Buying new bookshelf speakers

[Freewillisdead112]

So I'm hard pressed for a new set of speakers. My budget is $500 - $600.

I have found these couple speakers in my price range that look pretty good.

Paradigm atom V.6
Axiom M3 v2
magnepan MMG
Fluance ES1 (they are small towers that I could make space for)
b&w 686

If there is anything I've missed, please let me know

Anyone who has or has heard any of these I would love to hear what you think.

I need a speaker that can sound great on good recordings and not sound horrid on bad ones.
Thanks

[TheHills44060]

Out of that list the 686's are a clear winner to me.

[Freewillisdead112]

I thought they sounded very good when I listened to them at the local a/v store. Is It that much of a diference between the paradigms and the b&w's?

[TheHills44060]

The 686 is my favorite speaker B&W makes as far as price/performance/value goes so I'm a little biased towards them.

I've never been impressed by any Paradigm speaker except for some of their subwoofers from the mid-90's so the atom was quickly scratched off your list for me.

[Freewillisdead112]

do you own a pair of 686's?

I live In cleveland as well and would love to hear them In a home environment.

[audio amateur]

I own the 686. They fair quite well in small rooms, don't know how they do in larger ones. I'd try to grab a pair of 685s. They sound similar, but the 685 having more scale and low end grunt.

[JoeE SP9]

Although I love anything from Magnaplanar, the MMG's will probably not satisfy you without a sub.

[Mr Peabody]

I would scratch the Maggies and Fluance off the list. Maggies are not for you, they are not a R&R speaker and take some big power to push. The Fluance I have not heard good things about although I've never heard them personally.

In general I prefer Paradigm over B&W, however, the Atom last I saw only was rated to go down around 90 Hz which leaves a lot of bass information lost. I don't normally recommend Klipsch to people but you might want to give them a listen to see what you think. They are very efficient which means they will play loud without big power and they are generally good matches for lower power and vintage gear, especially Metal heads :) The B&W will offer overall better sound but you may prefer the raw bite and kick of the Klipsch. Depends on what type of system you are putting together. If to pair with a Cambridge to achieve best sound the B&W would be your best bet, if you wanted something to rock in place of the Mach's give the Klipsch a listen.

[MikeyBC]

There's lots of good used stuff out there for your price range. you can find PSB Stratus Mini's used for under 500 bucks nowadays...they were a great small speaker. Or a pair of Paradigm Studio 20's would be another option

[E-Stat]

Although I love anything from Magnaplanar, the MMG's will probably not satisfy you without a sub.
I thoroughly enjoyed MG-IIs driven by a 100 watt/channel Audire amp when I was 19. My room allowed plenty of space behind the speaker for optimum performance. It was my gateway into the planar world. Honestly, all of these speakers would benefit from a sub. The 5" woofers in the bookshelves aren't exactly room shakers. :)

rw

[Freewillisdead112]

Thanks guys.

I am not a bass head. Most of the time I keep bass a 3 out of 10 and the loudness off.

I just want something I can listen to for good times.

I like to background music cds when I first get them to see If I get the tapping effect. And I need a tappable speaker. =]

[Freewillisdead112]

So as of right now, I have narrowed It down to the....

MMG's
Atom's
686's
and the Axioms.

I dont mind a lack of bass, Its more a less detail that I'm looking for. From everything I've read about the MMG's there full of nothing but detail. As long as theres some mid bass, Im a happy camper =]

[Freewillisdead112]

So i have narrowed It down to....

The MMG's
The axioms
The 686's
and the Atom's

I have read that the MMG's are full of detail and nice midbass. Thats all I am really searching for Is a budget clear speaker that can handle 80's quality hardcore recordings without making It sound like Im In a black hole of music.

[TheHills44060]

do you own a pair of 686's?

I live In cleveland as well and would love to hear them In a home environment.
Ha small world...nope, sorry I do not own the 686's. Which hi-fi shops have you been checking out in the area?

[Freewillisdead112]

I have only been to audio visons. My girlfriend hates going to hi-fi stores with me, as I will stay there for hours just asking stupid usless questions. And plus shes the only one with a car at the moment, so that helps.

Audio craft has definitive and paradigm right?

[TheHills44060]

yeah audiocraft has DF and Paradigm. I'm prolly gonna head to the one in Mayfield to order a part for my amp tomorrow.

[JoeE SP9]

If you have the space get the MMG's. They must be placed 2 feet or more from the wall behind them. If you can't place them properly, don't waste your time with them. The clarity and clearness may draw you in but you will notice very quickly that a sub woofer is a necessity.:yikes: Don't skimp on a sub woofer.:hand: Save up and wait until you can buy a decent one. A good sub may cost as much as the MMG's. It will be worth the wait.
After that we can discuss a good integrated or a preamp, power amp combo.!!!!!:idea:
Your current integrated will do for now but MMG's like all Maggy's, only come to life with plenty of power. :prrr:

BTW: It may take as long as 30 days to break in a pair of new Maggy's.

