Music Hall mmf 5.1

[poppachubby]

God, I posted this in the general section but I thought that all you analog-heads would want to marvel at its beauty. Just love this table...

[nightflier]

I auditioned both the MMF5 and the MMF7 and the later was quieter and so I bought it. Back then it was also considerably less. I don't know how the 5.1 compares to the 7.1, though.

[02audionoob]

I have an MMF-5. I drool just a bit over the 5.1.

[poppachubby]

I auditioned both the MMF5 and the MMF7 and the later was quieter and so I bought it. Back then it was also considerably less. I don't know how the 5.1 compares to the 7.1, though.


Wow, lucky you, an MMF7. I simply don't have the doe-ra-mi...

[02audionoob]

How about the 2.2, chubbs?

[jrhymeammo]

I think black gloss makes everything look better...

http://www.unique-artwork.de/susanwaylandsway/black-summer-latex-girl.jpg

[bobsticks]

I think black gloss makes everything look better...

Indeed it does.

I auditioned the 5 awhile back when I considered getting into vinyl. To these ears it sounded mighty fine...I'm sure the 5.1 is outstanding as well.

[poppachubby]

How about the 2.2, chubbs?

I don't know noob. Do you think its worth it? I always felt if I would get a MH table, I would do it right. We both know the 2.2 is the ghetto version. Sure, a fine table but I would rather chip in the difference to a 5.1. However, I've never auditioned or even heard a live sampling of the 2.2. OK, insert noob-isms here....

[02audionoob]

I don't know noob. Do you think its worth it? I always felt if I would get a MH table, I would do it right. We both know the 2.2 is the ghetto version. Sure, a fine table but I would rather chip in the difference to a 5.1. However, I've never auditioned or even heard a live sampling of the 2.2. OK, insert noob-isms here....

Yeah...I hear ya. If you're gonna do it, might as well do it right. There's a 2.2, new in box, on Audiogon for $300. But still...no use buying something that you know for sure isn't going to be what you want. In the Music Hall, Rega and Pro-Ject world, the lowest models are like when Sutter Home is on the wine list at a nice restaurant. The people at the next table ordered the Chateauneuf-du-Pape.

[poppachubby]

Hahaha, nice analogy...have you ever heard a HK table? I have a T35C...the T60C is pretty sweet. These are like the 2.2, made for a peasant like me.

[blackraven]

Go with the 5.1 and later upgrade the Cartridge and you will have a great TT. I'm considering the MH 5.1 SE or the 7.1 with in the next year. I also like the Pro-Ject RM5-SE.

http://www.needledoctor.com/Music-Hall-Turntable-MMF-5-1-SE_3?sc=2&category=351

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-RM-5-Turntable_3?sc=2&category=352

[nightflier]

Ah, yes the cartridge. I was auditioning the tables with the default cartridge, and the MM7 came with a Goldring Eroica MC which was very good. The MMF5 had a MM cartridge, but I don't remember what it was. I later upgraded to a Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood MM which was much better, even though it was MM (something I had not expected, so that was a pleasant surprise). Unfortunately, the cantilever broke on the Clearaudio and I never bothered to have it repaired so now the Eroica is back in. For an included cartridge it is still very good.

The MMF5.1 ships with the Goldring GL-2200 MM, and the 7.1 ships with a Goldring GL-2400 MM (which is also on the MMF5.1se). I am actually surprised that the MMF7.1 costs almost $400 more than the previous model and ships with a MM cartridge. Now I haven't heard it, but that's something to think about too. Maybe you could score a good deal on a used MMF7 with the Eroica?

If you buy new, Needle Doctor will let you purchase the 7.1 without a cartridge, and they might offer this on the 5.1 or 5.1se if you ask. I'd say start with the included cartridge, and when you can upgrade that later and when you do, go for a MC.

[atomicAdam]

When I upgrade from my PS-x45 to a better turntable should I keep my Shure M97xE cartridge. I know it is all based on what I get, comes with/without a cartridge, so on and so forth. I guess I'm just curious to know at what price point of a TT (if there is one) I should move away from the M97xE cartridge for something better?

