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daviethek
09-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Back into vinyl, occasionally shocked and impressed and occasionally
feel like a nitwit for geting back in, expecially when buying used albums.

Just got my favorite. Its "Motherlode", Loggins and Messina. The record was purchased used so wtf. Anyway, there is a low amplitude rumble noticealble at higher volumes. Its like some kind of groove noise but I wonder. I also noticed it to some degree on some recently purchased classical albums from around 1974 which may have never been played before. I believe the cartridge is properly alligned, the weight is correct, the tonearm is essentially parallel to the record and the cartridge appears to be perpendicular to the record surface. Think this is set-up/cartridge noise or deep record noise from 35 year old products? Thanks and cheers, dk

Glen B
09-17-2009, 12:54 PM
I have 38 year old records and don't experience such noise. You probably are experiencing either some borderline acoustic feedback or record warp noise. Do you notice any excessive woofer cone movements ? If you do, an infrasonic filter should help.

02audionoob
09-17-2009, 03:36 PM
Do you have a wood floor structure? A subwoofer? Bassy speakers? What kind of turntable do you have? What does it sit on?

poppachubby
09-18-2009, 02:31 AM
Back into vinyl, occasionally shocked and impressed and occasionally
feel like a nitwit for geting back in, expecially when buying used albums.

Just got my favorite. Its "Motherlode", Loggins and Messina. The record was purchased used so wtf. Anyway, there is a low amplitude rumble noticealble at higher volumes. Its like some kind of groove noise but I wonder. I also noticed it to some degree on some recently purchased classical albums from around 1974 which may have never been played before. I believe the cartridge is properly alligned, the weight is correct, the tonearm is essentially parallel to the record and the cartridge appears to be perpendicular to the record surface. Think this is set-up/cartridge noise or deep record noise from 35 year old products? Thanks and cheers, dk

It has to be vibrations through the table, the symptoms sound like it. As soon as I hear higher volume, that's all my mind goes to. Consider buying some tougher feet or lining the platter/underside of the player. Did you try relocating it? Also, are you certain that your grooves are clean? Theres a great thread for homebrew cleaning solution...good luck, must be frustrating...

Ed_in_Tx
09-18-2009, 10:54 AM
What brand and type of turntable? Belt drive, idler drive, or direct drive?

daviethek
09-18-2009, 11:13 AM
My set-up is budget all the way. My committment to the world of the phonograph is not exctly like the Swiss Guard to the Pope. (?) I practically stole a Denon 500m and I have a AT 120 upgraded with a better needle. A friend suggested the better needle is fully into the groove and probably finding microscopic crapola in there so perhaps repetetive cleaning is partially an answer. The rest of the system may not be relevant but I have a Rogue Cronus integrated tube amp and Gallo Reference speakers. I use the phono card on the Cronus for input. The suggestions thus far point to better vibration control and better cleaning. I have wood floors and the unit is mounted to the wall using a bracket I manufactured myself. I tried to upload a picture of it but it was rejected for file size. I do not know what a infrasonic filter for bass is and could use some enlightnening on that subject. My Thanks to everyone.

Glen B
09-18-2009, 11:55 AM
I tried to upload a picture of it but it was rejected for file size.

Reduce the picture size to that permitted by the forum with some kind of photo editing software.


I do not know what a infrasonic filter for bass is and could use some enlightnening on that subject. My Thanks to everyone.

An infrasonic filter is more popularly and incorrectly known as a subsonic filter or sometimes a rumble filter. "Infrasonic" is the accurate term, since we're referring to frequencies below human hearing. A warped record can produce very low frequencies that cause excessive woofer cone flutter and resulting waste of amplifier power producing frequencies that are partly or completely inaudible. Some preamps/phono stages have "subsonic" filters built in that cut frequencies below a certain point, usually around 15Hz or so.

See here - scroll down to "Infrasonic Filter":
http://www.rane.com/par-i.html

Ed_in_Tx
09-18-2009, 12:14 PM
I looked up the Denon 500m which looks to me like it should be a high quality quiet turntable with a direct drive heavy cast platter. Denon's specs say S/N better than 70 dB, so I don't think that's the problem. That's better S/N than a record so the turntable should not be contributing anything audible to the sound. I will get out my Loggins & Messina record sometime soon and listen to it. I bought "Motherlode" when it first came out and it's in mint condition.

daviethek
09-18-2009, 02:09 PM
Well, I hope this upload works. This is the main offender.

02audionoob
09-18-2009, 03:09 PM
Can you feel vibration in the wall or the rack when you play at the desired volume? Have you tried it without the dustcover? What is the tracking force?

daviethek
09-18-2009, 07:06 PM
Some vibrations translate to the wall and rack. It seems difficult to correct. I am currently tracking at right around 1.5 grams, which is in the operating range of the cart. If I track heavier, the cart damn near drags on the record. Maybe I can get some sorbathane for the feet. I've already got the Gallo's up off the floor about 6 inches.