[nightflier]

Well, my vote goes to the MMGs, especially for what you're looking for. I like to try things off the beaten track, but even from the better known manufacturers there are some standouts that meet your sound requirements:

- Focal
- NHT
- Usher
- Revel
- Monitor Audio
- Linn
- Polk (LS series)

If you're willing to check out some of the lesser known brands, check out:

- Quad 11 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1253642138&/Quad-11L2-Gloss-Black-). Quad voices their box speakers to match their panels, so if you like the MMGs, that may be an option.
- Odyssey Epiphany (http://www.odysseyaudio.com/products-epiphonyII.html). I couldn't find a used pair on sale, but they are a great speaker for the money, especially used.
- Amphion Ion (http://cgi.ebay.com/Amphion-Ion-Bookshelf-Speakers_W0QQitemZ280385002064QQcmdZViewItemQQptZS peakers_Subwoofers?hash=item41483f9a50&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) & Helium
- Elac BS123 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1253971782&/Elac-BS-123-monitors-from-Germ). German precision.
- Triangle Titus (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1255130440&/Triangle-titus-es-dealer-demo-). Wonderfully airy midrange.
- Omega Super 3 (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1254942733&/Omega-Super-3-Bipole-Red-Paris). You don't need a big amp for these.
- And if you can find it, something from the nOhr line like the 5.1 in real teak wood (http://www.norh.com/Welcome/5.1.html).
- Zu Audio Druid Credenza (http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=41&category_id=1). Not easy to find either, but a beautiful speaker.

At your price point, these would have to be used, but people usually take good care of monitors, especially if you buy on Audiogon.

[Freewillisdead112]

yeah audiocraft has DF and Paradigm. I'm prolly gonna head to the one in Mayfield to order a part for my amp tomorrow.

yeah I wanted to go up to the craft seeing as I have heard they have great prices on used Items. And used Is me =]

[Freewillisdead112]

If you have the space get the MMG's. They must be placed 2 feet or more from the wall behind them. If you can't place them properly, don't waste your time with them. The clarity and clearness may draw you in but you will notice very quickly that a sub woofer is a necessity.:yikes: Don't skimp on a sub woofer.:hand: Save up and wait until you can buy a decent one. A good sub may cost as much as the MMG's. It will be worth the wait.
After that we can discuss a good integrated or a preamp, power amp combo.!!!!!:idea:
Your current integrated will do for now but MMG's like all Maggy's, only come to life with plenty of power. :prrr:

BTW: It may take as long as 30 days to break in a pair of new Maggy's.

I am going to be moving from a 600 sq. ft. apartment Into a 1200 Sq ft one In february and wont be buying much more furniture so space will not be an issue.

I was looking at a Marantz Int. Amp a little while ago for $450 that can handle a 4ohm load. Does marantz still make a decent budget system??

[Freewillisdead112]

I was also looking at the energy mini monitors (forget the model) for like 100 bucks. They look sweet and Its going to take me until february to get the 5-600 together and would love to have something....now!

any takes on those or the Insignia ones at bestbuy. For like 80 bucks, they sure sound good!!

[bfalls]

I bought a pair of Insignias, I believe the model was the B2111. They were $45/pr at he time. They implement many good design traits, non-parallel walls, coaxial mounted tweeter in a 6 1/2" woofer. They also looked great in piano black finish. They sounded OK. A little less high-end than I'm used to and not as efficient, but great for a $45/pr speaker.

I've also recently purchased Emotiva ERM-1s on closeout for $149/ea with shipping cost of $10. Best $300/pr speakers I've heard. They employ two 6 1/2" woofers, silk dome tweeter, aluminum front and rear panels and contour switches for tweeter adjust and boundary compensation. Well worth a look. After listening, I decided to purchase a third for the front end of a 5.1 system.

[Freewillisdead112]

Nice. I am not really used to high end yet, so I'm not sure that i would notice them being bad. They are the ones your talking about, there 80 bucks now.

I figure why not, best buy takes returns all day. I bought those sony 50 dollar bookshelfs 4 times trying to like them....4 times!!! And everytime...guess who went back?

[bfalls]

I see the Insignias on ebay quite frequently, but didn't see any today. I'm not surprised the price has increased. It's a nice little speaker using better than average current speaker technology. A few magnitudes better than "White Van", but at less than "White Van" price.

[Freewillisdead112]

I still have not heard a pair of "white van" anything, but almost got cought up in the fancy look a couple times. But I am a google search master and don't buy anything without making sure It's good to go (at least somewhat okay). Now all I gotta do is unload these so I can get something that at least....

Can play a movie without 95% distortion.

=[ I miss my jbl's

[JoeE SP9]

You might want to look into some used Infinity floor standers. Ones with "leaf" EMIT tweeters and ten or twelve inch woofers. They can be had on CL for reasonable prices. Of course a pair of Magnaplanar MG-1's and a sub (both used) will sound better IMHO. I've seen MG-1's for as little as $200. The look of MG-1's has considerable "WOW" factor beyond the "wow" for the sound.

[Freewillisdead112]

Everytime I see Magnaplanar's on CL they need to be rebuilt. And I have the slightest clue how to do that. There Is always something good out there, but It's always to far or to expensive. People need to get a blue book or something.

This guy on CL keeps trying to see his sony a/v thats like 10 years old for 150 bucks. Its a entry level one at that......Oh, people.

[Freewillisdead112]

anything worth looking into???


http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1326776818.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1318050927.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1326630394.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1326346526.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1326199051.html (simple re-foam)
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1326128550.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1325933616.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1325911702.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1325904952.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1325599503.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ele/1325601948.html

[JoeE SP9]

Everytime I see Magnaplanar's on CL they need to be rebuilt. And I have the slightest clue how to do that. There Is always something good out there, but It's always to far or to expensive. People need to get a blue book or something.

This guy on CL keeps trying to see his sony a/v thats like 10 years old for 150 bucks. Its a entry level one at that......Oh, people.

Rebuilding Magnaplanars is inexpensive and quite easy. There are several threads on AK that are devoted to just that. Rebuilding them consists mostly of using DAP cement and re-gluing wire onto the diaphragm.
The re-build kits from Magnaplanar are inexpensive. I believe they are in the $50 area.

