For you panel lovers. [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : For you panel lovers.



RGA
09-09-2009, 11:31 AM
I am posting this because many of you who like panels but can't afford the "good ones" (ie electrostats not the ribbon shhhshy sound, and with some bass) have a new entry onto the scene. I have not heard them myself but longtime fellow reviewer who has owned Apogee Magnepan dabbled with Quad and Soundlabs and others has stumbled upon a new kid on the block - that he prefers to the new ML CLX. The CLX is something like $25,000.

What is it? Something called King Sound (yeah I never heard of them either). But at a mere $8,000 for their top of the line model they're more than a little intriguing because that's half the price of the Quad 2905 and apparently offers a more full range visceral presentation which frankly has always been the downfall of panels.

Anyway, I figure this might finally be the panel for me - something with some balls and guts behind without requiring massive space (though they're still big and power hungry) - but for an electrostat at the price - they've got me interested and I thought I'd pass it along.

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=513

nightflier
09-09-2009, 01:43 PM
'Wonder how much their more affordable speakers cost. I kind of like the form factor of the Queens, but that would entail mating a conventional woofer with a panel. Not the nicest looking speakers, either.

bubslewis
09-09-2009, 06:43 PM
$20K for the preamp/amps combo, not including cables. Starts getting steep. I'd love to here them though.

nightflier
09-10-2009, 09:41 AM
In that price range, Final Sound also comes to mind. I wonder what King is offering that the others aren't.

E-Stat
09-10-2009, 12:46 PM
What is it? Something called King Sound (yeah I never heard of them either).
This is a Hong Kong based vendor that introduced product (at least to North America) in 2007.


But at a mere $8,000 for their top of the line model...
You are mistaken. As with most brands of stats, King Sound has several models with the TOTL "Emperor" model running $32,000 (they look kinda like Tympani 1s). You are referring to the "King" which is their mid range full range stat. They also make some hybrids. Look here. (http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/products.html)


Anyway, I figure this might finally be the panel for me...
After having experienced quite a few electrostats since '76, I would be remiss to not point out that there is also an *affordable* Sound Lab model in the same price range. One distinction that I find important between the Kings and the Sound Labs is that the King stats are electrostats that run full range while the Sound Labs are full range electrostats. Huh? All of the Sound Lab models use a single diaphragm to cover the full range differing only in the size of the panel. The angled facets also provide better dispersion eliminating one typical complaint of stats. The baby M-2PX (http://soundlab-speakers.com/m2px.htm) has 1800 sq in. of radiating area while the A-1 has 2350 and the Majestic, 3125. My U-1 with the non PX panels has 2200. By comparison, the King has ~1650 sq. in. segmented into two different frequency range panels. For anyone serious about a stat in this range, I would recommend auditioning the latest in Dr. West's thirty year development as well.

rw

nightflier
09-10-2009, 03:13 PM
This may be a stupid question, but why are panels so expensive?

E-Stat
09-10-2009, 06:03 PM
This may be a stupid question, but why are panels so expensive?
That's a fair question. Have you ever looked at Partsexpress.com or Madisound.com at all the stock dynamic drivers that are readily available? You can choose from literally hundreds of different models of woofers, midranges and tweeters and build you own kit from dozens of different formulas. What kind of tweeter do you want? Cone? Soft dome? Metal dome? Ring radiator? Ribbon? Horn? Bullet? Piezo? Mylar? Take your pick. What's your budget? $1.87 for a basic cone? Or, an exotic ScanSpeak ring radiator will set you back a cool $345.00.

Where can you buy off-the-shelf electrostatic panels? Got anything in a seven foot by three foot design? Someone? Anyone? Answer? Such doesn't exist. Virtually all electrostatic speakers are custom built. Most are hand made. All Sound Lab electrostats are assembled by two guys in a small production facility. I've met them both. Ok, so you've got some 2.5 micron mylar sheets with a conductive coating that you must formulate yourself sandwiched between plastic grids with wires running up and down their length. Where's the rest of the cost? Next, you must build a high voltage power supply to drive the stators. 10 kV components are not exactly plentiful and are a lot more expensive than their 50 V counterparts. High voltage toroidal transformers must be custom sourced. Then you must built a frame. Anyone make large steel frames using 3" tubing? Don't think so. Unfortunately, the term "economies of scale" does not apply here as it does with your basic cones 'n domes in a box formula.

There is a good reason why the very best microphones are all (full range) condenser designs. They offer exceptional purity and coherency. A nice Neumann U-87 runs about $4500. Schoeps offers some more cost effective models that run under $2500. Full range electrostats are simply condenser mikes at the other end of the transducer chain. They, too offer exceptional purity and coherency. :)

rw

RGA
09-10-2009, 06:10 PM
Yes I missed the emperor - when I went the website a page with the king came up and hi-fi news said it "King sound has delivered a flagship model with a picture of the King beside it. I have not heard the King so I can't say - I like the Soundlab U1 - not really at that price but I liked it.