[02audionoob]

The MMF5 had a MM cartridge, but I don't remember what it was.

The Goldring 1012GX.


When I upgrade from my PS-x45 to a better turntable should I keep my Shure M97xE cartridge. I know it is all based on what I get, comes with/without a cartridge, so on and so forth. I guess I'm just curious to know at what price point of a TT (if there is one) I should move away from the M97xE cartridge for something better?

It's all subjective, but I think the M97xE is a very decent cartridge. If you're around the $400-500 range, like the MMF-2.2, the P1, the Debut III, etc...I think that's the level of quality to be expected. However, I'd be more inclined to try something that doesn't roll off the highs as much.

[poppachubby]

When I upgrade from my PS-x45 to a better turntable should I keep my Shure M97xE cartridge. I know it is all based on what I get, comes with/without a cartridge, so on and so forth. I guess I'm just curious to know at what price point of a TT (if there is one) I should move away from the M97xE cartridge for something better?


I quite agree with noob. In terms of price point, it's not here or there. You'd be looking at the high end range before the cart would be of a real serious concern. Your Shure is great and will compliment many different tables.

For me, it's about getting a cart that compliments the table's tendencies, while giving my ear what it wants. I'm still a long way from being "experienced" in this regard. There are so many great carts and tables out there, certainly not enough time or money.

If you plan to sell or trade the Sony, the Shure will be the strongest selling point, so you may want to package them out. If you're not worried about that, or plan to keep it, try the Shure on your upgrade. Glad you're enjoying yourself Adam...BTW, have you picked up any vinyl of interest?

[atomicAdam]

The reason I ask, and I know it is all subjective, but I think you both answered my question pretty well, is that when i upgrade I am aiming at the $1500 price range and wonder, get a TT and ToneArm w/o a cartridge and use the Sure M97xE or get a TT Arm Cartridge all in one go.

Thanks for the value range though, it will help me plan.

The only vinyl I'm proud of owning at this point is My Bloody Valentine 'Loveless'.

[02audionoob]

The reason I ask, and I know it is all subjective, but I think you both answered my question pretty well, is that when i upgrade I am aiming at the $1500 price range and wonder, get a TT and ToneArm w/o a cartridge and use the Sure M97xE or get a TT Arm Cartridge all in one go.

Thanks for the value range though, it will help me plan.

The only vinyl I'm proud of owning at this point is My Bloody Valentine 'Loveless'.

Getting a turntable with a tonearm is one thing, but with a cartridge is another. Turntables have their own sound, so you'll need to make decisions on whether you like Music Hall, Pro-Ject, Rega and the like or maybe Clearaudio, VPI and such. There's different styles. There's the same decisions to be made for cartridges and there's decisions about technical issues, like output voltage, stylus shape, etc. Now if you buy a turntable with the cartridge, it seems like it might be harder to get just the right combination.

[atomicAdam]

Good points noob.

I am going to have to do more research. I'm thinking, maybe, go for a lower priced TT - and a better pre-amp.

It seems so hard, almost pointless, to audition equipment in retailer store when so much will just change when you get it home. Almost worth just buying on a hunch, listening, figuring out, moving on after that. Seems to the only way to learn is to have something to listen to over time. Learn what you like, don't like, of that equipment, and moving on to something different after learning a bassline.

[02audionoob]

I agree with you on all of that. I bought my MMF-5 without having heard one...also bought a Bellari VP129, a Pro-Ject Tube Box and a PS Audio GCPH without having heard any of them.

If you buy stuff that can be resold, you're not out much after your extended audition. With the equipment I've sold, I usually approximately break even.

[poppachubby]

I'm thinking, maybe, go for a lower priced TT - and a better pre-amp.

.

Its funny, I almost edited my last post to include some after thoughts on pre amps. You're on the right track Adam.