[TheHills44060]

Hey Freewillis, I have a bunch of Infinity stuff I'd like to get rid of if you're interested. Check your PM.

[RGA]

From reading this you want a speaker that will sound good with good recordings and one that will not drive you nuts on lesser recordings. I would avoid magnepan like the plague if that's the case but as they say to each their own. I find them to drive the music selection than let you drive the music selection. They're fussy to place, fussy to drive, but they look cool and will afford you the conversation piece when your buddies come over and say "wow what are those funky looking thing?" The 1.6 is the best model in their line-up in my opinion and justifies its price. It's the only model I think that does justify its price and I still would not touch it with a ten foot pole if Rock, alternative, hip hop - or basically anything amplified. However, strings are nice and left to right soundstaging is as good as you'll likely get or ever need - however the off axis response means you can't move your head more than a couple of centimeters or else the entire stage falls apart.

The MMG has appeal for acoustic instruments at low volumes and if bass is not necessary they're a good buy. But they're extremely limited again if music is amplified (rock, hip hop, pop, country etc) is going to be played - and if you want to play at good drive levels.

They're worth a listen - but make sure you buy based on sound - not just the "that's cool I've joined a club" platform.

[Florian]

If you do not want to join a club and say "wow, i got those too" then i would avoid Audio Note gear as well. I wouldnt touch that with a 10 foot pole either....urg :out:

[RGA]

Yes Flo believes that that the MMG is the absolute top of the line Rock speaker on the planet as you can tell from all the rock concert venues that don't use panels - obviously the industry is wrong and Flo is right. But then he's a club member.

[Freewillisdead112]

Good looking guys! As of right now I am trying to download all my cd's that are under 320kbs and are VBR to at least 225kbs or higher. So I'm trying to keep the bad recordings away. But like all older hardcore/punk, It was ment to sound like ****.

I gotta find something here soon before I expload! These mach's are so loud and annoying! Anyone want to donate a speaker to the kid needs good sound fund????

=]

[Freewillisdead112]

I would still like to listen. The logan's I heard were so good with metal. But I cant afford logans so thats outta line.

[RGA]

I would not be dumping music because of "so-called" bad recordings because they may not be nearly as bad as you think. I feel comfortable listening to any album I have from any genre I have - and that is possible to do on the cheap.

1) I would start by looking at speakers "not" using metal tweeters. They're great to sell people in a rushed environment (big box chain) because their sound stands out but what impresses at first usually creates fatigue long term. This is not to say that a silk dome can't be bright - they can but generally if the maker chose it that was not the goal in mind.

2) Something noted to be a bit smoother sounding but also a good all-rounder. On the cheap it might be Wharfedale (with a carefully chosen subwoofer) or a slightly used Dynaudio 52SE standmount which can be had for $500 used. Or if you are planning a subwoofer then Omega loudspeakers or other 'good" single driver higher efficiency speaker could be a strong candidate.

3) Amplifiers and sources matter a lot - some tube amps can clean up the treble hash and reduce irritation but they can cost money and require more work and time.

4) It really simply boils down to you doing the auditions with your favorite music (regardless of recording quality) because it is the music that should drive the purchase not the speaker that can only play 5% of your recordings well and a salesman telling you that that's because they're "accurate" - it's BS and very worrisome to sell something for music that makes the music worse. Also don't worry about spending less than you planned. Back in the day I purchased the 302 from B&W over their more expensive stable mate in the 602 and to this day I prefer the 302 to the 600 and CM range and in some ways the 700 line. The 302 had problems but all day listenability was not one of them. And it was the least expensive model - using a soft dome tweeter.

Used would be your best bet - speakers last a long time - a 3-5 year old speaker that was $1500 could be had in your price range - but that market it is so massive that it's hard to make recommendations. A good dealer could help you out - but not ever town/city is blessed with one of those.

[RGA]

I would still like to listen. The logan's I heard were so good with metal. But I cant afford logans so thats outta line.

Logans are electrostatic and to my ear they sound far more natural than ribbons producing the same mid and treble bands. The Quad 2905 is an electrostatic panel and one of my favorite loudspeakers - but it's $14,000.

Martin Logan uses a bottom of the panel enclosed woofer in their speaker because they recognize that in order to get dynamic sound you need a dynamic driver. Ie; to get bass you need a cone driver or a "massive" sized panel.

Most domestic homes can't handle a massive panel so they compromised by putting in a woofer. They can sound startlingly good. I would suggest caution here too though because the curved panels have frequency issues and the woofer integration is a very very common complaint - not just by me but a lot of folks - it is detected more on long listening sessions where you hear a lack of cohesion from the panel to the woofer. Every speaker has some compromises and many can live with the ML's issues.

Of course it's moot because of price

[Freewillisdead112]

NO! I ment I was redownloading the music that was Imported at bad levels to hope for a little bit of better sound. I dont care If It sounds like It's coming out of a dogs butt I'm still listening to It. In the type of music I listen to you dont buy the music as maybe $.10 per cd gets to the band. We (I) buy merch which goes right Into the bands pocket and shows I support them! So I am stuck with bad recordings unless I must own the cd.

There Is some cd's I own that sound like they were recorded In a bathroom let me tell ya! But I love um!

I always feel strange going Into a audio store with my music. It makes me feel rude playing my loud "devil" music(sorry had to put that In) with all the nice dressed people looking for good sound.

[RGA]

"I always feel strange going Into a audio store with my music. It makes me feel rude playing my loud "devil" music(sorry had to put that In) with all the nice dressed people looking for good sound."

