"Genre" movies that rise above the genre. [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : "Genre" movies that rise above the genre.



Kam
08-26-2009, 05:21 AM
Was just thinking of the Godfather again, as it often comes up in conversations with me and the buds, and how it really is a quintessential genre movie. It's a period-piece, gangster flick. BUT... it's so perfectly executed (IMO) that it rises above the genre to just be an excellent movie. I never think of "period piece gangster flick" when i think of The Godfather, i just think, excellent drama/movie.

Then I read Troy's review of Inglourious Basterds (I haven't seen it yet, but got the spark going), which then got me thinking about what other movies are there that rise above the genre that they are in? I'm not talking about movies specifically made in the dramatic category, but a movie that's specifically made as a genre movie, but SO well made, that you don't even remember it's a genre movie. Although there'll be some choices that are arguably just 'dramatic movies', and not 'genre specific dramatic movies'.

It's all subjective too, as the whole 'one man's trash, another's treasure yada yada' goes. But there aren't many I can think of... I'd be interested if anyone can think of movies that rise above the genre in genres that are more specific, ala Horror and Comedy.

I guess Hitchcock did it, imo, with Rear Window, although that's not what some would even call a "Horror" movie, and Pyscho would be the only other option that's firmly "Horror" but I don't think Pyscho rises above the horror genre, it's just at the top of it.

And oddly enough, when I think of Scifi, I have to go further back in time and technology to find films that rise above the genre, and the more technology has taken over, i can't think of a movie that was made in the last 20 years that rises above the Scifi genre, they just seem to become MORE indepth into the genre.

(And i don't include 'sweeping epic' as a genre, otherwise Lean wins hands down).

Here's some for me:
Paths of Glory - WWII genre
Few Good Men - Courtroom genre (arguably just a drama movie though)
Silence of the Lambs - Horror?/Thriller Genre
2001 - Scifi genre (only one i could think of, maybe Brazil too, King Kong (original))

I know there are others, just can't think of 'em right now.

peace
-k

Worf101
08-26-2009, 05:49 AM
Genre movies that are above the "genre", hmmm. One rule, it can't be the "first" of a film genre, that's "groundbreaking" but it must reinvent almost to rise above its contemperaries.

War on land:
"Saving Private Ryan" - We'd all seen a million war movies before but none like this. No glory, no silly lines, too true for words. Can you look at "The Longest Day" or "The Battle of the Bulge" the same way again?

Gladiator Flicks
"Gladiator" - A staple of Saturday afternoon movie watching for me (Son's Hercules anyone) this is the first one to make the genre "live". You never cared one whit about some half nekid body builder in a loin cloth before, but you did during this baby.

War under water
"Das Boot" - Every other submarine movie was immediately rendered obsolete when this baby came out. I can't look at drivel like "Destination Tokyo" or "Run Silent Run Deep" anymore and they were good flicks.

Gangster Film:
See Kam's original post. The Godfather destroyed em all.

Space Adventure
"Star Wars" - Much as I hate to admit it. The first was the best. The whole world changed after that.

Western
"Once Upon a Time in the West" - This was a toughie for me and I'm sure some will vote for "Unforgiven" but not me. OUaTitW is a mind blower. Just the opening sequence alone with Jack Elam and Woody Strode two Western Icon's in themselves waiting for the arrival of Bronson is timeless in itself.

Horror:
"The Exorcist" "Hellraiser" - Nothing before or after ever looked or hit like these two films. Some might cry "blasphemy" putting anything with The Exorcist but I am. Nobody'd EVER seen anything like Hellraiser before for good or ill.

Ramance
"Titanic" - Sorry but this movie had women weepin' and wailing for lost love from here to Pluto. Dammit, the numbers speak for themselves and there's just enough action and drama that a man can sit down and watch it too without questioning his own sexuality.

Well that's all I got off the top of my head. Good topic, I'll be watching it closely.