I have not liked any of the Martin Logan's enough to consider buying one but I have not heard the CLX. The CLX gets lots of hype so for Doug to prefer the King at less than 1/3 the price it got my attention. I get the sense it's the best panel he's heard and he's heard the big Soundlab - regardless of the design.

E-Stat
09-10-2009, 07:07 PM
The CLX gets lots of hype so for Doug to prefer the King at less than 1/3 the price it got my attention.
Do you realize that the CLX has no bass below 45 hz?


I get the sense it's the best panel he's heard and he's heard the big Soundlab - regardless of the design.
To each his own. He prefers "big" five-way Legacy dynamic speakers. And high powered ICE Power switching amps. Both represent the antithesis of what I prefer.

rw

nightflier
09-11-2009, 08:50 AM
E-Stat, I realize that there are high costs involved in making panels, especially if it's done by two guys by hand, but $30K & up? While Martin Logan doesn't exactly appeal to a lot of folks, they have succeeded in applying economies of scale to many of their models. To a lesser extent, Magnepan has too. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big proponent of the mom & pop business model (Odyssey, Ohm, Channel Islands, Talon, have logged many happy hours in my home). But there just seems to be a point in the higher-priced audio market where markup is arbitrary. I always find myself asking if an $80K piece really sounds better than a $70K piece, or just different. Let's remember that's still a $10K disparity, which is more than any one piece that's ever crossed the threshold of my home.

For a more specific example, what about the disparity in price between say a Soundlab A-1PX and A-3PX? Once the manufacturing costs, parts costs and labor are figured in, these should be closer in price. I just can't believe the A-1PX has parts that are more expensive by some $6K; that's a disparity of 25%. Ironically, the blue book for the used models differs by only $820. Clearly, on the used market, that disparity in price is also considered unjustified.

E-Stat
09-11-2009, 09:09 AM
E-Stat, I realize that there are high costs involved in making panels, especially if it's done by two guys by hand, but $30K & up?
Do you honestly believe that a product should be priced only by adding up the parts cost? I would agree if you are buying a Dayton speaker kit. What about the cost of decades of development? How about Roger Russell's $19,000 speaker system consisting of fifty 3.5" cones? Parts cost couldn't be more than $2000. BTW, there are only two SL models at the $30k figure: the nine foot tall Majestic and my U-1 with the steel frame. Both of those also employ toroidal transformers as well. Even so, they are a third the price of many a box speaker from Kharma, Wilson, Rockport, etc.


For a more specific example, what about the disparity in price between say a Soundlab A-1PX and A-3PX? Once the manufacturing costs, parts costs and labor are figured in, these should be closer in price. I just can't believe the A-1PX has parts that are more expensive by some $6K; that's a disparity of 25%.
You find that a 25% increase in price for 30% more panel area and a correspondingly larger frame (along with shipping crate) structure to be unusual?

rw

RGA
09-11-2009, 10:15 AM
E-Stat

Well Doug and I don't necessarily share similar tastes - if a SET amp can't drive it - I probably don't like it. I heard the Quad 2905 with an OTO and it's the best I've heard the Quad sound (So I will make sure I try it with other upper scale SE tube amps in the future). It would not play as loud as with SS but Quad doesn't play very loud no matter what is used so ...

RGA
09-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Nightflier

I think E-Stat is correct - far too many people on forums equate the cost of a part with the retail price. I think there is something to what you say and certainly you have to consider some elements as to be blunt some companies are far more efficient than other companies. It's not all about the engineer and the products but about the management of the company.

When you have a very small company that builds mostly to order there are no economies of scale. Having said that though - King Sound is a small company and they can put out a speaker like the King for $8k while a BIG name company like martin Logan puts out a $25,000 speaker that doesn't go below 45hz. ML has the economy of scale on their side and thus should have the big advantage. So I certainly wonder about these things. But ML also has much higher overheads, huge advertising costs. The costs to advertise in Stereophile - one advert one issue runs in the thousands and that cost is paid for by customers. Companies like ML and B&W advertise in almost every issue of every magazine on the planet (sometimes multiple full colour page ads). The bigger guys also tend to take up bigger rooms at audio shows, go to all the audio shows, produce full colour glossy literature on EACH product they sell. They hire top flight web designers to make their sites more attractive - all of these costs go into the final product and you pay for it.

Some makers build in China to reduce labour costs - but they take flack for building in China so there is a calculated risk - because while people here may not mind buying something made in China - a lot of people STILL won't buy a Japanese car because of Pearl Harbor.

My speakers are the prime example of what you are talking about. The AN E comes in a kit you can build yourself for $1550.00 plus $800 for their cabinets. The box design is the same all the way up through something like 15 different versions to a whopping $125,000.00. Which I won't argue can be deemed nutty for a two way standmount two driver speaker. But rather than look at the top end price for the top end speaker I always argue for people to consider the entry level model or one up the AN E/LX HE for around $6,500 and compare.