Hey man you're the customer and and audio system is a machine that plays signals back. It should not care what that music signal is and neither should the shop owners. Unless they're selling equipment that can't reproduce those signals (and many can't) then other than volume issues to protect the speakers you should be able to play anything you like.

It is not a crime to like heavy metal, rock, alternative and it's far better to choose a speaker that YOU like rather than audiophile approved speakers from some old fart who is recommending speakers limited to his Grey Poupon violin solos.

A speaker that can't do reasonable justice to amplified kick drum and bass is probably not doing justice to classical music either. They mistakingly associate bass dynamics and visceral impact with distortion and "box resonance." I'll take a little audible resonance when I get visceral impact, bass, dynamics, and in room pressure of instruments and the ability to play AC/DC and Slipnot or Rage Against the Machine or Tupac to acceptably loud levels with hit you in the chest sound. I also want a system to have a great deal of finess with acoustic instruments and for a piano to have the rich full tone and decay that that instrument possess. I want a speaker and system that can do everything very well.

At $400-$600 you can't. So you choose the speaker that suits MOST of the music you listen to best and that can at least plausibly do the rest acceptably. If you were a solo acoustic low volume listener then the MMG would be my recommendation for that price range - but I suspect that does not make up most of your listening. there is no ONE speaker recommendation at any given price point. If most of your music was louder rock and you didn't mind a bit of bright then the Klipsch Reference 63 which is selling at about half their original price (here in Canada anyway) would be a great choice (and for home theater too). The MMG sounds better with classical but the Reference series IMO sounds better on everything else.

As someone who listenes to a huge variety - perhaps something in the middle of those two would be better - something not quite as good on classical but acceptable and something not quite as good as the Klipsch for rock but acceptable - tough balancing act to find on the cheap.

[Freewillisdead112]

"I always feel strange going Into a audio store with my music. It makes me feel rude playing my loud "devil" music(sorry had to put that In) with all the nice dressed people looking for good sound."

Hey man you're the customer and and audio system is a machine that plays signals back. It should not care what that music signal is and neither should the shop owners. Unless they're selling equipment that can't reproduce those signals (and many can't) then other than volume issues to protect the speakers you should be able to play anything you like.

It is not a crime to like heavy metal, rock, alternative and it's far better to choose a speaker that YOU like rather than audiophile approved speakers from some old fart who is recommending speakers limited to his Grey Poupon violin solos.

A speaker that can't do reasonable justice to amplified kick drum and bass is probably not doing justice to classical music either. They mistakingly associate bass dynamics and visceral impact with distortion and "box resonance." I'll take a little audible resonance when I get visceral impact, bass, dynamics, and in room pressure of instruments and the ability to play AC/DC and Slipnot or Rage Against the Machine or Tupac to acceptably loud levels with hit you in the chest sound. I also want a system to have a great deal of finess with acoustic instruments and for a piano to have the rich full tone and decay that that instrument possess. I want a speaker and system that can do everything very well.

At $400-$600 you can't. So you choose the speaker that suits MOST of the music you listen to best and that can at least plausibly do the rest acceptably. If you were a solo acoustic low volume listener then the MMG would be my recommendation for that price range - but I suspect that does not make up most of your listening. there is no ONE speaker recommendation at any given price point. If most of your music was louder rock and you didn't mind a bit of bright then the Klipsch Reference 63 which is selling at about half their original price (here in Canada anyway) would be a great choice (and for home theater too). The MMG sounds better with classical but the Reference series IMO sounds better on everything else.

As someone who listenes to a huge variety - perhaps something in the middle of those two would be better - something not quite as good on classical but acceptable and something not quite as good as the Klipsch for rock but acceptable - tough balancing act to find on the cheap.

Hahah tupac!

thanks!

If I could find a speaker that sounded as good as my paradigm 5se-mk3's that were just a smidge brighter then I would be a happy camper! They were just to toned down, but had the dynamics I like and want In a speaker. I kinda wish I wouldnt have sold them and would have gotten a super tweeter or something. Made a great hustle out of them though =]

Anyone had that speaker or remember hearing It. As I said before I don't drive so unless I hop on the bus and go downtown I cant hear anything. (My soon to be wife HATES AUDIO!!!)

I have a def tech and paradigm dealer close to me as well as a ML and B&W dealer. The one with def tech has a large amount of used stuff. I cant wait to go over that way and just listen all damn day. I liked the Klipsch reference stuff just It always seemed out of my price range!

The guy I sold my paradigms to got a paradigm sub and a center to match the mk-3's and the atoms for like $400 (he got the massive older powered 12 I think)

[Feanor]

...

At $400-$600 you can't. So you choose the speaker that suits MOST of the music you listen to best and that can at least plausibly do the rest acceptably. If you were a solo acoustic low volume listener then the MMG would be my recommendation for that price range - but I suspect that does not make up most of your listening. there is no ONE speaker recommendation at any given price point. If most of your music was louder rock and you didn't mind a bit of bright then the Klipsch Reference 63 which is selling at about half their original price (here in Canada anyway) would be a great choice (and for home theater too). The MMG sounds better with classical but the Reference series IMO sounds better on everything else.

....

The secret to MMGs for all kinds of music: use a subwoofer for all sound below 80 Hz.

That is, don't use the MMGs full-range; put a high-pass, 80 Hz filter ahead of them and a complementary low-pass, 80 Hz filter ahead of the sub. If you have two subs, try an even higher crossover: 100 or 120 complementary hi- and low-pass filters. (Note that this also permits the MMGs to operate well with a lower powered amp.)