Da Worfster

Kam
08-26-2009, 09:12 AM
good choices Worf! i was also just thinking about SPR on the WWII movie front. it was something else entirely!

for my 2 cents though, i'd agree to disagree on Star Wars. I thought it was very groundbreaking in it's use of special effects, but i think all it did was redefine the limits of what was capable in Scifi, not to rise above the genre. not that redefining a genre is any small feet, it certainly openned up storytelling capabilities within the SciFi genre.

it's been a few years since i've seen it, might have to pop it in to the 'ol dvd player... if i can find an original cut of the darn thing. :D

Troy
08-26-2009, 10:46 AM
After a few minutes thought, a few genre movies that rise above genre:

Unbreakable

Dr. Strangelove

Pulp Fiction

Deadwood

Unforgiven

Fight Club

The Exorcist

Vanishing Point

Amelie

Ghostbusters

Alien

nightflier
08-26-2009, 12:47 PM
Maybe some of these would fit better in their own sub-categories:

Gangster-Comedy: Pulp Fiction
Crime-Drama-Horror: Seven, with Silence of the Lambs nipping at its heels (pun intended)
SciFi-Silly: The Fifth Element

I also don't agree that Unforgiven fits the Western genre because it really tries to debunk many of the theme-defining attributes of previous Westerns. Maybe it should be classified as anti-Western?

Here's a few others:

Fantasy - the LOTR. Yes, I know it got a little JarJarBinxy at the end, but you have to admit that it was one of the greatest film-making undertakings in recent memory - the scope alone is remarkable.

Political Drama - Smiley's People (one of those films that brought the genre back from obscurity and the banality of your typical flag-waving cold-war fare - think Rambo).

Foreign Language - Cinema Paradiso (an old standby, yes, but is there anything that compares?)

Martial Arts - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (it made the genre mainstream)

Documentary - Fahrenheit 911 (whatever side of the isle you may sit on, the fact is Moore made a blockbuster out of a documentary). Others that might qualify: An Inconvenient Truth and Supersize Me.

Recent Wars (post VietNam) - No Man's Land or Black Hawk Down (both shockingly disturbing and bringing war films back into the mainstream). Another possible contender is The Killing Fields.

Historical - The Mission, Eisenstein's Ivan the Terrible, or Braveheart (the mission and Breaveheart both resurrected the historical epic in their respective periods, and Ivan is perhaps one of the greatest historical films ever made).

Troy
08-26-2009, 03:10 PM
I also don't agree that Unforgiven fits the Western genre because it really tries to debunk many of the theme-defining attributes of previous Westerns. Maybe it should be classified as anti-Western?

Fantasy - the LOTR. Yes, I know it got a little JarJarBinxy at the end, but you have to admit that it was one of the greatest film-making undertakings in recent memory - the scope alone is remarkable.

IMO, Unforgiven fits this thread perfectly. It turned the western genre upside-down and debunked its entire mythology. It belongs on this list specifically because it is the anti-western! Same with Unbreakable. It dared to tread where no superhero movie had before: it made the superheroes so human, even they weren't aware they were supers! It was so subtle, I don't even think most moviegoers quite got that. In a genre so overloaded with eye-rollingly cornball, excessively earnest crrrrap, written for an 8 year old audience, Unbreakable was a genuine stroke of genius. The Incredibles is a close second.

Those 2 movies simply define what "rising above their genre" means for me, whereas a fantasy procedural like LOTR sits square in the center of it's genre, never rising above its surface story. LOTR doesn't pretend to be anything other than a rote recitation of the Tolkein books.

I feel the same way about SPR, Cinema Paradiso, Crouching Tiger, 5th Element, Blackhawk, Das Boot, Silence of the Lambs, and several others. These are all good or great movies, but rising above, or moving beyond, or transcending, genre? Movies that render their genres obsolete or changed forever? I don't see it. Maybe my definition of this is different than yours?

The 'Terds is a must for any movie fan!

nightflier
08-26-2009, 04:20 PM
We obviously disagree about what "genre defining" means.

