
Tubes (assuming tube equipment)
Digital source
Opamps
Speaker cable (unless the speakers are a difficult load)
Interconnects
Power filters (unless the local environment is quite bad)
Vibration control (apart from bad local conditions)

[devuonoste]

Feanor, I agree with what you are saying, especially considering my scenario. My problem is that I'm almost certain there are no differences between my relatively expensive CDP and my cheap upconverting dvd and that I should be hearing some difference, even if small. I will have to do some more listening and have someone switch between sources to eliminate bias and get others to listen to ensure I've covered all of my bases. I have a nephew who according to my brother in law has exceptional hearing which was proven through an experiment they did for his schooling. My brother in law said his son was able to hear differences between the sound quality of some sources where he could not and I would classify my brother in law as a serious audio enthusiast. I'll have to get my nephew over to try to rule out any inadequacies in my hearing.

[frenchmon]

devuonoste, I just dont know what to tell you other than make sure you are running both players using a RCA connection and that the Yammi is the problem. A expensive CDP with an external power supply should be able to out class a mass market Tosh anytime of the day. Which Toshiba do you have? Mine has out classed the Rotel by a long shot and from what I know, Leroys NAD was not as good as the Xray. he Xray should give you a smooth warm sound...I know mine does.

frenchmon

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

devuonoste had you seen this thread?

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=31784

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

frenchmon, I totally agree with you and thanks for the thread. I am seriously hoping it's the Yammy and that way my issues should be resolved when I purchase my 2ch system. I still haven't decided for sure what to purchase, as there are so many choices and the more I look the more choices I find, which is obvious, but it makes it hard to make a decision. Right now I am trying to decide between CJ MF2500A and a CJ pre (14l or other comparable or better CJ at close to the same price, used) OR Odyssey audio Mono Extreme amps with possibly the Candella pre-amp or the CJ14l if they can be connected together. I'll have to check to see about compatibility and do some more research though. I have heard nothing but great things about the CJ equipment and the Odyssey equipment and I'll keep researching and hopefully I'll be able to purchase my 2ch system early next year. I hope I can pinpoint my problem though. I have ordered a set of Grado SR80i earphones and I hope this can at least help with my analysis. I thank you and Mr. P for all of the help you have been giving me, it's much appreciated.

[frenchmon]

frenchmon, I totally agree with you and thanks for the thread. I am seriously hoping it's the Yammy and that way my issues should be resolved when I purchase my 2ch system. I still haven't decided for sure what to purchase, as there are so many choices and the more I look the more choices I find, which is obvious, but it makes it hard to make a decision. Right now I am trying to decide between CJ MF2500A and a CJ pre (14l or other comparable or better CJ at close to the same price, used) OR Odyssey audio Mono Extreme amps with possibly the Candella pre-amp or the CJ14l if they can be connected together. I'll have to check to see about compatibility and do some more research though. I have heard nothing but great things about the CJ equipment and the Odyssey equipment and I'll keep researching and hopefully I'll be able to purchase my 2ch system early next year. I hope I can pinpoint my problem though. I have ordered a set of Grado SR80i earphones and I hope this can at least help with my analysis. I thank you and Mr. P for all of the help you have been giving me, it's much appreciated.


Just to let you know, I have Rotel gear. I too will need an uprade. The Xray was wonderful and outstanding with Mr. Peabody's CJ gear. And while I love the Rotel, I feel it may be a week link in letting the Xray shine in all its glory. With the Rotel amp and preamp which is great equipment, I can truly hear the difference between my Rotel CDP and the Xray. But the CJ took it to a different level. But I will not be making a purchase soon. I can wait a bit, but I do feel the Rotel is a week link in my system. While I have a warm system, and the Rotel is on the warm side of neutral, (though I had heard Rotel was bright, not so in my system) I believe the Xray will perform its best with tube gear as was proven at Mr.Peabodys.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

CJ gear is definitely my first choice right now. I just have heard so many great things about Odyssey amps that I can't rule that option out right now. I think there are so many options out there and my list was beginning to get massive so I started to try to narrow it down and I have narrowed it down to CJ gear and Odyssey gear. I know there's a lot of other options that may be just as good or even better; however, for the price (bang for your buck), sound quality characteristics I am looking for and customer satisfaction, these two brands seem to be the best. I will still keep on doing research though.

