Think your kung fu is better than mine?

[poppachubby]

Hey all, I am still relatively new at AR. I wanted to unplug from the "tekky" aspect and unwind here in movie land. I am a fan of the kung fu genre, also asian action in general. I love old school right up to new school. When I say old, I mean Seven Samurai/Sword of Doom old. Any one else here fancy themselves a "master"?? Would love to review and chat with ya.....Chubbs

[Smokey]

Ok. For starter, have you ever seen the movie Heroic Trio?

http://www.lovehkfilm.com/reviews/ab3219/heroic_trio.jpg

[poppachubby]

Yep, some time ago, i don't own it though. It was ok, I will watch anything with Michelle Yeoh but that whole fantasy action isn't always my cup of tea. One that I did like was Dragon Tiger Gate, the story was nothing amazing but the action scenes were super fun and fast...I just rewatched Versus by Ryuhei Kitamura. Now THAT'S a movie...great story, great action and superb dialogue. Versus is great and also his newer flick Death Trance was pretty good. To me he's one of the best out there right now, his movies are killer...should we do the mandatory top 5 list Smoke?

[poppachubby]

OK Smoke-dawg, I'll start it...

5) The Seven Samurai
4)Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
3) Tai Chi Master
2) 36 Chambers of Shaolin

...we could blather on endlessly about this type of list. I hate when guys try their hardest to choose the most obscure movies, thinking that popularity shouldn't play a key factor in this decision. The first four I choose mostly for their impact on the genre and on popular cinema/movie-goers. Honorable mention should go to Tai Chi Master, being one of the first big budget flicks to really push the "wire-fu" to a new limit. Sadly, they were still very inexperienced and CGI was not quite what it is today, a few scenes in this classic have the wires fully in view. Namely, the ambush scene towards the climax where our heroes capture the General. When they are up on the apparatus, it's painfully in view at a couple of points...none the less this one ranks high on any list and is a killer flick. Cudos to all....

1) Snake in the Eagles Shadow.

...this one is a real classic. What's really great is this comes right before wires and trickery were to play a bigger role. Therefore, what you have is a flick that was pushing the choreography and action to the highest limit sans effects. The combination of Ping and Chan is relentless and in my opinion has some of the greatest choreography to this day, super entertaining. Honorable mention to Simon Yuen, the "drunken master". Even my wife can watch this and that says it all!

[Kam]

big martialarts fan here too :)

and actually Jackie Chan used lots of wire/trickery in all his movies, just not the way everyone else did. which doesn't take away from his amazing choreography and stunts, just that he too was/is big on wires/trickery.

[dean_martin]

loved 5 Deadly Venoms in my younger days. too much boring stuff between action sequences, but the different fighting styles kicked a$$.

Master of the Flying Guillotine is lotsa fun too. how 'bout that Indian with 10 ft arms? now that's quality cinema!

[Hyfi]

How about that god awful soccer one? Shaolin Soccer.

[frahengeo]

What, no Bruce Lee fans? Too serious maybe?

Gotta few laughs out of Kung Fu Hustle.

I lived in Japan as a kid and fortunately wasn't confined to base housing. As a result I got to see Jackie Chan's movies before most of my peers did. He was becoming popular in Japan at the time and I saw many of his movie at the local cinema. They didn't show very many Chinese movies, but his formula seem to work really well.

[atomicAdam]

anyways - movies vary, it is hard to pick a best - but fight scenes ... isn't that really what it is all about.

A few or my fave:

Hero: Jet Li and Donny Yen - the music, the simple back ground, and the water are awesome
Drunken Master: Jackie Chan and Chia-Liang Liu
Ong Bak: can't remember a particular part - but just really liked the style

There are obviously a bunch more that are amazing - but I'm at work and drawing blanks..

[poppachubby]

big martialarts fan here too :)

and actually Jackie Chan used lots of wire/trickery in all his movies, just not the way everyone else did. which doesn't take away from his amazing choreography and stunts, just that he too was/is big on wires/trickery.

Yes, wires and "effects" were used by alot of movies. However, they had no way to hide the wires. Limitations caused by this and other problems made the tricks pretty low key. I think even non kung-fu types can think of the 'ol reverse shot in old school kung fu. It's typified by what appears to be someone jumping into a tree but really, they've jumped out and edited the shot.

I'm referring to "wire-fu" which involved larger than life moves and stunts as a result of the wires. Drunken Master and Snake in the Eagles Shadow don't fall under "wire-fu". Quite the opposite, they are non wire-fu masterpieces, still able to entertain fans of a genre that expects wires and insane tricks.

You're right though, in later movies Chan had to jump on the train in order to compete with the Jet li camp who were making crazy awesome flicks.

[poppachubby]

ok Adam...here are a couple of mine...btw, Ong Bak was off the chain, pretty much every fight scene was great but I think the club scene's are the best, have you seen Ong Bak 2?

Iron Monkey...rooftop of courthouse where Wong Kei Ying and the Iron Monkey first get it on...