Troy
08-26-2009, 09:05 PM
We obviously disagree about what "genre defining" means.

"Genre defining?"

Read the name of the thread and get back to me.

02audionoob
08-26-2009, 09:15 PM
Seems like High Noon, Vertigo and 2001: A Space Odyssey transcend. And Raging Bull...is sports biography a genre?

Kam
08-27-2009, 08:23 AM
good call on Alien, that is just a damn good movie and was an excellent cross-genre movie that rises above both the slasher and scifi genres. that's tough to do! I was thinking of Aliens earlier, but i think it's another that just is at the top of it's action/sci fi genre, doesn't rise above it.

(speaking of, i hear talk (albeit just internet talk) of Ridley coming back to the Alien franchise....)

nightflier
08-27-2009, 09:07 AM
All right, so what do you mean by rises above the genre? Either it does because it's exemplary of the genre, or it does because it redefines the genre.

Take Unforgiven for example. It redefined the Western, but does that mean it rose above, moved beyond, or transcended the genre? I'm not sure if those qualifiers apply. IMO, LOTR actually did rise above, moved beyond and transcended the genre, and it did so without a visceral punch to the gut like The Matrix, perhaps did. In a way, LOTR pushed fantasy farther than anything that came before it and managed to do so without most people realizing it. The fact is, everything that came after measures itself against it.

The Matrix, for those who read SciFi was a bit of a ho-hum rehash of a pretty old concept, but it's commercial success vaulted the concept to the forefront. It took a staid concept and commercialized so that it was palatable to the masses. So that even if the story itself, the acting, or even the special effects did not make it rise above, move beyond and transcended the genre, it's success at the box office did. This is the same thing that LOTR did, IMO.

Troy
08-27-2009, 09:33 AM
All right, so what do you mean by rises above the genre? Either it does because it's exemplary of the genre, or it does because it redefines the genre.

I think it's about redefining the genre, not being exemplary of it. It has absolutely nothing to do with how much $ it made. But hey, I didn't start the thread.

Kam
08-27-2009, 09:49 AM
For me... to rise above the genre means that the movie breaks the contraints/boundaries/rules/what have you of the genre to the level that it is no longer thought of as a "genre movie."

Using my 2001 example.

When I first think of movies like Star Wars, Serenity, Matrix, Star Trek, etc. I think first, foremost, and only of a sci fi movie. The genre that all of them are made in. When I first think of 2001, i think it's an excellent drama movie first, and a sci fi movie second. The genre of sci-fi is no longer how i define that movie even though that is the genre it is made in. The genre becomes secondary to the story telling, where as in ALL of those movies mentioned above, in my opinion, the genre is the primary part of the movie. They can still be excellent movies, and push the boundaries of the genre, but they do not break free of the contraints of the genre in that they will always be thought of as a genre movie FIRST. At least in my mind. Boxoffice success is meaningless to this, but that's just to my definition of how I'm thinking of these movies.

Troy
08-27-2009, 10:48 AM
Yeah, what Kam said . . . except that I think Matrix was moved beyond sci-fi because it looked inward at the human psyche.

How about:

Jaws- Took horror films to a new place, incorporating classic sea story elements and suspense. Was the first summer blockbuster.

Bonnie and Clyde- Brought the road picture into the 60s with a mix of love story, action chase and police procedural. Extremely violent for its day.

Rosemary's Baby- Again, this one brought it's genre into the 60s, combining it with a mix of comedy, romance and surreal terror. The banal, everyday quality of the first 2 acts was something new.

Princess Bride- Totally shattered the swashbuckling and Arthurian genres with it's mix of sly-winking comedy and breaking down the 4th wall.

Being John Malkovich- WTF was that? A comedy? A tragedy? An exercise in surrealism? Yes. See also Adaptation.

MASH- Brought the anti-war film to a new generation without actually showing combat. Brilliant use a metaphor and comedy.

Harold and Maude- Singlehandedly invented the "indie" genre. Totally defies genre pigeon-holing.