02audionoob
09-18-2009, 08:10 PM
I am currently tracking at right around 1.5 grams, which is in the operating range of the cart. If I track heavier, the cart damn near drags on the record.

I suppose I was thinking lighter.

poppachubby
09-19-2009, 02:37 AM
Any improvement yet Davie? BTW there are programs that will automatically refit your pic when you upload to the net. I use this...

http://www.webimageconverter.com/

emaidel
09-19-2009, 04:28 AM
Certain records have audible levels of rumble in them that probably occur due to sloppy manufacturing. I was recently listening to a Loggins and Messina album (don't think it was "Motherlode") and noticed an annoyingly high level of rumble. As soon as I put a different record on my turntable, the rumble disappeared, so it was clearly on the record in the first place. I also have a very old (circa 1968) Angel recording of "Ballet Music from the Opera," and the album, despite gorgeous sound - even today - has an inexcuseably high level of audible rumble that no turntable will ever eliminate.

If one album exhibits this unpleasant phenomenon, but others don't, then it's likely in the recording itself and not a fault of the turntable being used.

daviethek
09-19-2009, 06:46 AM
I suppose I was thinking lighter.

I'll give it a try. thanks.

emaidel
09-19-2009, 03:55 PM
I have a AT 120 upgraded with a better needle. A friend suggested the better needle is fully into the groove and probably finding microscopic crapola in there so perhaps repetetive cleaning is partially an answer.

When I read something like this I get suspicious. Just what is this "better" needle/stylus? Is it made by AT? If the answer to my second question is "no," then that may be your problem right there. Bogus, or knock-off styli were never much of a bargain, no matter which brand of cartridge they were made for. That which usually gets the short shrift in making these "phony" styli is the cantilever suspension, which, at least in the case of Pickering and Stanton styli, is a highly complex, and patented process, never duplicated by any of the knock-off manufacturers.


A 1 1/2 gram tracking force is anything but heavy, and if, by increasing it slightly, and having the cartridge body rub on the record surface, it seems to me that the suspension is either badly designed, or faulty.

02audionoob
09-19-2009, 03:58 PM
A 1 1/2 gram tracking force is anything but heavy, and if, by increasing it slightly, and having the cartridge body rub on the record surface, it seems to me that the suspension is either badly designed, or faulty.

Or maybe it's inaccurate...is where I was going with it.

daviethek
09-23-2009, 03:14 PM
Emadel's comment about aftermarket needles got me thinking. I re-installed the original needle for the AT120, re-measured pressure at about 1.25 to 1.5 ( average of two crude scales ), checked table level with a larger sliding T square level and discovered that it was whack. I rechecked the ground wire, cleaned connections, unscrewed the headshell and cleaned the contacts, did a quick check for everything else and after all was done, got a noticeably cleaner sound with less baseline noise. I am rethinking my position on vinyl. I have gone from lukle-warm to kind of liking it now. I like the fact that in an otherwise digital world, the adjustment paramteters of this device are mechanical in nature and need to be done properly by....me. Loggins and Messina are back on track and sounding pretty damn good. Spun a few records today that cannot possibly sound this good on CD. Thanks guys, dk

Luvin Da Blues
09-23-2009, 05:11 PM
Emadel's comment about aftermarket needles got me thinking. I re-installed the original needle for the AT120, re-measured pressure at about 1.25 to 1.5 ( average of two crude scales ), checked table level with a larger sliding T square level and discovered that it was whack. I rechecked the ground wire, cleaned connections, unscrewed the headshell and cleaned the contacts, did a quick check for everything else and after all was done, got a noticeably cleaner sound with less baseline noise. I am rethinking my position on vinyl. I have gone from lukle-warm to kind of liking it now. I like the fact that in an otherwise digital world, the adjustment paramteters of this device are mechanical in nature and need to be done properly by....me. Loggins and Messina are back on track and sounding pretty damn good. Spun a few records today that cannot possibly sound this good on CD. Thanks guys, dk

Glad you like the results. Proper setup is critical to reproducing all what vinyl has to offer.

mlsstl
09-23-2009, 05:51 PM
emaidel is correct - LP manufacturing consistency is one of the long time blights of vinyl listening.

Generally, record wear will exhibit itself as a loss of high frequencies and an increase in clicks, pops and background surface noise. It is unlikely to increase rumble.

If you read up on the LP manufacturing process, it is almost a miracle that any of them sound good. The master is cut, then plated and molds made. This process has a number of steps and you are several generations from the master by the time the record you buy is actually stamped. Any sloppiness in the process at any stage can cause problems.

Pop/rock records in the 70s were among the worst offenders for poor quality.

If your cartridge/tone arm/table combo sounds rumble free on some records but not others, chances are good you've just got some poor quality records in the mix.

Ed_in_Tx
09-24-2009, 03:14 PM
I finally got mine out for a listen. Maybe little more rumbly than the usual, and mine has a subtle lump in it you can hear with each revolution.