[devuonoste]

Mr. P. and frenchmon, I just received my Grado SR80i headphones and I did a quick comparison between the xray and toshiba and there's no difference between the sound quality of the two. I will do some more listening but I think that probably indicates that the Yammy is the bottleneck unless there's something I'm missing.

[frenchmon]

devuonoste...I just saw this posting. I asked MrPeabody about you a while back. Have not seen you around. I too think the Yammie is the problem. If you get the Odyssey amps let me know. How have you been?

frechmon

[devuonoste]

Hi frenchmon,

I have been Ok. I have been fairly busy and haven't had a chance to do any additional critical listening and I have not really looked into purchasing any audio gear since my headphone purchase, as I think my next purchase will be a 2ch amp(s) setup. I will have to wait until next year to purchase though. I think I have narrowed the problem down to the yammy, as I hear no difference between the xray and the toshiba when I listen with the headphones.

I did have a talk with one of the reps at av123, where I got my LS6 speakers, and I told them my first choice is the Conrad Johnson MF2500A and CJ preamp, most likely Mr. P's, and my second choice is the Odyssey mono extremes with the candella pre or equivalent pre and my third choice is going with a Prima Luna amp or amps. He told me that his boss, Mark Schifter, who is very respected in the audiophile community, said he would recommend the Prima Luna route. He also mentioned that they are going to have an integrated tube amp for sale in 2010, that will be similar to the Onix model H6550 tube amp which was well reviewed. I know that they would like to sell me the amp to get some more business from me but they are very honest and they never push me and they did recommend going with the Prima Luna. Not sure which route to take now. I think I will have to do some more research and possibly just take the plunge with one of my first choices, as I don't think there are any bad choices among the ones I mentioned. Also, I am going to get more specific info from them to see why they recommend the Prima Luna and their upcomming integrated. I think they'd be very informative, as they always test their equipment and bring in other products to try to come up with the best possible setup and they know the capabilities and shortcommings of their own speakers better than anyone else. Oh well, I should get going. Hope you and Mr. P are doing well. Take care and I wish you the best and have a great Holiday Season.

devuonoste

[Mr Peabody]

If the specs I found for the LS6 is current it shows 91dB sensitivity. Although av123 seems to think that's a high efficiency it really isn't. Also, a speaker with an array of 8 drivers will still need some juice. So I'd recommend whatever amp you go with have some power. At least 100 quality watts per channel, give or take.

[frenchmon]

Hi frenchmon,

I have been Ok. I have been fairly busy and haven't had a chance to do any additional critical listening and I have not really looked into purchasing any audio gear since my headphone purchase, as I think my next purchase will be a 2ch amp(s) setup. I will have to wait until next year to purchase though. I think I have narrowed the problem down to the yammy, as I hear no difference between the xray and the toshiba when I listen with the headphones.

I did have a talk with one of the reps at av123, where I got my LS6 speakers, and I told them my first choice is the Conrad Johnson MF2500A and CJ preamp, most likely Mr. P's, and my second choice is the Odyssey mono extremes with the candella pre or equivalent pre and my third choice is going with a Prima Luna amp or amps. He told me that his boss, Mark Schifter, who is very respected in the audiophile community, said he would recommend the Prima Luna route. He also mentioned that they are going to have an integrated tube amp for sale in 2010, that will be similar to the Onix model H6550 tube amp which was well reviewed. I know that they would like to sell me the amp to get some more business from me but they are very honest and they never push me and they did recommend going with the Prima Luna. Not sure which route to take now. I think I will have to do some more research and possibly just take the plunge with one of my first choices, as I don't think there are any bad choices among the ones I mentioned. Also, I am going to get more specific info from them to see why they recommend the Prima Luna and their upcomming integrated. I think they'd be very informative, as they always test their equipment and bring in other products to try to come up with the best possible setup and they know the capabilities and shortcommings of their own speakers better than anyone else. Oh well, I should get going. Hope you and Mr. P are doing well. Take care and I wish you the best and have a great Holiday Season.