[RGA]

No I have tried the MMG's with subs - adding bass and an inherent lack of dynamics in the MMG is not solved with adding more bass. And integration is poor with magnepan IMO - but as you know I'm not a big fan of sub integration with dynamic speakers - and panels I'm even less impressed. And then the budget also goes way up to the point that a better box speaker can be had. I'd go with the 1.6 with no sub over an MMG with two top flight subs.

[Freewillisdead112]

Don't I have the option to trade them In for better ones If I don't like them?

[Feanor]

No I have tried the MMG's with subs - adding bass and an inherent lack of dynamics in the MMG is not solved with adding more bass. And integration is poor with magnepan IMO - but as you know I'm not a big fan of sub integration with dynamic speakers - and panels I'm even less impressed. And then the budget also goes way up to the point that a better box speaker can be had. I'd go with the 1.6 with no sub over an MMG with two top flight subs.

Oh of course, you'd know better, right? I have use the MMGs this way over several years and can tell you it's effective. In general sub integration is not a big problem if complementary 2nd order or higher crossovers are used. Often "integration" is more problem of sub placement and/or room resonances than of integration per se.

Currently I use the MG 1.6 with a subwoofer and integration is satisfactory. In this case I use the 1.6 full-range. Their 4th order accoustic roll-off at about 45 Hz works decently will with my subs 3rd order 50 Hz low-pass.

[Freewillisdead112]

All this crossover mumbo-jumbo makes no sence. Do I use the one build Into the sub or get an external? Would the mmg's work fine with any quality sub?

My Pioneer Is really scratchy....how do I clean the volume lever? It's a slide style one. I would like to keep It as a preamp when I buy a external amplifier for It's warm sound.

I dont care about bass really at all. I just need to know there is more then ear ripping treable. I like It right smack In the middle.

I had a 8" sub for a little while and It was almost to much bass for my taste.

My 8" woofers on the jbl's were almost to much bass.

I was hoping they would be quality bookshelf without the annoying bass.

Thanks guys

[Feanor]

All this crossover mumbo-jumbo makes no sence. Do I use the one build Into the sub or get an external? Would the mmg's work fine with any quality sub?
...

Thanks guys

Are you familiar with the concept of a crossover? Just askin'

[E-Stat]

My Pioneer Is really scratchy....how do I clean the volume lever? It's a slide style one. I would like to keep It as a preamp when I buy a external amplifier for It's warm sound.
Buy a can of contact cleaner at Radio Shack. Spray it liberally into the sliders and move them while your doing so.


I dont care about bass really at all. I just need to know there is more then ear ripping treable. I like It right smack In the middle.
Then don't worry about subs now. If/when you do, you really should get a pair and use an equalizer on them to tailor the response to the room. Do use some generic 12 gauge speaker wire for the mains though.


I had a 8" sub for a little while and It was almost to much bass for my taste.
What it had was too much mid bass and no real first octave extension. Boom. Just make sure you give the Maggies some breathing room from the back wall.

rw

[Freewillisdead112]

Are you familiar with the concept of a crossover? Just askin'

They control what the speaker can hit hz wise. I used one In a HT receiver I had once so I understand that. But I mean If I am using just a 2 channel setup, how does one crossover something?

I never used a crossover on a sub.

I think I will buy them and see what happends.

why generic 12g? Why not a good name brand? I already use 12g home depot wire!

[Feanor]

They control what the speaker can hit hz wise. I used one In a HT receiver I had once so I understand that. But I mean If I am using just a 2 channel setup, how does one crossover something?

I never used a crossover on a sub.

I think I will buy them and see what happends.

why generic 12g? Why not a good name brand? I already use 12g home depot wire!

Yes, true, crossovers control the distribution of the audio frequency spectrum -- highs from lows, and maybe midrange from both.

Essentially all speakers with two or more drivers have a crossover network built in. The crossover send the highs only to the tweeter and the lows only to the woofer. If there were no crossover the tweeter would be damaged by the bass content which is high energy, and the woofer would be attempting to deliver high frequency which it cannot do, or which it cannot do without a lot of distortion or with sufficiently wide dispersion.

Crossovers can also be built into receivers, especially AV receivers where frequencies will be directed according to the size of the front/center/surround speakers, and the presence or absence of a subwoofer.

Also most all subwoofers have a least a low-pass filter, that is, crossover the eliminates the high frequencies; usually it is adjustable, the typical range being within 40 - 120 Hz. Some subs also have a high-pass filter that can be use to feed only the high frequencies on to the main speakers, either by attaching the speakers to the sub, or via "line-level" outputs that feed the power amp and hence the speakers.

Thus when I had Magneplanar MMGs, I connected my preamp to the line-level inputs of my PSB Subsonic 6. I set the Subsonic's low-pass filter to 80 Hz so the sub itself only reproduced frequencies lower than 80 Hz. The Subsonic also had a high-pass filter set at 80 Hz that fed line-level outputs that went to my power amp and hence the MMGs; thus the MMGs only reproduced frequencies higher than 80 Hz.

[Freewillisdead112]

Is there any decent cheaper subs that have this option???

[JoeE SP9]

Just about all powered subs have a built in low pass filter.

[Freewillisdead112]

good stuff. There Is always jbl paradigm and klipsch subs floating around CL

Are the HSU subs any good?

And are the MMG's bi-ampable??

[JoeE SP9]

good stuff. There Is always jbl paradigm and klipsch subs floating around CL

Are the HSU subs any good?
Yes. Some are very good.



And are the MMG's bi-ampable??
Yes. However, it requires enough skills to bypass or rewire the crossovers. Theoretically any thing that is not a single driver speaker can be bi-amped.

[Freewillisdead112]

Would that even make a difference? The apartment I am looking at has a huge living room with more then enough room to put them in the corners of the room. How far do they need to be from the wall to sound good?