Snake in the Eagle's Shadow...Shang Kuan Yin and the Priest vs. Pai


Executioners from Shaolin...Hung Hsi Kuan and Pak Mei duel

Crouching Tiger...night fight with Jade Fox and the police detective

Tai Chi Master...Junbao and Tienbo settle the score

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjYP9pS4e7Q

[poppachubby]

Kam, any favorite fight scenes? Or fave flicks in general? My recent watching includes The Rebel, Drunken Monkey, The White Dragon and Underground. UNderground was a real piece of crap, made in the UK by the way, I couldn't even get through the whole movie. The Rebel was amazing and for those who maybe don't know him it features Johnny Tri Ngyuen, one of the best right now. He had a great fight scene with Tony Jaa in the Protector, but he's really come into his own and this flick is proof why. Super awesome story, great action and great dialogue. This is one hell of a movie...

[Kam]

Kam, any favorite fight scenes? Or fave flicks in general? My recent watching includes The Rebel, Drunken Monkey, The White Dragon and Underground. UNderground was a real piece of crap, made in the UK by the way, I couldn't even get through the whole movie. The Rebel was amazing and for those who maybe don't know him it features Johnny Tri Ngyuen, one of the best right now. He had a great fight scene with Tony Jaa in the Protector, but he's really come into his own and this flick is proof why. Super awesome story, great action and great dialogue. This is one hell of a movie...

Tony Jaa is an unbelievable force. what he can do is just amazing. the fact that there are no wires/nets/etc involved is pretty cool too, but just the technical aspects of what he can do is mindblowing. the accuracy and difficulty of throwing 3 (or was it 4) 540 kicks one after another is simply badass. Where Tony is lacking, imo, is the same area Jet Li was lacking. Charisma. Which is what Jackie has in spades. Tony could very well play the Terminator with less range than arnold, but he's new and growing as an artist to compliment his martial artistry.

Also, Jackie did use wires in those movies (i believe), just not in the flying-wire way. While he didn't use the sped up film, (that has an annoying look to it), people just don't fall or move that fast. They do because they're getting yanked down to the ground via hidden wires. So all the impact of something getting punched or kicked has a greater feel to it when they're falling to the ground with such an impact.

Jackie has always been pretty tricky with his stunts and spfx wrirework. It's only lately now that he's been resorting to the regular wire-fu flying style stuff and more "traditional" harness-based wire work.

All that hot wind being said, off the top of my head, Jackie vs. Benny the Jet is one of my all-time fav fight scenes. (the speed of benny's kicks to blow out those candles is just too cool!).

I also like the long takes that jackie did ala fred astaire dance numbers. that's something i really miss in this day of 200 cuts per minute. gimme a long take of beautiful choreography anyday. :)

[poppachubby]

Kam, let's just put the wire-fu behind us and chat about something we agree on, Tony Jaa. I don't want this thread to be a bickering fest. I think you and I probably have more in common than not. For starters, I have all kinds of rants saved up for the topic of sped-up fights. There are a couple of flicks that do it well though. Iron Monkey and Dragon Tiger Gate come to mind. Normally I have no use for a movie like Dragon Tiger Gate but the fight sequences were just so much fun to watch. Other than that, yes I want to see real fight prowess over fancy editing.

That said, indeed Tony Jaa is something special. It never ceases to amaze me to watch him jump clear onto the shoulders of his opponent, and firmly plant his elbow into their head. His athletic ability is endless. I think it's best displayed in his stunt work. The alleyway chase scene in Ong Bak comes to mind. As far as his acting ability goes, he does better than most. He can play "simple" characters well, but obviously we watch him for the beat down he will lay on a guy, not for a heart felt monologue with a supporting female actress.

This is a problem that has affected kung-fu from day one, and I don't need to tell you how rough the early days were. The majority of old school movies are now hard to watch, mostly because of the poor dialogue and acting that appears between the fights. I would say overall Hong Kong has got much better at providing actors who can fight, and vice-versa. With epic movies like Crouching Tiger, Legend of the Black Scorpion and Curse of the Golden Flower relying more on dialogue and plot to move the story, actors can now actually emote and portray characters with some depth that merits awards and acclaim.

In terms of who's who, no one can touch Jackie Chan. We both know that his filmography has sealed the deal for years to come. For those who don't know, you've got lots of catching up to do. One area that I do think Jackie is in dire straits though, is the stunt category. Tony Jaa certainly rivals him in all aspects of stunts and fighting. Obviously, Jackie has the upper hand of being the first but Tony Jaa, for my money, has got just as much talent. It's like trying to compare athletes of past and present, Jessie Owens vs Usain Bolt, etc. It's overall rather pointless but fun none the less.

I think one young actor who embodies it all is Johnny Tri Ngyuen. He has everything a star needs and not just for the kung-fu/action genre. He's definitely one to watch and for anyone who hasn't seen the Rebel, get on it!

Anyhow Kam, what have you watched lately? I already mentioned that Underground sucked, did you see it? Speaking of real fight, I watched a Japanese pic called Black Belt, it was really good. I think I might post it in a review on AR... ok chat soon I hope!

From one junky to another...