Wall•E- How mature can animation get? Is it simply a colorful kids movie or a sly commentary on the waste and alienation of modern society?

Kill Bill- May be the biggest genre mashup in film history.

Smokey
08-27-2009, 06:49 PM
Ramance
"Titanic" - Sorry but this movie had women weepin' and wailing for lost love from here to Pluto. Dammit, the numbers speak for themselves and there's just enough action and drama that a man can sit down and watch it too without questioning his own sexuality.

You must be smoking :D

That was one boring movie. If you ever watch The Original Kings of Comedy dvd, Steve Harvey does couple of jokes about the movie and event itself that had everybody in tears. And I agree with him.

Moon Struck with Cher would have been a better candidate for that spot.

Worf101
08-28-2009, 05:22 AM
You must be smoking :D

That was one boring movie. If you ever watch The Original Kings of Comedy dvd, Steve Harvey does couple of jokes about the movie and event itself that had everybody in tears. And I agree with him.

Moon Struck with Cher would have been a better candidate for that spot.
Another county heard from :ciappa: !!!! Welp, I can see your point but you have to understand. It took me two whole months to get in to see that movie, and then I had to go to a weekday matinee. Something that strike that big a chord with so many HAS to have something going for it, for good or for ill.

Da Worfster

poppachubby
08-31-2009, 05:15 AM
Much like Enter the Dragon, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon helped to re-popularize the kung fu genre back into the west.

canuckle
09-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Underdog-finds-triumph sports movies: Rocky

There's been a billion such films since. Long-shot candidate(s) fights hard with nothing but determination and courage to win respect and personal triumph. But before and since Rocky, they've largely all been formulaic and predictable. When they do work, they tend to come off as unoriginal rip-offs of Stallone's masterpiece.

Action superstar shoot-em-up showpiece: Terminator 2

Bodybuilders that can't act are not in short supply at the video store, but T2 was completely different somehow. The CGI work (while looking terrible today) was revolutionary at the time, the performances were spot-on, the story was great, and the tension was genuine. It was an exciting couple of hours at the theatre.

Feanor
09-03-2009, 05:39 AM
Much like Enter the Dragon, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon helped to re-popularize the kung fu genre back into the west.

Agreed. The best, (and arguably only decent), "kick opera" at least back to Bruce Lee.

Feanor
09-03-2009, 05:50 AM
Maybe some of these would fit better in their own sub-categories:

Gangster-Comedy: Pulp Fiction
Crime-Drama-Horror: Seven, with Silence of the Lambs nipping at its heels (pun intended)
SciFi-Silly: The Fifth Element

I also don't agree that Unforgiven fits the Western genre because it really tries to debunk many of the theme-defining attributes of previous Westerns. Maybe it should be classified as anti-Western?

Here's a few others:

Fantasy - the LOTR. Yes, I know it got a little JarJarBinxy at the end, but you have to admit that it was one of the greatest film-making undertakings in recent memory - the scope alone is remarkable.

Political Drama - Smiley's People (one of those films that brought the genre back from obscurity and the banality of your typical flag-waving cold-war fare - think Rambo).

Foreign Language - Cinema Paradiso (an old standby, yes, but is there anything that compares?)

Martial Arts - Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon (it made the genre mainstream)

Documentary - Fahrenheit 911 (whatever side of the isle you may sit on, the fact is Moore made a blockbuster out of a documentary). Others that might qualify: An Inconvenient Truth and Supersize Me.

Recent Wars (post VietNam) - No Man's Land or Black Hawk Down (both shockingly disturbing and bringing war films back into the mainstream). Another possible contender is The Killing Fields.

Historical - The Mission, Eisenstein's Ivan the Terrible, or Braveheart (the mission and Breaveheart both resurrected the historical epic in their respective periods, and Ivan is perhaps one of the greatest historical films ever made).

Damned good list, but ...