Do they accept bare wire or do they need banana plugs? they looked kinda strange so I was confused!

[JoeE SP9]

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT place MMG's or any speaker in the corners. Placing speakers in corners messes up the bass ruins imaging and causes terminal acne. Seriously, placing speakers in corners will cause you to loose your get out of jail free card.
Most speakers sound their best 2 feet or more from side walls. Some want the wall behind them close others including all panels require 2 feet or more. With panels the side wall distance is not as critical but it's still important.

[Freewillisdead112]

Huh I've had speakers In corners many times. yet the bigger party ones dont count. I will remember that! I will two feet both ways them for sure. I shall know soon when I can get them!

[Mr Peabody]

FWID, what happened? I thought you liked the Mach's. Were your first posts a bit hasty and things not so great after the honeymoon?

If not wanting to snag the Emotiva's, the Wharfdale suggestion is good. A friend has a pair and they are pretty decent for the money. Big bass sound. I'm not sure what model he has.

[JoeE SP9]

Huh I've had speakers In corners many times. yet the bigger party ones dont count. I will remember that! I will two feet both ways them for sure. I shall know soon when I can get them!

Placing speakers in corners makes the bass bloated and "boomy". Almost any other poster will tell you the same thing. The only speakers that go in corners are Klipschorns. Klipschorns have to be placed in corners because they use the walls a part of the horn.
I'm not aware of any other speakers that work properly with corner placement. Sub woofers are not necessarily included in the no corner "thing". There are several web sites that have formula's and instruction for the best placement of speakers. Someone else will probably speak up with a couple of URL's.

[Freewillisdead112]

I dont know If It's my amp clipping or just these speakers sucking. They sounded pretty great when I bought them.....at low levels. When I was able to turn them up and play them with movies my thoughts changed. I think most of what I was saying Is me trying to justify my trade.

I went to a resturant with a whole mirage system the other day and I could'nt finish what I was doing. I was stuck In the song. And they were playing a radio station. I think It was the large nano sats (or what ever the large up firing ones are) with 2 subs In a huge room and It was just amazing. I instantly wanted to steal them!

If I don't mistake myself there quite cheap ay?

Like 250 each or a pair?

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not that familiar with Mirage. I know www.crutchfield.com carry them and allow a 30 day return, although there may be cheaper places. Depends on how much you think customer service is worth. Crutchfield excels in that area but you may sometimes pay a bit more for it.

[RGA]

Oh of course, you'd know better, right? I have use the MMGs this way over several years and can tell you it's effective. In general sub integration is not a big problem if complementary 2nd order or higher crossovers are used. Often "integration" is more problem of sub placement and/or room resonances than of integration per se.

Currently I use the MG 1.6 with a subwoofer and integration is satisfactory. In this case I use the 1.6 full-range. Their 4th order accoustic roll-off at about 45 Hz works decently will with my subs 3rd order 50 Hz low-pass.

Or perhaps some people hear the problems and other people do not - but you would never consider that. Lots of people buy Martin Logan and don't hear a lack of integration and then there are those who do like me and that problem is great enough for those speakers to be crossed off my list. Both Magnepan Dealers where I live who sell numerous quality subs (including Rel) recommend against subs for Magnepan and they sell them. My experience is the same - though granted the dealer has more experience with more subs playing around with them more - but they can't get them to work right after 5 years selling them but hey they must be wrong and so must I. Regardless - the treble and head in a vice quality is more of the issue for me. The only panels I like are the Quad 2905 and the Sound Labs - and they cost a bomb - but perhaps I am being too picky. Count yourself lucky that you get satisfactory results integrating a sub - I have heard probably a hundred sub satellite combinations over the decades and only once have I heard a sub integrate acceptably in any system (and many of these were set up by the manufacturer's engineers - so they should have been "perfect" matches better than any owner could do it) and that one system cost over $30,000 and I still wasn't wowed. Gershman Acoustics X-1 Sub1 combination was pretty good but they're built strictly for the X-1 standmount and the X-1 is a little closed and boxy sounding but integration was/is reasonably good.

But as they say different strokes for different strokes - I am not really impressed with the 1.6 treble band either and lots of folks are quite impressed with them in that region. I find them to be good value at around $2k simply because the competition boxed speakers also have a treble band that doesn't thrill me. I think the more variety of speaker that I have heard over the years has shifted my views.

Consider that in 1995 I lusted after Bryston and Martin Logan and now both of them I would avoid like the plague. The products didn't get worse - in fact they have arguably gotten better but my frame of reference shifted over that time and their advantages while real over what I owned as a stereo back then, are now not advantages and I detect moreof their foibles now. I wonder how many people who have owned a given speaker for 10-25 years have brought home other products and honestly gave them their due on a listening trial?

Ultimately the point of the whole thing is to find sonic nirvana - if you have then recommend and KEEP recommending the combination to people. Lots of people will hear it like you do and lots will hear it like I do. But try to be specific - name the sub(s) and where you cross them over and position etc. I always try and recommend an "audition" of planars and panels just to give people an education on what they sound like - it's important to hear panels.

[jrhymeammo]

FWD112,

Looks like you are getting good recommendation here.
As RGA stated, everyone builds up their "Reference" sound aka preferance.
They are not right or wrong, but if you still around here long enough, you'll get to know the type of sound/music each members prefer.

Here is my impression of Magnepan, incase you are considering the MMG or others:

My listening preference in order: (most favored to least)

Jazz
Hip Hop
Acoustic rock
Small ensemble music (strings)
Electronica
Blues
Large Scale Orchestra
Rap (radio oriented crap)
Rock 'n Roll (Typical FM 103.5 WTYN or whatever...)