devuonoste

Nice to hear from you devuonoste. Yeah I am sure its the Yammie. The Xray is an outstanding player. Its true character is on the warm and detailed side. I think if you paired it with tubes you would be very happy. Earlier today I was looking at the Candella on audiogon, there are two of them for $900. Thats a fair price seeing they retail for $1500. There also was a 2500A. I read good things about Prima Luna, and also there is a company that's very close to Prima Luna...its sibling company called Mystere audio.http://www.mystere-eu.com/about_us/index.php....you may want to check them out. Mark Shifter knows his stuff, and I'm glad to hear they are coming out with an integrated tube amp. That's going to be a hot seller if its priced right. From your list you can't go wrong with any of them. As I have been saying all along,once you make your choice, just tweak it, give it the best cable you can get, mate it with good components, a little room treatments if possible, just make sure you get the best sound out of it as possible and don't stop till you are done, and sit back and enjoy your rig.

frenchmon

[devuonoste]

Thanks for your input Mr. P. and frenchmon. I agree with the fact that the LS6's will perform best with an amp or amps with good power, and I also agree with you frenchmon, about making a choice and then tweaking to the point where I can enjoy my system all of the time. I'm almost there, as I think my system sounds nice, but I'd like to make some improvements and I think upgrading my amplification and incorporating room treatments will get me there. I will have to wait until later next year though but that's all right because I do really enjoy my system most of the time. I really can't wait to purchase a good 2ch system, as I find I listen to music about 80-90% of the time and use my system for HT a lot less than I thought I would.

[devuonoste]

Hi everyone,

It's been a while since I've posted on this thread, as I have not really purchased anything for a while. I have made a decision on my 2ch setup and I took the advice of Mark Schifter, as he has heard the LS6's with a number of amps and he knows the LS's best. He suggested I go with a prototype integrated tube amp he set me up with or a Prima Luna. I decided to go with the prototype, as the price was very good and the people I have talked to that are involved with this amps say it would compete with amps in the $6000-8000 range. The designer/builder has based this creation on some ideas from audio reseach and audio note and incorporated some additional improvements. I assume that some cost cutting methods had to be considered as some of the audio research and audio note amps are very expensive. The amp has a tube complement of: (4) 6550/KT88 ; (2) 12Au7's and (2) 12Ax7s. It is supposed to be around 50 to 55wpc. I know some suggestions hinged around the purchase of separates as well as an amp with around 100wpc or more and I think that having a 2ch scenario built around those parameters would be great but right now I can't afford to spend that kind of money and that is why I've gone with this integrated. Also, for the price I got it for I couldn't get near that price with good quality separates. The final deciding factor is that Mark said he is in love with this amp, so I have to give it a try. In the future if I'm not satisfied, I'm sure I won't lose a ton of money with it. I will probably be getting it near the end of Feb. or in March and I can't wait to get it hooked up. I have put it aside so I have commited to buy, and I have already purchased a number of NOS tubes for it. I can't believe how addictive this hobby is and I never thought I'd be spending a bunch of time looking at various tubes, etc. Hope all is well with everyone and hope everyone had a great holiday season.

P.S. I wish I could go for my first choice and get Conrad Johnson separates but I'll have to wait a while before I can do that, as I've spent enough money on audio gear in the last few months. Oh well, not sure the spending will ever stop completely, especially now with tubes, but I'll definitely have to tone it down a bit. Well, maybe not, as I am thinking of trying a turn table, my wife if gonna kill me!