I slightly preferred Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, Spy which was sort of the prequel to Smiley's People, based on John le Carré too of course and by the same crew including Alec Guinness. Best TV drama ever up to and probably including Rome.

I was disappointed by Fahrenheit 911 but I saw it only after Sicko, which IMO is the best, (most reasonable and coherent), of Michael Moore's efforts.

Feanor
09-03-2009, 06:10 AM
Yeah, what Kam said . . . except that I think Matrix was moved beyond sci-fi because it looked inward at the human psyche.

How about:

...
Princess Bride- Totally shattered the swashbuckling and Arthurian genres with it's mix of sly-winking comedy and breaking down the 4th wall.

....

I agree about Princess Bride. Inexplicable, but it's been a favorite re-watcher of mine (together with my wife who likes it even more than me).

Fifth Element, mentioned by Nightflier, is another favorite re-watcher of mine.

If re-watching is a criterion I'll have to mention Conan the Barbarian, an early Holywood role for Schwazenegger also starring James Earl Jones. And Monster Squad, the kids' quasi-horror flick.

poppachubby
09-03-2009, 06:30 AM
Agreed. The best, (and arguably only decent), "kick opera" at least back to Bruce Lee.


...ahhaha "aruguably" indeed...there has been some great ones before and since but for some reason Hollywood really took to this one. And so they should have, great flick...

3LB
09-03-2009, 08:14 AM
I think the western has had it share of facelifts over the decades. It was already a staple of the movie industry by the time The Searchers came out, what with John Wayne its anti-hero, cast slightly against type, it was the first portrait of a western protagonist in anything less than perfect light.

About 8 years later, A Fist Full of Dollars came out and really blurred the lines of hero/anti-hero. Eastwood's 'man with no name' wasn't a do-gooder - justice was usually only served when injustice inadvertantly crossed paths with Eastwood's amoral drifter and inconvenienced him. This was the moment when westens changed, and any movies that came after that used a tradtional approach looked so tame. The Man With No Name series took the danger out of every western that came before and made them look like TV shows. It made Eastwood an star. It continues to influence nearly every western that comes afterward. I'll venture that its anti-hero portrait was so compelling and bankable, it bled over into cop/crime drama and possibly gave someone the idea to write gangster dramas from the crime family's perspective.

nightflier
09-04-2009, 10:45 AM
I think the western has had it share of facelifts over the decades. It was already a staple of the movie industry by the time The Searchers came out, what with John Wayne its anti-hero, cast slightly against type, it was the first portrait of a western protagonist in anything less than perfect light.

About 8 years later, A Fist Full of Dollars came out and really blurred the lines of hero/anti-hero. Eastwood's 'man with no name' wasn't a do-gooder - justice was usually only served when injustice inadvertantly crossed paths with Eastwood's amoral drifter and inconvenienced him. This was the moment when westens changed, and any movies that came after that used a tradtional approach looked so tame.

Of course, that being my avatar and all (and the fact that I've seen every Clint movie and own almost half of them in one format or another (yes, even Bridges, Paint your Wagon, and Honkytonk Man). But I also saw Unforgiven as the natural conclusion of the theme. I hate to say it, but there really hasn't been a Western since Unforgiven that I've cared for much.


The Man With No Name series took the danger out of every western that came before and made them look like TV shows. It made Eastwood an star. It continues to influence nearly every western that comes afterward. I'll venture that its anti-hero portrait was so compelling and bankable, it bled over into cop/crime drama and possibly gave someone the idea to write gangster dramas from the crime family's perspective.

Callahan was really an extension of the theme in an urban setting.

Looking forward to seeing what he does with the upcoming Brubeck movie.

Smokey
09-05-2009, 12:30 AM
The Searchers came out, what with John Wayne its anti-hero, cast slightly against type, it was the first portrait of a western protagonist in anything less than perfect light.

I think historically, that honor goes to Winchester 73 with James Steward which came out six years before The Searchers. :)

http://www.dvdinmypants.com/features/02-08/images/westerns/Winchester73_3.jpg