I am using a Bellari and a Shure right now. Both have unique sounds that I rely on heavily. I have been saving and researching for a really good tube pre. Pro-ject Tube Box has been calling me. I have heard several and let me tell you it adds some real life to the sound. I would suggest trying out a mid range pre with your Sony. Use Amazon and just send it back, this way you can home audition a bunch and get a good feel for pre's before you upgrade. It's old and not the most ideal but I love my Shure!!

http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_ug/documents/web_resource/us_pro_m65_ug.pdf

[nightflier]

PS, Needle Doctor has an open-box buy on a flawless Rega P2 w/o cart. for $460:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/REP2_CHA_1.jpg
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.10177/.f

[poppachubby]

PS, Needle Doctor has an open-box buy on a flawless Rega P2 w/o cart. for $460:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/images/REP2_CHA_1.jpg
http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/it.A/id.10177/.f

Great find flier! UNfortunately, I have no cash right now for that, and, there's a Rega dealer in my city, they won't step on a dealer's toes. LOL, did you see the wall bracket for 180.00?? Oh man, give me 90.00 and I'll build you a better one. Hopefully someone will take advantage of this deal...

[nightflier]

Poppa, I've been meaning to mention this earlier, but your avatar scares me.

[poppachubby]

Poppa, I've been meaning to mention this earlier, but your avatar scares me.

...and so it should. MMMMMMWWWWWWWHHHHHAAAAHAHAHAHhahahahahahaha....... .

[frenchmon]

I don't know noob. Do you think its worth it? I always felt if I would get a MH table, I would do it right. We both know the 2.2 is the ghetto version. Sure, a fine table but I would rather chip in the difference to a 5.1. However, I've never auditioned or even heard a live sampling of the 2.2. OK, insert noob-isms here....

At the price of the 2.2, I doubt its the ghetto version. What makes it the ghetto version, anyways?

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

Getting a turntable with a tonearm is one thing, but with a cartridge is another. Turntables have their own sound, so you'll need to make decisions on whether you like Music Hall, Pro-Ject, Rega and the like or maybe Clearaudio, VPI and such. There's different styles. There's the same decisions to be made for cartridges and there's decisions about technical issues, like output voltage, stylus shape, etc. Now if you buy a turntable with the cartridge, it seems like it might be harder to get just the right combination.

So do you know what sound these TT's have? Is one warmer than the other?

[02audionoob]

So do you know what sound these TT's have? Is one warmer than the other?

Music Hall, Pro-Ject and Rega turntables would lean to the warmer side, as compared to VPI and Clearaudio. There are various models among all of these that get good reviews. Pro-Ject produces turntables for Music Hall, so there will be noticeable similarities. Music Hall's upgrade path is limited. With Rega, there are some good tweaks on the market.

[nightflier]

Noob, I don't know if I agree. The choice of cartridges makes a very big difference as well. And what if one where to mount a Clearaudio cart on a MH TT?

[02audionoob]

Noob, I don't know if I agree. The choice of cartridges makes a very big difference as well. And what if one where to mount a Clearaudio cart on a MH TT?

I'm just speaking in generalities. You will more often hear an "analytical" comment about a Clearaudio than a Rega. No question the choice of cartridge makes a difference.


Edit:

I feel like clarifying...the issue certainly goes deeper than which one is warmer. I think in some ways Nightflier is right that you can't call one warmer. It's a bit of an oversimplification.

It is common to hear Rega fans comment on the British term PRaT or, to use less esoteric terms, call it more musical. Clearaudio is less known for timing and musicality and more known for greater transparency, greater dynamics and blacker background.

[poppachubby]

So do you know what sound these TT's have? Is one warmer than the other?


You considering an MMF frenchy?

[frenchmon]

Music Hall, Pro-Ject and Rega turntables would lean to the warmer side, as compared to VPI and Clearaudio. There are various models among all of these that get good reviews. Pro-Ject produces turntables for Music Hall, so there will be noticeable similarities. Music Hall's upgrade path is limited. With Rega, there are some good tweaks on the market.

What makes the upgrade path limited? I've noticed that JohnMichael has tweaked his TT out and its seems he can change parts as he wills. Is this not possible with Music Hall and why not?

frenchmon

[frenchmon]

You considering an MMF frenchy?