[Mr Peabody]

Hope it's all you expect, enjoy. Don't forget to come and let us know how it sounds.

How do you bias this amp?

[devuonoste]

Hi Mr. P.,

I was told it has auto bias.

I will certainly give everyone my impressions on this amp and I hope it will cure some of the brightness I get with my system and I hope it will allow my CDP to shine. I bought my son a set of x-ls bookshelf speakers from av123 and I also purchased a NAD C315BEE for him, as I was told this amp is relatively warm sounding and the combo would be good for his bedroom. I had him set up with an old Technics stereo my parents bought me in the 80s and he loved the power, as the speakers have 12 inch woofers and the amp is 100wpc, but I was afraid he'd destroy his hearing because they were extremely bright sounding so that is the reason for the system I bought for him that I mention above. Well my long winded point is that I hooked up the NAD to my LS6 speakers and I still get that touch of brightness. I wasn't able to do an A/B but it is still there, albeit I think there is a slight improvement over the yammy/emo combo, in terms of smoothness. Power output is reduced as well over the Emotiva, but that's expected, although I was surprised at how good the 40wpc NAD did in terms of power.

I hope the tube amp will cure some of that brightness. I guess it depends on the types of tubes I use and I can't wait to start trying different tubes. I have purchased 4 types of 12au7's and 3 types of 12ax7s and one replacement set of KT88's. I have managed to purchase these at very good prices, hence the purchases. I also would like to try to do some mods to the speakers like felt around the planar tweeters to reduce some of the brightness and maybe a few other relatively inexpensive mods. I can't believe how addicting this hobby can be.

[woofersus]

Hey, did you ever get that amp from Mark Schifter?

[devuonoste]

Hi woofersus,

I did get the amp from Mark but I had some humming issues with it and they were nice enough to refund my money. The amp was just a prototype and their new tube amp has been improved and the one I had suffered some shipping damage internally because the amps are hand wired point to point and they are a bit more sensitive to rough handling. I was only able to listen to it for a few minutes but what I heard was very promising. I really enjoy the sound of a tube amp with the LS6's, it eliminated the slight bit of brightness I was getting and it made the music more natural and rich sounding. The soundstage and imaging and pretty much all aspects of sound quality were improved.

I am now in the process of purchasing tube gear from Space Tech Lab in Vancouver, BC, Canada. I have some family that lives there so if I ever have to get warranty or repair work done I don't have to worry about shipping issues and/or dealing with having to fill out paper work to transport across the border. The owner of STL is named Albert and he hand builds his gear from scratch and the sound quality and workmanship is amazing. Also, you usually end up with a one of a kind item because he has so many options for finishes, performance options, etc. He tailors his gear to your current gear and music preferences. He is the most knowledgeable audio person I know and he is amazing to deal with. He spent over 2 hours with me at his store, switching between different amp combos and I have communicated with him numerous times via phone and email. He is always willing to answer any questions you throw at him. I can't wait to finalize my 2 channel system with items he is creating.

[woofersus]

Cool. I'm glad it worked out for you. I was curious if the prototype was one of the Arte Forma amps they talked about selling a couple months back because it doesn't appear that they are moving forward with that relationship now. (Arte Forma was at AKfest this past weekend and one of the amps that had been pictured on the AV123 forums was present)

[devuonoste]

Yes the prototype was an Arte Forma amp. Did someone from Arte Forma say that the relationship is not moving forward or are you just assuming so just because they brought an amp to an audio show?

Not sure why that would be because they have the amp on their website and maybe Arte Forma reps are trying to get some PR by bringing the amp to different shows. Maybe not advertising their relationship at the show due to the Mark issues a while ago. Not sure though.

[vlastoc]

Hi devuonoste,

I read briefly through these pages, but if you didn't buy anything so far, you should consider this amp:

AUDIONET SAM V2.
http://www.audionetusa.com/samv2.html

At our local forum is very respected.

Vlasto.