Preference on Audio Gear
-Class A Valve amp
-Vinyl
-Low Output Moving Coil cartridges
-High Efficiency Speakers (suites extremely well with the valve amp I own).


I sat behind a piano in full scale orchestra for 4 years in highschool.
Also, played in concert band and marching band for 4 years. Had Scholarship to play Piano in college, but all I wanted to do was argue with the music department so I quiet studying music after 1.5 semesters.
For that, I have more experience sitting behind instruments than sitting in more acoustically favorable positions (audience seating).

I had a pair of Maggies until about a year ago with BAT VK-3i and PS Audio HCA-2. They were very good, but extremey limited to what they can play. Here are my impressions of 1.6QR on above music:

Jazz
-Dreadful:frown5:

Hip Hop -
-Head Nodding turned into head wobbling. I almost felt the same emotion of old glumpy men, raising fists at cars driving by.:hand:

Acoustic rock
- Guitar sounded like $59 K-Mart special. It reminded me of a 30 yr old man still wearing Nirvana Tees who should've sold his guitar 15 years ago.:mad2:

Small ensemble music (strings)
- Unbelievably good at times, but mostly just great.:thumbsup:

Electronica
- I also became a "Firestarter" to my own pair of Maggies. :lol:


Blues
- I don't recall much of my experience.

Large Scale Orchestra
- Mixed feelings for sure. Strings were magnificient, but brass sounded very thin and bright. I've tried different resistors to tame the treble, but all it did was supress the entire treble band. Output level was less, but never changed their sound characteristics. Overall inconsistancy didn't allow me to enjoy the music.

Rap (radio oriented crap)
- No experience. I prefer to avoid this non-sense.

Rock 'n Roll (Typical FM 103.5 WTYN or whatever...)
- No experience. It doesn't excite me anymore. Prehaps 15 years ago, but I was dubbing radio onto cassette tapes, and never once cared for sound quality. I thought the bass boost on my boombox and the Walkman was the shizznit.


I think you'll be better off with conventional box speakers. Have you considered a used NHT? They can be acquired within your price range, and they should provide years of pleasure. Paradigm offer excellent bookshelves too. Most of Dealers can offer Paradigm at discounted price (up to 15%?).

Have Fun,
JRA

[Feanor]

FWD112,

Looks like you are getting good recommendation here.
As RGA stated, everyone builds up their "Reference" sound aka preferance.
They are not right or wrong, but if you still around here long enough, you'll get to know the type of sound/music each members prefer.

Here is my impression of Magnepan, incase you are considering the MMG or others:
...

I think you'll be better off with conventional box speakers. Have you considered a used NHT? They can be acquired within your price range, and they should provide years of pleasure. Paradigm offer excellent bookshelves too. Most of Dealers can offer Paradigm at discounted price (up to 15%?).

Have Fun,
JRA

Free,

JRA might have a point: depending on your listening preference, a speaker other than Mageneplanar might be a better bet for you.

Notwithstanding, what he is saying here is largely humbug. Check out some review links at the Magnepan site (http://www.magnepan.com/product_reviews). A good one is THIS (http://www.magnepan.com/review_MG16_by_Johnathan_Valin) by Johnathan Valin regarding the MG 1.6.

(Can you take seriously a guy who listens to a full-range driver with a whizzer cone? Give me a break. :sleep: )

[JoeE SP9]

JRA, maybe you spent too much time on stage.:idea:

Maggy 1.6Qr's dreadful on Jazz?:yikes: Can't agree on this one.

Can't agree with acoustic rock sounding bad.:hand:

Blues of any type have always sounded good to me on Maggy's.:yesnod:

I can't comment on Rap or Hip Hop.
They are in the same category as most Rock and Roll is for me.
Like you, they just don't really interest me any more or any less.:ihih:

[Freewillisdead112]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.

[jrhymeammo]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.

You, you, you, and you've found out that you loved the sound of Mirage. Anything stopping you to acquire them?
Also, all the DO and DONT.... are you yelling?
I don't understand why you are frustrated?:shocked:

[JoeE SP9]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.
Saying you don't play past 4 out of ten doesn't mean anything. Very efficient speakers with a 50WPC amp could drive you out of the room at that setting. Changing speakers to acoustic suspension type may give whisper level sound at the same settings.
The only way to determine loudness is to measure it with a SPL meter.
SPL: Sound pressure level
Almost any small 2-way speaker will sound good with a sub-woofer. I don't know of any decent wall mount speakers. I certainly wouldn't buy any.
A decent sub-woofer won't boom when adjusted properly. If it is adjusted right the only thing rattling will be stuff in the room that's not nailed down. A sub-woofer thats adjusted right does not sound like the rolling distortion boxes called car stereos.

[jrhymeammo]

(Can take seriously a guy who listens to a full-range driver with a whizzer cone? Give me a break. :sleep: )


WHAT!!!!??? :hand:
Well, I'm glad it's my system & not yours, and I'm sure that's something we can both agree on :yesnod:
Then again I haven't heard your exact setup... have you heard mine or anything similar? Probably ....:nonod:

Com'on my man, you must've been joking or exaggerating... right?
JRA

[jrhymeammo]

JRA, maybe you spent too much time on stage.:idea:

Maggy 1.6Qr's dreadful on Jazz?:yikes: Can't agree on this one.