Yeah...I love the way they look. But I did get a chance to see Mr.Peabodys Rega P3 and its a looker as well.Do you have a Music Hall pappa-C ?


frenchmon

[02audionoob]

What makes the upgrade path limited? I've noticed that JohnMichael has tweaked his TT out and its seems he can change parts as he wills. Is this not possible with Music Hall and why not?

frenchmon

It's just a matter of availability. Those tweaks are mostly specifically designed for use on a Rega, like this stuff... http://groovetracer.com/ . I suppose you could put a better arm on the Music Hall, too...same as you can on a Rega. For other upgrade parts, I don't know where to find any designed for the Music Hall.

[poppachubby]

Yeah...I love the way they look. But I did get a chance to see Mr.Peabodys Rega P3 and its a looker as well.Do you have a Music Hall pappa-C ?


frenchmon

No, I don't. If you check the OP on this thread, you'll see it's me. I started it for the simple reason of drooling over it one day. 02audionoob owns an MMF 5, he almost sold me his. There was a posting on Audiogon recently, the guy was selling his MMF 5.1 and stage for only $200!!!! Crazy right?!? He wrote that he tried out vinyl and didn't like it. More cash than brains I guess.

I don't have the cash right now for a TT upgrade, but if I did, I would spend my cash here:

http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MMF5&nav=cat

Great deal. You can email them for a photo, I can bet you it's in great shape.

I have some things to do before a TT upgrade. 1) get my Golden Tube into golden shape. 2) buy or make some speakers, which is proving to be alot of mind boggling work.

My crown jewel right now is my HK T35C. It's a poor mans Rega. BTW, check your private message box.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3561/3319548797_16e3a4340a.jpg

[dean_martin]

The only vinyl I'm proud of owning at this point is My Bloody Valentine 'Loveless'.
Great album! I listened to it Saturday night.

Does anyone think it's worth it to move up to a table in the Pro-Ject or Music Hall line that has the Pro-Ject carbon fibre arm? The RM-5SE has the carbon fibre arm and supposedly excellent wiring from a well-known cable maker. The latest version of the Xpression has the carbon fibre arm also but I'm not sure if it has the upgraded wiring. To get the carbon fiber arm on a Music Hall, I think you have to move up to the 7.1. The 5.1SE is a nice looking table but I think it comes with the aluminum arm.

[blackraven]

I've been looking at that Pro-ject RM-5SE and the MH 7.1 and 5.1SE. I think that the Pro-ject is a nice compromise between the two and that the carbon fiber tone arm is the deal maker.

[poppachubby]

Does anyone think it's worth it to move up to a table in the Pro-Ject or Music Hall line that has the Pro-Ject carbon fibre arm?

Yep, that arm is notorious. Once you have it, you could re-wire it into another table too, if your path took you that route.

[daviethek]

The MMF 22 is getting slammed as the step child of the product line, however it has been appropriately upgraded over the 2.1, ( which I chucked ), namely it has the arm that used to be on the 5 , a thicker platter and height adjustable feet. Not earth shaking changes, but I give Music Hall credit for knowing what the hell to upgrade when they did upgrade. Now if they would only loose that mind numbing Tracker cartridge they might even sell more.

Just a note: I think analog is really starting to take off again. I say this not because of any statistical data, but because the guys at work are talking about it. These are guys that don't give a rats ass about high end anything, and would prefer to gut deer and rebuild Hemi's. I read something quoted from the owner of Hollywood audio. He said that high end stereo gear appeals to only 1% of the general population. I would suggest it is more like 0.005% in Western Pa. When someone around me says anything at all about audio, I feel a bit less like a freak................ maybe not.

[poppachubby]

The MMF 22 is getting slammed as the step child of the product line, however it has been appropriately upgraded over the 2.1, ( which I chucked ), namely it has the arm that used to be on the 5 , a thicker platter and height adjustable feet. Not earth shaking changes, but I give Music Hall credit for knowing what the hell to upgrade when they did upgrade. Now if they would only loose that mind numbing Tracker cartridge they might even sell more.