The top of the line models speakers like the AN E - or other smaller companies that have what seem to be astonishing prices often build in very small numbers and are very time consuming to make. Some of it could be argued that the physical parts are a lot better and a lot more expensive to make. With AN some of the wires have a 50% loss rate - so you are not only paying for the wire in the speaker but the wire lost to make the wire in your speaker. I never really understood how the process to make some of these wires come about but it has been an education and not "cheap" like I once thought. Though certainly you have to be aware of the overpriced variety. (and plenty of folks think it's all a waste of time and trot out the DBT) but at least some wires do actually cost a lot to make so it's not total mark-up depending who it is).

Generally the little guy operates on a smaller market from parts costs and labour and overhead companies like Merlin and Audio Note operate at about 3-1. Which is reasonable. Costs them $1k and the dealer is selling it for $3k. Bigger mainstream companies are on the order of 8-1 to 20-1 depending on what it is. This does not mean that they are offering a worse product because again they're costs are often "lower" because they can buy in large bulk.

My problem with the big companies and this goes to what you are saying is that when I compare an Audio Note AX Two standmount speaker for $700 and a B&W 705 for $2300 I start wondering about why the big company is charging so much. They're both similar sized and weighted standmounts(the B&W is a little bigger and heavier but shipping costs would be roughly the same) and both are shipped from Europe. Audio Note is smaller and has to buy their drivers(from Vifa - so they're not total garbage - they're pretty nice), B&W makes them in house in much bigger bulk. Both use similar quality connectors. Granted I am biased because I think the AX Two also sounds quite a bit better(even some B&W owners have said that) but discounting the opinion and just saying the two speakers are in the same league sonically there is a whopping $1600 difference in price. There is nothing particularly new about the design and R&D is not that high in the 705 which is basically a scaled down version of what they've been doing for decades. Conversely the AX Two was designed in house and not a scaled down version of anything and uses wiring the company has to actually make. The difference is that there is practically zero advertising for the AX Two with the sum total verbiage of "designed as a general purpose small loudspeakers" and no full colour brochure and not advertised in any magazine from a company not worried about market share.

My example is not too unlike what kit builders have said for years. I would much rather see other makers adopt the "several versions of the same speaker" approach because I am very skeptical of modifications done after the fact by armchair engineers (who are anything but) selling pricey mods. Magnepan is an example. Oh you don't like the treble hash there is some guy selling some fix for it saying the initial product uses cheap junk. I'd far rather see Magnepan come out with 5 versions of the speaker with their "approved" upgraded versions. It gets away from the excuses that "well RGA you only heard the stock version but I have the modded version and you should buy the speaker and have it modded. Surely the logic there is dismal - buy a speaker that doesn't sound that good on the promise it will be better after expensive modifications.

nightflier
09-11-2009, 01:49 PM
You find that a 25% increase in price for 30% more panel area and a correspondingly larger frame (along with shipping crate) structure to be unusual?

The people buying used don't seem to agree with that logic either.

RGA, I completely agree with the criticism of Magnepan. I now have several models in house (albeit at the lower price points - I'm not that rich), and every tweak makes a difference. This makes comparing notes with other owners a whole lot harder.

E-Stat
09-11-2009, 04:08 PM
The people buying used don't seem to agree with that logic either.
There is a difference between what people buying pay and what the blue book "states". Real life examples on Audiogon don't support that assertion. Look at what is there now. Find an A-1 or M-1 for $820 more than the A-3 listed.

rw

RGA
09-11-2009, 09:18 PM
Used values are also affected if the company puts out new models. Using the AN E again as an example - if you can buy a new model with a new high efficiency hemp woofer that will cause a problem for the guy three years ago who bought a new model for several thousand more but it may have been surpassed by the newer speaker. The used value takes a hit. On the other hand for buyers like myself who got a speaker several years ago and the company does not change models but the new models prices keep rising the used value of my speakers remain quite high. In fact I have had the speaker for a few years now and could actually sell them for more than I paid - regardless of the blue book I have been offered $500 more than I originally paid for them. That is an exception not the rule.

It's not unlike cars - when you buy a used car say a 2000 model year you probably pay more for the 9 year old car for a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic that sold back then for around $15,000 than you would have to pay for just about ANY American car that originally sold for $20K - $25k. There is the blue book and then there is what the market will pay. A Roger Clemens rookie card may fetch one sum in Western Canada but quite a lot more in New York.

Florian
09-12-2009, 06:10 AM
Old news with the usual arrogance and misinformation.

RGA
09-12-2009, 08:01 AM
Florian

Just so you know this is not my review - this review is from an ex-Apogee, ex-Magnepan owner.

Some comments that stood out to me which is why I posted

"Having heard many planars utilizing diaphragms several feet long, I can assure you that the King, to my ear, sounds more lithe and quick than any “full sheet” planars, ESL or otherwise, that I have heard."

"How good is the King Sound the King? Good enough that I think a lot of planar speaker makers are going to be shaking in their boots. This is one serious transducer, price no consideration. I would not want to be a maker of planar speakers going up against the King."

And he's in the process of buying them which is about as high praise as it can get.

Like me he has never been real happy with the bass ability of panel speakers of the non gigantic sized variety, but he is impressed by the bass ability of this speaker and at a fraction of the cost of some of the competitors.

And best of all his 70watt per channel Pathos tube hybrid monoblocks had not a hint of a problem.