Can't agree with acoustic rock sounding bad.:hand:

Blues of any type have always sounded good to me on Maggy's.:yesnod:

I can't comment on Rap or Hip Hop.
They are in the same category as most Rock and Roll is for me.
Like you, they just don't really interest me any more or any less.:ihih:

Something might have been wrong in my setup, but I'm 99% confident that I just didn't like the sound of Maggies. It seemed like a good and manageable idea at the time, but
didn't work out. Well enough of this Magnepan arguement cuz I'll just get treated like a second-class citizen.

JRA

[JoeE SP9]

Nah, to get true second class treatment you have to think Bose 901's are SOTA!!!!:cornut:

[RGA]

Something might have been wrong in my setup, but I'm 99% confident that I just didn't like the sound of Maggies. It seemed like a good and manageable idea at the time, but
didn't work out. Well enough of this Magnepan arguement cuz I'll just get treated like a second-class citizen.

JRA

You won't by me. Many of your observations are the same as mine. I have heard them in several locations in several set-ups. I think I like them more than you in fact but I would not buy any of them except the 1.6 which I still contend is one of the best speakers in the $2k price range - but it's got problems - all speakers have problems though and I think the 1.6 has some advantages that a lot of the competitors don't have. But the MMG is just a speaker to get people to upgrade without a comparison. It's great marketing to get people to avoid listening comparisons giving them a huge advantage.

[RGA]

Well this Is just getting frustrating! All I want Is a good speaker! And there Is just so many out there.

I DONT play loud....never past 4 out of 10
I DO like detail
I DO like detailed treable.
I DONT like bass that booms or rattles

I want a wall mount or stand mount small to medium bookshelf speaker.

I really do like the idea of the mirage and a small subwoofer. I loved how they sounded In the place I was.

Since you're all over the map I will suggest a SAFE first entry into this audio hobby with a very good - easy to listen to - better than it has any right to be for the price - under your budget - not boomy - no nasty treble and from one of the oldest names in speaker design and currently run by Quad (one of the best names in speaker design) and that would be - The Wharfedale Diamond 9 series. Nothing flashy - nothing overly exciting - but not in the least irritating.

The Diamond speakers are front ported which will allow them to operate reasonably well in corners or wall mounted. the advice you have gotten about corner loaded speakers previously in this thread is outright fiction. http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Products/ProductSeries/tabid/77/PID/10/language/en-GB/Default.aspx#detail

[JoeE SP9]

Just what about corner loaded speakers is fiction?

The part about K horns requiring corner placement or the part about most speakers sounding bad in corners?

The only thing we agree on is Diamond 9's. They shouldn't be placed in corners either. The front port does make close to the wall placement OK.

[Freewillisdead112]

You, you, you, and you've found out that you loved the sound of Mirage. Anything stopping you to acquire them?
Also, all the DO and DONT.... are you yelling?
I don't understand why you are frustrated?:shocked:

A little! I just want some new speakers!

[Freewillisdead112]

Since you're all over the map I will suggest a SAFE first entry into this audio hobby with a very good - easy to listen to - better than it has any right to be for the price - under your budget - not boomy - no nasty treble and from one of the oldest names in speaker design and currently run by Quad (one of the best names in speaker design) and that would be - The Wharfedale Diamond 9 series. Nothing flashy - nothing overly exciting - but not in the least irritating.

The Diamond speakers are front ported which will allow them to operate reasonably well in corners or wall mounted. the advice you have gotten about corner loaded speakers previously in this thread is outright fiction. http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Products/ProductSeries/tabid/77/PID/10/language/en-GB/Default.aspx#detail

Can I hear these anywhere?

[Freewillisdead112]

I found the 9.0's for 199.99 Is that a normal price?

[Freewillisdead112]

http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/wharfedale-evo2-8-bookshelf.html

these look sweet. Good deal?

[Freewillisdead112]

I found a pair of klipsch kg-1's for 60 bucks. and a pair of KPT-110B for 80.

They both look pretty solid for the price. Theres a whole bunch of things I found

Boston HD-9 with a pioneer receiver for 100 bucks.

[Mr Peabody]

If the Klipsch are in good shape you should snag those. I used to think Boston's were pretty good but I don't think so any more.

[Freewillisdead112]

The bostons are from the 90's and look pretty sweet

the klipsch are both In perfect shape. Im going to try and low ball them out of him!

[bfalls]

I found a pair of klipsch kg-1's for 60 bucks. and a pair of KPT-110B for 80.

They both look pretty solid for the price. Theres a whole bunch of things I found

Boston HD-9 with a pioneer receiver for 100 bucks.

I've had a pair of Kg2, Boston HD8s and have a pair of Kg4s. The Kg series has a very natural sound. I prefer them over the HD8, but they were OK, just a little softer. Klipsch' KSB line is good as well. I had pairs of the KSB2.1 and KSB3.1. I preferred the 2.1 (6.5" woofer) over the 3.1(8" woofers) for their frequency balance. I think you'll enjoy the Klipsch'.

[Freewillisdead112]

well as long as I get rid of the machs I can get um!

[Freewillisdead112]

So I found that the Mach's sound pretty good on 320kbs mp3's. I still am getting clipping from my Integrated amp but I think If I replace It we should be In good shape. No real money spent! Anyone know If I could upgrade the midrange and tweeter In them?

[Mr Peabody]

I'm sure you could pop something in there but the chances of getting drivers that match crossover points, cabinet, sensitivity, impedance etc. to improve your sound are slim to say the least. In addition, they will be hard to sell if at all after being tampered with. You don't have much money invested in them, maybe sit them aside until getting a larger amp then see if you like them better.

[Freewillisdead112]

Good point. I think I am going to grab those klipsch up. I can always throw then In the closet for a little while and see what they sound like later with better stuff.