Just a note: I think analog is really starting to take off again. I say this not because of any statistical data, but because the guys at work are talking about it. These are guys that don't give a rats ass about high end anything, and would prefer to gut deer and rebuild Hemi's. I read something quoted from the owner of Hollywood audio. He said that high end stereo gear appeals to only 1% of the general population. I would suggest it is more like 0.005% in Western Pa. When someone around me says anything at all about audio, I feel a bit less like a freak................ maybe not.

I can relate to you. Not so much with audio, but with beer. I HATE domestics and am extremely picky when it comes to the ale. I get lots of stupid looks and comments, from strangers and friends alike. But as that perfect beer is going down, I get the last laugh. There is a laugh that comes after that. As they struggle with their bowels the following morning, this is the REAL last laugh. Grolsch and Hi-Fi 'til I die!!

[02audionoob]

I kind of wonder if they've upgraded the MMF-2.2 to the point where it needs to have a cheap cartridge to avoid competing with the MMF-5.1. Put a Goldring GL-2200 on the 2.2 and you're golden.

[daviethek]

They probably bought a ton of the Elans and are using them up. Its a squirly cartridge. That table would be much better with an basic Ortofon or AT 95, both of which are highly upgradable. Is the Goldring 2200 a good cart? Is it in the neighborhood of the AT 440ML? Just curious. Hear a lot about both but no personal experience. My closest with either is the AT 120 upgraded with a Shibata, which I think is OK. .

I think you may be right about the 2.2. They must be doing something right, the damn table is sold out everywhere I checked. I think people are just getting back into the ritual which is good for everyone except those of us looking for cheap records. Buy em while you can I guess. My wife says I am a member of the St Vincent DePaul record of the month club. ( I thought that was funny anyway)

[nightflier]

Someone earlier mentioned the three entry level tables: MMF-2.2, the P1, and the Debut III and that got me thinking about my second 2-channel system, which currently doesn't have a TT, but I wouldn't mind considering it. It's a bit of a hodgepodge of gear I've collected over the years ( Odyssey Candela, Outlaw amp, Onkyo CD changer / Arcam DAC, and Klipsch RB-5 speakers). Believe it or not, as a digital source it sounds pretty good, but what if I wanted to add a TT, in the MMF-2.2, the P1, the Debut III range? More importantly, I'd want to purchase it w/o cart and then add one that would raise the SQ a bit.

[dean_martin]

I can relate to you. Not so much with audio, but with beer. I HATE domestics and am extremely picky when it comes to the ale. I get lots of stupid looks and comments, from strangers and friends alike. But as that perfect beer is going down, I get the last laugh. There is a laugh that comes after that. As they struggle with their bowels the following morning, this is the REAL last laugh. Grolsch and Hi-Fi 'til I die!!

hey pops, have you spent any time at beeradvocate.com? There are many domestic craft brewers making fine beer. Over the past couple of years I've hardly bought the same beer twice - Stone, DogfishHead, Brooklyn, Bell's, Sierra Nevada, Great Divide, etc. are putting out great product in all styles. I don't think I'll ever buy another product from Miller, Coors or A-B. I've only skimmed the surface of imports, but I've found some German wheat beers and Belgian quads that I like so far. I have some offerings from Unibroue, which I believe is Canadian, waiting on me in the fridge. At present my preferences are the extreme beers from the craft brewers in the U.S. as if I really need something else to spend money on.

[JohnMichael]

I once owned a Thorens 295 MK ll with the earlier Pro-Ject arm also used by Music Hall. The arm was good but the electronics designed by Thorens was trouble. Any of the Music Hall or Pro-Ject turntable will be a good choice.

[02audionoob]

Is the Goldring 2200 a good cart? Is it in the neighborhood of the AT 440ML?

I really like the 2200, although it grated on me just a little at first. It's a good all-arounder with good midrange and a clean sound. The top end would likely be a little better with the 440ML due to the micro-linear stylus, but with my AT cartridge and a similar stylus I didn't really care for that.