[Kam]

ohhh please definitely do NOT take my wire-fu comments as bickering at all, just me trying to split nerd hairs on the topic (like which star trek captain rules kinda thing), but i'm also big into fight choreography and stage combat (as an actor) and that whole category, so i like to talk on the subject. everyone here always appreciates a good spirited discussion on all the movie topics! :)

on Tony Jaa vs. Jackie Chan, i think it's not just a comparison of past vs. present, but also a real advancement of the genre. Since Jackie, i (that i know of at least) don't think anyone has pushed the genre in any sort of direction until now with Tony Jaa. The problem is always that of the audience HERE (meaning the US) not getting a lot of what the rest of the world gets. Case in point is to look at the "World Stars" type polls that are taken in England and Asia and take into account the 'rest of the world' and how many Americans would even recognize names, hell even the faces, that are on the top 10 of those lists.

The same problems bruce faced helped jackie face a little less, and the problems that bruce and jackie faced, are helping Tony face a little less. So his entry into the market here is better and faster than both of those guys, which IMO, is a good thing and allows for the advancement of fight choreography here in American movies. (prime example... take a look at Pierce Brosnan-Bond fights and Daniel Craig-Bond fights and the now wide emergence of Parkour ALL over fight choreography AFTER District B13 was released here)

Lately I haven't had a chance to watch too many martial arts films. I saw Flashpoint with Donnie Yen and have had many discussions with some martial arts buddies about the pros/cons of Donnie vs. Jackie and 'real moves' vs. 'cool moves'. The technically last 'martial art's movie i saw, which could possibly enter my (Genre Movies discussion, although it's arguably NOT a martial arts film primarily) was David Mamet's RedBelt. While the juijitsu in there was eh, the story was great.

Oh and i saw Never Back Down. Cheesy, stupid, predictable. but fun :D

[poppachubby]

Great Kam, I would love to "split hairs" with you!! Hard to get a feel on these forums but I think we're square now. NOW.....

Your opinion just became more credible due to the fact that you're an actor, which I am not. You're able to look at things from an insider point of view. That being said, I'm surprised that you don't feel any actors have made any in-roads until Jaa. I agree with you about Donnie Yen, the majority of his movies are over wrought with effects and tricks. Its to the point where it has a guy askin..."ok, wheres the beef"? However, in a previous post you made a disparaging remark about Jet Li and in your latest post he's not even mentioned. Why the hate on for Jet Li?? I don't need to address his filmography with you, but I will say that he even broke the Hollywood market by crossing over into English speaking movies. Of course, I haven't enjoyed all of them but none the less in the west he is a star. I think 90% of his wuxxia stuff I have enjoyed and his action flicks are usually worth a watch, even the Hollywood produced stuff.

In terms of choreography I would have to agree with you. The arrival of Woo-Ping in Hollywood changed the landscape heavily. Now, even James Bond movies have fast moving, brutal precision fight sequences. Anyone with even the slightest clue about kung-fu history can see the nods to so many old school movies. One of my faves, that actually made me groan in the theatre was the Matrix....hmmmm was it 2 or 3? Anyhow the scene where Neo must fight the endless sea of Smiths. At one point he removes a sign post or a street lamp and starts doin damage, several of the moves were taken straight out of the temple scene in Tai Chi Master. I guess it's a good thing. There's only so much Bruce Willis style fighting a guy can take.

[Kam]

we're all just a bunch of movie doofusses. well i am at least. :) actually more tv-doofusses, well, not tv in general but Lost in particular. The board is pretty dead till fall when 24 and Lost come back on and spark the board back up.

Oh and me being an actor should make my opinion LESS credible! haha. And I think tons of actors have helped the genre out a LOT, and have expanded it's audience, but i don't think anyone has really pushed the limits in the way Jackie did till now. I think that's generally how it is in any field though, the ones that have the ability to do something so extraordinary are once-in-a-generation type people. And it's not that Tony is the ONLY person on the planet who can do what he can do, i know there are tons of martial artists out there, especially trick-kickers that can do amazing moves. But none of them do it while several thousand dollars a second is running through the cameras with a crew watching, and other actors in the scene with them.

On Jet, there's no hate at all in me for Jet. I think he's great, he's very different from Jackie in his style, personna, everything. But he just never had Jackie's charisma from the start (now is a different story as i think he's really come further than jackie has, just that jackie had a different starting point). Look at Drunken Master vs. Once Upon a Time. Jet's great in that, maybe even the 'better martial artist' but you just can't take your eyes off Jackie.

I didn't see a different side of Jet until Unleashed. Where, in his 'simplest' character he showed the most depth in himself. Subsequently with Hero he was also fantastic. But again, i don't think he really changed or pushed the boundaries of the genre as Jackie did.

Woo Ping definitely created a type of wire-fu that is very visually stunning and far more seemless than it had been. I guess here is one guy who definitely changed how choreography was done. With the combo of bullet-time and wire-fu in the matrix that was an explosion of change in fight choreography all over too.

And don't get me started on Forbidden Kingdom.

[poppachubby]

Hahahaha, Forbidden Kingdom. Jet Li had sworn retirement from wuxxia before this came out, that was my excuse...